All things being equal is what should count imo.

To be fair Molon hasn't tested a Superduty and he said he has both.

Being fair is showing the groups when asked, instead of telling so.

I'll try to get some groups up maybe by the weekend. I was going to sights in a Aimpoint on it but I'll throw a Razor and see if I can get a good zero. I believe the dude though.

It's not me the one asking, and it wasn't you being challenged. It's the "My Noveske isn't your Noveske but my Geissele can outshoot it so no, no proof when asked" thing.

But if you're insisting on doing just that as a proxy... Make a separate thread and tag me or IM me a link to see, I like comparison reviews.

They've been doing this for years. Only available on their Super Duty uppers and complete rifles.

I did.

My Geissele is far more accurate than my noveske.

Molon promptly shared a picture of a group obtained with his 16" N4 light.

My noveske is a 12.5" chrome lined CHF barrel.

My GSD is a 14.5" super duty.

My experience is not your experience or molons. I am an average shooter, maybe slightly above average.

Maybe my GSD really liked the PMC green tip. Maybe my noveske didn't like it XM193.

There are a million variables we can discuss but at the end of the day the Geissele shot more accurately.

Both will ping a 200 yard still plate easily.

Well shit. I'm more a fan of gathering parts and doing my own assembling.

Buuuuut, I do have a 700 AAC model that I've been thinking about thinning the safe herd with to possibly fund for.

Far more accurate? Did you test multiple hand loads to come to this conclusion?

If the profile is different then even that makes it difficult to accuracy test one vs the other. I would never compare a pencil barrel vs a hbar for example.

If all you have shot is m193 and green tip then your thoughts on the accuracy between both is meaningless.

You have to be a reloader to *really* test any barrels accuracy.

Pick up one of those 35% off coupons floating around and get you a complete rifle.

Then feel free to ignore my expeirience with Geissele and noveske.

Guess Molon's experience doesn't apply since he's using a bench rest and match rounds and a 16" barrel compared to my 12.5".



Nice gate keeping, by the way.

I just finished the entire thread.  Molon is right.  Not because he is Molon.  Not because of his huge and useful body of work he shares with us.  Not because of his scientific and data driven approach to testing and his use of excellent methodology.

He is right because the problem is real, visibly real.  When a manufacturer, any manufacturer, suddenly changes the physical appearance of a high end product, in part marketed for its appearance, we as consumers ought to share our concerns with each other, not just the manufacturer.

I'm sure Molon has or will contact Geissele about the cosmetic and tactile changes.  I hope someone from Geissele joins this discussion.  I love Geissele triggers.  Own and use them, but am no fanboy for them or anyone else.

Sharing here is appropriate for several reasons:

First, it's important to know if the issue is "one off" and just a single product that somehow made its way through quality control.  If there are multiple complaints, forums like ours tend to reveal them.  

Second, public sharing in a knowledgeable enthusiast group can incentivize a manufacturer to address quality control and fix it.  

Third, public sharing in a group like ours does provide meaningful feedback to the OP, either calling out someone who is factually wrong, exaggerating, or just a chronic complainer of trivial matters, or recognizing the OP is onto something that deserves attention.  Were this an Anderson product (no disrespect meant - I actually like their stripped lowers where aesthetics don't matter), I'd feel different.  Here we are discussing a change in appearance and tactile feel of a high end product.  It merits the six pages.

Fourth, consumers talk with their dollars and not just their words.  Reduced sales is a strong incentive for correcting a problem.  When a member and contributor not known for misinformation or exaggeration, regardless of identity, is bluntly critical of a manufacturer and produces supporting evidence, and the manufacturer is aware the forum is discussing it, the manufacturer risks significant financial loss if the problem is not responsibly addressed and fixed.

Executive summary:  Molon is right to complain here in this tech forum.  This high end expensive rail looks like shit and is not worthy of having Geissele's name on it.  Will Geissele fix their anodizing process or its QC, if its not the process?

Then feel free to ignore my expeirience with Geissele and noveske.

Guess Molon's experience doesn't apply since he's using a bench rest and match rounds and a 16" barrel compared to my 12.5".



Nice gate keeping, by the way.

Just drop it on the opposite side to bend it back?

That would be a solid group without that flyer.

Go to your room Billy.  And just wait until I talk to that Uncle of yours.

...

There you go again expecting basic fundamentals on this site……………………..

You have no evidence that your noveske is less accurate than your geisselle and or vice versa and your loadings you used to describing a "way more accurate barrel" would and should get you thrown out of any discussion. Your opinion has less credible evidence than molons chalky rail sample size of 1.

I actually shot and own a geissele rifle.

Molon doesn't. Do you?

As I stated, my noveske isn't as accurate as my Geissele. That's based off my own experience shooting the two.

You made a claim and then proceeded to explain the circumstances of your "accuracy test" using words like "usually mil-spec ammo" had some match ammo one time, and won't post results.

I have tested my fair share of barrels and I don't have a dog in this fight, but claiming one high end manufacturer smoked another high end manufacturer and then proceeding to undermine our confidence in your opinion with the admission that you usually shoot m193 and xm855 makes everyone pause.

You haven't truly tested either barrel and you should admit that your thoughts on the relative accuracy of a or b cannot be backed up with any evidence. Then you doubled down.



That barrel took multuple loadings to test and many hours of load development to truly see what it could do.

We get it, you like G but show us how it smokes your novekse.

Nice group.

Please post a link to one of your pre-existing reviews where you checked straightness, barrel nut thread dimensions, Picatinny and Mlol slots in spec or not, so I can see how it's done.

...

How many AR-15s have you assembled with Geissele handguards?  This will be my 5th one.  On all four of the previous handguards the barrel nut could be pulled out with your hand.  Bill Geissele himself has said that these rails have a .001" clearance around the barrel nut.  That's a slip-fit.

...

I never said any such thing.  I said the anodizing on my BCM handguards is better than the anodizing on this current Geissele handguard.

...

Good for you.  Their customer service was dog shit the last time I had to deal with them.


....

I stopped counting the number of personally owned assemblies that I've done when it got over 50.  Here's what AR-15s that I've assembled can do.

10-shot group at 100 yards . . .




How about you post a pre-existing link to what an AR-15 that you've assembled can do.

....

I have Chalky kac stuff and see Chinese junk with beautiful anodizing so I truly am perplexed with anodizing.

Don't buy any geissele stuff or recommend them if you think they are junk but I think a review of a SD would probably be pretty popular here.

I might just do that with this handguard

...

Wow that's incredible!

What software do you use to measure your groups?

I need to start doing that.

That group was measured using OnTarget

Do one on your own then, and compare.

You've hit a super nerve.

Having done some small time anodizing, that looks like improper/inadequate post-anodize sealing.

No properly anodized/sealed item should discolor like that by simple handling (clean hands of course).

I have 3 cheap (sub $90) black handguards, and a few brands of low-cost upper/lower receivers that suffer no such effects.

Would Geissele sell a complete rifle with that handguard?  The answer should be definitive.

I don't bench unless I'm sighting in something and don't have all that cool stuff.

I'm surprised the super duty guns are that good is all. I don't personally like the new gfr or whatever because that's geared more for a Molon type of shooter but I assume they have the barrel formula down. I'd rather of seen those upgrades on the actual *Super Duty models.

I'm just baffled by the hate and I don't see many complaints outside of finish on the actual guns.

Maybe you should then, because it's the second time you've asked him to, meaning you're very much interested yourself. You should scratch that itch yourself really at this point.

You and I have two different definitions of a complaint, which is all I'm seeing and no hate, yet what you're only seeing is hate and have asked him twice to review it despite the fact that he's now not going to. I'm a bit perplexed at that as well to be honest.

Get back to me when you've contributed just half as much data to this website as I have.


Molon Reference Links


Observations On The Effect Of Parallax Error When Shooting With an Aimpoint Comp M5, a Trjicon MRO and an Aimpoint T2

Federal 62 Grain Trophy Bonded Tip


Return Of The M193 Clones


Reloading For The AR-15:  Molon’s Accuracy Node Detection Technique


Bravo Company 14.5” ELW Accuracy: A Quick Look


Hodge Defense 14.5” Barrel Accuracy: A Quick Look


Colt M4A1 SOCOM Barrel Accuracy:  Another Look


Colt AR-15 20” A2 Barrel Accuracy


Observations on the Accuracy of a 20” Lothar Walther AR-15 Barrel


A Visual Library of AR-15 Barrel Profiles


MEN 56 Grain M193 Accuracy




.....


AR-15 Zeros and Trajectories

RIBZ - - Revised Improved Battlesight Zero



The AR-15 Accuracy and Precision Series

The Essentials of an Accurate AR-15

Accuracy versus Precision

A Primer on the Mean Radius

"Match Grade"


The Internet Commando's Nephew

The Texas Sharpshooter

The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups

An Accuracy Comparison of Three Different Barrel/Ammunition Combinations

Observations on the Points of Impact of Statistically Significant Shot-Group Sizes

Reproducibility (With IMI M193)



AR-15 Barrel Break-In

"Quarter" Minute of Angle

Observations On The Velocities Obtained From A Direct Impingement Gas System AR-15
Compared To A “Single Shot” AR-15

55 Grain Bullets Fired From AR-15s with 1:7" Twist Barrels

An Accuracy Comparison of M855 When Fired From AR-15s With 1:7" Twist and 1:9" Twist Barrels

Observations on the Accuracy of a 20" Lothar Walther AR-15 Barrel

Krieger Barrel Sub-1/10th-MOA Accuracy Guarantee

Colt M4A1 Barrel

Accuracy Evaluation of a Colt 16" Light-weight Barrel

Accuracy Evaluation of a Noveske 18" SPR Barrel

Accuracy Evaluation of a Noveske 16" N4 Light Barrel

Competing With The Past:  Accuracy Evaluation of a Colt A1 Barrel

Accuracy Evaluation of a Bravo Company 14.5" Barrel

Accuracy Evaluations of 14.5" AR-15 Barrels From Colt, Noveske and More . . .

A Tale of a 20" Colt A2 Barrel

Colt AR6721 10-Step Transformation

16" barrel Profiles and Weights



A Visual Libray of Colt Forge Marks (and other identifiers)



Gas Port Erosion of AR-15 Barrels

AR-15 Gas Ports:  Krieger versus Ballistic Advantage

Rifling in AR-15 Barrels:  Hand Lapped Barrel versus Budget Barrel

5.56mm NATO versus 223 Remington:  Chamber Differences

Warning!  Receiver Roll Mark

Ares Defense GSR-35:  Gas Piston Retrofit Range Report

Colt Front Sight Post Primer

0 - 2:  A2 Rear Sight Aperture



Optic Observations:  1 - 4X Variable Scopes

Precision Shooting With An Aimpoint:  Range Report

Head-Shots With Red Dots

The Affects of Phoria When Using the Trijicon ACOG as an Occluded-Eye Gun-Sight

A.R.M.S. #41 Gas Block/Flip-Up Front Sight

Knight's Armament Micro-Aimpoint Mount

Aimpoint T1 with LaRue LT660HK Mount

Aimpoint 50 Yard Zeroing Targe

Marksman's Challange

"That's a nice group from the bench.  Now let's see you hit a grapefruit at 50 yards offhand."

Flake Powder vs Ball Powder vs Extruded Powder

Federal 69 Grain Gold Medal Match:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Barnes Precsion Match:  5.56x45mm 85 grain OTM BT

SnapShots 2016:  Mini Range Reports

Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot "ICE"

Range Report:  Speer LE 75 Grain Gold Dot

Range Report:  Australian Outback 69 grain Sierra MatchKing

Range Report:  Hornady 5.56mm 75 grain TAP SBR

Range Report:  GECO 223 Remington 55 Grain FMJ Target

Range Report:  GECO 5.56x45mm 55 Grain FMJ

Federal 62 grain Fusion versus Federal 62 grain Fusion MSR versus Speer LE 62 grain Gold Dot

XM875: New 5.56mm Armor Piercing Ammunition

Nosler 77 Grain Custum Competition:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Winchester 5.56mm RA556B:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Winchester 5.56mm FBI Training Ammunition

MK318 Mod 0: Range Reports

Observations on an Atypical Lot of Federal LE223T3



Attack of the (M193) Clones

ASYM Precision Ammunition 75 Grain OTM Tactical

Hornady 5.56mm 62 Grain TAP Barrier:  Range Report



Range Report:  Hornady 5.56mm 55 Grain TAP Barrier

Range Report:  Hornady 5.56mm 70 Grain GMX TAP Barrier

Hornady 5.56 TAP T2, TAP FPD, 223 TAP LE, 223 Match (Heavy OTM Thread)

A Visual Comparison of the Precision of Various 5.56mm Loads

The Wolf of Truth

Range Report:  Black Hills MK262 Mod 1

Range Report:  Black Hills 5.56mm 50 Grain TSX

Range Report:  Black Hills 5.56mm 77 grain Tipped MatchKing

Range Report:  Wolf Gold 55 Grain FMJ

Black Hills 75 Grain Match HP Ammunition:  Blue Box versus Red Box

Observations on the Barnes TSX Bullets

Range Report:  Nosler Defense 223 Remington 64 Grain BSB

Range Report:  PMC 5.56mm 62 Grain X-TAC

Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Performance

Prvi Partizan 223 Remington 75 Grain Match Ammunition:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Sneak Preview:  Hornady Superformance Ammunition

Hornady 75 Grain 5.56mm Superformance:  Update.

Wolf Ammunition Sub-Half-MOA Accuracy Guarantee

Hornady 6.8mm SPC 110 grain TAP versus 110 grain V-MAX

....

Federal 9mm Luger 147 Grain HST:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Federal 9mm Luger (+)P 124 Grain HST:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics

Range Report:  Speer 9mm Luger 147 Grain Sold Dot G2

Range Report:  GECO 9mm Luger 124 Grain Hexagon

Range Report:  Nosler Defense 9mm Luger (+)P 124 Grain Bonded Tipped

Chronograph Data for 9mm LE Loads  (Part 1)

The 9mm Parabellum at 50 Yards

A Few Observations on the Heckler & Koch VP9

Apex Grade Barrel for the S&W M&P9:  A Quick Look

Range Report:  Smith & Wesson M&P9 Pro Series C.O.R.E.

.....

Recoil

Dillon Super Swage

Swift 75 Grain and 62 Grain Scirocco II

Weights of Lapua, Winchester and Lake City Brass in 5.56mm/223 Remington

Disregarding "accuracy" comparisons when the ammo used can't be guaranteed to turn in a 2 MOA group isn't gatekeeping.

I did 14 or 15 last year.  All but a couple were MK14s

Easily 50 in the last ten years.

I’ve sent back a couple of triggers and needed a barrel nut one time and they were great.

Maybe it’s you

You won’t find pics, but a lot of the ARs I assemble and work on shoot at people.

That rail does not look good, but my recent MK16 looks great. Attached File

So you haven't assembled any AR-15s that shoot more accurately than the AR-15s that I've assembled.  Thanks for clearing that up.

...

In this thread, we measure dicks groups

good stuff, now don't let this thread get the ax

Yeah man I’m sure you tighten up a barrel nut way better than your average arfcommer can.  

Send to SOTAR?

I've had alg rails which the nut slides out of easily. This last one was at least 2-3 ten thousandths press fit. Probably more.

eta: missed the ten in my statement about measurement. Biiiig difference.

That's funny you mention commercial. I read an article and G said they don't differentiate between contract and civilian items.

https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/geissele-super-modular-rails-overview/

"I want to stress that we’re never making a batch extra special because we know it’s going to end up overseas with soldiers or because it’s going into the hands of law enforcement"

Geissele doesn't make the USASOC URG-I. They only made the rail and charging handle.

Geissele made URG-Is that people buy are "clones".

True. I was just referring to the rail being the same no matter where it originated from, that is if Geissele was being truthful.