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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:10:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who wants to bet there's video |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:17:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still trying to figure out the mentality that thinks its funny or cool to put a full auto in a kid's hands, or a .500 in the hands of a Columbian woman, of the local redneck snickering as he gives his girlfriend a .44 Mag. I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:32:14 PM EDT
[#3]
I can't believe that he let her take one shot on semi before he turned her loose on a full mag on auto.
I let my little kids shoot machine guns but the first time they shoot more than one round on semi and then they'll get a mag with 3 rounds in it to get a feel of what auto is like. I do the same thing with girls that don't shoot guns. No way I'm giving someone that has no idea what to expect and possibly not enough strength or control a full mag to dump wherever they end up dumping it. I really can't believe he did that. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:32:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Still trying to figure out the mentality that thinks its funny or cool to put a full auto in a kid's hands, or a .500 in the hands of a Columbian woman, of the local redneck snickering as he gives his girlfriend a .44 Mag. I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. http://bearingarms.com/negligent-suicide-with-a-500-smith-wesson-revolver/ |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:33:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Knew it Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Who wants to bet there's video There is... |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:49:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Yup, as soon as I saw mini-Uzi I knew what was going to happen. I fired a lot of mini-Uzi when I worked at Vector Arms a few years ago. Even then I was very cautious with one; not a gun for a novice to pick up and mag dump. Saw a few experienced shooters put rounds well off target. Hope the young lady will be OK after this.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 6:53:36 PM EDT
[#7]
Recent event here in MN featured a MG shooting station. They had the common sense to tether the barrel to the bench each time a gun was fired. Makes you feel like you're riding a bad ass bike on training wheels... but no one got killed.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:00:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Recent event here in MN featured a MG shooting station. They had the common sense to tether the barrel to the bench each time a gun was fired. Makes you feel like you're riding a bad ass bike on training wheels... but no one got killed. I was just wondering if anyone ever did that |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:02:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Micro / Mini SMG in an inexperienced shooters hands.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:06:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Certified NRA and USPSA RO, here. I disagree with most of your post. If the shooter is brand new, the RO stands in such a way that he is able to immediately control the firearm/person. Typically, the elbow of the firing hand will be the control point. You can keep them from turning left or right. You are to pay attention to the person firing at ALL times in which they have a hot firearm and be ready to correct any dangerous movement. You don't look down range to watch hits. You don't talk to other shooters or ROs. You pay attention to your responsibility. Only after hours of practice and the shooter has demonstrated that they are safe under different circumstances and distractions do I stand more than an arm's length away. Quote HistoryQuoted: <tree pruned> Certified NRA and USPSA RO, here. I disagree with most of your post. If the shooter is brand new, the RO stands in such a way that he is able to immediately control the firearm/person. Typically, the elbow of the firing hand will be the control point. You can keep them from turning left or right. You are to pay attention to the person firing at ALL times in which they have a hot firearm and be ready to correct any dangerous movement. You don't look down range to watch hits. You don't talk to other shooters or ROs. You pay attention to your responsibility. Only after hours of practice and the shooter has demonstrated that they are safe under different circumstances and distractions do I stand more than an arm's length away. All the shooter positional coaching should have been done with an unloaded firearm or a dummy, and a magazine with 1 round used several times. Once the shooter is comfortable (and the instructor), move up to 2 etc. I'd bet this was a pay for a full mag on a MG kind of thing, not an actual class.  ETA: video shows the instructor having a hand on the shooters back (to keep her from being pushed back?), and a hand on the mag bottom (helping support the weight?), leaving nothing to control the muzzle... |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:16:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry my edit didn't help. Not much more I can do for you.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me repost this for the hotheads: Inept instructor. Nine year old girl. Gun. Ammunition. What could go wrong? something wrong with kids shooting?  Sorry my edit didn't help. Not much more I can do for you. Do you just have to take a shit in everyone's living room? Do you serve any real purpose on this site, other than to be an unwanted tick, sucking the blood from others to make it from day to day? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:29:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Terrible
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:36:28 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm not sure why they lets kids shoot small MG's. Just not smart.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:56:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Sad the kid is scarred for life, but she could have easily been the one to take the bullet to the head, at least shes alive. I haven't seen this discussed, but I think the major problem with inexperienced shooters is, out of panic or instinctual reaction, they clamp down on the grip with their whole hand of the gun in an attempt to maintain control, this causes them to mash the trigger down, rather than releasing the trigger (kind of like driving and hitting ice, instinct is to slam the brakes... WRONG move). Even with a semi auto, I never trust a new shooter with more than 1 round in a mag for several shots with ANY new gun that isnt 22lr, then we upgrade to 3-5 rounds a mag. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 7:59:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even with a semi auto, I never trust a new shooter with more than 1 round in a mag for several shots with ANY new gun that isnt 22lr, then we upgrade to 3-5 rounds a mag. Yep. I do the same. Seen way too many doubles under recoil. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 8:03:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't believe that he let her take one shot on semi before he turned her loose on a full mag on auto. You underestimate stupidity. Ridgerunner, though, thinks it's good shit. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 8:04:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Tragic for all involved...regardless of who was at fault.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 8:13:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just before the video ends you can see the Uzi fly out of her hands, so sad.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 8:21:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just before the video ends you can see the Uzi fly out of her hands, so sad. The way that guy was standing was like it was designed to not be able to prevent anything. Not that you could do much but get your hand shot off trying to control that SMG from the side. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 9:20:28 PM EDT
[#20]
I've run mini MG shoots for small groups before with an Uzi and an MP5, but the Uzi was a full size, with a Gemtech on it...so there was very little muzzle rise and the cyclical was slow enough even for new shooters to easily double tap.
A micro Uzi in the hands of a 9 year old is going to end badly no matter what you do. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 9:33:39 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm a full-grown man and I'd probably have trouble controlling a F/A Mini-Uzi. I hope that little girl recovers from this trauma .
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Posted: 8/26/2014 9:36:00 PM EDT
[#22]
30 years ago I was handed a full auto UZI at a garbage dump and nearly shot the fingers off my left hand.
Drunk Las Vegas PD detective who owned it hadn't told me that it was full auto and laughed like hell when the shots started going moonward 3 shots into the burst. I still remember the 1/3 full tumbler of bourbon he kept on his dashboard at all times during that deer hunt
ETA: Jesus, just watched the vid. What a terrible fucking smear these vids/events are against gun ownership. That poor girl. That poor dumbass RO.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 9:46:54 PM EDT
[#23]
I have no full autos but I always stand to right and behind a new shooter mostly so I can grab their arm if they start to point the muzzle it the wrong way. Shit deal all around feel bad for both of them
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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:00:35 PM EDT
[#24]
On the video it appears to be a Mini Uzi based on there being a small foregrip and the profile of the rear of the receiver.
I guess it could be worse, if it was a Micro and they probably both would have been dead based on the 30% greater cyclic rate and how much rotational recoil Micro's can have with virtually no weight up front. The Massachusetts boy who shot himself a couple years back at a shoot was shooting a Micro, which is basically on par with shooting a M11/9 in stock form.; I generally shy away from letting inexperienced shooters handle anything open bolt as you don't know if they have the common sense to hold on for the ride should a run-a-way happen and safely put all the rounds in the berm. Always have visions in my head of a novice shooter having a run-a-way and turning around or dropping the gun not knowing what to do. I am all for getting kids out and shooting and even let kids shoot machineguns (once they show they know what the are doing and can handle it) In this particular case it appears that the girl (based on her apparent novice mechanics/stance) should have been learning to shoot a single cricket 22LR. Handing a 9 year old girl who appears to have very little in the way of firearm experience a full auto Mini Uzi with a fully loaded mag is just a tragedy waiting to happen. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:29:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Certified NRA and USPSA RO, here. If the shooter is brand new, the RO stands in such a way that he is able to immediately control the firearm/person. Typically, the elbow of the firing hand will be the control point. You can keep them from turning left or right. You are to pay attention to the person firing at ALL times in which they have a hot firearm and be ready to correct any dangerous movement. You don't look down range to watch hits. You don't talk to other shooters or ROs. You pay attention to your responsibility. Only after hours of practice and the shooter has demonstrated that they are safe under different circumstances and distractions do I stand more than an arm's length away. And if we could just get 100% compliance of these protocol across the board, I'm sure we would have a 0% rate of ROs getting shot in the head by the person they are supposed to be watching. It really is a sad story. Our human nature makes it easy for us to become complacent, and maybe loose focus for a split second. Just long enough for tragedy to strike. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:42:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Just found this liveleak vid!
From reading about the youtube vid on pg two its probably the same! http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=376_1409096283 |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 10:56:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever been in the range with a new shooter? Before you know it they can turn around and are suddenly sweeping everyone with the muzzle. If their finger is still on the trigger, a round can be discharged and into someone before people even have time to process what is happening. Handling guns is an inherently dangerous activity because it only takes a split second for things to go from fun to fatal. There is no way an RO can account for what a new shooter may do on the range. At best, you lay out guidelines that you hope the new shooter will remember during live fire. I used to take dental students to the range, always 1 on 1, unless they had experience. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:14:38 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever been in the range with a new shooter? Before you know it they can turn around and are suddenly sweeping everyone with the muzzle. If their finger is still on the trigger, a round can be discharged and into someone before people even have time to process what is happening. Handling guns is an inherently dangerous activity because it only takes a split second for things to go from fun to fatal. There is no way an RO can account for what a new shooter may do on the range. At best, you lay out guidelines that you hope the new shooter will remember during live fire. Yes. Lots, probably a hundred or so. We do not even touch a weapon until we discuss rules (at least four of them). Then I hover like a 250 pound hummingbird ready to tackle their ass if they inadvertently or purposely start to turn around on the firing line. Of course I've been doing it this way for a long time. I've lived a long time, and expect to go on living even longer. You are correct that I cannot predict what a new shooter will do on a range, that is why I watch them like unto a hawk. I do not take my eyes off of them until the weapon is safe. We only deal with one weapon at a time. I only deal with one new shooter at a time. There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:25:45 AM EDT
[#29]
At least the girl didn't die.
Giving a child a full auto micro-Uzi, 500 S&W or similar gun, without hours of instruction and experience with other firearms, is criminally negligent. No different than kicking them out of an airplane solo-skydiving without prior experience. In this case it sounds like the source of criminal stupidity paid the bulk of the price, as it should be. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:17:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At least the girl didn't die. Giving a child a full auto micro-Uzi, 500 S&W or similar gun, without hours of instruction and experience with other firearms, is criminally negligent. No different than kicking them out of an airplane solo-skydiving without prior experience. In this case it sounds like the source of criminal stupidity paid the bulk of the price, as it should be. IIRC, the guy involved in the fatal Uzi incident up in New England (where the little boy died) was charged. I don't remember the outcome. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:56:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nine year old girl. Gun. Ammunition. What could go wrong? Shit I'd already shot thousands of squirrels by the time I was nine. 
Seriously though, at 9 with PROPER INSTRUCTION/GUIDANCE it shouldn't be a problem. Letting her loose with a FA mini uzi was real dumb. Never want to see anyone killed, especially a vet, but poor judgement
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:28:24 AM EDT
[#32]
This incident makes me so angry.
 I'm all for teaching kids how to shoot and be comfortable around guns, but this was just stupid and it cost that idiot his life. Now the kid is scarred for life and the gun grabbers are saying "look at those silly, irresponsible gun nuts!" |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:45:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Poor girl
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:14:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Inept instructor.
9 year old inexperienced girl. Mini Uzi. Full magazine. Full auto. What could go wrong? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:26:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Not every kid is ok to to shoot at 9 or at any age. Took my relative (son of in-laws) out to shoot BB guns. After a lengthy safety orientation, I handed him an unloaded BB gun which he immediately pointed it at me. End of lesson.
Many years later after issues in school, he was diagnosed with OCD, which when diagnosed as a mental illness, is not what you think it is. It is a compulsion (he cannot control it no matter how much he wants to, it is like being possessed, and yes it can run in families, note that I said in-laws) to do horrible, violent things. He is now home schooled, medicated, and I do not forsee him taking up shooting as a hobby. If he does, I will not be the instructor. The funny thing is his mom, who I had always seen as an incredibly successful career woman in a man's job, had this mentality of if I want it, I take it. Subject to the typical raging that we often blame on being female. I can sort of see where the kid gets it, but obviously she was able to channel it into something that worked for her. Such a fine line between crazy and crazy like a fox. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:59:10 AM EDT
[#36]
The girl only put one round into the berm in full auto. It was already out of her left hand, first shot. She was not ready to be shooting a F/A Mini/Micro Uzi. Not even close.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:06:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it was a boy who killed himself with a micro uzi. important difference... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wasn't it a micro full auto that killed that boy a bit ago? No, it was a boy who killed himself with a micro uzi. important difference... 14er 
A fucking 8 year old boy doesn't have the cognitive ability to fucking know not to fucking shoot a micro fucking uzi. And you come on here and spout off that he killed himself. Shit like this load of horse shit really fucking pisses me off. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:06:27 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Still trying to figure out the mentality that thinks its funny or cool to put a full auto in a kid's hands, or a .500 in the hands of a Columbian woman, of the local redneck snickering as he gives his girlfriend a .44 Mag. I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. They have. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:08:38 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You underestimate stupidity. Ridgerunner, though, thinks it's good shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't believe that he let her take one shot on semi before he turned her loose on a full mag on auto. You underestimate stupidity. Ridgerunner, though, thinks it's good shit. You know what you just made yourself look like to the peanut gallery? I do. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:10:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Heard about this earlier today. Saw the story and a partial video. Just watched the video that shows just as she is shooting the rounds leading up to the fatal shot.
In one report, there was another instructor explaining how they are supposed to stand to prevent the gun from getting away. This instructor was standing in such a way. I think where the problem is, is as he is telling her to fire the burst, she begins before he finishes saying it. Thus, it appears he was actually caught off guard, not expecting the shots to begin before he finished his command. Yes, we would all think that he should have been prepared at all moments, but think about it. We have all been surprised by someone doing something before they were supposed to do it. Have you ever been to a shooting class and had the instructor say "At the ready, Aim..." and someone shoots before the "Begin" command? It is unexpected and can be startling. Yes, he should have expected it anyways, and that is why we should never be so comfortable that people will wait, that we are surprised when they don't. Lone Eagle |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:10:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And if we could just get 100% compliance of these protocol across the board, I'm sure we would have a 0% rate of ROs getting shot in the head by the person they are supposed to be watching. It really is a sad story. Our human nature makes it easy for us to become complacent, and maybe loose focus for a split second. Just long enough for tragedy to strike. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Certified NRA and USPSA RO, here. If the shooter is brand new, the RO stands in such a way that he is able to immediately control the firearm/person. Typically, the elbow of the firing hand will be the control point. You can keep them from turning left or right. You are to pay attention to the person firing at ALL times in which they have a hot firearm and be ready to correct any dangerous movement. You don't look down range to watch hits. You don't talk to other shooters or ROs. You pay attention to your responsibility. Only after hours of practice and the shooter has demonstrated that they are safe under different circumstances and distractions do I stand more than an arm's length away. And if we could just get 100% compliance of these protocol across the board, I'm sure we would have a 0% rate of ROs getting shot in the head by the person they are supposed to be watching. It really is a sad story. Our human nature makes it easy for us to become complacent, and maybe loose focus for a split second. Just long enough for tragedy to strike. There is no amount of safety protocols that override handing a totally inappropriate firearm to a novice. ETA: He didn't lose focus at all. Even for a split second. He was just doing everything else wrong, including letting a person shoot a firearm they were nowhere near ready for. I'm assuming the family was not gun people and were trusting the "expert" and his judgment. After seeing the video I feel horrible for that little girl. I can't imagine she'll get over this anytime soon. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:17:56 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nine year old girl. Gun. Ammunition. What could go wrong? My son was shooting Camp Perry @ 9 years old |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:25:53 AM EDT
[#43]
Who
What When Where Why How Do they even teach that in journalism school anymore? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:28:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Inept instructor. 9 year old inexperienced girl. Mini Uzi. Full magazine. Full auto. What could go wrong? Sometimes I think we are our own worst enemy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:45:50 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Still trying to figure out the mentality that thinks its funny or cool to put a full auto in a kid's hands, or a .500 in the hands of a Columbian woman, of the local redneck snickering as he gives his girlfriend a .44 Mag. I'm suprised no one died from the 500 doubles yet. Several have. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:50:32 AM EDT
[#46]
With all respect to the dead, he didn't know how to train a novice. Same thing happened a few years back when an instructor let some boy have an uzi. The uzi killed the boy when its muzzle cllimbed and pointed at his head.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:55:58 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. I do the same. Seen way too many doubles under recoil. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even with a semi auto, I never trust a new shooter with more than 1 round in a mag for several shots with ANY new gun that isnt 22lr, then we upgrade to 3-5 rounds a mag. Yep. I do the same. Seen way too many doubles under recoil. Not a Certified Instructor myself but I have introduced many to shooting and seen a few new shooters simply drop the gun after the first shot (even had it happen with .22LR). So, yeah, for new shooters we work with single rounds until we are both confident with moving on. Honestly, for a 9yo, a bolt-action .22LR rifle is plenty of firearm for them to be building skills and developing a proper mindset with. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:13:33 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Heard about this earlier today. Saw the story and a partial video. Just watched the video that shows just as she is shooting the rounds leading up to the fatal shot. In one report, there was another instructor explaining how they are supposed to stand to prevent the gun from getting away. This instructor was standing in such a way. I think where the problem is, is as he is telling her to fire the burst, she begins before he finishes saying it. Thus, it appears he was actually caught off guard, not expecting the shots to begin before he finished his command. Yes, we would all think that he should have been prepared at all moments, but think about it. We have all been surprised by someone doing something before they were supposed to do it. Have you ever been to a shooting class and had the instructor say "At the ready, Aim..." and someone shoots before the "Begin" command? It is unexpected and can be startling. Yes, he should have expected it anyways, and that is why we should never be so comfortable that people will wait, that we are surprised when they don't. Lone Eagle That's why the commands need to be spelled out. "When I tell you to, do x. Do NOT do it until I tell you to, ok?" My BIL and I took his 8yo son out shooting with a semi .22. What does BIL do? Loads up the 10rd magazine, racks it and gives it the kid standing up, then tells the kid to lay down. Three rounds went off before the kid ever got on target. The correct procedure would have been to have his son go prone first, then give him the empty guy, the load the gun safety on, then remind him of safety rules and aiming, then take safety off. The mag should have had 1-2 rounds. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:14:55 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no amount of safety protocols that override handing a totally inappropriate firearm to a novice. ETA: He didn't lose focus at all. Even for a split second. He was just doing everything else wrong, including letting a person shoot a firearm they were nowhere near ready for. I'm assuming the family was not gun people and were trusting the "expert" and his judgment. After seeing the video I feel horrible for that little girl. I can't imagine she'll get over this anytime soon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Certified NRA and USPSA RO, here. If the shooter is brand new, the RO stands in such a way that he is able to immediately control the firearm/person. Typically, the elbow of the firing hand will be the control point. You can keep them from turning left or right. You are to pay attention to the person firing at ALL times in which they have a hot firearm and be ready to correct any dangerous movement. You don't look down range to watch hits. You don't talk to other shooters or ROs. You pay attention to your responsibility. Only after hours of practice and the shooter has demonstrated that they are safe under different circumstances and distractions do I stand more than an arm's length away. And if we could just get 100% compliance of these protocol across the board, I'm sure we would have a 0% rate of ROs getting shot in the head by the person they are supposed to be watching. It really is a sad story. Our human nature makes it easy for us to become complacent, and maybe loose focus for a split second. Just long enough for tragedy to strike. There is no amount of safety protocols that override handing a totally inappropriate firearm to a novice. ETA: He didn't lose focus at all. Even for a split second. He was just doing everything else wrong, including letting a person shoot a firearm they were nowhere near ready for. I'm assuming the family was not gun people and were trusting the "expert" and his judgment. After seeing the video I feel horrible for that little girl. I can't imagine she'll get over this anytime soon. Totally agree. Now we have a dead vet and instructor, and three new antis, most likely. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:16:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not every kid is ok to to shoot at 9 or at any age. Took my relative (son of in-laws) out to shoot BB guns. After a lengthy safety orientation, I handed him an unloaded BB gun which he immediately pointed it at me. End of lesson. *snip* Had the same thing happen to me when I tried to introduce a friend's kid to shooting many years ago. I tried again a few years later but finally realized that he didn't have a healthy interest in guns, he was only interested in a means with which to cause harm  He is 18yo now and on probation until 21 for being criminally stupid.
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