User Panel
Posted: 4/26/2015 6:36:30 PM EDT
did a drop test today:
3 x 30 round Brownells Usgi mags with magpul followers, fully loaded. Three 30 round gen m3 pmags, fully loaded. Dropped each mag from a feed lips down position to impact on the feed lips, from 5 feet onto concrete, three times each. The Brownells had their feed lips bent terribly. One of the three, I could only unload 9 rounds by hand, the feed lips were so deformed the rounds couldn't be pushed out. The second of the three, I was totally unable to push any rounds out at all. The third mag let me push all thirty rounds out but it was very difficult. None of them Could be reloaded by hand or by stripper clips. All three of the magpuls I tested developed serious cracks after the drops, the shortest being 1.5 cm long, and the longe being 5cm. By the third drop, they were spitting out 6-8 rounds each. After testing, I was able To easily unload and reload each of the PMAGS. So while damaged, it's likely they would still function at least long enough until the patrol or your shift would be over. Bottom line: dropping mags onto very surfaces will fuck up your mag, whether USGI or PMAG. |
|
Quoted:
did a drop test today: 3 x 30 round Brownells Usgi mags with magpul followers, fully loaded. Three 30 round gen m3 pmags, fully loaded. Dropped each mag from a feed lips down position to impact on the feed lips, from 5 feet onto concrete, three times each. The Brownells had their feed lips bent terribly. One of the three, I could only unload 9 rounds by hand, the feed lips were so deformed the rounds couldn't be pushed out. The second of the three, I was totally unable to push any rounds out at all. The third mag let me push all thirty rounds out but it was very difficult. None of them Could be reloaded by hand or by stripper clips. All three of the magpuls I tested developed serious cracks after the drops, the shortest being 1.5 cm long, and the longe being 5cm. By the third drop, they were spitting out 6-8 rounds each. After testing, I was able To easily unload and reload each of the PMAGS. So while damaged, it's likely they would still function at least long enough until the patrol or your shift would be over. Bottom line: dropping mags onto very surfaces will fuck up your mag, whether USGI and PMAG. View Quote That's a great test and matches what we see all the time in our testing. I would love for you to try the same test with our mags. I am confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. |
|
Quoted:
That's a great test and matches what we see all the time in our testing. I would love for you to try the same test with our mags. I am confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
did a drop test today: 3 x 30 round Brownells Usgi mags with magpul followers, fully loaded. Three 30 round gen m3 pmags, fully loaded. Dropped each mag from a feed lips down position to impact on the feed lips, from 5 feet onto concrete, three times each. The Brownells had their feed lips bent terribly. One of the three, I could only unload 9 rounds by hand, the feed lips were so deformed the rounds couldn't be pushed out. The second of the three, I was totally unable to push any rounds out at all. The third mag let me push all thirty rounds out but it was very difficult. None of them Could be reloaded by hand or by stripper clips. All three of the magpuls I tested developed serious cracks after the drops, the shortest being 1.5 cm long, and the longe being 5cm. By the third drop, they were spitting out 6-8 rounds each. After testing, I was able To easily unload and reload each of the PMAGS. So while damaged, it's likely they would still function at least long enough until the patrol or your shift would be over. Bottom line: dropping mags onto very surfaces will fuck up your mag, whether USGI and PMAG. That's a great test and matches what we see all the time in our testing. I would love for you to try the same test with our mags. I am confident that you will be pleasantly surprised. Donate for testing? |
|
|
I have about 100 pmags, and only one, a foliage green one, is out of its package because it matches my AR and looks cool in pictures. I use USGI mags exclusively for all my shooting. I figure if I drop one and bend a feed lip, I might be able to use my multitool to make it serviceable again. Can't do that with a cracked plastic feed lip. Pmags for the neckbeard stash, USGI mags for actual use.
|
|
I have pretty good luck not dropping loaded mags feed lip first onto concrete.
Apparently in other locales it's an epidemic. |
|
|
Quoted:
I have pretty good luck not dropping loaded mags feed lip first onto concrete. Apparently in other locales it's an epidemic. View Quote Right? I've fumbled some reloads over the years, never destroyed a mag doing it. I've gone to monopod prone pretty enthusiastically quite a few times too, never damaged a mag doing that either. I appreciate tough gear, but it's not hard to figure out how to take reasonable care of your shit. |
|
Agreed. I put ranger plates on my Usgi to prevent bottom damage.
|
|
Man, I've been shooting ARs and AKs since the 1980s, including 6 years in the Marine Corps, and I have never intentionally or unintentionally abused my gear like these guys do...
I don't get why some people expect a ten dollar piece of gear to be flawless and indestructible... I have no intention or expectation of ever being in a situation where my stuff gets abused this badly... 1DD |
|
|
|
You should've done some Googling before you screwed up your mags.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826_.html&page=1 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feeding+your+AR%3A+AR+mags%3A+is+there+a+best%3F+The+magazine+has+been...-a0212762057 |
|
|
Quoted:
You should've done some Googling before you screwed up your mags. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826_.html&page=1 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feeding+your+AR%3A+AR+mags%3A+is+there+a+best%3F+The+magazine+has+been...-a0212762057 View Quote Really great links. thank you! |
|
Quoted:
I don't get why some people expect a ten dollar piece of gear to be flawless and indestructible... View Quote Because manufacturers and their loyal fans post over and over and over how good a certain product is year after year and attack any statement to the contrary. I totally get why people would think they are unbreakable. |
|
Quoted:
I am more than happy to send you a mag to beat the hell out of. Shoot me an IM with your info and I will get a mag on the way to you. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Send me a couple and I happily will :) I am more than happy to send you a mag to beat the hell out of. Shoot me an IM with your info and I will get a mag on the way to you. You make some nice looking mags. May have to buy one or two to test out. |
|
5' or 6' drops generally are not an issue, but depending on what exactly impacts first, you may indeed see some cracking with a perfect impact or with multiple drops. As mentioned many times before, we have a very specific design philosophy on this, and what you get with a GEN 3 PMAG is a magazine which passes all TOP 3-2-045 rough handling criteria from -60 to +180 and FEEDS after the drops as reliably as before, even if damage occurs, plus works in dust, hot, cold, wet, with M855A1, Mk318, Mk262 and all other DODICs. Reliability and especially reliability after rough handling is the key to a magazine that works when you need it to. With the millions of PMAGs in military combat service around the globe, even of the GEN M2 previous generation, this has proven itself. Bottom line for a magazine is it is a feeding device, not a bludgeoning device. We've got hundreds and hundreds of thousands of rounds in the GEN M3 testing and development program, and so do others. Feeding reliability over the long haul, in less than optimal conditions, and after rough handling, is the key. Run what you want, different options may be a better fit from what you want from a magazine, but keeping the gun running is our goal. We've posted this before, but this is why a PMAG does what it does:
Magazine Design Philosophy, Testing, and Performance of Magpul Industries PMAG Magazines for the AR/M4/M16/HK416/M249 Building feeding devices for firearms is not a new endeavor, and many materials and methods of construction have been employed for this task. For many years, conventional wisdom regarding magazine construction was that metal was the material most suited to the task. Although other polymer magazines were attempted previously (Orlite, et. al.), the Magpul PMAG became the first generally accepted all-polymer magazine for AR-pattern rifles after its release in 2007. Early military testing drew some criticisms with performance at sub-arctic temperatures and with window material chemical resistance (In the MagLevel window variant). Rumors, assumptions, and outright incorrect information from this early testing and initial evaluations still persist, despite 7 years of materials, manufacturing, and design improvements to the PMAG product line, and millions of fielded magazines in continuous combat use in the GWOT. Current and ongoing testing, both internal and through third parties can easily and thoroughly dispel these rumors and assumptions from any early data. What follows is an explanation of what the PMAG “is”, why it is made the way it is, and why these characteristics provide significant, concrete advantages for professional use of the PMAG over other feeding devices. The “Job” of a Magazine In essence, the purpose of a firearm magazine is to present a cartridge at an ideal, or at least acceptable, orientation with respect to the chamber, at a defined range of acceptable amounts of resistance to being pushed forward by the bolt, and must be fed upward at a defined range of speeds depending on cyclic rate, within a tolerance range. That range of acceptable geometries and pressures can vary somewhat among rifles. The biggest challenge is maintaining consistency in those variables. If the cartridge is presented the same way, under the same forces, within those windows that are acceptable to the host weapon, every time...you'll have zero magazine related failures. Various geometries and design features aid that end. Specifics regarding our designs and geometry that may not be immediately apparent are part of our body of trade secrets, although many features can be seen in our patents and applications. Other things, like constant curve geometry, lacking in the USGI solution, are visibly obvious. Constant curve geometry allows maximum round stack stability and consistent follower contact until the magazine enters the magazine well, where some straightening of the stack must occur due to limitations of the AR-pattern magazine well, which was originally designed for straight magazines. The 30-round USGI “dogleg” geometry creates round stack instability/lack of support and attendant issues “around the bend” of follower travel. Not all “constant curve” geometries are the same—how the round stack is supported as it makes the transition to the mag well up to the feed lips, and how the follower supports that transition varies across magazines claiming constant curve geometry. This, and other small nuances in many other details of magazine construction all affect reliability. Through internal testing and the body of external testing that we are aware of, the PMAG GEN M3 has been reliable to an extent that far exceeds any other product or solution. Verification of this claim through additional independent testing is encouraged and welcome. The number one concern in magazine selection has to be reliable function of the weapon system across likely environments and situations. We’ve expended hundreds of thousands of rounds in internal testing, unilaterally as well as side by side with current service tan follower USGI magazines and products from other manufacturers. In both sterile, laboratory environments and under adverse environmental conditions of cold, heat, water, mil-spec dust, etc., we greatly exceed the performance of other options with all ammunition types tested. Almost without exception, interruptions of the firing cycle from firearms in our testing using the GEN M3 PMAG, over the entire body of testing in AR pattern platforms, have been directly attributable to component failure of the firearm (sheared bolt lugs, etc.) or primers which failed to ignite after a positive firing pin impact. Total stoppages for all reasons, including the bad primers and weapons component failure, are in or near single digits per 50k rounds in our testing and the external testing that we are aware of. This kind of absolute reliability, under all conditions, with both AR-based and non AR, but AR magazine compatible platforms (FN SCAR, etc.) has been the goal of the PMAG product since day one, and the GEN M3 product line comes as close to this goal as we are currently capable of measuring. It’s easy to build a brick of plastic, metal, or any combination thereof that fits into a magazine well and will withstand great abuse. Building an extremely durable magazine with the best feeding reliability possible is another achievement entirely, and one we take great pride in. Materials Different materials have different properties, obviously, and they are variably suited to these tasks. We’ve spent a great deal of time testing and examining vast numbers of material, manufacturing, and processing options, both pure and hybrid, and this is the understanding that we have arrived at, which drives our direction. If a material is too soft, it embeds grit too easily, which affects the upward feeding of the follower and round stack and friction for stripping the round. It will also most likely be malleable, and change feeding geometry through deformation in a drop on the lips...or the side wall. Not a crack...but a bend, and possibly an insidious one that will affect feeding, but not be immediately visible. Soft materials also tend to have problems maintaining shape under stress, (such as the pressure of a magazine spring). Polymers that are quite malleable at room temperature and resist cracking, however, tend to fail horribly at temperature extremes, whether hot or cold. Softer, more flexible polymers also usually exhibit creep, especially in feed lips and potentially in the body itself. This allows feeding geometry to change over time, especially at high temperatures. Metals resist embedded material, but overall friction with common materials and finishes is generally higher than the RIGHT polymer. (Cyclic rates on the same firearm can be measurably higher with a PMAG than a metal magazine, although PMAGs keep up with bolt speeds associated with cyclic rates over 1100 rounds per minute.) Reduced friction allows the cartridge to feed with less required energy in the bolt carrier, which aids function in adverse conditions. If a material is too hard, it will shatter. Polymers and even hardened metals, when completely rigid enough to resist any and all deformation, will become fragile. You'll have 100% consistency in geometry, a resistance to embedded grit, and a resistance to deformation, but this material will fail under rough handling. So, we need a balance of properties within acceptable parameters in all measures, coupled with correct geometry and design features. The last factor we look at, that is the core of our design philosophy, is "resiliency". This is a "spring" effect, or a desire to return to a rested state/form. Same concept in polymer as in metals, except it’s controlled through composition, reinforcement, and processing rather than hardening/heat treating. Resilient materials tend to perform well across temperature spectrums. After all our testing, a PMAG is what it is as a very specific balance of these properties. A magazine must be rigid/hard enough to maintain feed geometry without deformation and resist problems from embedded grit. It must be ductile or tough enough to prevent shattering under impacts, yet it must be resilient enough to return to the exact same feed geometry without deformation if an impact is hard enough to deflect the material. A choice has to be made, in all cases, over whether it is better to deform or yield at various temperatures and forces, based on limitations of the material. Metal bends, or it breaks, and either option likely changes your feed geometry, at least with all currently used materials, whether the metal in question is the entire magazine or a component part of hybrid construction. The PMAG is designed to have the necessary rigidity while maintaining resiliency and durability across temperature spectrums. This gives us great grit performance, consistent feed geometry, and an impressive resistance to any deformation that would cause a magazine to cause or allow a stoppage. There are many other factors in the design, but we are talking purely material properties here. So...can a PMAG crack? Absolutely, if you try hard enough, with enough force, a crack may appear. Through internal and external testing of the GEN M3 PMAG, this requires impacts or repeated impacts beyond current TOP 03-02-045 testing for firearms systems that we are aware of. It may indeed crack in some extreme cases--however, the forces and impacts required to crack a GEN M3 PMAG meet or exceed those that will deform aluminum/steel feed lips or body material, generally to an extent that will cause enough deformation of the metal to change feed geometry/performance and increase stoppages significantly, if not render the magazine non-functional. The PMAG however is RESILIENT. If it absorbs an impact that will deform other magazines, or even if it does crack, it returns to its exact same orientation and geometry it started with, and certain GEN M3 design features make any damage to or breakage of the feed lips themselves extremely unlikely. We deliberate destroy PMAGS and then test their ability to maintain reliable feeding when cracked or split. A more ductile magazine feed lip material that deforms or bends rather than maintaining resilient form may not crack...but it will likely introduce both simple and complex stoppages into the firing sequence of any firearm into which it is used. Softer, more impact “forgiving” polymer body and feed lip materials have trouble maintaining geometry of feed lips as well as bulging from round stack pressure, creating additional variables. The PMAG is resilient and returns to a set geometry when deflected. Rather than allow deformation that can result in a magazine that may not feed, we would rather accept a crack and a magazine that runs than a softer or more ductile magazine that allows deformation and stoppages. So...material selection is always a trade off of sorts, although different materials perform better over wider spectrums of environmental conditions. A PMAG does what it does based on the full spectrum of performance parameters, and our efforts to optimize across that spectrum. The material we use also achieves those parameters with additional goals of chemical resistance and long term stability, including DEET and all other military standard chemical tests. PMAG body, follower, and floorplate materials are completely DEET impervious. Early transparent window material, used in our MagLevel window, showed some susceptibility to DEET, however current window material easily exceeds 24 hour immersion standards in both 40% and 100% DEET concentrations. Humidity, or lack thereof, at both saturated and dessicated moisture levels, are also tested. Construction After testing hundreds upon hundreds of material combinations in numerous colors, hybrid construction options, and various reinforcement methods, the PMAG GEN M3 is an all polymer, monolithic body of very specific composition, reinforcement, manufacturing techniques, and design, because that is what has worked best out of all the other combinations tried. We continually test new materials, colors, and construction methods, however, in an ongoing attempt to improve in any way we can. An all polymer design gives us the resiliency desired in feeding geometry as well as in side walls and general durability. Going prone or falling on a metal magazine body or feed lips can dent the sidewall in a manner that restricts round stack or follower travel, essentially destroying that magazine’s ability to function. Changes in feed lip geometry, as mentioned above, can also occur. Spot welds can also yield, destroying the body integrity of metal magazines or reinforcements. The GEN M3 PMAG is designed and tested to withstand much greater impacts of this nature than competing designs without allowing damage to the internal round stack or follower which would impede function. All-polymer, monolithic construction also prevents any possibility of separation of components required in hybrid construction methods or failure of welds in stamped metal products, and provides significant cost and complexity savings over hybrid construction methods as an additional benefit. Feed Lip Stability Over Time There is a common misconception that the dust/impact cover supplied with most PMAG products is in some way required to prevent feed lip creep or spread over time. This is not the case. When initially loaded, the PMAG GEN M3, and all PMAGs in the current lineup, exhibit a tiny normalization of feed lip geometry within a very small window of time measured in days, and then this geometry then remains stable over many years, heat cycles, cooling cycles, and outdoor UV and weather exposure. We routinely load magazines and place them into stable indoor, hot, cold, and outdoor exposure storage to monitor various batches of material. These magazines are occasionally function tested and reloaded with no issues. As implied by the name, the dust and impact cover is indeed designed to keep debris out of magazines during storage, and to provide an extra measure of feed lip protection for magazines in storage, such as stuffed in an ammo can in a tactical vehicle used in off road operations, or for aerial delivery, kicking containers of loaded mags off of moving vehicles, and the like. This ensures that magazines that may normally be out of sight, not maintained, or subjected to delivery handling that is many, many times the normal testing and usage criteria will perform flawlessly after a quick flick to remove the cover. Testing These Criteria Absolute reliability can be tested according to relatively established protocols and fixture firing. Testing rough handling, drop, and impact characteristics from full weapon or magazine drops or abuse, when considering the true purpose of such testing, has to include firing and not merely visual inspection. Although incredibly resistant to damage, due to the aforementioned resilience quality, the PMAG GEN M3 is designed and manufactured to function correctly even if damage occurs. Part of our internal testing protocol is to damage magazines through extreme rough handling and fixtures designed for the purpose, and then evaluate function. If a PMAG retains rounds, and even if it is deliberately split enough to not retain rounds, but is forcibly held together long enough to be loaded and inserted into the mag well, it will feed. We routinely endurance test individual PMAGs to 200 times loaded capacity. So, an individual 30 round 5.56 magazine must survive 6,000 rounds in a single rifle with no cleaning but routine lubrication. Magazines are completely serviceable after this testing. Additional testing protocols test two magazines to 3600 rounds each with numerous magazine swaps and field firing orientations for usability, catch durability, and “magazine monopod” performance evaluations. We have Thermotrons for cold-soaking to -60F and heating to +180F for drop and function testing. We fixture and trigger release our drops onto polished concrete for repeatable impacts to evaluate all axes of drop testing, dropping the same magazine up to 16 times to test durability at room temperature and at extremes. We do multi-axis full weapon drops at room temperature, -60F, and +180F. We do function testing on these magazines after the drops. Field testing evaluations with internal and external assets are used to evaluate the human interface and product usability in actual usage conditions in real and simulated scenarios. We have large bodies of user feedback from real and simulated combat environments. All magazine products are 100% guaged for dimensional accuracy. Although the processed and manufacturing techniques we use provide for extremely small tolerances, we still hand inspect each and every magazine multiple times before shipping. All this is mentioned not for self-congratulations, but merely to emphasize that we take the quality of our products very seriously, as we know that a military member, law enforcement officer, or private Citizen may rely on the performance of our products in life-threatening situations. Full test protocols for non-proprietary internal testing are available. Service Life and Deadline Criteria As mentioned previously under endurance testing, PMAG service life is extensive, providing performance over high round counts and significant abuse. Numerous first-hand accounts of the same complement of PMAGs being used on 3, 4, or more combat tours and workups in-between have come in from end users. Although service life is long, all magazines are consumables at some point. With a PMAG, if it is not cracked, or broken, it is serviceable. If there is a visible crack, even if the magazine functions, it is time to replace it. Even with significant cracking, however, the PMAG will continue to function as designed until it is split far enough that it cannot retain rounds, as the feeding geometry does not, and cannot change without destroying the magazine. Unlike with USGI or other metal or metal-lipped magazines, it is impossible to have a magazine with damaged feed lips that does not function properly, but appears to be serviceable. PMAGs eliminate the large box of magazines in every armory that appear OK, but create stoppages and have been marked by users and turned in, only to be re-issued in hopes the next user won’t notice. Having a positive deadline criteria saves time, resources, and frustration on the range, and is safer for combat troops. Cost This increased performance, features, and all the benefits come at a price that can be entirely competitive with existing USGI aluminum magazines. Features and Improvements The GEN M3 PMAG is fully compatible and tested with all currently fielded AR-Pattern rifles including the M16, M4, Mk18, SPR/Mk12 variants, and other rifles of this lower receiver geometry, as well as weapons featuring the SA-80/HK416/IAR magazine well, and the M249 SAW. All platforms are tested unsuppressed and suppressed. The GEN M3 PMAG features a slimmer profile and floor plate design than previous generations of PMAG, with improved texture for a positive grip under wet, muddy, cold, or other adverse conditions, and a paint pen dot matrix for easy marking and tracking. This slimmer profile fits better in magazine pouches for greater usability. The GEN M3 PMAG Features an over-travel insertion stop, which prevents over-insertion of the magazine under stress or vigorous open-bolt reloads, as well as providing an extra measure of durability for weapon functionality after loaded weapon drops or when using the magazine as a monopod. The GEN M3 PMAG features a four-way anti tilt follower with generous dust and grit clearances for performance in adverse conditions, and water drain features for over-the-beach performance. The new material, manufacturing, and design create a reinforced mag catch area, tested to thousands of removal and insertion cycles for positive magazine retention. It is quite literally possible to hang from a PMAG inserted into a magazine well with no negative effects or failure. The MagLevel Window System provides visual indication of remaining rounds in the magazine, and is visible under NVD aid in darkness. Unlike translucent or transparent magazine designs which cease giving useful information after the follower enters the magazine well, the MagLevel system provides round count at a glance down to the last remaining round. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently shipped in Black and Sand for better IR significance performance without paint. The GEN M3 PMAG is easily disassembled for end user cleaning and maintenance, and is specifically designed to be impossible to reassemble incorrectly. The GEN M3 PMAG is currently available in standard, 30 round capacity with and without MagLevel Windows, as well as 10, 20, and 40 round capacities. All stated capacities are true capacities…there is no need to download magazines for reliability concerns or ease of closed-bolt insertion. |
|
Quoted:
Man, I've been shooting ARs and AKs since the 1980s, including 6 years in the Marine Corps, and I have never intentionally or unintentionally abused my gear like these guys do... I don't get why some people expect a ten dollar piece of gear to be flawless and indestructible... I have no intention or expectation of ever being in a situation where my stuff gets abused this badly... 1DD View Quote Completely agree. I don't expect them to be indestructible. I fully understand it's a piece of metal, subject to laws of physics. This is an absolute worst case scenario, like something catastrophic like falling down a cliff, having mags spill out of your rig and bounce around. Likely - no, not likely. Possible? Yes, theoretically. I also understand that abuse of mags is the main cause of failure, which is why I put ranger or L plates on all my mags. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
You should've done some Googling before you screwed up your mags. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826_.html&page=1 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feeding+your+AR%3A+AR+mags%3A+is+there+a+best%3F+The+magazine+has+been...-a0212762057 Really great links. thank you! Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. |
|
Quoted:
Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You should've done some Googling before you screwed up your mags. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/468826_.html&page=1 http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Feeding+your+AR%3A+AR+mags%3A+is+there+a+best%3F+The+magazine+has+been...-a0212762057 Really great links. thank you! Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. Good points, Magpul. Thanks for adding to the discussion. I have not tested them for firing functionality, and actually, that makes sense to do so. I'm gonna hit the range tonight with the three jacked up USGIs and the three cracked Pmags (one 40, two 30's, both M3) and check for reliability. |
|
And, if the increased performance in drop testing is something that anyone feels is needed over the conventional black GEN M3, the Sand material GEN M3 survives multiple feed lip drops at -60, a pile at room temp, and a LOT at elevated temps, and none of the other characteristics are compromised, so you get the same flawless reliability in dust, grit, heat, cold, water, M855A1 projectiles, etc. It also costs the same, and it can be easily dyed in camouflage patterns or the color of your choosing.
|
|
Yes, the Sand material is actually stronger in impact resistance testing, so feed lip drops and the like. It's easy to make a mag that doesn't crack at all--not so easy to make one that doesn't crack, doesn't embed grit, maintains feed geometry at high temps and after abuse, drops free at all temps, doesn't jumble the round stack after drops, and feeds with flawless reliability with every common ammo type. We've been working on this formulation for a while, and there is an appreciable increase in strength across the 5.56 magazine line without giving up anything to the black for reliability and other characteristics. You'll likely see it in 7.62 and AK mags, as well.
|
|
Quoted:
Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. View Quote The fairly recent test done by one of the forum members here had basically the same exact results..... Even though the SGN test is five years old, I'll bet anything the current Lancer magazine is just as unbreakable. |
|
Quoted:
The fairly recent test done by one of the forum members here had basically the same exact results..... Even though the SGN test is five years old, I'll bet anything the current Lancer magazine is just as unbreakable. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. The fairly recent test done by one of the forum members here had basically the same exact results..... Even though the SGN test is five years old, I'll bet anything the current Lancer magazine is just as unbreakable. I think you are missing the point. The mission of the PMag is to reliability feed ammunition in all environments. The fact that it is robust is a just secondary benefit. |
|
Quoted:
Yes we hate that too. This is why we post clearly defined testing using high speed video to verify impact, use factory USGI magazines as a control and live fire auto test the results. https://youtu.be/jQxYXTYohPI?list=PLLLtq9scclwKVYVSGUsrOsprdHo_TKJt7 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't get why some people expect a ten dollar piece of gear to be flawless and indestructible... Because manufacturers and their loyal fans post over and over and over how good a certain product is year after year and attack any statement to the contrary. I totally get why people would think they are unbreakable. Yes we hate that too. This is why we post clearly defined testing using high speed video to verify impact, use factory USGI magazines as a control and live fire auto test the results. https://youtu.be/jQxYXTYohPI?list=PLLLtq9scclwKVYVSGUsrOsprdHo_TKJt7 Well done sir~ |
|
Quoted:
I am more than happy to send you a mag to beat the hell out of. Shoot me an IM with your info and I will get a mag on the way to you. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Send me a couple and I happily will :) I am more than happy to send you a mag to beat the hell out of. Shoot me an IM with your info and I will get a mag on the way to you. Do you know of any LE departments using issuing your magazines?. We utilize mostly GI and P-Mags, but test others for possible use as well. Thanks G.G. |
|
Kind of reminds me of a story my Dad mentioned from back when he was working for a petrochem company, and doing materials development work. They were working on some of the first generation rubber/plastic garbage cans, instead of the classic bent sheet metal style trash cans. The technical service department got a call from an irate customer, who was very disappointed that his product failed. Good stuff! Going to learn something new: they were excited to have a customer calling who experienced a failure, so they could learn of something to improve. So they asked what happened. Turns out, customer had taken this new indestructible material trashcan up to the top of a multi-story building, filled it with water, pushed it off. He was very disappointed that the indestructible material failed.
|
|
Quoted:
Do you know of any LE departments using issuing your magazines?. We utilize mostly GI and P-Mags, but test others for possible use as well. Thanks G.G. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Send me a couple and I happily will :) I am more than happy to send you a mag to beat the hell out of. Shoot me an IM with your info and I will get a mag on the way to you. Do you know of any LE departments using issuing your magazines?. We utilize mostly GI and P-Mags, but test others for possible use as well. Thanks G.G. Yes, there are a couple in MO, FL, and LA county is testing them right now. |
|
Quoted:
I think you are missing the point. The mission of the PMag is to reliability feed ammunition in all environments. The fact that it is robust is a just secondary benefit. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Except for the fact that the Shotgun News link is about five years old and none of the magazines tested are still being produced. The fairly recent test done by one of the forum members here had basically the same exact results..... Even though the SGN test is five years old, I'll bet anything the current Lancer magazine is just as unbreakable. I think you are missing the point. The mission of the PMag is to reliability feed ammunition in all environments. The fact that it is robust is a just secondary benefit. Perhaps I am. Assuming basic function to be equal I think a magazine that is tougher than a USGI mag is an accomplishment (I don't think anyone will disagree with this) In the same vein I think a magazine that is unbreakable, not only tougher and more robust but unbreakable, like a Lancer magazine is a better and more significant accomplishment. Is my logic flawed? |
|
Quoted:
Because manufacturers and their loyal fans post over and over and over how good a certain product is year after year and attack any statement to the contrary. I totally get why people would think they are unbreakable. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't get why some people expect a ten dollar piece of gear to be flawless and indestructible... Because manufacturers and their loyal fans post over and over and over how good a certain product is year after year and attack any statement to the contrary. I totally get why people would think they are unbreakable. Yep. Hell, I still have Thermolds from the ban ol' days, and they've never failed me. According to the Hive, they should be spitting rounds out everywhere, and should be falling apart and melting. Do I treat them rough? Not really. Shoot, if it's bad enough for a mag to be damaged, I'm probably too preoccupied to care and will just grab another mag and drive on. |
|
I don't think PMAGS are as bomb-proof as The Hive Mind seems to think. On drop tests, fully loaded from shoulder height, 3/5 of the Gen M3s developed splits on the spine on the first drop. Those same three developed cracks of about 1.5 inch long each on the second drop. Those three were unable to hold more than 20 rounds each - they did fire just fine. However, the USGIs had no issues.
Bottom line, to me, is that all mags are damaged by drops. To me, it's wash whether to use a USGI tan follower with ranger plate or a pmag, for about the same price. When you take into account how the pmags were damaged you would need to add a ranger plate to them to protect them, which would widen the price gap. Doesn't seem worth the extra $ to me. |
|
Dropping mags is a Derp move (we all accidentally do it ).
Don't drop your mags! If you do and you damage a mag, punch yourself in the junk as a penalty. |
|
Lol agree. My tests, the ones conducted by WI57, Fortier via SGN, and numerous others have shown that PMAGS crack on spines when dropped. Considering I can buy Brownells Usgi with MP followers and ranger plates to protect the bases for $12.99, Pmags start to lose their appeal. Especially considering you'd need to add a $4.99 ranger plate to each PMAG to reduce spine splitting from drops. I don't plan on running my magazines over.
Magpul can post all the test videos they want but I've seen one MAJOR flaw in ALL their videos: they never show you a closeup of the feed lips or the spines after drops. Probably because cracks formed. |
|
Cracks or no cracks the Pmag continued to function while the aluminum magazine failed immediately.
Function is better than failure. I poster prior I had Thermold / Canadian military mags that a few split on the weld seam in extreme cold weather use. All the mags still functioned then and years later and the split increased in length initially but stopped at some point. The mags would swell out when loaded to capacity and it was harder to insert into the gun and would not drop free when fully loaded but ran fine in its select fire host. Its good to have a mix of magazine no matter what the material or brand. The Pmag is great for what it as and the price point. Now if Brownells can get their AR10 mags to market.... |
|
|
|
|
Quoted:
And, if the increased performance in drop testing is something that anyone feels is needed over the conventional black GEN M3, the Sand material GEN M3 survives multiple feed lip drops at -60, a pile at room temp, and a LOT at elevated temps, and none of the other characteristics are compromised, so you get the same flawless reliability in dust, grit, heat, cold, water, M855A1 projectiles, etc. It also costs the same, and it can be easily dyed in camouflage patterns or the color of your choosing. View Quote Hi, Although I'm not really interested, my son will be thrilled by this news. Regards: |
|
ETS group sent me a free mag to test out. I dropped it 5 times, loaded with 30 IMI M193, onto the feed lips from shoulder height, no damage. Then the same to the bottom, no damage. Then run over with my car 3 times, no issues.
Seems like a very solid mag. Haven't done fire testing yet, that will be on thursday. |
|
Quoted:
ETS group sent me a free mag to test out. I dropped it 5 times, loaded with 30 IMI M193, onto the feed lips from shoulder height, no damage. Then the same to the bottom, no damage. Then run over with my car 3 times, no issues. Seems like a very solid mag. Haven't done fire testing yet, that will be on thursday. View Quote Awesome. We are confident that we have the most durable magazine on the market for the AR and we are more than happy to prove it. Thanks for taking the time to test it. |
|
I am unable to get it to seat on a closed bolt with 30 rounds, but works like a charm with 29.
|
|
|
|
Quoted:
You must have 31 rounds it it. It will hold 31 and won't seat on a closed bolt with 31. With 30 rounds the top round should be on the left side. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I am unable to get it to seat on a closed bolt with 30 rounds, but works like a charm with 29. You must have 31 rounds it it. It will hold 31 and won't seat on a closed bolt with 31. With 30 rounds the top round should be on the left side. Yep, I'm a newb....31 the whole time lol. Just emptied, refilled to 30, and no problems seating. To me this represents a serious increase in serviceability/utility over USGI, and yes, even over PMAG: no downloading needed, no spine or feedlip cracking with rough handling. Seems to be GTG. I have a lancer coming in the mail this week, so I'll be comparing this vs Lancer as well. |
|
Quoted:
Yep, I'm a newb....31 the whole time lol. Just emptied, refilled to 30, and no problems seating. To me this represents a serious increase in serviceability/utility over USGI, and yes, even over PMAG: no downloading needed, no spine or feedlip cracking with rough handling. Seems to be GTG. I have a lancer coming in the mail this week, so I'll be comparing this vs Lancer as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I am unable to get it to seat on a closed bolt with 30 rounds, but works like a charm with 29. You must have 31 rounds it it. It will hold 31 and won't seat on a closed bolt with 31. With 30 rounds the top round should be on the left side. Yep, I'm a newb....31 the whole time lol. Just emptied, refilled to 30, and no problems seating. To me this represents a serious increase in serviceability/utility over USGI, and yes, even over PMAG: no downloading needed, no spine or feedlip cracking with rough handling. Seems to be GTG. I have a lancer coming in the mail this week, so I'll be comparing this vs Lancer as well. Great. Lancer makes a very good mag, but be careful when you run it over, they don't like that so much... |
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.