The AR15 PISTOL INFORMATION THREAD !!! - Page 8

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The AR15 PISTOL INFORMATION THREAD !!! (Page 8 of 20)

armax Joined Jul 2003 Posts 341 EE 0% (0) USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 7:41:01 PM EDT [#1] question: What's the buffer tube length difference between the bushy and the model 1? in other words, which will allow a shorter overall length?

BadgerArms

Joined May 2002
Posts 283
EE 100% (48)

AK, USA

Posted: 2/4/2005 7:53:10 PM EDT

[#2]

AFAIK, they are identical in length but the Model 1 Sales unit is heavier and lacks any sort of buffer material. If you don't understand how the buffer works, it uses shot which smacks the rear of the buffer when the carrier reaches the end of its travel delaying sligthly the forward motion of the carrier and spreading out the peak in the recoil impulse at that point. It does the same thing on the forward stroke but in this case, it is buffering the 'bounce' of the bolt carrier as it closes. "Bounce" is the rebounding of the bolt carrier as it flies forward and strikes the metalic surface at the end of its travel. As it begins to bounce, the shot strikes the front of the buffer and threfore stops the bounce dead in its tracks ensuring the carrier is forward to allow the firing pin to strike the primer solidly when you pull the trigger.

This is one feature that the Model 1 Sales people ignored and many of the complaints you hear about reliability stem from this.

armax Joined Jul 2003 Posts 342 EE 0% (0) USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 8:05:35 PM EDT [Last Edit: armax] [#3] I just got a look at bushmasters site. It looks like the length of the bushy buffer tube is longer than the model 1 buffer tube but shorter than the ace buffer tube.

BadgerArms Joined May 2002 Posts 284 EE 100% (48) AK, USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 8:15:01 PM EDT [#4] Unless my tape measure stretched out and then contracted, the Model 1 Sales and Bushy buffers are almost exactly the same length. It looks like they aren't because there are multiple pieces to the Model 1 Unit.

armax Joined Jul 2003 Posts 343 EE 0% (0) USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 8:16:24 PM EDT [#5] got it. thanks for the info. Bushmaster, here I come...

JOHN_E Member Joined Oct 2004 Posts 32 EE 100% (97) NH, USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 10:32:44 PM EDT [#6] Picked up my new Bushmaster pistol today, think I need a flash hider!! More pictures tomorrow if I get to the range.

exsanguinate Joined Mar 2001 Posts 254 EE 100% (18) MT, USA	Posted: 2/4/2005 11:57:59 PM EDT [Last Edit: exsanguinate] [#7] here's mine. nothing too special, except it is an AR pistol. for reliability issues, i used a CAR buffer. note the bolt on the bottom end of the buffer tube. the nut is welded to the bolt as to prevent a stock from being attached to the buffer tube.

BadgerArms

Joined May 2002
Posts 286
EE 100% (48)

AK, USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 2:46:45 AM EDT

[#8]

Originally Posted By exsanguinate:
...the bolt on the bottom end of the buffer tube. the nut is welded to the bolt as to prevent a stock from being attached to the buffer tube.

Based on written interpretation by the BATF, you don't need that bolt... you just need to not attach a stock to the gun and you're good. Ever think of one of them slip-cover neoprene thingy's to dress up your buffer tube?

Noner Joined Oct 2003 Posts 557 EE 100% (123) WA, USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 2:48:56 AM EDT [#9] I'm thinking about grabbing one too... (the neoprene thingy) -Jason

Luopo

Occidental Oriental

Joined Oct 2002
Posts 544
EE 100% (106)

AK, USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 3:09:10 AM EDT

[#10]

Originally Posted By JOHN_E:
Picked up my new Bushmaster pistol today, think I need a flash hider!!
More pictures tomorrow if I get to the range.

Hey JOHN_E, you stole my avatar!

BTW, nice blaster!

In Marriage A Man Can Either Be Right or Be Happy :)

JOHN_E Member Joined Oct 2004 Posts 33 EE 100% (97) NH, USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 7:38:07 AM EDT [#11] Sorry, stole it from another site. Is this one in use here?

Southern_Raider

Joined Mar 2001
Posts 750
EE 100% (106)

NV, USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 9:03:38 AM EDT

[#12]

Originally Posted By BadgerArms:
Based on written interpretation by the BATF, you don't need that bolt...

Are you referring to the letter that says "if you own a stock that fits the tube, it may be construed as a illegal short barreled rifle"? Why does everybody miss that part of the letter?

We went through this ad nauseum on another thread. There is sufficient case law on the subject to make me very nervous and the permanent bolt to prevent a stock from being attached is a small price to pay to avoid a 10 year/$250,000 penalty...

I would have used an sling stud, but hey, it works.

Tomp

Joined Jul 2002
Posts 25
EE 0% (0)

USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 10:04:09 AM EDT

[#13]

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:
Originally Posted By BadgerArms:
Based on written interpretation by the BATF, you don't need that bolt...

Are you referring to the letter that says "if you own a stock that fits the tube, it may be construed as a illegal short barreled rifle"? Why does everybody miss that part of the letter?

We went through this ad nauseum on another thread. There is sufficient case law on the subject to make me very nervous and the permanent bolt to prevent a stock from being attached is a small price to pay to avoid a 10 year/$250,000 penalty...

I would have used an sling stud, but hey, it works.

But following that logic, it sounds to be just as illegal to merely OWN both an AR15 rifle and an AR15 pistol. After all, in just a minute you COULD swap the uppers from one frame to another, right? Gasp! The horror of it all!!!

armax Joined Jul 2003 Posts 344 EE 0% (0) USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 10:45:15 AM EDT [#14] I have to agree. "Could" and "Did" are two totally different words in the eyes of the law.

Big-Bore

Team Member

Joined Oct 2002
Posts 876
EE 100% (11)

IN, USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 10:52:37 AM EDT

[Last Edit: Big-Bore] [#15]

ARGHHHHHH!

NOT THIS AGAIN.

Simple and to the point: Thompson Center Contender Carbine ruling. You can own the pistol with pistol barrel AND the stock IF you also own a rifle length barrel. Just do not put the stock on with the pistol barrel. It doesn't get any clearer.
The ONLY way you can get your tit in the wringer is to ONLY own the AR-15 pistol AND the butt stock. In that case, they can be assembled in no other way other than as an illegal SBR. Rifle upper, another AR-15 rilfe, you are in the clear.

People worry too much. That ATFE is not out to make everyone's life a living hell. Just follow the laws and quit reading between the lines too much.
Do you own a rifle? Do you own a hack saw? OH MY GOD! You have the makings for an ILLEGAL SBR!

Join the N.R.A.
Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.
On the 8th day, God created HKs.

Kaliburz

Team Member

Joined Jan 2001
Posts 4946
EE 100% (1)

USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 12:46:25 PM EDT

[#16]

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
ARGHHHHHH!

NOT THIS AGAIN.

Simple and to the point: Thompson Center Contender Carbine ruling. You can own the pistol with pistol barrel AND the stock IF you also own a rifle length barrel. Just do not put the stock on with the pistol barrel. It doesn't get any clearer.
The ONLY way you can get your tit in the wringer is to ONLY own the AR-15 pistol AND the butt stock. In that case, they can be assembled in no other way other than as an illegal SBR. Rifle upper, another AR-15 rilfe, you are in the clear.

People worry too much. That ATFE is not out to make everyone's life a living hell. Just follow the laws and quit reading between the lines too much.
Do you own a rifle? Do you own a hack saw? OH MY GOD! You have the makings or an ILLEGAL SBR!

Yup..... I agree. AGNTSA.

"I believe in love. I believe in cancer... They are both diseases that need a cure."
WA

Noner Joined Oct 2003 Posts 558 EE 100% (123) WA, USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 1:16:25 PM EDT [#17] Dont worry, no-one likes to read the entire thread to find answers....

Luopo Occidental Oriental Joined Oct 2002 Posts 545 EE 100% (106) AK, USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 6:26:09 PM EDT [#18] Is there anywhere else except Model1sales and CMMGinc that you can buy a 7.5" upper?
	In Marriage A Man Can Either Be Right or Be Happy :)

BadgerArms

Joined May 2002
Posts 287
EE 100% (48)

AK, USA

Posted: 2/5/2005 9:43:17 PM EDT

[#19]

Originally Posted By Luopo:
Is there anywhere else except Model1sales and CMMGinc that you can buy a 7.5" upper?

I do believe that Olympic Arms sells their upper assembly and you don't need a buffer tube either.

exsanguinate Joined Mar 2001 Posts 259 EE 100% (18) MT, USA	Posted: 2/5/2005 11:43:26 PM EDT [Last Edit: exsanguinate] [#20] i test fired my 11.5" ar pistol this evening. 60 rounds without a FTF!!! i was hip shooting and hit ting 8-10" objects at 25-35 yds. the temp was less than 30 deg F so my chrony wasn't working. this probably will not be my last ar pistol

Trekryder Joined Jan 2005 Posts 10 EE 0% (0) NC, USA	Posted: 2/7/2005 6:13:59 PM EDT [#21] is there a verdict on the bushmaster revamp yet????

MRW

-But Not a Moderate!

Joined Mar 2001
Posts 1750
EE 100% (71)

OH, USA

Posted: 2/7/2005 7:30:46 PM EDT

[#22]

Originally Posted By exsanguinate:
i test fired my 11.5" ar pistol this evening. 60 rounds without a FTF!!! i was hip shooting and hit ting 8-10" objects at 25-35 yds. the temp was less than 30 deg F so my chrony wasn't working. this probably will not be my last ar pistol

Yours is exactly like how I plan on building mine. What upper are you using?

Is there a neoprene thing for the CAR tube? Or just for the ace tube that is round all the way... uh... 'round (sounds redundant)

Love what is true, good, and beautiful

...and don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

Accomplice

Joined Apr 2003
Posts 289
EE 0% (0)

FL, USA

Posted: 2/7/2005 7:42:49 PM EDT

[Last Edit: Accomplice] [#23]

Just to keep some pics coming in this thread. Its not really an AR pistol but it was a week or so ago before the SBR tax stamp came back. Its a Bushmaster Carbon 15 Type 97S Pistol turned SBR. Now it has a vertical grip, light mount, Surefire light, sling, Eotech 552 Revision F, HK style grip (swapped to Hogue after taking the pics) and sliding wire stock. Here it is with the rest of my rifles (Krebs KTR-03V with Eotech, Vector V53, Norinco MAK90 Sporter).

JaketheSnakeOO7 Joined Oct 2004 Posts 29 EE 0% (0) FL, USA	Posted: 2/7/2005 10:10:12 PM EDT [#24] Damn, give us details on the vector HK clone, price, how it shoots, etc. Details man Details! looks nice too

WS6_Keith

Joined Oct 2001
Posts 160
EE 100% (47)

NV, USA

Posted: 2/7/2005 10:25:48 PM EDT

[#25]

As absurd as it may sound, has anyone actually carried one of this as a CCW weapon? What sight package would you pick? I was thinking something short and compact would be best. I really like my EO Tech on my rifle, but having to turn it on really defeats the quick response of a pistol. Any other thoughts out there?

I just ordered my 7.5" pistol kit from M1S today.

Accomplice

Joined Apr 2003
Posts 292
EE 0% (0)

FL, USA

Posted: 2/8/2005 1:30:55 AM EDT

[#26]

Originally Posted By JaketheSnakeOO7:
Damn, give us details on the vector HK clone, price, how it shoots, etc. Details man Details! looks nice too

The HK clone shoots well. It required a return trip to Vector for some tinkering but now its running 100%. As far as price goes, I paid what dealers paid (bought 3 at that time) plus a transfer fee to my dealer. I switched the focus of my collection and was going to sell all three but decided to keep this one. I already sold off all of the cool accessories (sliding stocks, rail hand guards, vertical grips, rail covers, 25 & 30 rd. mags, SEF style lowers, etc.) I had for them though which sucks.

GeneralGenocide GG says "Say NO to goats!" Joined Jul 2004 Posts 503 EE 100% (7) ME, USA	Posted: 2/8/2005 1:52:31 PM EDT [#27] tagged for later
	"When only domination, subjugation, or elimination will suffice..."-CorporalChaos "People are strange..."-Jim Morrison

Tomp Joined Jul 2002 Posts 27 EE 0% (0) USA	Posted: 2/8/2005 3:43:23 PM EDT [#28] Well, my lowers finally arrived. I ordered them from CMMG about a month ago, but they ran out of what they had been selling and were waiting on a shipment of their own CMMG-branded recievers. I was not disappointed. Their receivers are easily as nice as any of the Bushmasters that I have. I'd not hesitate to buy more from them. Carry on... Tom

chapperjoe NY2VA Joined Mar 2004 Posts 4090 EE 100% (353) VA, USA	Posted: 2/8/2005 10:06:34 PM EDT [#29] gpt another brain teaser for y'all.... legality of a detach carry handle mounted at 6 o clock position on a quad railed handguard....
	I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

MRW -But Not a Moderate! Joined Mar 2001 Posts 1766 EE 100% (71) OH, USA	Posted: 2/8/2005 10:24:21 PM EDT [#30] non-horizontal handgrip>AOW>PoPos come a knockin I really dunno, but I dunnwanna be the ginnypig
	Love what is true, good, and beautiful ...and don't be so open minded that your brains fall out.

BadgerArms Member Joined May 2002 Posts 294 EE 100% (48) AK, USA	Posted: 2/8/2005 11:08:41 PM EDT [#31] The magazine makes one heck of a forward grip though!
	"I just couldn't stop pulling the trigger!" -- Quote from my daughter the first time she shot a semi-automatic.

chapperjoe

NY2VA

Joined Mar 2004
Posts 4091
EE 100% (353)

VA, USA

Posted: 2/9/2005 12:17:53 AM EDT

[#32]

a) from arfkom:

If a gun has rifled barrel(s) of less than 16", and it has never had a shoulder stock it would be a pistol, unless it either has no grip at an angle to the bore, or if it has more than one grip. ATF has made the questionable decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW. This is based on the gun a) being concealable on the person, and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal court has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW. Whether ATF will regard the decision as binding beyond that case is unknown, I would doubt it.

also see here:www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt

ATF has made the decision that a handgun (but not a machine gun,
since a machine gun is not also an AOW) with more than one hand
grip at an angle tot eh bore is an AOW. This is based on the gun
a) being concealable on the person, and b) not meeting the
definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the
NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the
bore. However, at least one federal magistrate has decided that if
the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be
fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second
grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW. ATF does not regard the
decision as binding. The case is U.S. v. Davis, Crim No. 8:93-106
(D.S.C. 1993) (Report of Magistrate, June 21, 1993). The
prosecution was dismissed at the request of the Government before
any review of that determination by the trial judge.

ummm the carry handle mounted at 6 oclock would NOT be a grip at an angle to the bore.

I will be writing a letter to ATFuckers about this....... heck, maybe I can just ask the NRA folks down the block!

While my 'play dumb' reason will be to store the carry handle while an optic is on flat top, even admitting to using the carry handle to keep my hand on the forearm is not admitting to any second grip........

Now that the ban is over, there is no law against haveing the barrel shrouded, e.g. handguard, and there is no law that says you can't get a firm grip IN LINE with the bore.....!

I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

FASTSH00TER Joined Dec 2004 Posts 14 EE 0% (0) OH, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 2:55:58 PM EDT [#33] http://photobucket.com/albums/v642/fastsh00ter/?

BadgerArms Member Joined May 2002 Posts 301 EE 100% (48) AK, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 3:28:29 PM EDT [#34] ACK... All I get is a red "X."
	"I just couldn't stop pulling the trigger!" -- Quote from my daughter the first time she shot a semi-automatic.

Rose Joined Mar 2003 Posts 65 EE 0% (0) AZ, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 3:48:43 PM EDT [#35] red x

Big-Bore

Team Member

Joined Oct 2002
Posts 889
EE 100% (11)

IN, USA

Posted: 2/9/2005 3:52:03 PM EDT

[#36]

If you get right down to brass tacks, the forward vertical grip and the decision the ATFE made saying the forward vertical grip is an AOW is in contradiction with their own definition of an AOW. So, if you want to challenge the forward vertical grip in court you might win. You might win with the carry handle secured on the forend too. The thing is, what if you don't win?

Join the N.R.A.
Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.
On the 8th day, God created HKs.

BadgerArms Member Joined May 2002 Posts 302 EE 100% (48) AK, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 4:11:43 PM EDT [#37] Well, you don't have to lose. You only have to spend $200 bucks to first register the pistol as an AOW. Then, wait for approval. Once it's approved, install the grip and apply for a tax refund. When you don't get it (duh) sue the gub'mnt. This is the Thompson/Center model and it works... no legal risk, only monetary.
	"I just couldn't stop pulling the trigger!" -- Quote from my daughter the first time she shot a semi-automatic.

davidp14

Wolf ammo whore...

Joined Nov 2002
Posts 1821
EE 100% (45)

VA, USA

Posted: 2/9/2005 4:18:06 PM EDT

[#38]

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Do you own a rifle? Do you own a hack saw? OH MY GOD! You have the makings for an ILLEGAL SBR!

..................................Wait! Oh, shit!! Quick, somebdy buy my hacksaw!!

insert witty or insightful phrase here...

chapperjoe NY2VA Joined Mar 2004 Posts 4104 EE 100% (353) VA, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 4:18:27 PM EDT [#39] but the carry handle is not a grip at an angle to the bore???? I don't see the contradition..... Look at the steyr spp, it has a ledge in front and in back of the forward hand position to keep hand there, so what's wrong with connecting them?
	I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

chapperjoe NY2VA Joined Mar 2004 Posts 4105 EE 100% (353) VA, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 4:19:37 PM EDT [#40]
	I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

zipdrive Joined Feb 2003 Posts 148 EE 0% (0) FL, USA	Posted: 2/9/2005 5:29:38 PM EDT [#41] Now if I could find a 7 1/2 inch .458 or 7.62x39 upper, I would'nt woory so much about 5.56 ballistics. Any body know if they make one?

chapperjoe

NY2VA

Joined Mar 2004
Posts 4130
EE 100% (353)

VA, USA

Posted: 2/10/2005 12:52:09 AM EDT

[#42]

anyone try the ace buffer tube yet?

AR pistol kit. Includes gusset, receiver extension tube, hardware and qiuck detach 1 1/4" sling mount , foam over tube (you cut to length ). Extends 7" from the back edge of the receiver.

ARP MSRP.........$45.00
ARP with buffer and spring (not shown) ARP-BS MSRP.........$ 57.00

I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

JeffersonDarcy

Member

Joined Mar 2004
Posts 1297
EE 0% (0)

NY, USA

Posted: 2/10/2005 1:08:52 AM EDT

[Last Edit: JeffersonDarcy] [#43]

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

oh crap thats the SMG from resident evil 4

rsc

Joined Jan 2005
Posts 6
EE 0% (0)

TX, USA

Posted: 2/10/2005 2:17:56 AM EDT

[#44]

Alright, here's my newest toy. Ameetec lower, M1S kit in 7.62x39 and stock tube. It runs well except one double feed in about 140 rounds and 4 light primer strikes (from bolt bounce?). It's still WAY more reliable than the M16 I carried of into combat! Anyway, it's just a play toy so I saw no need to go spend big bucks for the optics. The more I shoot it, the less practical it seems- but I haven't had this much fun shooting since I got an M1 Carbine.

http://www.streamload.com/NoExpire/ImageDeliver.asp?cxInstID=35483515&NodeID=190518526&AttemptHyper=True&SingleImageDelivery=True

monkeyman Joined May 2001 Posts 1725 EE 100% (6) MI, USA	Posted: 2/10/2005 9:11:53 AM EDT [#45] Here's the lastest incarnation of my 11.5" bbl AR pistol. Started out with a regular pistol buffer, then a tele stock buffer and a cheap red dot sight, now has a 2X pistol scope on it, a bipod and a laser/light gizmo. Pretty damn accurate at long range with the bipod and scope off the bench.

chapperjoe NY2VA Joined Mar 2004 Posts 4133 EE 100% (353) VA, USA	Posted: 2/10/2005 11:09:12 AM EDT [#46] and how the heck can you use a bipod on these? SURELY a carry handle is fine then?
	I'm lookin' for a nice Jewish virgin...............ian

FASTSH00TER Joined Dec 2004 Posts 15 EE 0% (0) OH, USA	Posted: 2/10/2005 12:46:13 PM EDT [#47] Here's my 1st pistol build I haven't seen anyone else do a quad rail on a pitol before - I say why not? http://img125.exs.cx/img125/1261/megahose7va.th.jpg http://http://img125.exs.cx/img125/1261/megahose7va.th.jpg" border=0>

HMC2RN Member Joined Jul 2004 Posts 48 EE 0% (0) IL, USA	Posted: 2/10/2005 12:59:01 PM EDT [#48] Tagged for reference.

mongo001

Gucci Gear Couch Sniper

Joined Mar 2003
Posts 5191
EE 100% (72)

MI, USA

Posted: 2/10/2005 1:00:28 PM EDT

[#49]

Originally Posted By monkeyman:

Boy, the people who have a problem with carbines using a bipod would shit a brick seeing this pistol with one.

Nice build, BTW.

This post edited for typos and grammatical errors.

Thinking twice and posting once.<img src=/images/smilies/anim_rolleyes.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hello, my name is Mongo and I am a couch sniper.

BadgerArms Member Joined May 2002 Posts 303 EE 100% (48) AK, USA	Posted: 2/10/2005 1:23:06 PM EDT [#50] That's the gayest thing I've ever seen. PLEASE SBR that thing and take that cluster of crap off the top of your otherwise cool looking gun. Bipod? What the heck are you thinking!?
	"I just couldn't stop pulling the trigger!" -- Quote from my daughter the first time she shot a semi-automatic.

The AR15 PISTOL INFORMATION THREAD !!! (Page 8 of 20)

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