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Posted: 7/22/2016 8:07:02 PM EDT
[#1]
My $0.02 is that both LaRue and Molon are right.
The point of the 3 shot group is that it is easy to cherry pick out of several groups and report the occasional or rare "good" group. I assume LaRue does ONE 3 shot group (question would be what do they do if the first group is bad, do you shoot a second/third/fourth????). If you have a manufacturing system in place, and you know your barrels are good and consistent, then doing a 3 shot group just to confirm you didn't get some strange defect is sufficient. It you are hunting for extreme accuracy (precison) then you do need to shoot 5/10 shot groups. i.e. if you want the BEST LaRue barrel you would take 5 or 10 of them and shoot 10 shot groups with each and find which of those 5/10 is the "best". And then do the same with fine tuning the ammo. (same with Krieger or any other barrel) Molon is right that you need 5-10 shot groups to weed out the statistical diffenences, but I don't think doing a 3 shot shot group on production barrels to weed out the "outliers" is wrong at all. If I do a load workup, I would shoot at least 5 shot groups. If a manufacutrer can take every barrell off the line and do one 3 shot test under 1 MOA, that would indicate to me that they are 1 MOA barrels (granted a small % would be "chance" that they made 1 MOA, but with the maufcturing standards, and the vast majority making 1 MOA out of hundreds or thousands of barrels would make that unlikely, and we are looking ar probabilities) The more shots in a group, the more statistically significant that group is, but the main problem with 3 shot groups is the ease of "cherry picking" a group that does not represent the average. Just my $0.02...... |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 11:21:49 AM EDT
[#2]
I like the idea off getting 10 barrels and after testing keeping the best but my wallet doesn't..
I have an 18 PredatAR barrel on the way and don't reload yet. What has been found to be its favorite factory load? I have a pile of 223 75gr tap and IMI 77gr Razercore will it do the trick or do I need a pile of something else. Thanks I will probably pick up a 20" stealth soon. Coyotes are my targets. For these builds. And I can shoot (at) steel targets up to 1500 yds from my deck so I do like longer barrels. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 11:52:06 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. |
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Posted: 7/23/2016 3:50:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the side of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the side of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. Send me one of those hard shooting buil barrels, I'll whack it into a PredatAR to see how she'll hang nekid. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 11:51:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, that's not what happened at all. 
I see thousands and thousands of groups shot from thousands and thousands of 5.56, 7.62, 300BLk, and now 260 Rem. LaRue rifles. Under .1 MOA happens every once in a while and 1/4 MOA is ho-hum. He shot what he said he shot, even if he flinched them all together, and got an unnecessary curb stomp a la TOS style. You think it's cute crushing an accuracy newbie online, it ain't cute. We need all the accuracy nuts we can get. And there's more here at play than just a 1/4" group, it's forum politics and it's far from subtle. Now off to find TheKnack's 5-group target from his cheap-ass LaRue barrel. ETA - found it, and look, he shot a 0.272", easily mistaken for a quarter minute group, better get the big boots on and the ban hammer  
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This thread has been quite educational for me. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think. 
ETA - For those curious, here was the "trigger" that triggered the curb stomp ... TOS eschews mention of the L word. Here's the funny part, iirc, that thread was the first one I clicked in a Molon M4C search. 
RonboF117 said: 02-10-16 20:41 The 75g 5.56 Match round (stock #81264) is one of the most accurate rounds I have shot in my 16" Larue tOBR. It has produced 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yds on more than one occasion. I don't recall seeing anything odd with the brass. Although it has the adjustable gas system that all Larue's come with, it was on the normal/unsuppressed setting. Based on what Hornady says though, I'm going to keep a closer eye on the brass. A shooter made a ridiculous claim which happens all of the time. Molon, like many others, probably gets tired of seeing this kind of stuff posted as fact. I don't think it's a dig at Larue barrels. He's simply pointing out the ridiculous claim. Maybe a bit a brash, but "Ronbo" got taught a lesson. I'm glad ar15.com has the MOA All Day challenge and the Wall of Claim. Cuts down on the BS. No, that's not what happened at all.
I see thousands and thousands of groups shot from thousands and thousands of 5.56, 7.62, 300BLk, and now 260 Rem. LaRue rifles. Under .1 MOA happens every once in a while and 1/4 MOA is ho-hum. He shot what he said he shot, even if he flinched them all together, and got an unnecessary curb stomp a la TOS style. You think it's cute crushing an accuracy newbie online, it ain't cute. We need all the accuracy nuts we can get. And there's more here at play than just a 1/4" group, it's forum politics and it's far from subtle. Now off to find TheKnack's 5-group target from his cheap-ass LaRue barrel. ETA - found it, and look, he shot a 0.272", easily mistaken for a quarter minute group, better get the big boots on and the ban hammer
Thank you MR. Larue for such a great barrel. Today I took my new build on it's maiden voyage and decided to shoot the MOA challenge it was doing so well. Here are my results. <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/DSCN1762.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/DSCN1762.jpg</a> <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/DSCN1765.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/DSCN1765.jpg</a> <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/DSCN1757.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/DSCN1757.jpg</a> <a href="http://s176.photobucket.com/user/marine38/media/DSCN1756.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w165/marine38/DSCN1756.jpg</a> I am shocked. I knew your barrels were great but this is incredible. Thanks again. 100 Yard SPR Division Entry- Bipod using arm as rear rest. .512, .806, .272, .414, .602 = 2.606 / 5= .521 AVG divided by 1.047= .497 MOA Home built 20" Larue Stealth barrel / Harris Bipod / Weaver 3x15 Tactical Scope / ADI 69 grain SMK I truly am amazed at the accuracy of this barrel. Will have to do it again sometime but conditions today were perfect as they get out here. Let me know if I submitted this right. Thanks If we are going to get all technical let us define accuracy and precision correctly. Just Sayin |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 12:03:08 PM EDT
[#6]
^^^
Hittin' stuff. 
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Posted: 8/26/2016 12:41:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 5:58:04 AM EDT
[#8]
When you can get the best barrels in the world for 350 a blank, why would you go cheap? How much are you really saving there...
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Posted: 8/27/2016 8:36:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you can get the best barrels in the world for 350 a blank, why would you go cheap? How much are you really saving there... Why would you spend $350 for a blank when a $225-245 LaRue finished barrel will shoot better than you are capable? |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 8:46:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would you spend $350 for a blank when a $225-245 LaRue finished barrel will shoot better than you are capable? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When you can get the best barrels in the world for 350 a blank, why would you go cheap? How much are you really saving there... Why would you spend $350 for a blank when a $225-245 LaRue finished barrel will shoot better than you are capable? He's a thrill seeker - likes to wait for months on the blank, then pucker in anticipation to see if it made it all the way through chambering, turning, and crowning. 
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Posted: 8/27/2016 9:39:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#12]
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Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. No matter how you word it, you are intentionally obfuscating. Professional benchrest shooter shoot great benchrest scores. No shit. Are they bolts or are they autoloaders? .340 is nothing to sneeze at with an autoloader fired from a non-professional shooter. And it isn't just one or two guys. The fact is LaRue barrels shoot. And they do so at a great price, with a profile that is usable in ANY situation. Deal with it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 10:06:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. Are they aluminum receivers with a magazine filled with factory anmo using a 4 pound trigger? |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 10:30:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are they aluminum receivers with a magazine filled with factory anmo using a 4 pound trigger? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated. I thought the results of last year's national IBS benchrest results for barrels used by the top 20 contestants and the size of the winner's five shot group repeated five times and referree scored in both classes most comparable in side and weight to our rifles was . . . . . pretty compelling. Did I miss any .155" or .166" 100 yard aggregates on MOA Challenge leader board? There is one very nice .340 MOA aggregate (or .350") and after that they all fall considerably into the .5 MOA or larger range. The best MOA challenge from a Larue barrel, as great as I admit it to be, is still over twice the typical top benchrest groups from light rifles. The .166" was in hunter class, where scope magnification is limited to 6x. You mean to tell me a benchrest shooter firing a purpose built benchrest gun with heavy or bull barrels, shooting from a bench is shooting smaller groups than someone with a mass produced barrel firing from a bipod or squeeze bag?? That's really astonishing. Hunter class benchrest rifles cannot weigh more than 10 pounds total and must use scopes with no more than 6x magnification. They also must have a rounded forestock bottom profile and must slide freely within the front and rear bag - no bipod or other direct attachment to the stock. You need to shoot under 1/4" at 100 yards to be taken seriously, five shot groups five times in a row. Are they aluminum receivers with a magazine filled with factory anmo using a 4 pound trigger? No, but they do not have bull barrels in hunter class or light vsrmint class (too heavy) and their barrels are more accurate, the subject of this thread (Kreiger does very well in Hunter class benchrest). I thought we were discussing inherent barrel accuracy. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 10:36:42 AM EDT
[#15]
^^^
We are discussing accuracy, but someone decided to throw in a benchrest option in an AR forum. Apples to oranges ... Wouldn't a steel receiver be nice, with no magazine hole gouged through it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/278522_.html&page=1&sr=0 |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 4:39:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ We are discussing accuracy, but someone decided to throw in a benchrest option in an AR forum. Apples to oranges ... Wouldn't a steel receiver be nice, with no magazine hole gouged through it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/278522_.html&page=1&sr=0 The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. BTW, Hunter class rifles must have a "magazine hole" in the action with a functioning magazine. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 4:43:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
^^^ We are discussing accuracy, but someone decided to throw in a benchrest option in an AR forum. Apples to oranges ... Wouldn't a steel receiver be nice, with no magazine hole gouged through it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/278522_.html&page=1&sr=0 The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. Fox and the grapes. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 4:46:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fox and the grapes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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^^^ We are discussing accuracy, but someone decided to throw in a benchrest option in an AR forum. Apples to oranges ... Wouldn't a steel receiver be nice, with no magazine hole gouged through it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/278522_.html&page=1&sr=0 The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. Fox and the grapes. No, extremely accurate and good but less accurate. The fox was killed with a Kreiger bsrrel and the grapes are sour. The popular action is a Stolle, and is aluminum. It has the "magazine hole" and functioning magazine. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 5:02:22 PM EDT
[#19]
^^^
Yep, you're the genius and I am just another knows-nuttin' barrel maker.
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Posted: 8/27/2016 5:10:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Translation: win stuff.
If the CMP had implemented the overall rifle weight rule, there might have heen a noticeable amount of LaRue barrels at Camp Perry. I'm still considering them instead of a short phone pole when my juniors need another barrel. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 5:15:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fox and the grapes. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 5:53:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. BTW, Hunter class rifles must have a "magazine hole" in the action with a functioning magazine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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^^^ We are discussing accuracy, but someone decided to throw in a benchrest option in an AR forum. Apples to oranges ... Wouldn't a steel receiver be nice, with no magazine hole gouged through it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_219/278522_.html&page=1&sr=0 The issue, I thought was whether a Larure barrel was more accurate than a comparable Krieger. I merely submit that Kreiger and other custom barrel makers have a long and well -documented track record in sanctioned and referreed competive shooting from which pretty valid, repeatable conclusions can be drawn. I have never denied that Larue makes good barrels, but it is a stretch to suggest that they will shoot tighter groups than a comparable Kreiger when the other variables are eliminated. An unreferreed honor system competition not sanctioned by any national or international sport shooting organization is insufficient proof that the barrel is more accurate. BTW, Hunter class rifles must have a "magazine hole" in the action with a functioning magazine. I be in da unrefereered honor system ...
28.Larue_Tactical tOBR 16" 556/ 77gr GMM .617 .623 .657 .969 .979= .769 |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:26:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no such thing as "best" at that level, as barrel to barrel variations within brand can confound comparisons, they are all so good with optimized ammo. MS556, I'm quoting you from the first page of this thread. I think you made an excellent point with this post. It's the very point you seem to have forgotten with your recent hatred for all things LaRue. There is no "best". It's just like asking what is the best optic. If you ask me what the best is between the two, I will ask you what you desired to do with your rifle. Best is determined by a culmination of things. Krieger has a well established record of great barrels. They would be at the top of my list for a heavy contour bench gun. I realize they make all profiles. But for great accuracy, with a reasonable weight, at a good price,.....I'll go LaRue. I left out the last part of your post. The last part you were responding to a poster that claimed Lilja "was bringing up the rear" in his order of preference. You seemed defensive about your Lilja (beautiful piece by the way) barrel. Are you upset that deep down in your heart you know you could have had a LaRue that was a better barrel at a better price? 
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:23:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MS556, I'm quoting you from the first page of this thread. I think you made an excellent point with this post. It's the very point you seem to have forgotten with your recent hatred for all things LaRue. There is no "best". It's just like asking what is the best optic. If you ask me what the best is between the two, I will ask you what you desired to do with your rifle. Best is determined by a culmination of things. Krieger has a well established record of great barrels. They would be at the top of my list for a heavy contour bench gun. I realize they make all profiles. But for great accuracy, with a reasonable weight, at a good price,.....I'll go LaRue. I left out the last part of your post. The last part you were responding to a poster that claimed Lilja "was bringing up the rear" in his order of preference. You seemed defensive about your Lilja (beautiful piece by the way) barrel. Are you upset that deep down in your heart you know you could have had a LaRue that was a better barrel at a better price? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is no such thing as "best" at that level, as barrel to barrel variations within brand can confound comparisons, they are all so good with optimized ammo. MS556, I'm quoting you from the first page of this thread. I think you made an excellent point with this post. It's the very point you seem to have forgotten with your recent hatred for all things LaRue. There is no "best". It's just like asking what is the best optic. If you ask me what the best is between the two, I will ask you what you desired to do with your rifle. Best is determined by a culmination of things. Krieger has a well established record of great barrels. They would be at the top of my list for a heavy contour bench gun. I realize they make all profiles. But for great accuracy, with a reasonable weight, at a good price,.....I'll go LaRue. I left out the last part of your post. The last part you were responding to a poster that claimed Lilja "was bringing up the rear" in his order of preference. You seemed defensive about your Lilja (beautiful piece by the way) barrel. Are you upset that deep down in your heart you know you could have had a LaRue that was a better barrel at a better price? I've always held the view that Larue makes a very good barrel. Especially so at its price point. I've never suggested otherwise. Where we differ is the suggestion that their barrels are somehow superior or even in the same class as custom AR profile barrels from Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Bartlein et cetera, and that the MOA challenge is adequate to support that contention. With those custom barrels, they're all better than my own abilities, which are probably just under half MOA, I'm not sure Larue barrels can break 1/4 MOA, but Kreiger and Lilja barrels have been proven over and over to have that capability with boring consistency in skilled hands. BTW, I have quite a few Larue products and have frequently recommended them in other threads on this board, at least up until recently. I have no hatred for all things Larue. A Larue bsrrel could have been obtained at a better price. It would be a very good bsrrel, but better barrel than the Lilja M4 Recon? I suggest not. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:28:49 AM EDT
[#25]
^^^
Then the inevitable blackmail card is played ... |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:37:58 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Then the inevitable blackmail card is played ... Methinks thou doth protest to loudly, sir. Of what do you speak? Are your customers not permitted an opinion? That post does not serve your cause well. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:40:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Then the inevitable blackmail card is played ... It would be backfiring if his plan is to harm you as everytime I see this thread I end up on your site adding things to my current cart. Now if you had a show room you would probably have put a dent in my 401k because everything I have received from you turns me on to the point of needing to go to confession. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:42:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Methinks thou doth protest to loudly, sir. Of what do you speak? Are your customers not permitted an opinion? That post does not serve your cause well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
^^^ Then the inevitable blackmail card is played ... Methinks thou doth protest to loudly, sir. Of what do you speak? Are your customers not permitted an opinion? That post does not serve your cause well. It often turns into "You'll never work in this town again!!!" 
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Posted: 8/28/2016 11:06:35 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've always held the view that Larue makes a very good barrel. Especially so at its price point. I've never suggested otherwise. Where we differ is the suggestion that their barrels are somehow superior or even in the same class as custom AR profile barrels from Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Bartlein et cetera, and that the MOA challenge is adequate to support that contention. With those custom barrels, they're all better than my own abilities, which are probably just under half MOA, I'm not sure Larue barrels can break 1/4 MOA, but Kreiger and Lilja barrels have been proven over and over to have that capability with boring consistency in skilled hands. BTW, I have quite a few Larue products and have frequently recommended them in other threads on this board, at least up until recently. I have no hatred for all things Larue. A Larue bsrrel could have been obtained at a better price. It would be a very good bsrrel, but better barrel than the Lilja M4 Recon? I suggest not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no such thing as "best" at that level, as barrel to barrel variations within brand can confound comparisons, they are all so good with optimized ammo. MS556, I'm quoting you from the first page of this thread. I think you made an excellent point with this post. It's the very point you seem to have forgotten with your recent hatred for all things LaRue. There is no "best". It's just like asking what is the best optic. If you ask me what the best is between the two, I will ask you what you desired to do with your rifle. Best is determined by a culmination of things. Krieger has a well established record of great barrels. They would be at the top of my list for a heavy contour bench gun. I realize they make all profiles. But for great accuracy, with a reasonable weight, at a good price,.....I'll go LaRue. I left out the last part of your post. The last part you were responding to a poster that claimed Lilja "was bringing up the rear" in his order of preference. You seemed defensive about your Lilja (beautiful piece by the way) barrel. Are you upset that deep down in your heart you know you could have had a LaRue that was a better barrel at a better price? I've always held the view that Larue makes a very good barrel. Especially so at its price point. I've never suggested otherwise. Where we differ is the suggestion that their barrels are somehow superior or even in the same class as custom AR profile barrels from Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Bartlein et cetera, and that the MOA challenge is adequate to support that contention. With those custom barrels, they're all better than my own abilities, which are probably just under half MOA, I'm not sure Larue barrels can break 1/4 MOA, but Kreiger and Lilja barrels have been proven over and over to have that capability with boring consistency in skilled hands. BTW, I have quite a few Larue products and have frequently recommended them in other threads on this board, at least up until recently. I have no hatred for all things Larue. A Larue bsrrel could have been obtained at a better price. It would be a very good bsrrel, but better barrel than the Lilja M4 Recon? I suggest not. I know damn well my LaRue barrel is better than your Lilja. I mean, I haven't "worked up a load" of 52gr that are useless for anything but target shooting, but I contend my Stealth is a better barrel. Maybe you could show your one cherry picked group a couple thousand times to prove me otherwise. Or you might try knocking a few LaRue owners down a peg or two when you displace them on the moa list. Face it....you paid more for a barrel that only shoots some light target bullets well,......sometimes.....or at least once. You wish you would have bought a Stealth. It's Ok. We get it.
ETA:. Yes, I'm giving you a hard time. Yes, I know you have a quality barrel on a rifle that is built with great quality parts. ML might rub you and many others the wrong way. I get it. You feel he's using an "honor system" challenge to boost his barrels clout. I submit to you that he's surely vocal, but he speaks the truth. He tests his rifles and barrels extensively. Even if the MOA challenge didn't exist, his barrels are still some of the best in their class. As he's stated before, he knows they shoot. The challenge is just a good way for his consumers to verify it. FWIW:. In the real, non-internet world, people that are great at what they do, vocal, or opinionated, are often considered or come across as assholes. But those type of people are great at what they do because they are often times perfectionists and take what they build or do very seriously. ML is a big boy. He can take it. I just think you take his ribbing a bit too seriously. We've never personally met. But from my understanding you worked in a higher end automotive machine shop? I'm willing to bet you took great pride in your work and would stand behind it no matter what. You might have even been opinionated about it. Hope that makes sense. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 5:04:04 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know damn well my LaRue barrel is better than your Lilja. I mean, I haven't "worked up a load" of 52gr that are useless for anything but target shooting, but I contend my Stealth is a better barrel. Maybe you could show your one cherry picked group a couple thousand times to prove me otherwise. Or you might try knocking a few LaRue owners down a peg or two when you displace them on the moa list. Face it....you paid more for a barrel that only shoots some light target bullets well,......sometimes.....or at least once. You wish you would have bought a Stealth. It's Ok. We get it.
ETA:. Yes, I'm giving you a hard time. Yes, I know you have a quality barrel on a rifle that is built with great quality parts. ML might rub you and many others the wrong way. I get it. You feel he's using an "honor system" challenge to boost his barrels clout. I submit to you that he's surely vocal, but he speaks the truth. He tests his rifles and barrels extensively. Even if the MOA challenge didn't exist, his barrels are still some of the best in their class. As he's stated before, he knows they shoot. The challenge is just a good way for his consumers to verify it. FWIW:. In the real, non-internet world, people that are great at what they do, vocal, or opinionated, are often considered or come across as assholes. But those type of people are great at what they do because they are often times perfectionists and take what they build or do very seriously. ML is a big boy. He can take it. I just think you take his ribbing a bit too seriously. We've never personally met. But from my understanding you worked in a higher end automotive machine shop? I'm willing to bet you took great pride in your work and would stand behind it no matter what. You might have even been opinionated about it. Hope that makes sense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is no such thing as "best" at that level, as barrel to barrel variations within brand can confound comparisons, they are all so good with optimized ammo. MS556, I'm quoting you from the first page of this thread. I think you made an excellent point with this post. It's the very point you seem to have forgotten with your recent hatred for all things LaRue. There is no "best". It's just like asking what is the best optic. If you ask me what the best is between the two, I will ask you what you desired to do with your rifle. Best is determined by a culmination of things. Krieger has a well established record of great barrels. They would be at the top of my list for a heavy contour bench gun. I realize they make all profiles. But for great accuracy, with a reasonable weight, at a good price,.....I'll go LaRue. I left out the last part of your post. The last part you were responding to a poster that claimed Lilja "was bringing up the rear" in his order of preference. You seemed defensive about your Lilja (beautiful piece by the way) barrel. Are you upset that deep down in your heart you know you could have had a LaRue that was a better barrel at a better price? I've always held the view that Larue makes a very good barrel. Especially so at its price point. I've never suggested otherwise. Where we differ is the suggestion that their barrels are somehow superior or even in the same class as custom AR profile barrels from Kreiger, Lilja, Hart, Bartlein et cetera, and that the MOA challenge is adequate to support that contention. With those custom barrels, they're all better than my own abilities, which are probably just under half MOA, I'm not sure Larue barrels can break 1/4 MOA, but Kreiger and Lilja barrels have been proven over and over to have that capability with boring consistency in skilled hands. BTW, I have quite a few Larue products and have frequently recommended them in other threads on this board, at least up until recently. I have no hatred for all things Larue. A Larue bsrrel could have been obtained at a better price. It would be a very good bsrrel, but better barrel than the Lilja M4 Recon? I suggest not. I know damn well my LaRue barrel is better than your Lilja. I mean, I haven't "worked up a load" of 52gr that are useless for anything but target shooting, but I contend my Stealth is a better barrel. Maybe you could show your one cherry picked group a couple thousand times to prove me otherwise. Or you might try knocking a few LaRue owners down a peg or two when you displace them on the moa list. Face it....you paid more for a barrel that only shoots some light target bullets well,......sometimes.....or at least once. You wish you would have bought a Stealth. It's Ok. We get it.
ETA:. Yes, I'm giving you a hard time. Yes, I know you have a quality barrel on a rifle that is built with great quality parts. ML might rub you and many others the wrong way. I get it. You feel he's using an "honor system" challenge to boost his barrels clout. I submit to you that he's surely vocal, but he speaks the truth. He tests his rifles and barrels extensively. Even if the MOA challenge didn't exist, his barrels are still some of the best in their class. As he's stated before, he knows they shoot. The challenge is just a good way for his consumers to verify it. FWIW:. In the real, non-internet world, people that are great at what they do, vocal, or opinionated, are often considered or come across as assholes. But those type of people are great at what they do because they are often times perfectionists and take what they build or do very seriously. ML is a big boy. He can take it. I just think you take his ribbing a bit too seriously. We've never personally met. But from my understanding you worked in a higher end automotive machine shop? I'm willing to bet you took great pride in your work and would stand behind it no matter what. You might have even been opinionated about it. Hope that makes sense. I respect your point of view, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject of this thread, and leave it at that. FWIW, I do continue to post photos in other threads, even today, on other subjects. They often, including today, depict Larue products. However, my opinion on this thread is supported with hard evidence and remains unchanged. I am not a one dimensional light bullet shooter, though. I'm presently working on a Berger 70 grain VLD load for the same barrel, same BC as a 77 SMK, but capable of higher velocity at the same pressure. In other words, a long range load. The heavier bullet might actually like the 1:8 twist better, although it might not settle down at 100 yards as lighter flat based bullets do. We'll see how the barrel and load work together. The limiting factor, again, is likely me. I consider modesty a virtue. I'll leave this thread to others. Nothing more to add. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 7:38:16 AM EDT
[#32]
^^^
Is the 1.06 average in inches or MOA ? |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 8:13:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Is the 1.06 average in inches or MOA ? Inches After the first group or two I was frustrated as hell and literally shot the last 10 or 12 damn near rapid fire. Bam, bam, bam,....less than a half-second pause in between shots. Damn it was hot. The Stealth will stack bullets on top of each other if I put it in a rest. But that's cheating. 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 8:40:48 AM EDT
[#34]
^^^
Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA
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Posted: 8/29/2016 8:46:09 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA You're too kind...
But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned.
And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 9:11:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're too kind...
But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned.
And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
^^^ Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA You're too kind...
But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned.
And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. It comes with 2 springs. Couldn't you reform one with a lower preload and achieve a lighter pull? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 9:25:04 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It comes with 2 springs. Couldn't you reform one with a lower preload and achieve a lighter pull? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
^^^ Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA You're too kind...
But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned.
And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. It comes with 2 springs. Couldn't you reform one with a lower preload and achieve a lighter pull? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I might try that with some I have laying around. But mine only came with one spring. It was the first run LT made and if I'm not mistaken I paid something like $249 or $259 for it. I have two of them but both are the earlier silver colored models. Good idea though! I'll give it a shot with some of my spares. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 9:48:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I might try that with some I have laying around. But mine only came with one spring. It was the first run LT made and if I'm not mistaken I paid something like $249 or $259 for it. I have two of them but both are the earlier silver colored models. Good idea though! I'll give it a shot with some of my spares. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ^^^ Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA You're too kind... But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned. And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. It comes with 2 springs. Couldn't you reform one with a lower preload and achieve a lighter pull? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I might try that with some I have laying around. But mine only came with one spring. It was the first run LT made and if I'm not mistaken I paid something like $249 or $259 for it. I have two of them but both are the earlier silver colored models. Good idea though! I'll give it a shot with some of my spares. Where are you in Mississippi? I have 3 of the heavier springs, if you want one or two. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 9:52:46 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where are you in Mississippi? I have 3 of the heavier springs, if you want one or two. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
^^^ Let's rename it to the 1.01 MOA You're too kind...
But.... I have a shorter bipod more suitable for a bench on the way. As well as some different/perhaps even betterer ammo too. You can bet your ass I'm hitting that board, even if it kills me. Stay tuned.
And, I still want a MBT-2S "Extreme" with a lighter and/or adjustable second stage. Pleaseeeee! Thanks for the great barrel. It comes with 2 springs. Couldn't you reform one with a lower preload and achieve a lighter pull? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I might try that with some I have laying around. But mine only came with one spring. It was the first run LT made and if I'm not mistaken I paid something like $249 or $259 for it. I have two of them but both are the earlier silver colored models. Good idea though! I'll give it a shot with some of my spares. Where are you in Mississippi? I have 3 of the heavier springs, if you want one or two. That's Ok. I'm going to tinker with several others I have laying around. But I do very much appreciate the offer. I'm right down the road from Memphis. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 10:41:00 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I attempted the MOA Challenge earlier. Needless to say I keep disappointing myself, but the Stealth continues to impress. I shot these two cherry picked groups while attempting the Challenge. I pulled the first shot on the third aiming point and threw in the towel on this target. But they do illustrate what "should" be happening if it weren't for the idiot on the trigger. Ammo used was ADI 69gr @ 100yards. About 100 degrees or so ambient todayhttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_203925_zpsl49jqqjb.jpg Here's the one target I completed for the Challenge. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I am not happy with the results. Was shooting with a bipod up front and a Triad Tac rear squeeze bag. I was sweating so badly I started rushing my shots to try and finish. I'm not sure if I will officially enter this as I'm sure it can be improved upon with a little practice. But here's what the end result was regardlesshttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_203940_zpsblfrognx.jpghttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_170037_zpsagb799va.jpghttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_174602_zpseapnsorz.jpg 1.01MOA is damn fine shooting sir. Don't beat yourself up. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 10:44:28 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1.01MOA is damn fine shooting sir. Don't beat yourself up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I attempted the MOA Challenge earlier. Needless to say I keep disappointing myself, but the Stealth continues to impress. I shot these two cherry picked groups while attempting the Challenge. I pulled the first shot on the third aiming point and threw in the towel on this target. But they do illustrate what "should" be happening if it weren't for the idiot on the trigger. Ammo used was ADI 69gr @ 100yards. About 100 degrees or so ambient todayhttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_203925_zpsl49jqqjb.jpg Here's the one target I completed for the Challenge. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I am not happy with the results. Was shooting with a bipod up front and a Triad Tac rear squeeze bag. I was sweating so badly I started rushing my shots to try and finish. I'm not sure if I will officially enter this as I'm sure it can be improved upon with a little practice. But here's what the end result was regardlesshttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_203940_zpsblfrognx.jpghttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_170037_zpsagb799va.jpghttp://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv167/foursixty/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160828_174602_zpseapnsorz.jpg 1.01MOA is damn fine shooting sir. Don't beat yourself up. Thanks. You guys make it look easy....
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Posted: 9/17/2016 7:53:21 AM EDT
[#42]
This is a before and after barrel ...
The four 260 groups on the right were out of one of our 22" barrels shot on Wednesday. The four groups on the left were shot today out of same barrel after was whacked into an 18"er. We shoot upper left 5-shots, lower left 3-shots, upper right 5-shots, lower right 3-shots ... in that sequence. 
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Posted: 9/17/2016 9:18:23 AM EDT
[#43]
Impressive...
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Posted: 10/2/2016 5:31:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Impressive... Meh, run of the mill.
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Posted: 10/19/2016 9:07:35 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is a constant source of entertainment/amusement. I don't think anyone can question that both barrels are top notch. So, in the absence of anyone being able to prove that one is consistently and measurably better than the other, I'm gonna sit here and wait for two more $225 kick ass barrels to arrive at my door. I'd love to shoot a Krieger too, but not until I see some compelling evidence that it's worth the extra cash. At some point if this argument is going to end, someone will have to agree on the standard by which the barrels are being evaluated.   
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Posted: 10/19/2016 11:29:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Molon is the last guy I would call out in a precision rifle thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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-snip- As for your insignificant 3-shot group comment, no team has shot more of both same barrel 5-shot and 3-shot groups from 100s, nay, 1000s of different barrels than I, and I know exactly how significant 3-shot groups are with my barrels. Hell, I can see 3 nice 3-shot groups in each of your 10-shot groups.  Oh boy. Duck and cover, everyone.
Molon is the last guy I would call out in a precision rifle thread. lol? What? What? A back yard tester vs a bonafide professional rifle and parts maker who forgotten more about barrels than most people know? Dear lord. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 11:35:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mark's comments to Molon has changed my mind about considering a LaRue Stealth barrel for my next SPR build. Even though LaRue's current price to accuracy ratio for their barrels is very attractive and well documented, Mark's self-aggrandizement and pokes at respected members really disappoints me. 
Molon's presence here has consistently been full of helpful controlled, scientific, and unbiased reviews that you rarely see in the shooting world (using multiple barrels on each review typically - not just a sample of 1), where most people have an agenda to try and sell equipment and/or advertisements in their publications. Um. You're joking right? I'm absolutely lost for words. He's respected by guys who think he's doing scientific work. He's a back yard tester. Period. Which would be fine but he has an attitude and calls people names who disagree with him. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 11:54:04 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mark, You make great stuff....so don't take this personally... Molon is correct on the scientifically valid method he uses to test the precision of a given load through that specific gun on that specific day. He shoots control groups every time with known ammo at the same range, same gear, eliminating as many variables as possible. He is correct with his methodology. It doesn't mean that another barrel or ammo won't perform to the same level...just that he has a clear method (not dissimilar from some parts of DOD on the procurement side who do similar lot acceptance testing of ammo) for proving on paper what does what. I have zero doubt that you could send Molon or someone a similar upper and it would perform in a similar manner under the same conditions. Barrel making isn't magic. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised you guys are still using humans to shoot the rifles. I figured a machining guru such as yourself would have a test fixture made up to take the human element out and thus shrink groups even farther... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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^^^ Here's the deal - 3/4" rifles shoot from 1/4" to 1.50" groups, it's the thing about averaging, there will be hlghs... and lows. That benchrest rifle that shot a 0.009" group back in the late 70s wasn't a 0.009" rifle, but it's documented that it damn sure shot that group on that day with that wind and that shooter and that ammo. ETA - a monkey could read Ronbo's mood as happy go lucky, just wanting to contribute. Even Molon's cute little wind reading dog could read the winds of Ronbo's post. A curb stomp is what he got a la Molon and TOS's MO. And as for 3-shot groups, 40% of the Top 40 on the 1 MOA board got a LaRue factory-fired 3-shot group before going out our door or nothing at all if they were a $225 on-sale barrel. I'd bet the title to my house that Ronbo would have gotten an entirely different reception to his 1/4" group claim had it been shot from a Krieger barrel ... or anything but a LaRue barrel. Mark, You make great stuff....so don't take this personally... Molon is correct on the scientifically valid method he uses to test the precision of a given load through that specific gun on that specific day. He shoots control groups every time with known ammo at the same range, same gear, eliminating as many variables as possible. He is correct with his methodology. It doesn't mean that another barrel or ammo won't perform to the same level...just that he has a clear method (not dissimilar from some parts of DOD on the procurement side who do similar lot acceptance testing of ammo) for proving on paper what does what. I have zero doubt that you could send Molon or someone a similar upper and it would perform in a similar manner under the same conditions. Barrel making isn't magic. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised you guys are still using humans to shoot the rifles. I figured a machining guru such as yourself would have a test fixture made up to take the human element out and thus shrink groups even farther... Omg stop saying that. He doesn't shoot in a controlled environment. He doesn't change targets after each shot and claims it doesn't matter (bullshit), he doesn't use lasers to measure if the rifle moved between shots, if the target moved, he doesn't do shit but lay a rifle down, shoot, and do some math!! Do you people have any idea how much money alone it would take (not to mention time) to reach a real scientific conclusion for just one barrel and one lot of ammo?!! Not a couple ten round groups, that's for sure. I'm leaving this thread now before I pull my hair out. |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 12:55:50 PM EDT
[#49]
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Meh, run of the mill.
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Impressive... Meh, run of the mill.
Probably already been mentioned here but I don't see your barrel material listed on the website are they 416? |
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Posted: 10/19/2016 11:15:59 PM EDT
[#50]
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Um. You're joking right? I'm absolutely lost for words. He's respected by guys who think he's doing scientific work. He's a back yard tester. Period. Which would be fine but he has an attitude and calls people names who disagree with him. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Mark's comments to Molon has changed my mind about considering a LaRue Stealth barrel for my next SPR build. Even though LaRue's current price to accuracy ratio for their barrels is very attractive and well documented, Mark's self-aggrandizement and pokes at respected members really disappoints me.
Molon's presence here has consistently been full of helpful controlled, scientific, and unbiased reviews that you rarely see in the shooting world (using multiple barrels on each review typically - not just a sample of 1), where most people have an agenda to try and sell equipment and/or advertisements in their publications. Um. You're joking right? I'm absolutely lost for words. He's respected by guys who think he's doing scientific work. He's a back yard tester. Period. Which would be fine but he has an attitude and calls people names who disagree with him. Where is your data? We have Molon's data, let's see what you've got. |
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