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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:55:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryHere's a whole tube of washers JB Welded together. 
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:56:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While you have a couple of valid points I don't buy your argument 100%. Look at the cost of AR15's these days. Shit, Mega and Aero make parts for the aviation industry. They already had the machines. When the airline industry took a shit in the late 00's they turned to making AR15 uppers and lowers. It was a way for them to keep their machines running 24 hours in order to make money. Both of those companies could dedicate machines to make suppressors and they could crank them out for pretty cheap. As an industry matures companies are going to innovate. Bob's hand made silencer shop cranks out 4 hand made silencers a day while Bills silencer shop outsources the production of the baffles and the tube while they do the final machining and the assembly in house and they crank out 40 a day. All that really needs to happen is that the NFA laws either go away or the waiting period is "same day", then the prices will go down. Companies have been innovating though. SiCo was producing 12K a month at one point, and running multiple shifts. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:59:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You think selling silencers is comparable to the barrier to entry of starting a pharmaceutical company? Sorry, if you can make 2000% profit selling cans, then I'm all in, the problem is the thesis is utter bullshit. There may be a barrier to entry for starting a company that makes nfa items, but it sure as hell is nothing like starting a new pfizer. I'm not saying you can't make some money selling silencers, or that companies in business are barely scraping by. What I'm saying is that there is no way they are making the margins people in this thread claim. I'll go one further, even if they were I still don't give a single fuck and my point that everyone who thinks it's a great get rich quick scam should still pool their money and show me I'm wrong. Further, you want to make some real $$ mfg shit, make aerospace parts. If you think silencers are expensive you should see what we pay for valve manifolds, and they're aluminum!! According to GD they shouldn't cost more than $8 to make, and I know for the simplest one we buy we pay close to or over $1000/ea. But why stop there, we assemble that with some other parts that GD could easily whip out for like $50 or less, and we sell that shit for like $5k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No NFA bullshit either, come on GD, make aerospace great again. I never said anyone could just startup and make a huge profit. Although several companies have done exactly that. Many companies surely already had the CNC machines because they were in the industry of a similar industry before they started making suppressors. I will keep repeating "tube with washers" because that's the technology, and you know it. Sure when I say "washer" I really mean cone/plug because they are self spacing without the need for any welding. If you used a million dollar CNC machine to make a unicore baffle out of bar steel (or whatever) and your can gets 4db more sound suppression than other designs then that's great work. But I just want to pay for something reasonable. The only challenge you have as a builder really is dealing with the pressure. You have to pick the right metal and use the right thickness, but those numbers have surely been common knowledge for a century. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:00:55 AM EDT
[#4]
People pretending suppressors are "worth" a grand are like people pretending a used 20 year old 911 turbo is "worth" $80k. All those crazy overhead costs and stuff. They might have to up the price of their $1,900 leather-wrapped a/c vents (that are plastic) to $2500. They'll go broke and bankrupt if they dont guys! And uh, jobs and shit.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:06:13 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never said anyone could just startup and make a huge profit. Although several companies have done exactly that. Many companies surely already had the CNC machines because they were in the industry of a similar industry before they started making suppressors. I will keep repeating "tube with washers" because that's the technology, and you know it. Sure when I say "washer" I really mean cone/plug because they are self spacing without the need for any welding. If you used a million dollar CNC machine to make a unicore baffle out of bar steel (or whatever) and your can gets 4db more sound suppression than other designs then that's great work. But I just want to pay for something reasonable. The only challenge you have as a builder really is dealing with the pressure. You have to pick the right metal and use the right thickness, but those numbers have surely been common knowledge for a century. The whole thing with the washer is that most are likely machined from barstock, so like 90% of the washer was removed in order to make the washer. In other words it shares precisely fuck all with a washer in terms of cost/time to produce. If you just want an actual tube with washers, form 1 and make your own, lots of people do. I want magical elfin welded super metal. Reading your last sentence where you indicate choosing wall thickness of the tube is where the magic is indicates I may be wasting my time typing in response to your posts. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:07:32 AM EDT
[#6]
No use in arguing with the suppressor fanboys OP, you have to remember most people here are millionaires with masters degrees. They are devoted followers of the suppressor manufactures that can do no wrong.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:08:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The whole thing with the washer is that most are likely machined from barstock, so like 90% of the washer was removed in order to make the washer. In other words it shares precisely fuck all with a washer in terms of cost/time to produce. If you just want an actual tube with washers, form 1 and make your own, lots of people do. I want magical elfin welded super metal. Reading your last sentence where you indicate choosing wall thickness of the tube is where the magic is indicates I may be wasting my time typing in response to your posts. Hoop stress calculations = magic. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:09:46 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My Sparrow SS has a loud FRP, in spite of its premium price. I tried wire pulling lube for the first time this week with 9mm through my .45 TiRant, amazing stuff |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:10:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No use in arguing with the suppressor fanboys OP, you have to remember most people here are millionaires with masters degrees. They are devoted followers of the suppressor manufactures that can do no wrong. Don't be as stupid as OP. My only suppressor is a form 1 I made, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize that high-end commercial suppressors are more than "pipe and washers". |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:10:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Please tell me you've at least made a Form 1 silencer for yourself. So you have at least have some frame of reference for what it takes to build a single silencer.
Which companies have made a huge profit? How much and when? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never said anyone could just startup and make a huge profit. Although several companies have done exactly that. Many companies surely already had the CNC machines because they were in the industry of a similar industry before they started making suppressors. I will keep repeating "tube with washers" because that's the technology, and you know it. Sure when I say "washer" I really mean cone/plug because they are self spacing without the need for any welding. If you used a million dollar CNC machine to make a unicore baffle out of bar steel (or whatever) and your can gets 4db more sound suppression than other designs then that's great work. But I just want to pay for something reasonable. The only challenge you have as a builder really is dealing with the pressure. You have to pick the right metal and use the right thickness, but those numbers have surely been common knowledge for a century. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:11:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Not much use in trying to explain market economics or costs of running a business or manufacturing parts. There are lots of 22 silencers made from non exotic materials that cost about what the stamp to buy one does. OP's posts boil down to, the silencer mfgs are fucking us all, I just want to pay what I think is reasonable, I could make millions selling stupid washers in a tube except it's impossible because reasons and wall thickness science.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:12:27 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's a whole tube of washers JB Welded together. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/20/f1/09/20f109ca2e03fbdf01c0c570347687e4.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's a whole tube of washers JB Welded together. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/20/f1/09/20f109ca2e03fbdf01c0c570347687e4.jpg *sploosh* I don't know why, but cut away cans are basically porn to me. 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:12:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No use in arguing with the suppressor fanboys OP, you have to remember most people here are millionaires with masters degrees. They are devoted followers of the suppressor manufactures that can do no wrong. Nope, some of just might have a better idea of what we are talking about because we have a little bit more insight to the industry, and as is based on the content of the posts in this thread, a little bit more common sense. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:16:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hoop stress calculations = magic. Here's the one weird secret silencer mfg's don't want you to know. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:19:49 AM EDT
[#15]
As a machinist, I know how things go for cutting hard inconel. I also worked for a place under ITAR... Lots of pain in the ass regulations there.
With that said, right now it would take a pretty banging sale to get me to buy another can. Every gun I own can be fitted with one of my suppressors (except the LCP). I just bought a house recently, so most of my spare funds is being thrown into that, be it additional principal, paint, the new garage, etc. Show me a sub $500 Dead Air centerfire rifle can though... I'll get one ordered fast enough to melt my keyboard. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:21:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of people are missing my point. Maybe it is my fault because I said "2,000%", which was obviously meant to be hyperbolic. I'm not here to bash suppressor manufacturers. I want them to succeed. It's just obvious they are marketing almost exclusively to the rich, which I think is a massive mistake, especially if they truly want suppressors to become legal. I'd gladly pay professionals to build my suppressor even if I could buy the parts at a hardware store legally. But I won't pay $1,000 now, and I won't pay $1,000 when they are legal. Don't butt rape me bro. If your product costs that much to make then do a better job of cost control, innovate, or use cheaper/heavier parts. It just can't be that hard to make a tube with baffles. And you don't have to stop offering the premium flagship products, butstart offering quality products that are soberly priced, and they will sell off the shelfs. Start selling at a price appeals to everyone and not just 60 year old rich retirees that drive Corvettes. I am dumber for having read that trash. All of your posts are couched with "would", "should", "might", "maybe" and a host of other adjectives that reveal just how much you DON'T know. You don't seem to get the cost of fixed overhead (machines, operators, marketing, regulation) on a low-volume business. I bet they pay quite a bit for advertising too, since they have to overcome the resistance of a friendly market put off by paying Uncle Sugar $200. News flash - no one wants a soberly priced product that falls apart after half as many rounds when it cost $200 extra and took 10 months to get. If I pay and wait, I want it to last as close to forever as I can get. So does most of the rest of the notoriously picky firearms crowd that can afford these things. And marketing to the rich? Why market to the poor and have to work harder to produce more product and take home the same? Yes, they will be cheaper if HPA passes. If it doesn't, I'll be enjoying my quiet-ass cans in a variety of calibers long after your Bernie meetings have adjourned. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:22:44 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The whole thing with the washer is that most are likely machined from barstock, so like 90% of the washer was removed in order to make the washer. In other words it shares precisely fuck all with a washer in terms of cost/time to produce. If you just want an actual tube with washers, form 1 and make your own, lots of people do. I want magical elfin welded super metal. Reading your last sentence where you indicate choosing wall thickness of the tube is where the magic is indicates I may be wasting my time typing in response to your posts. As far as I know most companies do CNC individual baffles, but I assume the reason they do it that way is to save time and money, not because it costs more. How the fuck did Hirem Maxim make a suppressor without a CNC machine? I am guessing they had to do it with basic lathes and such. Not like I know fuck all about how to do any of that myself, but I know damn well that there are numerous industries that make auto parts, HVAC, and just about everything, and they all use similar machinery. I can buy quite a bit of machinery for a thousand dollars. But you keep arguing that making baffles is the pinnacle of machinist life? |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:24:07 AM EDT
[#18]
OP is being so obtuse ITT he's got to be trolling.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:27:09 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
*sploosh* I don't know why, but cut away cans are basically porn to me. Same here. If you have any moderately sized SiCo dealers in your area, they should have one of these. Stocking Dealer packages came with them last year at shot. 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:32:06 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those solvent trap "kits" were selling in the $200 price range awhile back. You can by a nice aluminum machined .22 kit for 50 bucks. 90 bucks for a rifle kit. Machined baffles, no freeze plugs. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:32:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. If you have any moderately sized SiCo dealers in your area, they should have one of these. Stocking Dealer packages came with them last year at shot. http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c0.134.1080.1080/15803482_1876262005977469_8068566562023407616_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQyODA1MDczMjYxOTE4Nzg5OQ%3D%3D.2.c but but washers! |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:35:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. If you have any moderately sized SiCo dealers in your area, they should have one of these. Stocking Dealer packages came with them last year at shot. http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c0.134.1080.1080/15803482_1876262005977469_8068566562023407616_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQyODA1MDczMjYxOTE4Nzg5OQ%3D%3D.2.c Is that the S-co 12 gauge at the bottom? |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:36:46 AM EDT
[#23]
It seems like the most logical way to cut costs is for suppressor companies offering their products direct instead of working through a distributor and cut out the middle man. At some point they will draw up the best ways to cut costs and you can only fire so many people until you're dangerously under-staffed.
The supply chain of suppressors could be optimized via drop shipping from the manufacturer to the Class 3 SOT and remove the middleman. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:38:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As far as I know most companies do CNC individual baffles, but I assume the reason they do it that way is to save time and money, not because it costs more. How the fuck did Hirem Maxim make a suppressor without a CNC machine? I am guessing they had to do it with basic lathes and such. Not like I know fuck all about how to do any of that myself, but I know damn well that there are numerous industries that make auto parts, HVAC, and just about everything, and they all use similar machinery. I can buy quite a bit of machinery for a thousand dollars. But you keep arguing that making baffles is the pinnacle of machinist life? In small quantities machining the parts from stock is the cheapest way to make a high quality product. It isn't cheap though, you're recycling (scrap) most of the material you buy and it isn't fast. If most of the parts used, probably all of them, in most silencers are being machined from barstock except maybe the tube, this can give you an insight into that industry, that would be that they aren't making them in high volume. Like I said before, remove the tax and the wait time and a lot of people, myself included will likely be less concerned with design and construction. Until then people will be willing to spend more to get a product they perceive as being superior, which means to survive in the market means you need to focus on making the best possible product. If you think that all the other mfg's are wrong and you are right, join up with the others in the post, startup your own shop and run them all into the ground, it's the American way. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:40:21 AM EDT
[#25]
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It's not the price it's the paperwork & the wait. My first m4-2000 cost me $950. Now you can get them for $550. it is not that it is the rules I travel to work & bring my firearms anything with a stamp impedes freedom of legal movement. 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:43:07 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very few cost as much as $1,500. Average price is around $800 or so, maybe a little less depending where you purchase. As far as cost go, you're pulling that completely out of your ass. You have material costs, tooling costs, the price of the electricity to keep the machines running, the cost to provide a living for a couple hundred people, taxes, your profit... then you have the dealer and distributor which each need to make money so they can keep their businesses running. Simply making up numbers off the top of your head is a terrible way to convey a point. By the way, it's literally impossible to have a 2000% margin. Impossible to have 2000% margins? Um... Diamonds 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:44:48 AM EDT
[#27]
My 9mm cost $20 in parts.
But that $200 is why I only have two. 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:47:51 AM EDT
[#28]
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Why are machine guns so expensive? Most of them are very old designs and the raw materials don't cost that much. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:48:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that the S-co 12 gauge at the bottom? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is that the S-co 12 gauge at the bottom? Sure is. Quoted:
Impossible to have 2000% margins? Um... Diamonds Still impossible. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:57:38 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can buy quite a bit of machinery for a thousand dollars. LOL WHAT?! Holy shit, dude. The more you post, the more you prove how little you know. You should have just stopped with the original post and wrote it off as basic ignorance instead of doubling down on stupid. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:00:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
it is not that it is the rules I travel to work & bring my firearms anything with a stamp impedes freedom of legal movement. How? Unless you're traveling to a state where suppressors are illegal, how is your legal movement impeded? |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:03:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same here. If you have any moderately sized SiCo dealers in your area, they should have one of these. Stocking Dealer packages came with them last year at shot. http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c0.134.1080.1080/15803482_1876262005977469_8068566562023407616_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQyODA1MDczMjYxOTE4Nzg5OQ%3D%3D.2.c Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
*sploosh* I don't know why, but cut away cans are basically porn to me. Same here. If you have any moderately sized SiCo dealers in your area, they should have one of these. Stocking Dealer packages came with them last year at shot. http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c0.134.1080.1080/15803482_1876262005977469_8068566562023407616_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQyODA1MDczMjYxOTE4Nzg5OQ%3D%3D.2.c I want to rub my finders across them. There's got to be video of a hot chick doing this. If not, someone needs to make this happen. Could even be a good ASMR. I'll be in my bunk.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:09:22 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what are your similar items that have similar markets and similar regulations? You're also going to have to define "a lot" of profit. By the way 200% markup is not "a lot". Your view of how products are priced is extremely one dimensional. I seemed to have missed when SilencerCo, Dead Air, and AAC started rapidly increasing their prices as demand skyrocketed at the beginning of last year. Your narrative is completely destroyed when a competing company doesn't enter into the market with a product that is priced significantly lower than the competition, if there is absurd amounts of profit to be made. There's an old saying I'm fond of, "To see a need is to hear a call". 200% markup is charging $6 for a $2 item, if the site I just read informed me correctly. Which is about what I expected on suppressors, and most definitely IS "a lot" from a buyer's perspective. Why would a competing company charge significantly less when they could charge slightly less to get their foot in the door and still make a great profit? |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:13:43 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I want to rub my finders across them. There's got to be video of a hot chick doing this. If not, someone needs to make this happen. Could even be a good ASMR.I'll be in my bunk. Be careful, some of those edges could be charp. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:13:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL WHAT?! Holy shit, dude. The more you post, the more you prove how little you know. You should have just stopped with the original post and wrote it off as basic ignorance instead of doubling down on stupid. School me. You are apparently a machinist. I never claimed to be. I am a consumer. Are there no CNC parts in modern motors? Are there no CNC parts in my guns? Why is it that all these things are reasonably priced but you keep telling me suppressors are so much more expensive to make? I totally agree with other who say it's politics and "because they can" (for now), etc. But you keep arguing that there is not a large profit margin, that it costs several hundred dollars to machine an acceptable suppressor. So far you've listed what it would cost to buy premium Titanium parts individually at retail cost. You also said that it costs $4 million dollars for some CNC machines, which I do not doubt, although I would think that a far less expensive machine could be used to make a suppressor, and I'm asking why every other industry can make a profit from parts made using these same machines without gouging the user. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:18:49 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
200% markup is charging $6 for a $2 item, if the site I just read informed me correctly. Which is about what I expected on suppressors, and most definitely IS "a lot" from a buyer's perspective. Why would a competing company charge significantly less when they could charge slightly less to get their foot in the door and still make a great profit? Exactly, when a dozen other competing companies are all offering similar products around the same price point does that mean they are all colluding to fuck everyone or that the similar products being sold by different companies actually need to sell for about what they are selling for in order to be a viable product? If you think the answer is collusion you should start a competing venture, undercut them and make a shit pile of cash. Nothing but banging hot Ukrainian chicks on your yacht after 6 months. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:23:49 AM EDT
[#37]
Lol.
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:24:59 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
School me. You are apparently a machinist. I never claimed to be. I am a consumer. Are there no CNC parts in modern motors? Are there no CNC parts in my guns? Why is it that all these things are reasonably priced but you keep telling me suppressors are so much more expensive to make? I totally agree with other who say it's politics and "because they can" (for now), etc. But you keep arguing that there is not a large profit margin, that it costs several hundred dollars to machine an acceptable suppressor. So far you've listed what it would cost to buy premium Titanium parts individually at retail cost. You also said that it costs $4 million dollars for some CNC machines, which I do not doubt, although I would think that a far less expensive machine could be used to make a suppressor, and I'm asking why every other industry can make a profit from parts made using these same machines without gouging the user. Why does this cost $165,000 used (it's made out of some cheap steel tubing, wood and fabric forfucksake): 
When I can buy one of these brand new for $16,825: 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:32:32 AM EDT
[#39]
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Here's a whole tube of washers JB Welded together. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/20/f1/09/20f109ca2e03fbdf01c0c570347687e4.jpg Here is a company making some pretty exotic milled handguards. https://unique-ars.com/product-category/hand-guards/ I know the processes aren't the same, but I have seen some of these handguards (not necessarily this exact brand) for sale new at a gun show for under $100. With all the intricate skulls and spider web CNC milling, etc. It doesn't look like the manufacturing process is all that much more complicated or involved. Granted, the materials are different. But I'm (literally) not buying the line that suppressors have to cost as much as they do. I bought a commercially made suppressor knowing full well that I was paying a lot more than I needed to, but I did so because I wanted one bad enough (I am part of the market "problem" being willing to pay the high price, in spite of knowing it was higher than it needed to be). |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:34:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. (They could basically weld washers inside a pipe). The profit margin has to be around 2000%, and it really only requires one man to build many designs beginning to end. Add to that the fact that your buyers have to suffer a $200 penalty from the government, and you'd think they would cut us some slack. Can we expect prices to drop if legalization is going to take another ten years? I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Even top tier manufacturers could produce affordable suppressors for the common man if they cared to do so. In fact, the quickest way to force legalizing suppressors is probably to lower the prices and quadruple sales, thereby overhelming the NFA process and normalizing suppressors in every home. Let me explain a simple rule of economics to you first. People charge what people are willing to pay. Secondly, there will always be cheapskates in the world who will never understand this simple rule. All the silencer revenue in the entire industry for a year represents less than the revenue produced by Apple selling iPhones for one week. Crying about silencer prices being too high is like crying about Ferrari prices being to high. You don't need one, you WANT ONE... The silencer industry is basically a tiny percentage of the gun industry. Its another accessory. If you want to buy cheap silencers, there are plenty of choices, if you want to buy expensive silencers there are also plenty of choices. Your cheap ass PSA AR-15 is always going to be a cheap ass PSA AR-15 and your cheap ass Ford Mustang is always going to be a cheap ass Ford Mustang when you compare to Ferrari. They are both sports cars, one costs way more than the other. Honestly, your assessment that silencers are all 100 year old designs is about as stupid as saying mass produced cars are a 100 year old design and should be much cheaper now than they cost in 1908. You obviously know NOTHING about silencer design or manufacturing. You claim to make more money in a year than 85% of Americans and you are bitching about silencer prices? The bottom line is you are merely a cheapskate wannabe silencer owner. You want to make silencers cheaper? Start a silencer business, run it and then get back to us about how cheap you can make these pipes with washers welded in them. Go ahead...we're waiting..... |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:36:47 AM EDT
[#41]
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Companies have been innovating though. SiCo was producing 12K a month at one point, and running multiple shifts. So if at a conservative estimate, they are making an average across their product line of $100 per unit profit (after ALL expenses, taxes, etc), that's still $1.2 million dollars a month. Not too shabby. And I expect they are probably making a lot more per unit than a measly $100 after expenses. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:38:48 AM EDT
[#42]
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Why does this cost $165,000 used (it's made out of some cheap steel tubing, wood and fabric forfucksake): http://barnstormers.com/classified_files/1/2/2/0/8/9/5/.watermarked_8a348577e9fc4dff3bb4e25350e19c20.jpg When I can buy one of these brand new for $16,825: http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/750x422/quality/95/https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/407/274/5/S4072745/slug/l/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-02-1.jpg Mass production. Robots make most of the cars while lots of manual effort is surely put into a plane. Also, liability. But yea, your point has some validity. The market is smaller which is why the factories aren't churning out thousands of those planes every year. But a suppressor is a lot simpler. I would expect a suppressor to cost more than a 2cycle engine perhaps, but not ten times a much. No moving parts, and very little innovation is actually required. 
https://www.amazon.com/Seeutek-PK80-2-Cycle-Motorized-Bicycle/dp/B00B0GCZ3I?tag=vglnk-c102-20 |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:44:35 AM EDT
[#43]
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I tried wire pulling lube for the first time this week with 9mm through my .45 TiRant, amazing stuff I haven't tried wire pulling lube yet. I still need to clean mine for the first time. I want to do the brake fluid bake thing on it after I get it cleaned up good. I tried a spritz of water and it was a little better than a cold first shot, but not earth shattering. Oddly enough, it sounds better after 100 or so shots of fouling than it did brand new. I wish they were cheap enough to be disposable though. Cleaning lead out of it is going to be a PITA. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:50:53 AM EDT
[#44]
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Let me explain a simple rule of economics to you first. People charge what people are willing to pay. Secondly, there will always be cheapskates in the world who will never understand this simple rule. All the silencer revenue in the entire industry for a year represents less than the revenue produced by Apple selling iPhones for one week. Crying about silencer prices being too high is like crying about Ferrari prices being to high. You don't need one, you WANT ONE... The silencer industry is basically a tiny percentage of the gun industry. Its another accessory. If you want to buy cheap silencers, there are plenty of choices, if you want to buy expensive silencers there are also plenty of choices. Your cheap ass PSA AR-15 is always going to be a cheap ass PSA AR-15 and your cheap ass Ford Mustang is always going to be a cheap ass Ford Mustang when you compare to Ferrari. They are both sports cars, one costs way more than the other. Honestly, your assessment that silencers are all 100 year old designs is about as stupid as saying mass produced cars are a 100 year old design and should be much cheaper now than they cost in 1908. You obviously know NOTHING about silencer design or manufacturing. You claim to make more money in a year than 85% of Americans and you are bitching about silencer prices? The bottom line is you are merely a cheapskate wannabe silencer owner. You want to make silencers cheaper? Start a silencer business, run it and then get back to us about how cheap you can make these pipes with washers welded in them. Go ahead...we're waiting..... I don't need a lesson in economics. I understand pretty well why things are the way they are and I'm not even bitching about that. I'm hoping the manufacturers who are pushing for legalization are ready for commoditization of the suppressor market. Telling people that it costs a thousands dollars because CNC isn't going to cut it once they are legal. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:55:47 AM EDT
[#45]
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Exactly, when a dozen other competing companies are all offering similar products around the same price point does that mean they are all colluding to fuck everyone or that the similar products being sold by different companies actually need to sell for about what they are selling for in order to be a viable product? If you think the answer is collusion you should start a competing venture, undercut them and make a shit pile of cash. Nothing but banging hot Ukrainian chicks on your yacht after 6 months. I don't have the funds to start up a company, or I would. Care to invest? I figure I'll need about $15 million to get a good, big splashy entry into the market. And if I did, I wouldn't "undercut" anyone. I'd price my products as high as I possibly could and still move a good amount of product, just like everyone else does. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:56:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does this cost $165,000 used (it's made out of some cheap steel tubing, wood and fabric forfucksake): http://barnstormers.com/classified_files/1/2/2/0/8/9/5/.watermarked_8a348577e9fc4dff3bb4e25350e19c20.jpg When I can buy one of these brand new for $16,825: http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/750x422/quality/95/https://s.blogcdn.com/slideshows/images/slides/407/274/5/S4072745/slug/l/2017-honda-civic-hatchback-02-1.jpg FAA red tape. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:56:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mass production. Robots make most of the cars while lots of manual effort is surely put into a plane. Also, liability. But yea, your point has some validity. The market is smaller which is why the factories aren't churning out thousands of those planes every year. But a suppressor is a lot simpler. I would expect a suppressor to cost more than a 2cycle engine perhaps, but not ten times a much. No moving parts, and very little innovation is actually required. https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61rVI0%2BCh9L._SY300_.jpg https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B0GCZ3I?tag=vglnk-c102-20 The pitts is infinitely simpler than the honda as is the process by which it is made. The amount of bureaucratic hurdles the honda has to clear is also I would guess much higher than aviat has to worry about. By your reasoning the market for the pitts would be 10x what it is for the honda if aviat would just charge a 'reasonable' price, which using your numbers works out to about $4,000. I'd buy 3 of them at that price. The other half of your goes something like this:  = 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:57:47 AM EDT
[#48]
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Impossible to have 2000% margins? Um... Diamonds Sploosh. 2000% profit margin...washers and all...  
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:58:15 AM EDT
[#49]
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GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? It's the new economy. I have rifles with $1500 in them that I'd be lucky to get $300 for today. And that's not because I overpaid but the market has dropped that much. The gun world isn't even in the same universe as ten years ago. It just is. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:58:21 AM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted because I thought '13er's wrote some dumb shit.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. (They could basically weld washers inside a pipe). The profit margin has to be around 2000%, and it really only requires one man to build many designs beginning to end. Add to that the fact that your buyers have to suffer a $200 penalty from the government, and you'd think they would cut us some slack. Can we expect prices to drop if legalization is going to take another ten years? I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Even top tier manufacturers could produce affordable suppressors for the common man if they cared to do so. In fact, the quickest way to force legalizing suppressors is probably to lower the prices and quadruple sales, thereby overhelming the NFA process and normalizing suppressors in every home. Quoted because I thought '13er's wrote some dumb shit. I know, now we can add 14, 15, 16 and 17? This place needs a test. On another note have any of you worked with inconnel? Try forming and welding it. I had the mispleasure once and it wasn't fun or easy. |
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