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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:08:41 PM EDT
[#1]
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But I can get a Tasco for $7! Who would ever pay $2,500 for a scope, this one even comes with rings. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/275845/Screen-Shot-2017-02-21-at-7-151483.png I wouldn't buy a $6 scope, or a $2,500 one. I'd buy a $200 scope, which is far more than I would want to spend, but is about the minimum necessary to get a functional and long-lasting scope. Same goes for suppressors in my book. But how many suppressors are in the $200 range? I'm saying the majority of them should be, and quite a few of them should cost much less (although the $200 tax stamp effectively eliminates the disposable group entirely). Premium products have their place for certain, but the vast majority of suppressors should sell for around $200 because that's what the market will bear. Instead the average cost of a suppressor is probably $800. I guarantee you that an $800 price tag is keeping more people from buying suppressors than the $200 tax stamp and eight month wait. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:09:17 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd get one but I don't want to give .gov $200 for the privilege of owning a glorified oil filter.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:09:22 PM EDT
[#3]
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If the profit margins are so high, why doesn't anyone open manufacturing plant of their own? Why pass up this big bucks? The same reason people don't open up pharmaceutical companies, computer companies, etc. Not everyone is cut out to run a successful business. Very, very few people actually have the ambition, drive and self-motivation for something like that. It takes a superior intelligence to be able to juggle all of the different responsibilities at once. I know I'm not cut out for it. 
And, if there isn't "big bucks" to be made, why are any suppressor companies in business now to begin with? If their profits are so dismal, why aren't they just giving up and getting a job at a car dealership or something? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:10:33 PM EDT
[#4]
I suspect that what we're seeing with the suppressor market is a preview of what we would see in the MG market, if the Hughes Amendment was overturned (or was in serious danger of being overturned). There would be a lot of resistance to price drops. Heck, even back in the day (before the '86 Hughes Amendment), Colt artificially propped up the civilian price of the M16 by allowing Class 3 SOT's to buy only 2 guns (a rifle and a carbine) and then requiring proof of a sale to law enforcement before another one could be ordered. Manufacturers want to protect their margins at all costs. They don't care if (theoretically) they could make it up on volume.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:10:54 PM EDT
[#5]
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If the profit margins are so high, why doesn't anyone open manufacturing plant of their own? Why pass up this big bucks? Butthurt, ouch. they are overpriced for what they are, benefit of supply and demand. good for them, I'll buy when they are cheaper. Or maybe not at all. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:11:13 PM EDT
[#6]
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That's like 2 muzzle devices worth of "rebate". At least Q is rebating $200 off the price of cans. This is coming from a guy who owns an Omega. I love my suppressor but that rebate is a joke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Derp at 2000% and they are dropping prices: https://silencerco.com/rebate-promo/ That's like 2 muzzle devices worth of "rebate". At least Q is rebating $200 off the price of cans. This is coming from a guy who owns an Omega. I love my suppressor but that rebate is a joke. 9 bucks for a pair of V1000 orings. I can buy a 20 pack of them from Marco Rubber for $25 plus $7 shipping. If people are too stupid to go down to home depot and buy them for $2 each or step up to Kalrez and not have to replace them at all...then those prices aren't ever coming down. Ever. People can bitch all they want about what materials costs are but a can is going to sell for the highest price the market will bear. These companies are in it for profit, not charity. But the best part is that guys think a high end can is $75 in materials and ignore the half million dollars worth of machine and the operator making $30/hr or better who's true cost to his employer is in the $80/hr range. Everybody else's labor is worthless to them. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:11:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Why does an auto that should cost 20K actually cost 50K? Why does gun powder cost 28 bucks a pound instead of 2 bucks? Why does a house cost 250K when there are only 100K in materials in that house? It's called Free market, and it's why you make however much you make per hour, instead of making whatever the illegal alien would be willing to do that same job for. I want to drive a Ferrari, but I think they cost too much for what they are, so that's why I drive an old GMC. Maybe a can isn't in your future, priorities and all.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:13:45 PM EDT
[#8]
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A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. LOL OK |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:14:02 PM EDT
[#9]
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Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Margin is (price-cost)/price = (1500-75)/1500 = 1425/1500 = 95%. Margin can be between 0-100%. No more. An item with zero cost has a 100% margin. Markup is what you are referring to. Markup is (price-cost)/cost = 1425/75 = 1966% BTW, business runs on margin. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:17:22 PM EDT
[#10]
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Having been an 07FFL/02SOT a few years ago... I can say with certainty that there's a TON of markup on cans... and most of the prices you see are flat retail/list prices. Stocking dealer price (usually around a $10k+ buy-in) Regular dealer price (one at a time to the FFL) List price (what the average Joe pays) It's been a few years since I've bought cans... but I recall some of the cheaper .22 cans would cost me around $89 if I bought 10+ and they would fly off the shelf at $249 ea. The other thing to remember... and much of WHY there's little discount in suppressors is... they require babysitting and alot more paperwork than a regular title 1 sale. Alot more time and paperwork goes on behind the scenes than what the customer will ever see. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:19:11 PM EDT
[#11]
OP has either figured out the greatest high profit secret ever
Or has no idea what he's talking about |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:19:55 PM EDT
[#12]
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I guess you are missing the point. For a lot of us, the extra $1500 to buy a fancy boutique AR isn't worth it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess you are missing the point. For a lot of us, the extra $1500 to buy a fancy boutique AR isn't worth it. But for a lot of people it is, and thus the market goes to where the money is at. A lot of people can't justify the added expense of a Lexus, but you don't demand that Lexus lower their prices, you go buy a Kia Forte. Nobody is forcing consumers to buy these things at these prices. Consumers are "screwing themselves" by eating them up at these inflated prices.
I stand by my assertion that there is a lot of profit built into a $1500 suppressor, no matter how much is made in-house, and no matter what materials are used. I would not be surprised to learn that a manufacturer's per-unit cost on a $1500 retail suppressor is less than $500. Where do you keep pulling the $1500 dollar number at? Most rifle cans float around $800. Cost would probably be in the mid-high $600 range. You would have to give some profit to the distributor as well, so you're probably in the $500's. That's before calculating Material Costs, Machine Costs, Employee Costs, Taxes, Tooling Costs, Utilities, R&D, Marketing, and all the other BS that goes into Manufacturing/Running a business. If you're so certain that there is all this room to undercut everyone, why aren't you starting your own business? Don't use R&D is an excuse, we've already established how simple they are, and you don't need manufacturing experience because we already know you can outsource it. Good luck. And those $2000 AR15 guys? They have to make a profit too. So while they might be priced $2k retail, their per-unit price to manufacture has to be significantly lower than that in order to make it worthwhile to get up and go to work every day. You mean companies have to make a profit to run? Never knew that. But you are right, it's all just speculation on both sides unless a company shows us it's books. Since we can't look at their books, what we can do is look at the price of things with similar overhead and similar manufacturing processes, and try to extrapolate how much profit is built in that way. When a more complicated end product can be sold for less money, logic dictates that the simpler product for more money has more profit built into the price. It really is that simple. You keep using that WE word. One of us has seen numbers, and I have a 50/50 shot at guessing it wasn't you. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:23:16 PM EDT
[#13]
A lot of people are missing my point. Maybe it is my fault because I said "2,000%", which was obviously meant to be hyperbolic. I'm not here to bash suppressor manufacturers. I want them to succeed. It's just obvious they are marketing almost exclusively to the rich, which I think is a massive mistake, especially if they truly want suppressors to become legal. I'd gladly pay professionals to build my suppressor even if I could buy the parts at a hardware store legally. But I won't pay $1,000 now, and I won't pay $1,000 when they are legal. Don't butt rape me bro. If your product costs that much to make then do a better job of cost control, innovate, or use cheaper/heavier parts. It just can't be that hard to make a tube with baffles. And you don't have to stop offering the premium flagship products, butstart offering quality products that are soberly priced, and they will sell off the shelfs. Start selling at a price appeals to everyone and not just 60 year old rich retirees that drive Corvettes.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:23:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope everyone that is bitching about silencer prices and ATF wait times have contacted their Senators and their Representative to urge them to PASS the HPA! 
Edit, tsg beat me by more than a minute.  I sure am. I've emailed every one of them that are part of the subcommittee that it's sitting in and senator and congress person of alabama. Some of the heavy hitter reps haven't signed on as cosponsors yet, Trey Gowdy for example. We need to be pushing them to get it out of committee. Everyone needs to be hitting every day. Set up a user account and have congress.gov send you updates on the bills progress. All of these things shows interest. Get to it!!! |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:24:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wouldn't buy a $6 scope, or a $2,500 one. I'd buy a $200 scope, which is far more than I would want to spend, but is about the minimum necessary to get a functional and long-lasting scope. Same goes for suppressors in my book. But how many suppressors are in the $200 range? I'm saying the majority of them should be, and quite a few of them should cost much less (although the $200 tax stamp effectively eliminates the disposable group entirely). Premium products have their place for certain, but the vast majority of suppressors should sell for around $200 because that's what the market will bear. Instead the average cost of a suppressor is probably $800. I guarantee you that an $800 price tag is keeping more people from buying suppressors than the $200 tax stamp and eight month wait. How do you know what the market will bear? Do you have some kind of super secret insider information? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:25:05 PM EDT
[#16]
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Butthurt, ouch. they are overpriced for what they are, benefit of supply and demand. good for them, I'll buy when they are cheaper. Or maybe not at all. No butt hurt. But "overpriced" is relative. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:25:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9 bucks for a pair of V1000 orings. I can buy a 20 pack of them from Marco Rubber for $25 plus $7 shipping. If people are too stupid to go down to home depot and buy them for $2 each or step up to Kalrez and not have to replace them at all...then those prices aren't ever coming down. Ever. People can bitch all they want about what materials costs are but a can is going to sell for the highest price the market will bear. These companies are in it for profit, not charity. But the best part is that guys think a high end can is $75 in materials and ignore the half million dollars worth of machine and the operator making $30/hr or better who's true cost to his employer is in the $80/hr range. Everybody else's labor is worthless to them. And that's the whole point of this. That the price has less to do with materials and manufacturing costs, and more to do with what people are willing to pay. I don't care if suppressor companies are making 2, 3 or 4 times what it sots them to manufacture a suppressor. But I don't like it when people pretend they are just barely making a profit on these things. They are making a killing, and good for them! But I'm not going to pretend that I didn't overpay for my suppressor versus what it cost to make it. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:26:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 2000% Profit Margin? Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. I have obviously made poor life choices and made a bone head move starting the wrong business with way to much overhead and little profit margin.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:27:54 PM EDT
[#19]
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I wouldn't buy a $6 scope, or a $2,500 one. I'd buy a $200 scope, which is far more than I would want to spend, but is about the minimum necessary to get a functional and long-lasting scope. you get what you pay for But how many suppressors are in the $200 range? Then spend $200 on a cheap solvent trap kit, $30 to engrave and $200 on a stamp and buy a drill bit. Seriously man, there are ways to make a suppressor legally and have a decent can if you want it. Your materials will probally not be awesome or past 10k rounds, it will probally weigh 20 ounces. You will also probably get poi shift and have a first round pop, but hey fuck all those naysayers and r&d dollars right.. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:30:51 PM EDT
[#20]
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if you were starving, how easily would you give up your last $5? Pretty easily considering if you don't lower prices, you will make less sales and revenue will go down. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:33:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of people are missing my point. Maybe it is my fault because I said "2,000%", which was obviously meant to be hyperbolic. I'm not here to bash suppressor manufacturers. I want them to succeed. It's just obvious they are marketing almost exclusively to the rich, which I think is a massive mistake, especially if they truly want suppressors to become legal. I'd gladly pay professionals to build my suppressor even if I could buy the parts at a hardware store legally. But I won't pay $1,000 now, and I won't pay $1,000 when they are legal. Don't butt rape me bro. If your product costs that much to make then do a better job of cost control, innovate, or use cheaper/heavier parts. It just can't be that hard to make a tube with baffles. And you don't have to stop offering the premium flagship products, butstart offering quality products that are soberly priced, and they will sell off the shelfs. Start selling at a price appeals to everyone and not just 60 year old rich retirees that drive Corvettes. It wasn't because you said "2,000%" it's because you said "2,000% Profit Margin" which sounded an alarm that screams "I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about on this subject". As far as marketing exclusively to the rich, hardly so. I would wager I've sold more silencers to people who were Middle Class, than I have to "Rich" people(that is unless rich people is considered making $50K a year.) Regardless of your opinions on the matter, the truth is the price is what the market will bear, and with the exclusive growth shown in the last 5 years, it's apparent people don't mind paying the current prices. The reason sales are currently down has nothing to do with price, and has everything to do with a perfect storm of 41P and the Hearing Protection Act looming. If you took away regulations tomorrow, every company would have no issue moving more inventory than they've ever had the chance of. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:34:37 PM EDT
[#22]
The premise of this thread is so stupid.
There are low cost silencers, about 500. You can slap them on your low end rifles. Stop trying to force your low end mentality on high end manufacturers. Should BMW make you a 15k car because you only want to spend Honda Civic money? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:37:55 PM EDT
[#23]
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LOL OK This. I have a DD upper that i gave a 1000 for and its nothing fancy at all. But i love the thing. I dont even want to know what i have into my Seekins rifle right now. And I didnt panic buy shit when i got thay put together. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:44:00 PM EDT
[#24]
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Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ok let me help you.... Cost of CNc machines Cost of itar Cost of license Cost of sot Cost of insurance for company Cost of taxes for company Cost of benefits for employees Cost of SS for employees Cost of workers comp Cost of training Cost of material Cost of labor Cost of marketing Cost of r&d Cost of percentage on loans Shits cheap yo, now go start your business for $100 inconel and titanium cans at a major loss or go be poor somewhere else. Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Warranty. Due to the NFA tax and wait times, the warranty on suppressors has to be rather extreme in order to be competitive. Looking at the build quality on suppressors built for the New Zealand market, you can tell they are designed with a "No hassle, over the counter, almost disposable" market. Much different than the current US market. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:46:10 PM EDT
[#25]
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Please show me a company that manufactures an AR-15 all in house, all being the keyword, and sells it for $500. http://www.impactguns.com/ruger-ar-556-rifle-556-nato-m4-flat-top-16in-barrel-736676085002.aspx |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:48:20 PM EDT
[#26]
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You keep using that WE word. One of us has seen numbers, and I have a 50/50 shot at guessing it wasn't you. You're right. I haven't seen the numbers, so all I can do is speculate based on items that require similar overhead to produce. Other machined items of similar materials and similar (or greater) complexity selling for less leads me to believe there is a lot of profit built into suppressors. You aren't going to convince me that there isn't a lot of profit built in without showing me "the numbers" firsthand. My only stake in this is as a consumer who wants to pay as little as possible for a product. A manufacturer will want to sell their product for as much as possible. I think as a manufacturer, you figure out what it costs you per unit when every expense is figured in, then you decide on a price that you think people will be willing to pay, and you go from there. If you are consistently selling out, you raise the price until demand starts to taper off, then back off to the level where you saw the greatest profit with consistent demand. But that price point has a lot less to do with manufacturing costs than it has to do with what customers are willing to pay for an item. Look, I like to see businesses succeed. I like it when a company (especially an American company, and even more so a Utah company) is successful. But I also like to pay as little for a product as possible, and I like for my friends and family to pay less too. And I am convinced there is a price point significantly lower on these items than what the current retail is, that remains profitable for manufacturers. Should they lower their prices then? Of course not! They should get every penny they can for their products, just like any other company. But anyone with half a brain can look at a suppressor and a rifle and a lawnmower and any of a number of other products made using similar materials and manufacturing processes and can see that modern high end suppressors don't offer nearly as much value for your dollar as other products with similar materials and processes involved. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:50:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wasn't because you said "2,000%" it's because you said "2,000% Profit Margin" which sounded an alarm that screams "I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about on this subject". As far as marketing exclusively to the rich, hardly so. I would wager I've sold more silencers to people who were Middle Class, than I have to "Rich" people(that is unless rich people is considered making $50K a year.) Regardless of your opinions on the matter, the truth is the price is what the market will bear, and with the exclusive growth shown in the last 5 years, it's apparent people don't mind paying the current prices. The reason sales are currently down has nothing to do with price, and has everything to do with a perfect storm of 41P and the Hearing Protection Act looming. If you took away regulations tomorrow, every company would have no issue moving more inventory than they've ever had the chance of. I think you are about as out of touch as the media was about Trump winning. Yes, most of the people buying suppressors may be middle class like me, but they aren't doing it in the numbers they should be because of restrictive pricing. Many are thinking it over for a few YEARS because it costs so much, saving money and coaxing their wives into agreement with their wicked plans. It need not be so. The amount of people buying represents probably ten percent of the market. Everyone I know owns an AR-15, but I'm the only one with a suppressor. We ALL want one. We all want three or four. We just won't be screwed. Well, we will be screwed when we think there will never be a more fair option. If we think these are going to be legal then we may have a better option. That's why no one is buying too, not just because they are put off by the $200 stamp. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:50:25 PM EDT
[#28]
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I sure am. I've emailed every one of them that are part of the subcommittee that it's sitting in and senator and congress person of alabama. Some of the heavy hitter reps haven't signed on as cosponsors yet, Trey Gowdy for example. We need to be pushing them to get it out of committee. Everyone needs to be hitting every day. Set up a user account and have congress.gov send you updates on the bills progress. All of these things shows interest. Get to it!!! Sent my rep (Jason Chaffetz) an email yesterday asking him to get it out of committee for a vote. Also emailed him and the senators through the "fight the noise" website a couple of weeks ago. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:50:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Supply and demand.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:52:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then spend $200 on a cheap solvent trap kit, $30 to engrave and $200 on a stamp and buy a drill bit. Seriously man, there are ways to make a suppressor legally and have a decent can if you want it. Your materials will probally not be awesome or past 10k rounds, it will probally weigh 20 ounces. You will also probably get poi shift and have a first round pop, but hey fuck all those naysayers and r&d dollars right.. My Sparrow SS has a loud FRP, in spite of its premium price. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:53:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryTheir receivers are Cero Forge, which goes back to my argument. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:57:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lot of people are missing my point. Maybe it is my fault because I said "2,000%", which was obviously meant to be hyperbolic. I'm not here to bash suppressor manufacturers. I want them to succeed. It's just obvious they are marketing almost exclusively to the rich, which I think is a massive mistake, especially if they truly want suppressors to become legal. I'd gladly pay professionals to build my suppressor even if I could buy the parts at a hardware store legally. But I won't pay $1,000 now, and I won't pay $1,000 when they are legal. Don't butt rape me bro. If your product costs that much to make then do a better job of cost control, innovate, or use cheaper/heavier parts. It just can't be that hard to make a tube with baffles. And you don't have to stop offering the premium flagship products, butstart offering quality products that are soberly priced, and they will sell off the shelfs. Start selling at a price appeals to everyone and not just 60 year old rich retirees that drive Corvettes. I'm nowhere close to rich or retirement age and I've got a few cans. I'm an enthusiast who is willing to pay for quality and I'm sure there are a lot of people on this site that fit that description. I paid $260 for my Silencerco Sparrow and around $600 for my Octane 45. Many center fire cans that can be had for $600-$750 and all of the better known cans have lifetime warranties. It's not cost thats keeping you away, you could easily build a form 1 can for a hundred or two hundred dollars, but you haven't. So what's the real reason you don't own suppressors? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:00:15 PM EDT
[#33]
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You're right. I haven't seen the numbers, so all I can do is speculate based on items that require similar overhead to produce. Other machined items of similar materials and similar (or greater) complexity selling for less leads me to believe there is a lot of profit built into suppressors. You aren't going to convince me that there isn't a lot of profit built in without showing me "the numbers" firsthand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right. I haven't seen the numbers, so all I can do is speculate based on items that require similar overhead to produce. Other machined items of similar materials and similar (or greater) complexity selling for less leads me to believe there is a lot of profit built into suppressors. You aren't going to convince me that there isn't a lot of profit built in without showing me "the numbers" firsthand. So what are your similar items that have similar markets and similar regulations? You're also going to have to define "a lot" of profit. By the way 200% markup is not "a lot". My only stake in this is as a consumer who wants to pay as little as possible for a product. A manufacturer will want to sell their product for as much as possible. I think as a manufacturer, you figure out what it costs you per unit when every expense is figured in, then you decide on a price that you think people will be willing to pay, and you go from there. If you are consistently selling out, you raise the price until demand starts to taper off, then back off to the level where you saw the greatest profit with consistent demand. But that price point has a lot less to do with manufacturing costs than it has to do with what customers are willing to pay for an item. Your view of how products are priced is extremely one dimensional. I seemed to have missed when SilencerCo, Dead Air, and AAC started rapidly increasing their prices as demand skyrocketed at the beginning of last year. Look, I like to see businesses succeed. I like it when a company (especially an American company, and even more so a Utah company) is successful. But I also like to pay as little for a product as possible, and I like for my friends and family to pay less too. And I am convinced there is a price point significantly lower on these items than what the current retail is, that remains profitable for manufacturers.
Should they lower their prices then? Of course not! They should get every penny they can for their products, just like any other company. But anyone with half a brain can look at a suppressor and a rifle and a lawnmower and any of a number of other products made using similar materials and manufacturing processes and can see that modern high end suppressors don't offer nearly as much value for your dollar as other products with similar materials and processes involved. Your narrative is completely destroyed when a competing company doesn't enter into the market with a product that is priced significantly lower than the competition, if there is absurd amounts of profit to be made. There's an old saying I'm fond of, "To see a need is to hear a call". |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:08:48 PM EDT
[#34]
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I think you are about as out of touch as a Hillary voter. Yes, most of the people buying suppressors may be middle class like me, but they aren't doing it in the numbers they should be because of restrictive pricing. Many are thinking it over for a few YEARS because it costs so much, saving money and coaxing their wives into agreement with their wicked plans. It need not be so. The amount of people buying represents probably ten percent of the market. Everyone I know owns an AR-15, but I'm the only one with a suppressor. We ALL want one. We all want three or four. We just won't be screwed. Well, we will be screwed when we think there will never be a more fair option. If we think these are going to be legal then we may have a better option. That's why no one is buying too, not just because they are put off by the $200 stamp. I'm out of touch? Says the guy shaking his fist at the guy because expensive suppressors exist in the same universe that $500 ARs do. You're making completely anecdotal arguments because you are an extreme outlier of the typical consumer. As someone who has sold 1 or 2, the barrier to entry for most consumers isn't the price, it's the paperwork and the wait. In a lot of cases I could get people who walked in the door never even knowing you could legally purchase one buy one on the spot, simply by handling the burden of all the paperwork in store right then and there. The reason I know this is the case, is that if the HPA passed right now, all the suppressors on the market would certainly be sold out by the weekend. The market plays to people who are willing to spend the money, as it should. I'm not saying anything negative about you being conservative with your money, but thinking companies should lower their price because you have an arbitrary model of what they should cost based on no tangible evidence whatsoever is insane. Also, for the record, I was supporting Trump long before most people on here were and I contributed more than what one of the dang 'ol rich people silencers cost to his campaign. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:14:26 PM EDT
[#35]
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I'm nowhere close to rich or retirement age and I've got a few cans. I'm an enthusiast who is willing to pay for quality and I'm sure there are a lot of people on this site that fit that description. I paid $260 for my Silencerco Sparrow and around $600 for my Octane 45. Many center fire cans that can be had for $600-$750 and all of the better known cans have lifetime warranties. It's not cost thats keeping you away, you could easily build a form 1 can for a hundred or two hundred dollars, but you haven't. So what's the real reason you don't own suppressors? I do own a 5.56 suppressor, and I will buy another, even if I have to pay an unfair price for it. I won't buy it tomorrow though. I won't buy it next month. I wanted a 9mm last year, but guess what, I still haven't bought it. Like you, I can afford to pay $600, and I probably eventually will. The issue is that because they are overpriced (or over-engineered), I may never buy another after that--and who knows how many years will pass until I finally get my 9mm can. If the average suppressor cost under $300 I'd probably have one for each threaded gun. More importantly, the novice consumers would be buying them, and they are not. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:15:52 PM EDT
[#36]
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Better question is why aren't they hammering Congress to pass HPA? They are too busy holding up Trump at every turn to appease the leftists. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:19:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. You are smoking crack. Tell us all about how Ti, inconel, stellite, and high grade stainless are all so cheap and easy to work with. Cans are overbuilt because the paperwork hassle associated with replacing them. They're also priced higher than they otherwise would be with better economies of scale, regardless of the materials and methods used to make them. Considering that we were nowhere near the point of diminishing returns for can production capacity, fewer cans sold means the costs per can go up, not down. Quoted:
A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. The bare-bones industry gold standard AR is currently priced at about $900 bucks. Accounting for inflation, they have never been cheaper than they are right now. Quoted:
I do own a 5.56 suppressor, and I will buy another, even if I have to pay an unfair price for it.. There really isn't any such thing as an "unfair price". Either you can afford it and find the value of the item to be worth the price tag, or you don't. You are not entitled to have anything have any specific price, nor does anyone else have a duty to price anything to your liking. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:19:50 PM EDT
[#38]
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How do you know what the market will bear? Do you have some kind of super secret insider information? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I wouldn't buy a $6 scope, or a $2,500 one. I'd buy a $200 scope, which is far more than I would want to spend, but is about the minimum necessary to get a functional and long-lasting scope. Same goes for suppressors in my book. But how many suppressors are in the $200 range? I'm saying the majority of them should be, and quite a few of them should cost much less (although the $200 tax stamp effectively eliminates the disposable group entirely). Premium products have their place for certain, but the vast majority of suppressors should sell for around $200 because that's what the market will bear. Instead the average cost of a suppressor is probably $800. I guarantee you that an $800 price tag is keeping more people from buying suppressors than the $200 tax stamp and eight month wait. How do you know what the market will bear? Do you have some kind of super secret insider information? I think the market is bearing it right now. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:21:00 PM EDT
[#39]
They are a little high in price IMO. But I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of supply and demand and market share and all that stuff. The biggest hang up is the stamp and even more so the 9-12 month waiting time before you can possess your property.
The whole time you are shopping for a can you have to +$200 to everything and that sucks. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:23:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm out of touch? Says the guy shaking his fist at the guy because expensive suppressors exist in the same universe that $500 ARs do. You're making completely anecdotal arguments because you are an extreme outlier of the typical consumer. As someone who has sold 1 or 2, the barrier to entry for most consumers isn't the price, it's the paperwork and the wait. In a lot of cases I could get people who walked in the door never even knowing you could legally purchase one buy one on the spot, simply by handling the burden of all the paperwork in store right then and there. The reason I know this is the case, is that if the HPA passed right now, all the suppressors on the market would certainly be sold out by the weekend. The market plays to people who are willing to spend the money, as it should. I'm not saying anything negative about you being conservative with your money, but thinking companies should lower their price because you have an arbitrary model of what they should cost based on no tangible evidence whatsoever is insane. Also, for the record, I was supporting Trump long before most people on here were and I contributed more than what one of the dang 'ol rich people silencers cost to his campaign. Sorry I misworded the Hillary thing. I meant to say as out of touch as the media who said Trump couldn't win. I would never insinuate you were a Hillary voter!  This is a civil discussion!
Yea, they probably would sell off the shelves if they were legalized tomorrow. But that would be an anomaly. The prices would crash. Big companies like S&W would start making the types of suppressors everyone can afford that I'm talking about, and guess who is going to lose all that market share? I'll tell you who, the snobby silencer companies that catered to premium buyers while ignoring average consumers. Would you say that because you know people will buy something like a PWS rifle or HK USP handgun, that the gun market is tapped? I'm saying the MAJORITY of the suppressor market is completely untapped. It is my opinion that millions of buyers are more put off by the exorbinate prices than the Form 4 (now that the Internet has made it common knowledge). |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:26:14 PM EDT
[#41]
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Lol, on ARF? You even look at the photos? This place is the home of amazing hardware. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. Lol, on ARF? You even look at the photos? This place is the home of amazing hardware. This x1000 i am constantly amazed at not only the hardware but the level of artistic work done on the painting and associated parts. No one can ever say people of this site have no passion. With all that said, I have no opinion on the topic at hand, I have no idea what it cost to make suppressors. I do know what it cost the company I work for to make products and laugh my ass off when I see some website take said product apart then claim it only has X number of dollars worth of parts in it. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:28:00 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yea, they probably would sell off the shelves if they were legalized tomorrow. But that would be an anomaly. The prices would crash.. Prices for the sorts of cans already on the market would go nuts. Prices for any cans available with new, cheaper designs would also be fairly high for what they are. Neither set of prices would come down for quite a while. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:28:49 PM EDT
[#43]
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A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. No ar I have owned or will own cost less than 1700. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:35:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry I misworded the Hillary thing. I meant to say as out of touch as the media who said Trump couldn't win. I would never insinuate you were a Hillary voter! This is a civil discussion!
Yea, they probably would sell off the shelves if they were legalized tomorrow. But that would be an anomaly. The prices would crash. Big companies like S&W would start making the types of suppressors everyone can afford that I'm talking about, and guess who is going to lose all that market share? I'll tell you who, the snobby silencer companies that catered to premium buyers while ignoring average consumers. Would you say that because you know people will buy something like a PWS rifle or HK USP handgun, that the gun market is tapped? I'm saying the MAJORITY of the suppressor market is completely untapped. It is my opinion that millions of buyers are more put off by the exorbinate prices than the Form 4 (now that the Internet has made it common knowledge). Of course the prices are inflated at the moment, and of course prices over the long-term would could down a fair amount, I just happen to think it will be less than I often see people on here claiming(partially due to some insider knowledge and familiarity of the industry. These things are much more complicated to make than most people give them credit for. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:38:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This x1000 i am constantly amazed at not only the hardware but the level of artistic work done on the painting and associated parts. No one can ever say people of this site have no passion. With all that said, I have no opinion on the topic at hand, I have no idea what it cost to make suppressors. I do know what it cost the company I work for to make products and laugh my ass off when I see some website take said product apart then claim it only has X number of dollars worth of parts in it. It's a tube with baffles. What is a baffle? It would be accurate to characterize a baffle as a washer. So a tube with holes in each end and washers. Yes, quality is important and I wouldn't want a super cheapo suppressor, but >$600 is just jaw dropping, and >$1,200 is absolutely insane. Not that people won't pay it, they will pay it for sure, especially if it is "operator". And that's fine. People here pay $3,000 for KAC M4's, which work the same as any other M4 as far as I know, but they like them. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:45:04 PM EDT
[#46]
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Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Continuously repeating "pipe with washers" does nothing other than demonstrate your ignorance. Yeah, they're not really rocket science, but they're not "pipe with washers" either. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:45:56 PM EDT
[#47]
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Why are machine guns so expensive? Most of them are very old designs and the raw materials don't cost that much. They are expensive due to the artificial limit placed on actual units for legal sale in the USA. If manufacturers could legally make machine guns for public consumption they would cost a few dollars more than what an AR15 goes for these days. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:47:46 PM EDT
[#48]
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The same reason people don't open up pharmaceutical companies, computer companies, etc. Not everyone is cut out to run a successful business. Very, very few people actually have the ambition, drive and self-motivation for something like that. It takes a superior intelligence to be able to juggle all of the different responsibilities at once. I know I'm not cut out for it.
And, if there isn't "big bucks" to be made, why are any suppressor companies in business now to begin with? If their profits are so dismal, why aren't they just giving up and getting a job at a car dealership or something? You think selling silencers is comparable to the barrier to entry of starting a pharmaceutical company? Sorry, if you can make 2000% profit selling cans, then I'm all in, the problem is the thesis is utter bullshit. There may be a barrier to entry for starting a company that makes nfa items, but it sure as hell is nothing like starting a new pfizer. I'm not saying you can't make some money selling silencers, or that companies in business are barely scraping by. What I'm saying is that there is no way they are making the margins people in this thread claim. I'll go one further, even if they were I still don't give a single fuck and my point that everyone who thinks it's a great get rich quick scam should still pool their money and show me I'm wrong. Further, you want to make some real $$$ mfg shit, make aerospace parts. If you think silencers are expensive you should see what we pay for valve manifolds, and they're aluminum!! According to GD they shouldn't cost more than $8 to make, and I know for the simplest one we buy we pay close to or over $1000/ea. But why stop there, we assemble that with some other parts that GD could easily whip out for like $50 or less, and we sell that shit for like $5k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No NFA bullshit either, come on GD, make aerospace great again. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:51:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Hey, look, a "washer".
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Posted: 2/21/2017 11:54:24 PM EDT
[#50]
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Ok let me help you.... Cost of CNc machines Cost of itar Cost of license Cost of sot Cost of insurance for company Cost of taxes for company Cost of benefits for employees Cost of SS for employees Cost of workers comp Cost of training Cost of material Cost of labor Cost of marketing Cost of r&d Cost of percentage on loans Shits cheap yo, now go start your business for $100 inconel and titanium cans at a major loss or go be poor somewhere else. While you have a couple of valid points I don't buy your argument 100%. Look at the cost of AR15's these days. Shit, Mega and Aero make parts for the aviation industry. They already had the machines. When the airline industry took a shit in the late 00's they turned to making AR15 uppers and lowers. It was a way for them to keep their machines running 24 hours in order to make money. Both of those companies could dedicate machines to make suppressors and they could crank them out for pretty cheap. As an industry matures companies are going to innovate. Bob's hand made silencer shop cranks out 4 hand made silencers a day while Bills silencer shop outsources the production of the baffles and the tube while they do the final machining and the assembly in house and they crank out 40 a day. All that really needs to happen is that the NFA laws either go away or the waiting period is "same day", then the prices will go down. |
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