User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:15:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. (They could basically weld washers inside a pipe). The profit margin has to be around 2000%, and it really only requires one man to build many designs beginning to end. Add to that the fact that your buyers have to suffer a $200 penalty from the government, and you'd think they would cut us some slack. Can we expect prices to drop if legalization is going to take another ten years? I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Even top tier manufacturers could produce affordable suppressors for the common man if they cared to do so. In fact, the quickest way to force legalizing suppressors is probably to lower the prices and quadruple sales, thereby overhelming the NFA process and normalizing suppressors in every home. Most of your assumptions are false. Top Tier cans take a lot of money to make. Go find a can that doesn't experience POI shift with heating and get back to me. Top Tier cans will stay more relevant as people see what kinds of problems there are with suppressors and center fire rifles, especially those who want repeatability and accuracy. Those who just want to blast will build their own or buy the $400 models. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:15:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so you're saying one of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pile with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? Ok, again you are all jacked up on whatever you think you know. Washered cans haven't been around since 2004ish with the TAC 16 by tactical innovations, they still had spacers and coned "washers"which basically made a shitty M baffle. If you do happen to build a form 1 can yourself, say a copy of a high end "$1000" suppressor say in .308 that's 8" long and made of ti and stainless. I will break the price down for you with off the shelf parts with shipping. Ti tube, $110 Ti end caps, 140 7 ti 60° cones $195 2 stainless 60° cones $40 Spacers, $15 Engraving, $45 So that's $545 in parts and you still have to do machine work on the baffles and endcap. Ok so let's just call it $550, so they sell to a dealer for $850 who sells it for 1000. The company just made a $300 profit to keep the lights on and another company just made $150. Such profit... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:15:29 PM EDT
[#3]
OP is ridiculous.
or OP should open up a suppressor company and make that mad cash. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:15:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know there are hidden costs and I know that very few manufacturers are could possibly be making a 20x return on their silencers (but suspect that some do based on their name recognition).. But I do suspect many, I suspect most, charge more than 10x what it costs them to make a suppressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know there are hidden costs and I know that very few manufacturers are could possibly be making a 20x return on their silencers (but suspect that some do based on their name recognition).. But I do suspect many, I suspect most, charge more than 10x what it costs them to make a suppressor. What facts are you basing this assumption on? As for economies of scale, that's something the manufacturers should have worked out. In fact, charging more per item makes economies of scale more difficult because you don't have the quantitative purchasing power on your parts. So again I say, every serious manufacturer should sell an affordable (non iconel for those of you bitching about iconel) suppressor for around $200, because let's face it--that's a fair price for a quality suppressor that should last a lifetime. Working in a market with a relatively fixed number of people and slow growth and a hard barrier to entry makes economy of scale a lot more difficult. The smart manufacturer would probably establish some kind of group and fund it using to profits to help make purchasing suppressors easier, and in turn increasing their revenue while as a whole steadily decreasing there prices because of an increase in size of the market. Man, eventually they could even try and deregulate the item, exponentially increasing the size of the industry overnight! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:19:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, again you are all jacked up on whatever you think you know. Washered cans haven't been around since 2004ish with the TAC 16 by tactical innovations, they still had spacers and coned "washers"which basically made a shitty M baffle. If you do happen to build a form 1 can yourself, say a copy of a high end "$1000" suppressor say in .308 that's 8" long and made of ti and stainless. I will break the price down for you with off the shelf parts with shipping. Ti tube, $110 Ti end caps, 140 7 ti 60° cones $195 2 stainless 60° cones $40 Spacers, $15 Engraving, $45 So that's $545 in parts and you still have to do machine work on the baffles and endcap. Ok so let's just call it $550, so they sell to a dealer for $850 who sells it for 1000. The company just made a $300 profit to keep the lights on and another company just made $200. Such profit... Those might be accurate prices if you are buying one of each. But those are definitely not wholesale prices for those materials. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:21:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just bought a complete ambi lower for $159, and a complete upper with BCG and keymod rail and lowpro gas block for <$500 total from PSA. Also, I could've bought the basic lower for $129 and a standard (FSP) upper for $199, add a $79 BCG, and you have a complete carbine for about $400--and they are making a profit... They are manufacturing all of that in house? Protip: They aren't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:23:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. Or fancy rims or junkfood ... |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:25:55 PM EDT
[#8]
2000% Profit?!?!
Wow! Ok, I guess that 4 million in CNC equipment will get paid off real fast! Oh wait, we forgot about that whole investment part. Never mind! |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:26:21 PM EDT
[#9]
I have been told in other parts of the world some of them start at $50 and can be bought in gas stations and small stores in some countries. Maybe some of arf that travels or lives in those parts of the world can chime in. Heard part of this on Gun Talk. Are they quality suppressors? or are they couple mags and toss away. Also told they are not regulated in some places so no paperwork. That is probably a pipe dream here.
thinking of getting a couple but have to get new barrels for the pistols or maybe even my 10/22 as I am not aware of one that fits the most common 10/22 barrel. so far cost has kept me from it. Yes I have wrote my reps several times about this and even let a phone message for one. Ill do it again, and others should too. The more people they hear from, and keep hearing from the better. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:27:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those might be accurate prices if you are buying one of each. But those are definitely not wholesale prices for those materials. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok, again you are all jacked up on whatever you think you know. Washered cans haven't been around since 2004ish with the TAC 16 by tactical innovations, they still had spacers and coned "washers"which basically made a shitty M baffle. If you do happen to build a form 1 can yourself, say a copy of a high end "$1000" suppressor say in .308 that's 8" long and made of ti and stainless. I will break the price down for you with off the shelf parts with shipping. Ti tube, $110 Ti end caps, 140 7 ti 60° cones $195 2 stainless 60° cones $40 Spacers, $15 Engraving, $45 So that's $545 in parts and you still have to do machine work on the baffles and endcap. Ok so let's just call it $550, so they sell to a dealer for $850 who sells it for 1000. The company just made a $300 profit to keep the lights on and another company just made $200. Such profit... Those might be accurate prices if you are buying one of each. But those are definitely not wholesale prices for those materials. Yup, economies of scale. I do realize that this is the government's fault for artificially manipulating the market with their $200 tax, and severely limiting the customer base. My point is that we need to make the customer base ALL GUN OWNERS obviously, and the HPA will do that. But it is looking like ithe HPA won't happen for years because it takes 60 senate votes and we only have 53 Republicans in the Senate. They are talking about waiting until Trump's second term before moving ahead with the HPA for fear of angering and uniting Democrat voters. So the current HPA says it will refund the $200 stamp after the vote passes. I'm saying if the prices of suppressors were cut in half and the $200 stamp refund looked promising then we could sell a shit ton of suppressors, forcing the Senate to give the HOA attention now. Other point: Supressor sales are supposedly falling off the cliff as people are waiting for the HOA to pass (it won't), which is probably going to put some manufacturers out of business if they don't do something drastic. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:28:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Even the Brugger & Thomet suppressors in Europe are not cheap.
They are made in Switzerland, so if you think you're going to get something cheap from them, look at some other country. Like I said in the other thread, most of the cans I've seen, used, and bought in Europe were in the 400euro price range, at the height of the Euro's exchange to the dollar ($1.36 $1.5 / Euro). |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:28:56 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those might be accurate prices if you are buying one of each. But those are definitely not wholesale prices for those materials. I am stating what op would pay for a off the shelf home brew copy of a suppressor. Of course you could add the cost of buying a lathe and mill, tooling, material ECT and doing it yourself.You could also price parts in bulk which are not much cheaper unless you buy it by the literal truck load. Material costs fluctuates daily, usually upward as well as costs to manufacture such a electricity tooling and labor. We are discussing building in house, yes the profit is probably 60-70% before you add in material, power, insurance, workers comp, taxes ECT. So after the day is over and you lock the doors for the night you are looking at a 18-20% profit on something that your employees made. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:29:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those might be accurate prices if you are buying one of each. But those are definitely not wholesale prices for those materials. Individuals aren't going to get wholesale prices on single item orders of Titanium, let alone inconel, aluminum, or any of the metals used in suppressors. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:31:35 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been told in other parts of the world some of them start at $50 and can be bought in gas stations and small stores in some countries. Maybe some of arf that travels or lives in those parts of the world can chime in. Heard part of this on Gun Talk. Are they quality suppressors? or are they couple mags and toss away. Also told they are not regulated in some places so no paperwork. That is probably a pipe dream here. thinking of getting a couple but have to get new barrels for the pistols or maybe even my 10/22 as I am not aware of one that fits the most common 10/22 barrel. so far cost has kept me from it. Yes I have wrote my reps several times about this and even let a phone message for one. Ill do it again, and others should too. The more people they hear from, and keep hearing from the better. The cheap .22 cans in sporting goods stores I have seen, maybe. The more substantial cans for use on AR15s? I paid at least 400 euros. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:31:57 PM EDT
[#15]
I can buy a suppressor over the counter here for <$100. So, yes, once regulations are removed in the US, prices will come way way down.
For you doubters, I can buy a .22 rimfire one online right now and have it delivered to my door $39.99 NZD. That is about $28.50 USD. Link Link to suppressor for $40 NZD |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:32:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? What do you think is getting ready to happen with 3D printing? You have a whole end user pool who are just mechanically and technologically inclined enough to think they will be able to crank one out at home as soon as some more skilled trailblazers perfect a shareware version for mass distribution. Someone develops an 80% can that the end user can complete, register and crank out the innards on their printer and you will have a major paradigm shift in that market. Heck, this board and gun clubs everywhere will be group buying the printer to share the cost and bring down the individual investment. I'm in that crowd. No way I'd pay February 2017 prices when I think my total cost may be less than $300 within less than a year. And if I think I'll be able to do that, why would I invest in a start up to compete in that near future market. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:32:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please show me a company that manufactures an AR-15 all in house, all being the keyword, and sells it for $500. That has fuck-all to do with anything. That $500 AR15 is not being sold at a loss just because an assembler sourced cheap parts from multiple manufacturers. Do you think Silencerco makes their own rubber O rings? Their own fabric pouches? Retail boxes and foam packaging? There's a good chance their threaded barrels are partly (if not entirely) outsourced. How much of the Maxim 9 pistol do you think they make in-house? What about the springs in the boosters of some of their suppressor models? You think they are bending and heat treating these springs in-house? Show me the actual cost per unit with all the overhead, advertising, labor, regulatory compliance, materials, insurance, legal, etc. of a known suppressor model from a major manufacturer versus the MSRP, and then we can talk. Until then, it is all just speculation. You want to know why you can't just call up a manufacturer and ask what their cost per unit is? Because if they told you, they couldn't charge nearly as much. Nobody starts a manufacturing business to make a middle class income. These guys are smart, and they are rich. And they didn't get rich by selling things a few percent above cost. They get rich by a lot of risk taking and hard work, and by building in a very fat profit in the MSRP of every unit they sell. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:33:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Individuals aren't going to get wholesale prices on single item orders of Titanium, let alone inconel, aluminum, or any of the metals used in suppressors. Exactly, go see what kind of a discount you get if you buy 20k of 556... Nothing, nada, Zip zilch. Op wants a washered POS suppressor, he should go buy some pvc and a few washers from Lowe's "after his form 1 comes back" |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:33:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been told in other parts of the world some of them start at $50 and can be bought in gas stations and small stores in some countries. Maybe some of arf that travels or lives in those parts of the world can chime in. Heard part of this on Gun Talk. Are they quality suppressors? or are they couple mags and toss away. Also told they are not regulated in some places so no paperwork. That is probably a pipe dream here. thinking of getting a couple but have to get new barrels for the pistols or maybe even my 10/22 as I am not aware of one that fits the most common 10/22 barrel. so far cost has kept me from it. Yes I have wrote my reps several times about this and even let a phone message for one. Ill do it again, and others should too. The more people they hear from, and keep hearing from the better. Until just a few years ago, suppressors were not regulated in Finland or France. Now Finland requires some form of ID I believe, and France requires a special license. I doubt they were any cheaper there though, probably more expensive as the markets are more niche than the US. I'm throwing a guess out as I have no idea how to build one, but I think "high end" models will probably settle for $800-900, with average ones coming at $500-600. Lower end ones will probably be around $400 or less, but might not be of consistent quality (POI shifting, ect.). If I had to guess based off of what current prices are, that is what I would think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:36:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am stating what op would pay for a off the shelf home brew copy of a suppressor. Of course you could add the cost of buying a lathe and mill, tooling, material ECT and doing it yourself.You could also price parts in bulk which are not much cheaper unless you buy it by the literal truck load. Material costs fluctuates daily, usually upward as well as costs to manufacture such a electricity tooling and labor. We are discussing building in house, yes the profit is probably 60-70% before you add in material, power, insurance, workers comp, taxes ECT. So after the day is over and you lock the doors for the night you are looking at a 18-20% profit on something that your employees made. Speculation. Since we don't know what the manufacturers' actual realized cost per unit is, all we can do is compare it to other things that require similar manufacturing processes and regulatory compliance, like complete rifles. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:37:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread we get to see a worker's mentality vs. a business owner's mentality. I understand that things cost money that money is needed to run a business, and I know largely what goes into making a suppressor because I work in the machine trades myself. Just don't spit on my back and tell me it's raining. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:37:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Individuals aren't going to get wholesale prices on single item orders of Titanium, let alone inconel, aluminum, or any of the metals used in suppressors. Agreed. But this isn't about individuals, it's about how much can manufacturing companies afford to lower prices and still make a profit |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:37:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly, go see what kind of a discount you get if you buy 20k of 556... Nothing, nada, Zip zilch. Op wants a washered POS suppressor, he should go buy some pvc and a few washers from Lowe's "after his form 1 comes back" A parkerized steel pipe, stainless plugs with a hole drilled in them, and some threaded endcaps would probably suffice in 90% of the cases. Please tell me why this needs to cost $500. You know that it shouldn't cost that much. Stop being ridiculous. It doesn't even need to be precision drilled. We should be able to buy these parts at Lowe's for $20 (and we probably could/would if it were legal). |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:38:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? This right here. And it certainly wouldn't have a lifetime warranty. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:39:21 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until just a few years ago, suppressors were not regulated in Finland or France. Now Finland requires some form of ID I believe, and France requires a special license. I doubt they were any cheaper there though, probably more expensive as the markets are more niche than the US. I'm throwing a guess out as I have no idea how to build one, but I think "high end" models will probably settle for $800-900, with average ones coming at $500-600. Lower end ones will probably be around $400 or less, but might not be of consistent quality (POI shifting, ect.). If I had to guess based off of what current prices are, that is what I would think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:43:07 PM EDT
[#26]
If you're really interested, take the prices at the link below and divide by 1.4. That will translate NZD to USD.
Then take a discount of say 25% to that, because US manufacturers have huge economies of scale compared to New Zealand http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryListings.aspx?cid=8990 |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:46:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That has fuck-all to do with anything. That $500 AR15 is not being sold at a loss just because an assembler sourced cheap parts from multiple manufacturers. Do you think Silencerco makes their own rubber O rings? Their own fabric pouches? Retail boxes and foam packaging? There's a good chance their threaded barrels are partly (if not entirely) outsourced. How much of the Maxim 9 pistol do you think they make in-house? What about the springs in the boosters of some of their suppressor models? You think they are bending and heat treating these springs in-house? Show me the actual cost per unit with all the overhead, advertising, labor, regulatory compliance, materials, insurance, legal, etc. of a known suppressor model from a major manufacturer versus the MSRP, and then we can talk. Until then, it is all just speculation. You want to know why you can't just call up a manufacturer and ask what their cost per unit is? Because if they told you, they couldn't charge nearly as much. Nobody starts a manufacturing business to make a middle class income. These guys are smart, and they are rich. And they didn't get rich by selling things a few percent above cost. They get rich by a lot of risk taking and hard work, and by building in a very fat profit in the MSRP of every unit they sell. What do you mean it has fuck-all to do with anything? For every cheap bargin-bin $500 AR-15 I can show you a company that makes an AR-15 for $2,000, and is extremely successful doing so. And most that tend to do so build at least some of the parts in house, to a higher specification. It absolutely matters because it means the costs are more localized and are usually higher, as opposed to sourcing them from companies that produce them for multiple manufacturers in extremely high volumes. It's the reason when Noveske made their Gen 2 Forged lowers the cost was higher, and it's the reason why Billet lowers are usually higher cost as well. You might just be speculating out of your ass on the subject, but I've actually seen numbers regarding costs from major manufacturers in addition to selling them not long ago. But no, it's all a giant fucking conspiracy that ALL of the Silencer manufacturers are in on to keep screwing the consumer! It can't possibly be that two random people on the internet are completely incorrect on a subject. 
Click To View Spoiler |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:46:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A parkerized steel pipe, stainless plugs with a hole drilled in them, and some threaded endcaps would probably suffice in 90% of the cases. Please tell me why this needs to cost $500. You know that it shouldn't cost that much. Stop being ridiculous. It doesn't even need to be precision drilled. We should be able to buy these parts at Lowe's for $20 (and we probably could/would if it were legal). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Exactly, go see what kind of a discount you get if you buy 20k of 556... Nothing, nada, Zip zilch. Op wants a washered POS suppressor, he should go buy some pvc and a few washers from Lowe's "after his form 1 comes back" A parkerized steel pipe, stainless plugs with a hole drilled in them, and some threaded endcaps would probably suffice in 90% of the cases. Please tell me why this needs to cost $500. You know that it shouldn't cost that much. Stop being ridiculous. It doesn't even need to be precision drilled. We should be able to buy these parts at Lowe's for $20 (and we probably could/would if it were legal). Why do they cost 400 euros in Finland then? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:47:59 PM EDT
[#29]
You can buy an oil filter for $6. Don't tell me suppressors should cost hundreds of dollars.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:49:29 PM EDT
[#30]
... that's a damn friendly question!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:50:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Price in-elasticity. The cost of the item isn't that relevant to purchase decisions because of the $200 tax and very long wait. If those barriers to free market competition were removed we would have a very robust and fair market for suppressors where the balance of supply and demand would affect the situation. effect |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:50:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope everyone that is bitching about silencer prices and ATF wait times have contacted their Senators and their Representative to urge them to PASS the HPA! 
Edit, tsg beat me by more than a minute.  I did, I called Senator Chuck the schmuck Schumer and told him I want a silencer, and he said they are tools of an assassin and have no place in our society. Then I decided to try my other Senator Kirsten Elizabeth Rutnik Gillibrand and told her I want a silencer like the citizens have in the majority of the other states, and she said they are tools of an assassin and have no place in our society. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:50:13 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're really interested, take the prices at the link below and divide by 1.4. That will translate NZD to USD. Then take a discount of say 25% to that, because US manufacturers have huge economies of scale compared to New Zealand http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryListings.aspx?cid=8990 Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're really interested, take the prices at the link below and divide by 1.4. That will translate NZD to USD. Then take a discount of say 25% to that, because US manufacturers have huge economies of scale compared to New Zealand http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/CategoryListings.aspx?cid=8990 Here is what they sell 22LR suppressors for in NZ, LOL: In New Zealand, this economy .22 rimfire gun muffler is selling for about $15. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/08/dean-weingarten/new-zealand-silencers-cheap-and-unregulated/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:50:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can buy an oil filter for $6. Don't tell me suppressors should cost hundreds of dollars. How many rounds do you get on an oil filter rated for how many psi again, versus a purpose-built AR15 suppressor designed to take repeated firings without failing. These threads always rise the false assumptions to the top really quick. It's already bad enough that materials science escapes some of the manufacturers in this industry. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:53:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do they cost 400 euros in Finland then? Why does a Carl Zeiss scope cost $2,500? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:54:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Rich people with their fancy suppressors.........
TRUMP DID THIS!! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:54:46 PM EDT
[#37]
High prices aren't the barrier to entry in the suppressor market. It's the BS registration, the 9 to 13 month wait, and the asinine extended background check.
Suppressor companies don't sell all that many cans. Hence why they need a larger profit margin to balance their low sales with the relatively high overhead costs. Low volume/high margin. Once the HPA passes, those barriers to entry will disappear; established companies will flourish, since they already have what they need to crank out massive numbers of high-quality suppressors at a brisk pace. They'll likely lower prices somewhat to reflect their new business model of high volume/low margin. Besides, high-end suppressors aren't all that expensive. $650 to $900, and that usually includes a muzzle device for repeatable zero QD capability. Companies that make less expensive options will also pop up, and they may take a bite out of the top tier manufacturers' market, but it won't be much, since there will always be people who want the best, the lightest, the most durable, the military-issue equipment. Once 3D printing tech hits the point where it can reliably work with 7075 T6, titanium, Inconel, along with high-carbon, stainless and tool steels, AND the machinery is affordable, then there will be a revolution in the suppressor market. But that revolution will apply to the entire firearms market, not just suppressors. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:55:05 PM EDT
[#38]
I agree with the OP, and have for years. I just don't bring it up because I knew this butt hurt would result.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:55:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A parkerized steel pipe, stainless plugs with a hole drilled in them, and some threaded endcaps would probably suffice in 90% of the cases. Please tell me why this needs to cost $500. You know that it shouldn't cost that much. Stop being ridiculous. It doesn't even need to be precision drilled. We should be able to buy these parts at Lowe's for $20 (and we probably could/would if it were legal). Dude, you really need to understand quality vs quantity. You can buy the can you describe for 429 at tactical innovations. A parked pipe with washers for baffles. They also sell sex toys and are your "assualt rifle headquarters" , and yes they need a lot of precision to manufacture. If you do not the like the price, don't pay to play. You can always form 1 a shitty steel tube with welded ends and freeze plugs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many rounds do you get on an oil filter rated for how many psi again, versus a purpose-built AR15 suppressor designed to take repeated firings without failing. I'm sure you would get your monies worth out of the 6 dollar filter. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:56:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does a Carl Zeiss scope cost $2,500? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why do they cost 400 euros in Finland then? Why does a Carl Zeiss scope cost $2,500? That was the price of an Ase Utra Jet CQB 5.56 can. Very heavy, comparable to the mid-grade US cans. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:58:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree with the OP, and have for years. I just don't bring it up because I knew this butt hurt would result. If the profit margins are so high, why doesn't anyone open manufacturing plant of their own? Why pass up this big bucks? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:58:35 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why does a Carl Zeiss scope cost $2,500? But I can get a Tasco for $7! Who would ever pay $2,500 for a scope, this one even comes with rings. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 9:58:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sure you would get your monies worth out of the 6 dollar filter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How many rounds do you get on an oil filter rated for how many psi again, versus a purpose-built AR15 suppressor designed to take repeated firings without failing. I'm sure you would get your monies worth out of the 6 dollar filter. Not when it strikes and flies off the muzzle down range. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:00:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Go be poor somewhere else?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:03:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do you mean it has fuck-all to do with anything? For every cheap bargin-bin $500 AR-15 I can show you a company that makes an AR-15 for $2,000, and is extremely successful doing so. And most that tend to do so build at least some of the parts in house, to a higher specification. It absolutely matters because it means the costs are more localized and are usually higher, as opposed to sourcing them from companies that produce them for multiple manufacturers in extremely high volumes. It's the reason when Noveske made their Gen 2 Forged lowers the cost was higher, and it's the reason why Billet lowers are usually higher cost as well. You might just be speculating out of your ass on the subject, but I've actually seen numbers regarding costs from major manufacturers in addition to selling them not long ago. But no, it's all a giant fucking conspiracy that ALL of the Silencer manufacturers are in on to keep screwing the consumer! It can't possibly be that two random people on the internet are completely incorrect on a subject. https://media.giphy.com/media/13qdejydj4dmNi/giphy.gif Click To View Spoiler I guess you are missing the point. For a lot of us, the extra $1500 to buy a fancy boutique AR isn't worth it. Nobody is forcing consumers to buy these things at these prices. Consumers are "screwing themselves" by eating them up at these inflated prices. I stand by my assertion that there is a lot of profit built into a $1500 suppressor, no matter how much is made in-house, and no matter what materials are used. I would not be surprised to learn that a manufacturer's per-unit cost on a $1500 retail suppressor is less than $500. And those $2000 AR15 guys? They have to make a profit too. So while they might be priced $2k retail, their per-unit price to manufacture has to be significantly lower than that in order to make it worthwhile to get up and go to work every day. But you are right, it's all just speculation on both sides unless a company shows us it's books. Since we can't look at their books, what we can do is look at the price of things with similar overhead and similar manufacturing processes, and try to extrapolate how much profit is built in that way. When a more complicated end product can be sold for less money, logic dictates that the simpler product for more money has more profit built into the price. It really is that simple. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:04:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread we get to see a worker's mentality vs. a business owner's mentality. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:05:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not when it strikes and flies off the muzzle down range. Then I would just replace it with another equally inexpensive oil filter and keep shooting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:05:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A 2000% Profit Margin? Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. This has to be a troll thread. Has to be. But just in case it's not...your belief of the above explains why you can't afford one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2017 10:05:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Things like titanium and inconel aren't cheap and after machining 75% of it goes to scrap, 2000% profit? lol
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
