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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:43:51 PM EDT
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If a Jehovah's Witness comes into the thread, we're in for 70 more pages of arguing... Jk. Might as well invite the Hari Krishnas too. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:44:21 PM EDT
[#2]
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We could keep going back and forth posting scriptures for hours. I noticed you didn't even reference the scriptures I posted showing them as separate, but instead, just posted several others that seem to show them as one. If you look at every scripture with the mindset that they are one in purpose, the ones I posted and you posted all work perfectly together. We see Christ as a God also, so many of those scriptures you posted fit in that sense. God the Father and God the son. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see you have a problem with the Greek texts. We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then... Isaiah 43 The Redeemer of Israel 43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. 2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you. 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place. 4 Since you were precious in My sight, You have been honored, And I have loved you; Therefore I will give men for you, And people for your life. 5 Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth— 7 Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him.” 8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes, And the deaf who have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, And let the people be assembled. Who among them can declare this, And show us former things? Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified; Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.” 10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. 12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord, “that I am God. 13 Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” 14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives— The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” 16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea And a path through the mighty waters, 17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse, The army and the power (They shall lie down together, they shall not rise; They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick): 18 “Do not remember the former things, Nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness And rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field will honor Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I give waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My people, My chosen. 21 This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise. And was was Christ to be called upon his birth? Immanuel...which means "God with us". So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy? When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews. Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God: I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV) The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped. Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation: 26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills. In John 8: we see: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals. In John 5, we clearly see them as separate. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do? The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over. Well, I thought God saying that no other gods were created before him or after him and that he is the ONLY God would be enough... Much of what the New Testament apostles wrote of Christ in near exact references to what God said about the truth of Himself in the Old Testament. >>God says of Himself to Isaiah: Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God. Mark writes of Christ: Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. What Isaiah is told to write of God is what Mark is told to write of Christ. They are the same. >>God tells in Joel: Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Paul speaks of Christ referencing how God references himself in Joel: Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. What God reveals of Himself in Joel so also Paul says is the EXACT same case with Christ. They are the same. The same God Joel said to call upon to be saved is the same God who Paul says to call upon in Christ. There is no duality. >>Again, in Isaiah, God reveals: Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. John says of Christ in the EXACT same manner: John 12:While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. John says Isaiah was speaking of Christ the same as that of the Lord...because they are one in the same. >>Another revealing of God in Isaiah: Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And Peter says of Christ the redeemer: 2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ. John the Revelator tells us: Revelation1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. And when John sees Christ, the Son of Man, in his dream: Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: So...God says he is the first and the last........and Jesus says he is the first and the last. I'd either say PICK ONE or believe they are indeed the SAME! >>God speaks in Zechariah: Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. And David relays the suffering in his psalm: Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. John tells us of Christ: John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. And Revelation speaks of Christ again: Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. God says they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM. God would be pierced....Christ was pierced. It is the same. You see...the Bible is so grand because it is so consistent from beginning to end. What God said of himself hundreds of years before Christ was sent is EXACTLY what was said of Christ while he was on this earth. They make no bones about it -- they are not two separate, distinct "gods". God said there are to be NO other gods before him -- and Christ said that he is the Lord Christ Jesus. You cannot enter into Heaven without believing that he is Lord...but God says put no one before Him. How do you reconcile? THEY ARE THE SAME, as they have said all along. Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Paul did not misspeak. Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The name of Jesus was to be given as the name above ALL names, that he would be worshipped as LORD. As separate beings, this contradicts what God said about Him being the only God above all other names. We could keep going back and forth posting scriptures for hours. I noticed you didn't even reference the scriptures I posted showing them as separate, but instead, just posted several others that seem to show them as one. If you look at every scripture with the mindset that they are one in purpose, the ones I posted and you posted all work perfectly together. We see Christ as a God also, so many of those scriptures you posted fit in that sense. God the Father and God the son. They are God the Father and the Son because one is not of this world and the other was OF God made physical in flesh because God is NOT physical in the earthly sense. It's rather simplistic, and you really don't have to try hard to read it that way if taken the way Christ proclaimed it himself. Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. The whole Bible can't be contradicting itself. All I'm getting at is the REALMS of God and Christ were distinctly separate when he walked on this earth. That is what is making it *appear* that the Bible is referencing two distinct persons. But if you truly understand what God said He was and what he would do, and you see what Jesus said he was and what he would do....they are the same! So either we have ONE God, or we have two gods who are copying one another in word and deed, which is mentioned nowhere. Again, no god existed before or after God. He said it himself. As a side note, I believe the usage of "God" would not be a proper noun if there were more than one "God". I think they would refer to God as a god and Jesus as a god. So I would agree with your statement of "God the Father and God the Son". It is not meant in the earthly genealogical way. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:45:19 PM EDT
[#3]
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Yup, if you counter the lies they have swallowed, they call you a liar. If you point out their false beliefs, they call you an antagonist. Funny stuff, if it were not so deadly serious. Sad they have been enveloped by a cult, but it happens to millions every year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You all give as good as you get. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile We have not rolled-over in the face of antagonism, if that is what you mean... I have caught a small handful of folks outright lying about the beliefs and practices of the LDS Church. Dogface? Didn't post in the thread until long after the anti's had showed their angst... Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ... 1.) I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again. That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator. The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT. Extractr called me a liar for stating the above. He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story." I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT. But I am the liar, you see. 2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner. Extractr called me a liar again. I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that. Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it). Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church. Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed. Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow. But I am the liar you see. 3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god? Which planet will get the flippant god? Which planet will get the irrational god? ... Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets. I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that. But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours. He used those words as synonyms for planet. But I am the liar, you see. I could go on. And on. And on. And on. But I will spare readers. Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across. You can be 100% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be described as a liar. I know I was. Yup, if you counter the lies they have swallowed, they call you a liar. If you point out their false beliefs, they call you an antagonist. Funny stuff, if it were not so deadly serious. Sad they have been enveloped by a cult, but it happens to millions every year. I thought I smelled BULLSHIT, and then I found your post, I see you've managed to wobble in drunk again. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:46:10 PM EDT
[#4]
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Yep. Their cutting-out key phrases to try to make a point... Their using second-hand or third-hand sources, and claiming them to be first-hand sources... Their using non-doctrinal sources, and claiming them do be scriptural and doctrinal sources... Would get them an "F" on a College report... It would get them investigated for "ethics" and outed for "bias" in an academic setting. But in anti-Mormon circles, their goal is for their lie to get repeated as a primary-source, and perpetuated. They have no academic integrity, and they pay no mind to accuracy and integrity. And they have *absolutely* no idea that when someone makes a sincere effort to learn the truth, and they look at the *primary* sources... Their angst makes our job easier. Honestly. Once someone sees the *entire* quote, or the doctrine in context, it is easy to answer doubt. It is easy to replace doubt with fear when confronting truth. And they have no idea. But yes, you are correct. Their tactics shows a clear-cut lack of ethics, and academic integrity. And every one of these threads, it gets pointed-out to them again and again and they feign lack of knowledge of integrity. They feign that they have no idea how LDS folks could possibly know more about the LDS Church compared to the antagonists.... They feign that they quote church doctrine in its entirety, then get caught cutting-out key phrases, and quoting from secondary-sources, claiming them to be primary sources... Every thread is the same. Get to know the *ignore* feature on the ones who pretend not to know what integrity and accuracy in citing primary-sources means... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You keep quoting people, not doctrine. That is your problem. Yep. Their cutting-out key phrases to try to make a point... Their using second-hand or third-hand sources, and claiming them to be first-hand sources... Their using non-doctrinal sources, and claiming them do be scriptural and doctrinal sources... Would get them an "F" on a College report... It would get them investigated for "ethics" and outed for "bias" in an academic setting. But in anti-Mormon circles, their goal is for their lie to get repeated as a primary-source, and perpetuated. They have no academic integrity, and they pay no mind to accuracy and integrity. And they have *absolutely* no idea that when someone makes a sincere effort to learn the truth, and they look at the *primary* sources... Their angst makes our job easier. Honestly. Once someone sees the *entire* quote, or the doctrine in context, it is easy to answer doubt. It is easy to replace doubt with fear when confronting truth. And they have no idea. But yes, you are correct. Their tactics shows a clear-cut lack of ethics, and academic integrity. And every one of these threads, it gets pointed-out to them again and again and they feign lack of knowledge of integrity. They feign that they have no idea how LDS folks could possibly know more about the LDS Church compared to the antagonists.... They feign that they quote church doctrine in its entirety, then get caught cutting-out key phrases, and quoting from secondary-sources, claiming them to be primary sources... Every thread is the same. Get to know the *ignore* feature on the ones who pretend not to know what integrity and accuracy in citing primary-sources means... I've actually never used the IGNORE feature here. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:47:02 PM EDT
[#5]
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So in other words, when the BOM and KJV say God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, there are no other gods, your reply simply is yes - there are no other gods; because all these verses that state there is but only one God, is just in reference to they are one - in purpose, and not Persons. I think this has been answered... And I don't see *any* confusion. And I do not see any difference between Biblical teachings and BOM teachings on the subject... Matt 3:13 ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 3 Nephi 31:1818 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:49:39 PM EDT
[#6]
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Even the highest possible authority says they couldn't have entered the temple... The Apostles would have been the highest-possible authorities --at the time-- and the scriptures are clear that they entered the Holy Temple to worship, receive revelation, ordinances, and Paul received a vision from Christ. We know from the scriptures that they entered the Temple after the ascension of Christ... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:49:59 PM EDT
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Attacking another person's belief/religion and belittling it/them screams of insecurity and pettiness. Embarrassing.  No kidding...   
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:53:45 PM EDT
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I am kinda turned off, when I asked Criley and his friends to just stop with the attacks on our church and faith, their answer was summed up their their faith requires them to, pretty fanatical. Well... that makes a little sense now why they operate in the unethical so much... They honestly believe they are on a moral crusade, and follow a higher-law... They operate in the grey, provide half-truths (claiming they are full-truths), lie (saying they aren't), and get caught. Then do it again over and over. Some sort of crusade. Huh. They are never going to give-up. Straight crazy. But a bit more understandable now... Feel bad for them, a little. Honestly.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:55:23 PM EDT
[#9]
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In a HUGE way No kidding. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:55:45 PM EDT
[#10]
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Simple is as simple does. Sad - very sad......... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see you have a problem with the Greek texts. We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then... Isaiah 43 The Redeemer of Israel 43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name; You are Mine. 2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you. 3 For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place. 4 Since you were precious in My sight, You have been honored, And I have loved you; Therefore I will give men for you, And people for your life. 5 Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; 6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’ Bring My sons from afar, And My daughters from the ends of the earth— 7 Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him.” 8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes, And the deaf who have ears. 9 Let all the nations be gathered together, And let the people be assembled. Who among them can declare this, And show us former things? Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified; Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.” 10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior. 12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses,” Says the Lord, “that I am God. 13 Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?” 14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “For your sake I will send to Babylon, And bring them all down as fugitives— The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships. 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” 16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea And a path through the mighty waters, 17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse, The army and the power (They shall lie down together, they shall not rise; They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick): 18 “Do not remember the former things, Nor consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness And rivers in the desert. 20 The beast of the field will honor Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I give waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My people, My chosen. 21 This people I have formed for Myself; They shall declare My praise. And was was Christ to be called upon his birth? Immanuel...which means "God with us". So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy? When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews. Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God: I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV) The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped. Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation: 26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills. In John 8: we see: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals. In John 5, we clearly see them as separate. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do? The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over. Simple is as simple does. Sad - very sad......... Yeah, you're simple alright.... Ya know, if this upsets you so much, you could simply stop replying. You antagonists have forgotton the first shots fired were by the antagonists, your actions dictate our reactions. And since your kind hates us so much, when disasters hit, why do you beg us for food, water, clothing, medical aid, labor? You guys hate us so much... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 11:57:14 PM EDT
[#11]
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I think you are wrong. I think you are not providing *accurate* information about LDS beliefs and doctrines. I think you are lying about LDS beliefs, practices, doctrines, and the first Latter-Day Prophet, Smith. I have asked for a reference about Smith being a (your words) "crack head." I believe you are lying. But I wanted to ask if you could back-up your claim with any sort of verifiable information. I want to give you a chance... I think you are (like a small handful of other antagonists) *purposefully* providing false and misleading information about Smith, and LDS beliefs... But if you can provide a source for Smith being a (your claim) "crack head" you could prove yourself to be a man of integrity. I think that you are certainly *not* a man of integrity... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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they have been fed a line of BS by a BS'r I think you are wrong. I think you are not providing *accurate* information about LDS beliefs and doctrines. I think you are lying about LDS beliefs, practices, doctrines, and the first Latter-Day Prophet, Smith. Quoted:
The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S.......... I have asked for a reference about Smith being a (your words) "crack head." I believe you are lying. But I wanted to ask if you could back-up your claim with any sort of verifiable information. I want to give you a chance... I think you are (like a small handful of other antagonists) *purposefully* providing false and misleading information about Smith, and LDS beliefs... But if you can provide a source for Smith being a (your claim) "crack head" you could prove yourself to be a man of integrity. I think that you are certainly *not* a man of integrity... They had CRACK back then? Why didn't anyone know this? Holy smokes! The things I learn on ARFCOM from fanatics. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:04:33 AM EDT
[#12]
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Yeah, you're simple alright.... Ya know, if this upsets you so much, you could simply stop replying. You antagonists have forgotton the first shots fired were by the antagonists, your actions dictate our reactions. And since your kind hates us so much, when disasters hit, why do you beg us for food, water, clothing, medical aid, labor? You guys hate us so much... They cannot wrap their head around that. You know that they cannot. They *hate* us for being prepared, just as much as they hate us for calling-out Constantine's paganism, and the apostasy... That "protestants" (who broke away from the Catholic Church) ~mostly agree with (when we are not around). There is zero love for even common-ground from the most-serious haters... The most angst-filled see the farms, ranches, and preparedness to share with others as selfishness. Seriously. Not kidding. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:10:50 AM EDT
[#13]
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Attacking another person's belief/religion and belittling it/them screams of insecurity and pettiness. Embarrassing. Ya know, I sat back in this thread and watched, didn't respond to the initial attacks, until one day, the assemblage of so called "Christians" began posting videos of our temple rites (We do not allow videos of these, so the footage was taken by an apostate) for the soul purpose of posting it to the internet so they and anyone else who felt the need to, MOCK and belittle our temple rites. They followed by calling our church founder a child molester. They further followed by calling us perverts for the period of time when Polygamy was practiced. Argued that we don't worship a REAL God, Jesus or Holy spirit. Then they outright DAMNED us. Yes, they informed us that we were DAMNED and going to hell for our faith. Normally, on AR15.com, these actions are a violation of the CoC, Site Staff has fervently protected Muslims from this kind of thing, however, it appears OPEN SEASON on Mormons. Then, this gaggle of so called "Christians" accuse me of being FLIPPANT, after this, they accuse me of disrespecting them? That was hillarious, as if those guys thought themselves KINGS. I mean FLIPPANT was the word they chose. How funny. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:11:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryIn AR15.com fashion, GET BOTH |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:11:46 AM EDT
[#15]
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They had CRACK back then? Why didn't anyone know this? Holy smokes! The things I learn on ARFCOM from fanatics. Yeah... No kidding. We have caught the antagonists in all-kinds of lies. So, I knew it would be easy... I simply went to a previous post of his, and copied and pasted a line. Could have been any number of his wild accusations against us... Not hard at all to do. They cannot keep up with themselves. The funny thing is... He accused *us* of lying... What a joke. So... He has to prove that Smith actually used crack, or he is a liar... He knows he can't prove it. I know he can't prove it. Anyone with a brain knows he cannot prove it... Why post it...? Why did the poster a few pages back post that the arid high-mountain desert of the Great Basin was habitable prior to the Saints vast irrigation network? I could prove that instantly wrong from the anti-Mormon SL Trib. Let alone every historical and government source on Western migration... What a total-liar. Not even a *basic* attempt at basic honestly and integrity. Why do the antagonists cut-out parts of quotes, and claim them to be legit? They know we can go-back and find the original... They know they are going to get caught. Honestly... Seriously. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:12:08 AM EDT
[#16]
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I think this has been answered... And I don't see *any* confusion. And I do not see any difference between Biblical teachings and BOM teachings on the subject... Matt 3:13 ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 3 Nephi 31:1818 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So in other words, when the BOM and KJV say God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, there are no other gods, your reply simply is yes - there are no other gods; because all these verses that state there is but only one God, is just in reference to they are one - in purpose, and not Persons. I think this has been answered... And I don't see *any* confusion. And I do not see any difference between Biblical teachings and BOM teachings on the subject... Matt 3:13 ¶Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 3 Nephi 31:1818 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. I don't think your choosing the correct LDS teaching item there as what is in conflict. The Nephi verse doesn't appear to disagree with Mark on face value, I agree. I'd think the teachings being referenced are ones more centered are ideology like this: Doctrines and Covenants Section 132 17:21 17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. 18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. Now I realize I didn't just quote the Book of Mormon, but rather the Doctrines and Covenants. I presume it has the same weight because, per the LDS: The Doctrine and Covenantsof The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Containing Revelations Given to Joseph Smith, the Prophet with Some Additions by His Successors in the Presidency of the Church Introduction The Doctrine and Covenants is a collection of divine revelations and inspired declarations given for the establishment and regulation of the kingdom of God on the earth in the last days. Although most of the sections are directed to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the messages, warnings, and exhortations are for the benefit of all mankind and contain an invitation to all people everywhere to hear the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to them for their temporal well-being and their everlasting salvation. Most of the revelations in this compilation were received through Joseph Smith Jr., the first prophet and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Others were issued through some of his successors in the Presidency (see headings to D&C 135, 136, and 138, and Official Declarations 1 and 2). The book of Doctrine and Covenants is one of the standard works of the Church in company with the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Pearl of Great Price. However, the Doctrine and Covenants is unique because it is not a translation of an ancient document, but is of modern origin and was given of God through His chosen prophets for the restoration of His holy work and the establishment of the kingdom of God on the earth in these days. In the revelations, one hears the tender but firm voice of the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking anew in the dispensation of the fulness of times; and the work that is initiated herein is preparatory to His Second Coming, in fulfillment of and in concert with the words of all the holy prophets since the world began. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:13:10 AM EDT
[#17]
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Stupid auto correct on my phone always does that for some reason. At least you can use the PHONE auto-correct as a plausible excuse, I do all my major typos on a laptop.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:14:36 AM EDT
[#18]
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Stupid auto correct on my phone always does that for some reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Almost every Mormon I know has fully accepted Christmas in their heart, Trying to keep it light. I have to LOL.  We do love Christmas! In a HUGE way Stupid auto correct on my phone always does that for some reason. Haha...I do it all the time. I was just having fun with it -- no worries! 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:16:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:16:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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In a HUGE way No kidding. http://www.templesquare.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/temple-square-lights.jpg Love that picture. Have you seen pictures or been to the San Diego temple? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:21:31 AM EDT
[#21]
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They cannot wrap their head around that. You know that they cannot. They *hate* us for being prepared, just as much as they hate us for calling-out Constantine's paganism, and the apostasy... That "protestants" (who broke away from the Catholic Church) ~mostly agree with (when we are not around). There is zero love for even common-ground from the most-serious haters... The most angst-filled see the farms, ranches, and preparedness to share with others as selfishness. Seriously. Not kidding. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, you're simple alright.... Ya know, if this upsets you so much, you could simply stop replying. You antagonists have forgotton the first shots fired were by the antagonists, your actions dictate our reactions. And since your kind hates us so much, when disasters hit, why do you beg us for food, water, clothing, medical aid, labor? You guys hate us so much... They cannot wrap their head around that. You know that they cannot. They *hate* us for being prepared, just as much as they hate us for calling-out Constantine's paganism, and the apostasy... That "protestants" (who broke away from the Catholic Church) ~mostly agree with (when we are not around). There is zero love for even common-ground from the most-serious haters... The most angst-filled see the farms, ranches, and preparedness to share with others as selfishness. Seriously. Not kidding. Oh, you are very right. The odd thing is, our history, US History, shows, people just like THEM, involved in some of the most heinous atrocities committed by our countrymen upon us, simply because we are LDS. How these guys act, they are cut from the same fabric. If the law STILL allowed that kind of conduct, they would be doing far more than posting colored words on a computer screen. I realize that is a bold statement, but it's been said, I know these men by their works HERE. They've all but come out and said it. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:24:01 AM EDT
[#22]
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Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. God has dominion over the whole universe, but God is not physical to earth. He, placing himself on the earth in the form of Christ, would be the one to raise Christ from the grave. While Christ was wholly God, he was wholly human....existing here with the intent to save us, in a realm filled with sin where God is not of. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:27:23 AM EDT
[#23]
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Love that picture. Have you seen pictures or been to the San Diego temple? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In a HUGE way No kidding. http://www.templesquare.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/temple-square-lights.jpg Love that picture. Have you seen pictures or been to the San Diego temple? Yes. Been there. My *new* favorite is the Indy Temple. 
Grew up in the shadow of the Jordan River... |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:29:00 AM EDT
[#24]
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And, if you look at the timeline of events, Christ visited the American Continent in the BOM, taught the people, established a Church, called leaders to receive revelation... And the verse turns-up *after* that ~mostly matches a verse from the Bible. It would fit the BOM narrative. Quote HistoryQuoted:
And, if you look at the timeline of events, Christ visited the American Continent in the BOM, taught the people, established a Church, called leaders to receive revelation... And the verse turns-up *after* that ~mostly matches a verse from the Bible. It would fit the BOM narrative. It fits the BOM narrative, if you ignore the lack there of evidence. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to (ca.53-54 AD); Moroni's quotation of the similar dialog on the golden plates, still hasn't been found. This only leaves speculation that Smith quoted from Paul as we have Paul's writings, but not Moroni's. Show us the plates, and we'll know Moroni and Paul both quoted this same "source" during the same time period during the birth of the Christian church. Until then, the burden of proof is on the LDS church as you presented nothing but speculation. Quoted:
The interesting part in the link that was provided earlier is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were also originally translated (outside the LDS Church) in the same sort of language. I actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls on display at the Seattle Science Center. They were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Nabataean, long before English. They don't literally translate into "thou" and "thee". It's silly for you to think such. Quoted:
Why would God do it that way for the BOM? Because that is the language people understood when reading the scriptures. Or again, maybe its the language that was popular at the time and Smith (not god) knew would be better received by the public? Why is the bible today translated into the NIV, ESV, etc from the original manuscripts? Because today, its a dialect that is more popular and widely known to be received as it fits our dialect better. We have the source material of the gospels, epistles, etc. to make the dialect changes from the languages of the original manuscripts, but we still don't have the source material of the BOM. This is problematic. This is like me saying by divine inspiration, I know what Paul said 2000 years ago to the church at Philippi, without actually having the source material. The bible is trustworthy because we have the evidence that supports it (see last point). Quoted:
I also appreciate you writing about the translation of the BOM. Notice that there is no mention. None. No mention of the Bible being present in the translation process... If you are to believe that it was done by the gift of God, and the translation was shown on a rock, then you are to believe their word that he had no other documents with him... Yet it took the world's greatest bible scholars years to finish their work on translating the authorized KJV from the original manuscripts, yet it only took young Smith only 3 years time to translate the "Inspired KJV", despite the fact that he has no knowledge of the biblical language. My trust would be in learned biblical scholars, who translated one language into the next as a team and under peer review, and not a young Smith, who simply was "inspired" and made tons of omissions and additions to better fit the narrative as he worked independently. Quoted:
We have the "source" documents. We can track *every* word, every change, every period, every comma. We have the "source" documents. Yeah, the vast majority of "changes" are minor punctuation, and spelling fixes... And many early Church fathers, Martyr, Dionysius, and Origen each -separately- stated that Bible parts were removed... And each translation of the Bible contains potentially thousands of "changes" as well... Source documents? There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscripts of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and are available for inspection today. There are also more than 86,000 quotations from the New Testament from early church fathers. and several thousand lectionaries (church-service books containing scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). Is there even a single extant plate supporting the Book of Mormon? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:30:11 AM EDT
[#25]
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I realize that is a bold statement, but it's been said, I know these men by their works HERE. They've all but come out and said it. Oye. Lump in the throat type thing... |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:40:23 AM EDT
[#26]
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God has dominion over the whole universe, but God is not physical to earth. He, placing himself on the earth in the form of Christ, would be the one to raise Christ from the grave. While Christ was wholly God, he was wholly human....existing here with the intent to save us, in a realm filled with sin where God is not of. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. God has dominion over the whole universe, but God is not physical to earth. He, placing himself on the earth in the form of Christ, would be the one to raise Christ from the grave. While Christ was wholly God, he was wholly human....existing here with the intent to save us, in a realm filled with sin where God is not of. Jesus Christ was not then, nor is he now, God. God never had a reason to be wholly Human as Christ, he SENT Christ to do the work that had lay ahead of Christ. To consider such is to believe in a God that is suffering Schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, utterly insane. We (LDS) Call this THE BLOB GOD. It's nicene creed, which we vehemently do NOT under the slightest circumstance subscribe to and consider it utter heresy. We also consider it a violation of the commandments as set forth in Exodus 20.3 "I am the LORD THY GOD" 1.(First commandment) "Thou shalt have no other God's before me". Claiming Christ is God is a direct violation STATUTE ONE of the commandments. Nicene creed was written by the Nicene counsel in the year 325 Anno Domini (Or CE for the Atheists out there). The 10 commandments were given to Moses in the year 1446 (Or there about) BEFORE CHRIST. Mainstream Christians seems to have great difficulty counting time. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:42:47 AM EDT
[#27]
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Oye. Lump in the throat type thing... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I realize that is a bold statement, but it's been said, I know these men by their works HERE. They've all but come out and said it. Oye. Lump in the throat type thing... Oh, tell me about it. It's something we as latter day saints need to be cautious of, these guys are bonified fanatics, very much extremists. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:45:28 AM EDT
[#28]
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Oh, tell me about it. It's something we as latter day saints need to be cautious of, these guys are bonified fanatics, very much extremists. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I realize that is a bold statement, but it's been said, I know these men by their works HERE. They've all but come out and said it. Oye. Lump in the throat type thing... Oh, tell me about it. It's something we as latter day saints need to be cautious of, these guys are bonified fanatics, very much extremists. Shiite Christians?
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:47:23 AM EDT
[#29]
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Jesus Christ was not then, nor is he now, God. God never had a reason to be wholly Human as Christ, he SENT Christ to do the work that had lay ahead of Christ. To consider such is to believe in a God that is suffering Schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, utterly insane. We (LDS) Call this THE BLOB GOD. It's nicene creed, which we vehemently do NOT under the slightest circumstance subscribe to and consider it utter heresy. We also consider it a violation of the commandments as set forth in Exodus 20.3 "I am the LORD THY GOD" 1.(First commandment) "Thou shalt have no other God's before me". Claiming Christ is God is a direct violation STATUTE ONE of the commandments. Nicene creed was written by the Nicene counsel in the year 325 Anno Domini (Or CE for the Atheists out there). The 10 commandments were given to Moses in the year 1446 (Or there about) BEFORE CHRIST. Mainstream Christians seems to have great difficulty counting time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. God has dominion over the whole universe, but God is not physical to earth. He, placing himself on the earth in the form of Christ, would be the one to raise Christ from the grave. While Christ was wholly God, he was wholly human....existing here with the intent to save us, in a realm filled with sin where God is not of. Jesus Christ was not then, nor is he now, God. God never had a reason to be wholly Human as Christ, he SENT Christ to do the work that had lay ahead of Christ. To consider such is to believe in a God that is suffering Schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, utterly insane. We (LDS) Call this THE BLOB GOD. It's nicene creed, which we vehemently do NOT under the slightest circumstance subscribe to and consider it utter heresy. We also consider it a violation of the commandments as set forth in Exodus 20.3 "I am the LORD THY GOD" 1.(First commandment) "Thou shalt have no other God's before me". Claiming Christ is God is a direct violation STATUTE ONE of the commandments. Nicene creed was written by the Nicene counsel in the year 325 Anno Domini (Or CE for the Atheists out there). The 10 commandments were given to Moses in the year 1446 (Or there about) BEFORE CHRIST. Mainstream Christians seems to have great difficulty counting time. John Chapter 10 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 12:58:58 AM EDT
[#30]
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Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. God the Father raised the Son. The Son raised Himself. And the Spirit raised Him. How? Because these three are one. God the Father: Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) God the Son: John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. God the Holy Spirit: Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. How about that? God the Father raised Jesus... but, but, but.... Jesus raised Jesus... but, but, but... the Spirit raised Jesus. That's right! The triune God. Biblical proof before your very eyes! |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:06:46 AM EDT
[#31]
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Jesus Christ was not then, nor is he now, God. Is 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isiah 9:6 refers to that virgin born child born to Mary. Jesus Christ. He is the mighty God. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:07:46 AM EDT
[#32]
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It fits the BOM narrative, if you ignore the lack there of evidence. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to (ca.53-54 AD); Moroni's quotation of the similar dialog on the golden plates, still hasn't been found. This only leaves speculation that Smith quoted from Paul as we have Paul's writings, but not Moroni's. Show us the plates, and we'll know Moroni and Paul both quoted this same "source" during the same time period during the birth of the Christian church. Until then, the burden of proof is on the LDS church as you presented nothing but speculation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
It fits the BOM narrative, if you ignore the lack there of evidence. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians is dated to (ca.53-54 AD); Moroni's quotation of the similar dialog on the golden plates, still hasn't been found. This only leaves speculation that Smith quoted from Paul as we have Paul's writings, but not Moroni's. Show us the plates, and we'll know Moroni and Paul both quoted this same "source" during the same time period during the birth of the Christian church. Until then, the burden of proof is on the LDS church as you presented nothing but speculation. What evidence needs to be ignored? Seriously. Honestly. We believe the Bible through *faith.* We believe the Book of Mormon through *faith.* Paul --who received his revelation from Christ-- wrote his writings after the time of Christ. Moroni wrote his writings several hundred years later --claiming to be privy to Christ as revelation-- *after* Christ had visited the American continent. It fits the BOM narrative for Moroni to be teaching similar things... Which ***all*** needs to be taken with faith. I don't need to provide any works, or evidence, or plates. You can know the Bible is true through faith. Same as the Book of Mormon. I get the impression that you might be saying, "The BOM needs to be taken with faith. But the Bible has a different standard. It does not require faith." If that is what you are saying, then you are wrong. Spiritual things must be understood spiritually. I believe the Bible through faith on its word. I believe the BOM for the same reason... Faith. Quoted:
I actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls on display at the Seattle Science Center. They were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Nabataean, long before English. They don't literally translate into "thou" and "thee". It's silly for you to think such. I can translate rap lyrics into Elizabethan English too, but it kind of looses it's meaning from the original manuscripts. The point was not on the source document. The point was on the first translation of them for the public... From the link that was originally provided to you. It is a good and valid point. The original for-the-public translation was into a KJV similar writing... Why? Because it was what people could recognize at the time... "Thee and thou" are considered special, and reverent... Link Quoted:
Or again, maybe its the language that was popular at the time and Smith knew would be better received by the public? Why is the bible today translated into the NIV, ESV, etc? Because today, its a dialect that is more popular and widely known to be received as it fits our dialect better, but doesn't change the meaning of the message. It could very-well be that God wanted the verbology of the Book of Mormon to match that of the KJV of the Bible. It is the language and writing style the people ever knew. But I absolutely believe that it was by the gift and power of God that it was translated... We read from the KJV of the Bible. Quoted:
Yet it took the world's greatest bible scholars years to finish their work on translating the authorized KJV from the original manuscripts, yet it only took young Smith only 3 years time to translate the "Inspired KJV", despite the fact that he has no knowledge of the biblical language. I do not understand you point, here? Honestly. We read from the KJV of the Bible. We use the KJV of the Bible. Smith did not claim to "translate" the Bible from the original source documents, and what Smith intended to use his Bible for, we do not know. Perhaps as a reference. That is all I have ever seen it used for. I have never seen Smith's translation in LDS services or teachings. I saw a professor in college had one on his shelf. Only one I have ever seen. LDS my entire life. Quoted:
My trust would be in learned biblical scholars, who translated one language into the next as a team and under peer review, and not a young Smith, who simply was "inspired" and made tons of omissions and additions to better fit the narrative as he worked independently. We read from the KJV of the Bible... There are only extremely limited parts of Smiths translation that we accept as correct and doctrinal. I have only ever seen Smith's "inspired" Bible --as a Bible-- used as a reference, and only then by a college professor. I have never seen it used. Ever. From the LDS Church website: "It is evident from the manuscripts prepared by the Prophet and his scribes, and also from the statements by the Prophet himself, that he did not correct all of the passages that could be corrected in the Bible. Hence, the new translation is not finished. It is not a perfect Bible." "In view of the fact that the Prophet did not complete the work, and because the new translation is published and copyrighted by the Reorganized Church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not accept it as authoritative, although it is read by many Latter-day Saints." -Link |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:08:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Source documents? There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscripts of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and are available for inspection today. There are also more than 86,000 quotations from the New Testament from early church fathers. and several thousand lectionaries (church-service books containing scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). Is there even a single extant plate supporting the Book of Mormon? We believe the Bible. We do not have the original writings of Paul. We do not have the original writings of Peter. Those things we do not have. We can get close. But we simply do not have them... And Martyr, Origen, and Dionysius all claim that parts of the Bible were removed in the first three centuries before the pagan Constantine unified the church under him... We have Smiths own writing. We have the 1830 edition and the 1839 edition that Smith wrote the printer manuscript for. That is what is meant by the original documents... We have Smith's handwriting. We do not have Pauls or Peters... That was my point. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:14:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Holy shit, you fucks have been arguing for like 40 pages about which flavor of religion is right. It's like watching two neckbeards argue about which is better: Star Wars or Star Trek (it's Star Trek by the way).
Protip for both camps: you cannot use words from a fictional book as a way to prove a fictional story is true. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:16:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Jesus isn't God?
Somebody doesn't know the Bible. They probably think Israelites aren't Jews, either. Who is Saviour? GOD in the Old Testament: 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. Ps 106:21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Who is Saviour? GOD in the New Testament: Lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Jude 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. And that God and Saviour is the Lord Jesus Christ: Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Ac 5: 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:19:54 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Holy shit, you fucks have been arguing for like 40 pages about which flavor of religion is right. It's like watching two neckbeards argue about which is better: Star Wars or Star Trek (it's Star Trek by the way). Protip for both camps: you cannot use words from a fictional book as a way to prove a fictional story is true. The most offended I'll ever be is when a Trekkie tells me the Bible is fictional. JK.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:24:44 AM EDT
[#37]
Jesus isn't God?
That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament: The Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:26:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The most offended I'll ever be is when a Trekkie tells me the Bible is fictional. JK. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Holy shit, you fucks have been arguing for like 40 pages about which flavor of religion is right. It's like watching two neckbeards argue about which is better: Star Wars or Star Trek (it's Star Trek by the way). Protip for both camps: you cannot use words from a fictional book as a way to prove a fictional story is true. The most offended I'll ever be is when a Trekkie tells me the Bible is fictional. JK. hahaha. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:27:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:27:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus isn't God? That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament?: 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Yes! King Jesus was the stone hewn from the mountain (a.k.a. of/part of God) sent to one day destroy Babylon and the kingdom of this world. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:27:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus isn't God? That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament: The Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. In the lord of the rings books they talked about trees walking. If I were state that I know for a fact that trees walk, and then referenced the lord of the rings as a source, you would think I was insane. Interesting how that works isn't it? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:30:39 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the lord of the rings books they talked about trees walking. If I were state that I know for a fact that trees walk, and then referenced the lord of the rings as a source, you would think I was insane. Interesting how that works isn't it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Jesus isn't God? That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament: The Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. In the lord of the rings books they talked about trees walking. If I were state that I know for a fact that trees walk, and then referenced the lord of the rings as a source, you would think I was insane. Interesting how that works isn't it? Did you mention Lord of the Rings because you do or don't know about J.R.R. Tolkien's religious beliefs and Christian symbolism/metaphors he used in the books? Or was that by sheer coincidence? |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:37:31 AM EDT
[#43]
According to the Old Testament, who has the throne FOREVER?
Ps 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right scepter. Why God of course. According to the New Testament, who has the throne FOREVER? Why God of course. Heb 1 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Well, how about that! Jesus Christ is God in both testaments! |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:38:48 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you mention Lord of the Rings because you do or don't know about J.R.R. Tolkien's religious beliefs and Christian symbolism/metaphors he used in the books? Or was that by sheer coincidence? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Jesus isn't God? That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament: The Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. In the lord of the rings books they talked about trees walking. If I were state that I know for a fact that trees walk, and then referenced the lord of the rings as a source, you would think I was insane. Interesting how that works isn't it? Did you mention Lord of the Rings because you do or don't know about J.R.R. Tolkien's religious beliefs and Christian symbolism/metaphors he used in the books? Or was that by sheer coincidence? I think the latter. 
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:43:10 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shiite Christians? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I realize that is a bold statement, but it's been said, I know these men by their works HERE. They've all but come out and said it. Oye. Lump in the throat type thing... Oh, tell me about it. It's something we as latter day saints need to be cautious of, these guys are bonified fanatics, very much extremists. Shiite Christians?  Pretty much!
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:44:39 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the latter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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Jesus isn't God? That statement must come from people who think that men can become gods. Who is the Rock of the Old Testament? GOD. De 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. De 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. De 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. 2Sa 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2Sa 22:47 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation. 2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted. Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Ps 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Ps 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Ps 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Ps 94:22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge. Isa 17:10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: The identity of the Rock is provided in the New Testament: The Lord Jesus Christ 1 Cor 10 10:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. In the lord of the rings books they talked about trees walking. If I were state that I know for a fact that trees walk, and then referenced the lord of the rings as a source, you would think I was insane. Interesting how that works isn't it? Did you mention Lord of the Rings because you do or don't know about J.R.R. Tolkien's religious beliefs and Christian symbolism/metaphors he used in the books? Or was that by sheer coincidence? I think the latter.
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:47:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God the Father raised the Son. The Son raised Himself. And the Spirit raised Him. How? Because these three are one. God the Father: Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) God the Son: John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. God the Holy Spirit: Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. How about that? God the Father raised Jesus... but, but, but.... Jesus raised Jesus... but, but, but... the Spirit raised Jesus. That's right! The triune God. Biblical proof before your very eyes! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Deuteronomy 6:Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Deuteronomy means The Lord GOD is the ONE GOD. Romans clearly shows you that GOD had raised Jesus from the Dead, NOT GOD had raised HIMSELF, two names there have been given, hence two separate beings. God the Father raised the Son. The Son raised Himself. And the Spirit raised Him. How? Because these three are one. God the Father: Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) God the Son: John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. God the Holy Spirit: Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. How about that? God the Father raised Jesus... but, but, but.... Jesus raised Jesus... but, but, but... the Spirit raised Jesus. That's right! The triune God. Biblical proof before your very eyes! Actually, you contradicted yourself twice. What you speak of is none sense, it's not even biblical. The Nicene creed isn't even biblical. 325 years after Christ died and they made this crap up, it wasn't until the last decade this crap even became popular! No one believed this bologna until then! It's like some lame fad! Now the Fundies (YOU) work so hard to twist scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean, you can gold plate a turd as many times as you want, it's STILL a gold plated turd. There's only ONE God, and Jesus is his son, not HIM. Thanks for playing, but you lose again. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:49:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isiah 9:6 refers to that virgin born child born to Mary. Jesus Christ. He is the mighty God. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Jesus Christ was not then, nor is he now, God. Is 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isiah 9:6 refers to that virgin born child born to Mary. Jesus Christ. He is the mighty God. Again, false spin and twist, you never quit bullshitting. It's laughable. Face it, you worship a fake god. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:49:52 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus isn't God? Somebody doesn't know the Bible. They probably think Israelites aren't Jews, either. Who is Saviour? GOD in the Old Testament: 2Sa 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence. Ps 106:21 They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Isa 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Ho 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Who is Saviour? GOD in the New Testament: Lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Jude 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. And that God and Saviour is the Lord Jesus Christ: Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Ac 5: 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Ahh, when CRYley sings.... More manure. |
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Posted: 8/30/2015 1:52:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. So taken out of CONTEXT! Next thing you'll be trying to sell me is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are BORG... 
CRYley, your GOD doesn't exist... It's bullshit! Utter bullshit! You'd have more out of worshiping a toad. In fact, go get a toad, call it "CRYleys GOD", kiss it, lick it, lavish it, love on it, it's a God with more going for it than that mentally ill BLOB GOD that talks to himself has going for it. |
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