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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:27:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would they have used the same tactics as bastion? That is my argument, AF SF aren't some super chuck Norris fighters, they use the right TTPs, that is their strength. The tactics of the Insurgents used at Bastion were superior. Using uniforms to try to pass off as American or Afghanis to get close enough to engage/infiltrate. Instead of a frontal attack at a gate. It's pretty fucking easy to defend some place if you know they are enemy. Trust me, done it a bunch of times. Very hard to know if they are wearing ANA/ANP/US Uniforms. cause I fucking know about that too. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:28:58 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would they have used the same tactics as bastion? That is my argument, AF SF aren't some super chuck Norris fighters, they use the right TTPs, that is their strength. Since their main TTP seems to be telling civvies that they kick in doors and bail out SF dudes, I wouldn't exactly call that a strength. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:29:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was a security police at a sac nuke base we were far from " mall cops" I was 5'10 benched 340lbs and was a m-60 gunner and a 203 gunner , if you called me or any other sp a mall cop you would have got the crap beat out of you ...., just saying Mall cop mall cop mall cop |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:29:47 AM EDT
[#4]
The attackers at Bagram were in ACUs
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:31:39 AM EDT
[#5]
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"The raid was a complex and coordinated assault by 19 Taliban fighters dressed in United States Army uniforms using several types of weapons which took place on the eastern side of Camp Bastion near to the USMC aircraft hangars at 22:00 local time (17:30 GMT). The assault team penetrated the perimeter of the camp, guarded by troops from Tonga, and separated into three teams to carry out the attack" I am not a Marine but, know your facts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AF SF are not infantry, but they do similar jobs, just like someone can cook but that doesn't mean they are a cook. If you want a good example of what they are good at, look at the may attack on Bagram, AF were in charge of security there, something like 13 insurgents attacked with MG RPGs suicide vests. SF saw them coming and wiped them out, (yes eventually called in some apaches for one or two last hold outs). In comparison look at the attack on camp bastion, Marine FOB, 6 harriers destroyed before anyone knew the 8 insurgents were inside, a couple Marines dead including the CO. AF SF are the best in the world at what they do, aggressively defend a piece of real-estate. Look at what they did during the yet offensive too. Remember they were also designed to stop spetznas in Europe from messing with our airbases there. Finally look up Lt Joeseph Helton if you want an example of a great defender. "The raid was a complex and coordinated assault by 19 Taliban fighters dressed in United States Army uniforms using several types of weapons which took place on the eastern side of Camp Bastion near to the USMC aircraft hangars at 22:00 local time (17:30 GMT). The assault team penetrated the perimeter of the camp, guarded by troops from Tonga, and separated into three teams to carry out the attack" I am not a Marine but, know your facts. And the bagram attack was halted by army special forces. Two of them earned BSM-Vs for climbing over the perimeter wall to kill mujis and retrieve wounded ISAF gate guards (since most of the installation security is non american.) |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:34:00 AM EDT
[#6]
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PERSEC. That's how all of my family portraits look, my kids, the wife, the goldfish... all of them. Isn't there an app for that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He has a framed picture of his squad (flight?) suited up and faces blurred in his cubicle.  PERSEC. That's how all of my family portraits look, my kids, the wife, the goldfish... all of them. Isn't there an app for that? I have a new mission...... now to get the cat and dog to sit still 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:34:20 AM EDT
[#7]
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The attackers at Bagram were in ACUs Bet one of us was there and one of us wasn't. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:35:37 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the bagram attack was halted by army special forces. Two of them earned BSM-Vs for climbing over the perimeter wall to kill mujis and retrieve wounded ISAF gate guards (since most of the installation security is non american.) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AF SF are not infantry, but they do similar jobs, just like someone can cook but that doesn't mean they are a cook. If you want a good example of what they are good at, look at the may attack on Bagram, AF were in charge of security there, something like 13 insurgents attacked with MG RPGs suicide vests. SF saw them coming and wiped them out, (yes eventually called in some apaches for one or two last hold outs). In comparison look at the attack on camp bastion, Marine FOB, 6 harriers destroyed before anyone knew the 8 insurgents were inside, a couple Marines dead including the CO. AF SF are the best in the world at what they do, aggressively defend a piece of real-estate. Look at what they did during the yet offensive too. Remember they were also designed to stop spetznas in Europe from messing with our airbases there. Finally look up Lt Joeseph Helton if you want an example of a great defender. "The raid was a complex and coordinated assault by 19 Taliban fighters dressed in United States Army uniforms using several types of weapons which took place on the eastern side of Camp Bastion near to the USMC aircraft hangars at 22:00 local time (17:30 GMT). The assault team penetrated the perimeter of the camp, guarded by troops from Tonga, and separated into three teams to carry out the attack" I am not a Marine but, know your facts. And the bagram attack was halted by army special forces. Two of them earned BSM-Vs for climbing over the perimeter wall to kill mujis and retrieve wounded ISAF gate guards (since most of the installation security is non american.) Interesting |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:36:35 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought the AF was supposed to be smart....lazy, but smart. Some of those guys are so fucking ignorant, they believe that what makes you "infantry" is carrying a weapon with a barrel longer than my flaccid Johnson after a long run through the snow. I had to check IDs at the gate to an airfield and salute the wives of officers for exactly one singular day (detail during someone's block leave)...that was the furthest thing from infantry work I have ever done. Police-calling leaves from the woodline is more infantry than that shit....a fucking leafblower is more infantry than that gate-guard "SF" shit. Hell, we had our cooks and commo guys pull gate-guard, in actual combat zones. They were still pogues. <3 Did you forgot to ask permission to cross the red line? |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:36:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And the bagram attack was halted by army special forces. Two of them earned BSM-Vs for climbing over the perimeter wall to kill mujis and retrieve wounded ISAF gate guards (since most of the installation security is non american.) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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AF SF are not infantry, but they do similar jobs, just like someone can cook but that doesn't mean they are a cook. If you want a good example of what they are good at, look at the may attack on Bagram, AF were in charge of security there, something like 13 insurgents attacked with MG RPGs suicide vests. SF saw them coming and wiped them out, (yes eventually called in some apaches for one or two last hold outs). In comparison look at the attack on camp bastion, Marine FOB, 6 harriers destroyed before anyone knew the 8 insurgents were inside, a couple Marines dead including the CO. AF SF are the best in the world at what they do, aggressively defend a piece of real-estate. Look at what they did during the yet offensive too. Remember they were also designed to stop spetznas in Europe from messing with our airbases there. Finally look up Lt Joeseph Helton if you want an example of a great defender. "The raid was a complex and coordinated assault by 19 Taliban fighters dressed in United States Army uniforms using several types of weapons which took place on the eastern side of Camp Bastion near to the USMC aircraft hangars at 22:00 local time (17:30 GMT). The assault team penetrated the perimeter of the camp, guarded by troops from Tonga, and separated into three teams to carry out the attack" I am not a Marine but, know your facts. And the bagram attack was halted by army special forces. Two of them earned BSM-Vs for climbing over the perimeter wall to kill mujis and retrieve wounded ISAF gate guards (since most of the installation security is non american.) Must be thinking of different attack then cause all security was handled by AF SF, but I know it has gone back and forth lots. I've got the videos from the towers and apaches on my computer. Here is another attack where the insurgents wore ACUs. http://www.lakenheath.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123240045 |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:39:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Still not impressed.
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:39:37 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote History90th Fighter Squadron (AMU) from Elmendorf AFB. Wonder if Taylor WSO recognizes this guy? |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:40:00 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:43:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still not impressed. Ok |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:46:12 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone trolled you retards into a tank fight.  Not really. AF Security Forces troops say this stupid shit all the time. I've been doing my best to police it where I see it for the last 16 years. We have a job to do and it ain't to embellish what we actually do. That gives a bad name to all the good people out there doing the job. If they'd just keep their mouth shut and do the job, everything would be fine. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 4:49:49 AM EDT
[#16]
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Ok Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still not impressed. Ok I can tell your a Tier 1 SF Operator. 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 5:52:43 AM EDT
[#17]
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I can tell your a Tier 1 SF Operator. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still not impressed. Ok I can tell your a Tier 1 SF Operator. oh no, You are the baddest of asses. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 5:57:39 AM EDT
[#18]
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Shit, you guys have never hung out with Ranger BATT boys..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The real heroes are usually quiet about what they have done, the more noise they make, the less likely they are legit. True that! Shit, you guys have never hung out with Ranger BATT boys..... they talk huge shit. except for what they do. those guys and submariners don't say a fucking thing about their actual operations. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 5:59:50 AM EDT
[#19]
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oh no, You are the baddest of asses. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still not impressed. Ok I can tell your a Tier 1 SF Operator. oh no, You are the baddest of asses. I've never claimed that. I haven't even tried to pimp my branch/job in this thread by putting down other branches or jobs like you have. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 6:01:18 AM EDT
[#20]
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IIRC the "demand" for TACPs is a forced requirement, is it not? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Unless he was CCT or PJ, he's a fucking dipshit. If he's referring to Security Forces, he should be laughed at and ridiculed until he runs home crying. or TACP, even though they are not technically SOF plus I think the weather guys are considered SOF, no? Myself being a TACP, you graduate on the conventional side of the house, and then can try out for the SOF side of the house. We have guys that are assigned to the (real) SF Groups, and are also within 75th Ranger Regiment. Due to the high demand for JTACs, you can also simply get tasked to be aligned with a SOF unit in your AO even though not a "SOF TACP". Our last fallen TACP was a Regiment TACP. He was a 100% full time SOF TACP. http://sofrep.com/tacp/ https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10268533_820887464590838_4569889852878957907_n.jpg?oh=de04dc528e665681d8b29e638cdf8c75&oe=547B5DA9&__gda__=1417593241_60d9a1067a6244ab9a48509b7e9e88d9 IIRC the "demand" for TACPs is a forced requirement, is it not? No. In best example, General Hagenbeck opted not to bring any of his TACPs attached to 10th Mountain for Operation Anaconda, officer or enlisted. Col. Longoria responsible for providing TACP support for the entire theater, felt this was a mistake and had to pull strings. In the end, Longoria's foresight, was right - and it became a big controversy for the general when the bomb smoke settled. To put it bluntly, I personally know a TACP that earned a silver star for his work in Anaconda, because air power was eventually so heavily relied upon. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 6:08:20 AM EDT
[#21]
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Notice how you are focused on the defense of a fixed position. Its called a clue.  
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Posted: 8/18/2014 6:08:24 AM EDT
[#22]
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He has a framed picture of his squad (flight?) suited up and faces blurred in his cubicle. One guy even quiped, "infantry?... so you were an air force ASVAB waiver?"  I can almost guarantee the guy you are talking about was in my group....send me what squadron he was in via IM so I can verify. 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 6:44:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. In best example, General Hagenbeck opted not to bring any of his TACPs attached to 10th Mountain for Operation Anaconda, officer or enlisted. Col. Longoria responsible for providing TACP support for the entire theater, felt this was a mistake and had to pull strings. In the end, Longoria's foresight, was right - and it became a big controversy for the general when the bomb smoke settled. To put it bluntly, I personally know a TACP that earned a silver star for his work in Anaconda, because air power was eventually so heavily relied upon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Unless he was CCT or PJ, he's a fucking dipshit. If he's referring to Security Forces, he should be laughed at and ridiculed until he runs home crying. or TACP, even though they are not technically SOF plus I think the weather guys are considered SOF, no? Myself being a TACP, you graduate on the conventional side of the house, and then can try out for the SOF side of the house. We have guys that are assigned to the (real) SF Groups, and are also within 75th Ranger Regiment. Due to the high demand for JTACs, you can also simply get tasked to be aligned with a SOF unit in your AO even though not a "SOF TACP". Our last fallen TACP was a Regiment TACP. He was a 100% full time SOF TACP. http://sofrep.com/tacp/ https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10268533_820887464590838_4569889852878957907_n.jpg?oh=de04dc528e665681d8b29e638cdf8c75&oe=547B5DA9&__gda__=1417593241_60d9a1067a6244ab9a48509b7e9e88d9 IIRC the "demand" for TACPs is a forced requirement, is it not? No. In best example, General Hagenbeck opted not to bring any of his TACPs attached to 10th Mountain for Operation Anaconda, officer or enlisted. Col. Longoria responsible for providing TACP support for the entire theater, felt this was a mistake and had to pull strings. In the end, Longoria's foresight, was right - and it became a big controversy for the general when the bomb smoke settled. To put it bluntly, I personally know a TACP that earned a silver star for his work in Anaconda, because air power was eventually so heavily relied upon. The requirement for JTACs was a sop to the Air Force; prior to the 2003 edition of the Joint Pub 3-09.3 there was not a requirement for JTACs. The bottom line was Air Force wanted to severally limit the accessibility of aerial fire support because of the backlash of numerous, a highly publicized fratricide incidents that occurred in ODS and even during state side training. The Air Forces going in position was only qualified and certified Air Force (either Forward Air Controllers or Enlisted Terminal Air Controllers) personnel could provide terminal control of Air Force assets in all but extermis conditions. The Army, with the support of the Marines, was pushing for what was known was being called a universal observer because of the low density of the FAC/ETAC AFSC in the Air Force, so the concession was to create a joint certification minimum standard and the JTACs was born. Having been brought up in the old school, I can see some merit in the JTAC standard because the Army did not do a good job of training its maneuver or fires personnel (only a 2 hour Air Force instructed block and a few SIMCAS missions at the fire school house for the entire OBC class and none for 13Fs in their initial training) but the rigid adherence to the requirement especially in combat makes no sense. I think much of what is a JTAC now, should to transitioned to the JFOs. I could see a need for Type 1 control to be modified, as has been seen in testing over 50 percent of the time even experienced aviators while put in a FAC/ALO role could not through visual cues determine whether the air craft was a threat to friendlies or not prior to its attack. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 7:08:08 AM EDT
[#24]
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This is AF...FIFY. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Unless he was CCT or PJ, he's a fucking dipshit. If he's referring to Security Forces, he should be laughed at and ridiculed until he runs jogs home crying. This is AF...FIFY. LMAO INdeed |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 8:20:22 AM EDT
[#25]
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When I was a security police at a sac nuke base we were far from " mall cops" I was 5'10 benched 340lbs and was a m-60 gunner and a 203 gunner , if you called me or any other sp a mall cop you would have got the crap beat out of you ...., just saying LoL. I hear ya. My mom was truck driver. It messed up her back somethin fierce. 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 8:55:36 AM EDT
[#26]
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435th Security Forces had a combat jump during the invasion of Iraq. They parachuted in with the Army 173rd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/435th_Security_Forces_Squadron Yup. I met an O-4 who was in that drop while I was at Ramstein (from '04-'06). They also did regular qualifying jumps- sometimes with many different countries' military participating- over the airfield every few months. Those guys and the Ravens are the only Security Forces units I implicitly respect. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 10:57:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I was a security police at a sac nuke base we were far from " mall cops" I was 5'10 benched 340lbs and was a m-60 gunner and a 203 gunner , if you called me or any other sp a mall cop you would have got the crap beat out of you ...., just saying 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 11:32:53 AM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 8/18/2014 11:38:02 AM EDT
[#29]
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He was a PJ? As someone who has a good friend who is a AF SF E6, I can tell you for certain that he's talking about Security Forces, which is a lot closer to "Special Ed Forces" than "Special Forces" if I heard his stories right. 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 11:42:56 AM EDT
[#30]
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He has a framed picture of his squad (flight?) suited up and faces blurred in his cubicle. I'm going to start blurring my face in family photos. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 11:49:27 AM EDT
[#31]
This reminds me of an encounter with an AF SSG trying to boss around my guys in AFG because he knew our rank structure and thought he outranked them as "merely" SGTs and thought he was a level higher than them.
He was all butthurt that they were ignoring him, not realizing that they were all E-5s. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 1:20:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Dude called in sick today. Must be that 100% disability kicking in...
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Posted: 8/18/2014 1:47:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The requirement for JTACs was a sop to the Air Force; prior to the 2003 edition of the Joint Pub 3-09.3 there was not a requirement for JTACs. The bottom line was Air Force wanted to severally limit the accessibility of aerial fire support because of the backlash of numerous, a highly publicized fratricide incidents that occurred in ODS and even during state side training. The Air Forces going in position was only qualified and certified Air Force (either Forward Air Controllers or Enlisted Terminal Air Controllers) personnel could provide terminal control of Air Force assets in all but extermis conditions. The Army, with the support of the Marines, was pushing for what was known was being called a universal observer because of the low density of the FAC/ETAC AFSC in the Air Force, so the concession was to create a joint certification minimum standard and the JTACs was born. Having been brought up in the old school, I can see some merit in the JTAC standard because the Army did not do a good job of training its maneuver or fires personnel (only a 2 hour Air Force instructed block and a few SIMCAS missions at the fire school house for the entire OBC class and none for 13Fs in their initial training) but the rigid adherence to the requirement especially in combat makes no sense. I think much of what is a JTAC now, should to transitioned to the JFOs. I could see a need for Type 1 control to be modified, as has been seen in testing over 50 percent of the time even experienced aviators while put in a FAC/ALO role could not through visual cues determine whether the air craft was a threat to friendlies or not prior to its attack. Well, 12 March 2001 in Kuwait changed a lot of things on the Udairi range that day, so did 6 months later when two planes flew into the world trade center. For the first time in history we saw what you get when you combine two force multipliers (ODAs + JTACs) into a single cohesive unit and what they could do to the mountains of Afghanistan, preventing another Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan. The rigid adherence in having a JTAC you speak of is slightly notional. A pilot can drop a bomb without a JTAC present, the pilot takes on the responsibility of control instead of the JTAC, it's just that the added benefits of having that ground/air liaison element that enhances mission success and pilot SA. Regardless, I don't think making JFOs JTACs is the answer. We've sent guys to the Marine's JFO school as well, and have came out distinguished grads. But you're talking about making a 3 week course, a two to three year training pipeline as it currently is for us to be prepped enough to be sent to JTACQC and know and do the job well enough to actually function as a liaison element to the Army. People think being a JTAC is all about "cleared hot", when they couldn't be more wrong. 90% of the job is planning, 3% execution, and 7% rucking with Joe. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 1:52:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, 12 March 2001 in Kuwait changed a lot of things on the Udairi range that day, so did 6 months later when two planes flew into the world trade center. For the first time in history we saw what you get when you combine two force multipliers (ODAs + JTACs) into a single cohesive unit and what they could do to the mountains of Afghanistan, preventing another Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan. The rigid adherence in having a JTAC you speak of is slightly notional. A pilot can drop a bomb without a JTAC present, the pilot takes on the responsibility of control instead of the JTAC, it's just that the added benefits of having that ground/air liaison element that enhances mission success and pilot SA. Regardless, I don't think making JFOs JTACs is the answer. We've sent guys to the Marine's JFO school as well, and have came out distinguished grads. But you're talking about making a 3 week course, a year to three year training pipeline as it currently is for us to be prepped enough to be sent to JTACQC in Nevada, because that's what it requires to be damn good at what we do to be able to pass the evals. Also, people think the job is all about "cleared hot", when they couldn't be more wrong. 90% of the job is planning, 3% execution, and 7% looking cool rucking with Joe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The requirement for JTACs was a sop to the Air Force; prior to the 2003 edition of the Joint Pub 3-09.3 there was not a requirement for JTACs. The bottom line was Air Force wanted to severally limit the accessibility of aerial fire support because of the backlash of numerous, a highly publicized fratricide incidents that occurred in ODS and even during state side training. The Air Forces going in position was only qualified and certified Air Force (either Forward Air Controllers or Enlisted Terminal Air Controllers) personnel could provide terminal control of Air Force assets in all but extermis conditions. The Army, with the support of the Marines, was pushing for what was known was being called a universal observer because of the low density of the FAC/ETAC AFSC in the Air Force, so the concession was to create a joint certification minimum standard and the JTACs was born. Having been brought up in the old school, I can see some merit in the JTAC standard because the Army did not do a good job of training its maneuver or fires personnel (only a 2 hour Air Force instructed block and a few SIMCAS missions at the fire school house for the entire OBC class and none for 13Fs in their initial training) but the rigid adherence to the requirement especially in combat makes no sense. I think much of what is a JTAC now, should to transitioned to the JFOs. I could see a need for Type 1 control to be modified, as has been seen in testing over 50 percent of the time even experienced aviators while put in a FAC/ALO role could not through visual cues determine whether the air craft was a threat to friendlies or not prior to its attack. Well, 12 March 2001 in Kuwait changed a lot of things on the Udairi range that day, so did 6 months later when two planes flew into the world trade center. For the first time in history we saw what you get when you combine two force multipliers (ODAs + JTACs) into a single cohesive unit and what they could do to the mountains of Afghanistan, preventing another Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan. The rigid adherence in having a JTAC you speak of is slightly notional. A pilot can drop a bomb without a JTAC present, the pilot takes on the responsibility of control instead of the JTAC, it's just that the added benefits of having that ground/air liaison element that enhances mission success and pilot SA. Regardless, I don't think making JFOs JTACs is the answer. We've sent guys to the Marine's JFO school as well, and have came out distinguished grads. But you're talking about making a 3 week course, a year to three year training pipeline as it currently is for us to be prepped enough to be sent to JTACQC in Nevada, because that's what it requires to be damn good at what we do to be able to pass the evals. Also, people think the job is all about "cleared hot", when they couldn't be more wrong. 90% of the job is planning, 3% execution, and 7% looking cool rucking with Joe. On both my deployments I saw 2 TACPs, and that was on my second. We had them for 4 days, then they never came back. ETA: Just a random observation. I have no doubt that a trained JTAC/TACP is better than our JFO 13Fs |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 1:54:37 PM EDT
[#35]
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On both my deployments I saw 2 TACPs, and that was on my second. We had them for 4 days, then they never came back. ETA: Just a random observation. I have no doubt that a trained JTAC/TACP is better than our JFO 13Fs Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The requirement for JTACs was a sop to the Air Force; prior to the 2003 edition of the Joint Pub 3-09.3 there was not a requirement for JTACs. The bottom line was Air Force wanted to severally limit the accessibility of aerial fire support because of the backlash of numerous, a highly publicized fratricide incidents that occurred in ODS and even during state side training. The Air Forces going in position was only qualified and certified Air Force (either Forward Air Controllers or Enlisted Terminal Air Controllers) personnel could provide terminal control of Air Force assets in all but extermis conditions. The Army, with the support of the Marines, was pushing for what was known was being called a universal observer because of the low density of the FAC/ETAC AFSC in the Air Force, so the concession was to create a joint certification minimum standard and the JTACs was born. Having been brought up in the old school, I can see some merit in the JTAC standard because the Army did not do a good job of training its maneuver or fires personnel (only a 2 hour Air Force instructed block and a few SIMCAS missions at the fire school house for the entire OBC class and none for 13Fs in their initial training) but the rigid adherence to the requirement especially in combat makes no sense. I think much of what is a JTAC now, should to transitioned to the JFOs. I could see a need for Type 1 control to be modified, as has been seen in testing over 50 percent of the time even experienced aviators while put in a FAC/ALO role could not through visual cues determine whether the air craft was a threat to friendlies or not prior to its attack. Well, 12 March 2001 in Kuwait changed a lot of things on the Udairi range that day, so did 6 months later when two planes flew into the world trade center. For the first time in history we saw what you get when you combine two force multipliers (ODAs + JTACs) into a single cohesive unit and what they could do to the mountains of Afghanistan, preventing another Soviet "Vietnam" in Afghanistan. The rigid adherence in having a JTAC you speak of is slightly notional. A pilot can drop a bomb without a JTAC present, the pilot takes on the responsibility of control instead of the JTAC, it's just that the added benefits of having that ground/air liaison element that enhances mission success and pilot SA. Regardless, I don't think making JFOs JTACs is the answer. We've sent guys to the Marine's JFO school as well, and have came out distinguished grads. But you're talking about making a 3 week course, a year to three year training pipeline as it currently is for us to be prepped enough to be sent to JTACQC in Nevada, because that's what it requires to be damn good at what we do to be able to pass the evals. Also, people think the job is all about "cleared hot", when they couldn't be more wrong. 90% of the job is planning, 3% execution, and 7% looking cool rucking with Joe. On both my deployments I saw 2 TACPs, and that was on my second. We had them for 4 days, then they never came back. ETA: Just a random observation. I have no doubt that a trained JTAC/TACP is better than our JFO 13Fs 13F..tards......
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:01:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
About 90 percent of the guys I served with that were in the 820th were absolutely no different than any other Security Forces troop other than they had a much higher deployment tempo. In fact, I saw a fairly high percentage of fucking douchebag window lickers from the 820th. Not all, of course, as some were fucking great dudes. But there sure were a lot of fuck ups. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is an Airborne AF Security Force unit. The 820th Base Defense Group. They send guys to Ranger School too. About 90 percent of the guys I served with that were in the 820th were absolutely no different than any other Security Forces troop other than they had a much higher deployment tempo. In fact, I saw a fairly high percentage of fucking douchebag window lickers from the 820th. Not all, of course, as some were fucking great dudes. But there sure were a lot of fuck ups. That's going a little easy on the 820th. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:01:48 PM EDT
[#37]
I also wanted to add, I have rated fighter and bomber pilots walking around my squadron in the ALO role, without the exposure to the USAF side, you'll never grasp the planning and USAF capability side of the equation it if you're just an Army JFO who just want's the JTAC IR patch on his arm sleeve. The TACP is primarily a liaison element from the USAF, that just happens to also include a JTAC in it. You don't get that exposure and knowledge if you're never around Air Force. Every mission we plan, is under the scrutiny of pilots, who are able to give us feedback on if it's possible or not and how to better incorporate air power into the mission.
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:06:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your M-60 had an M203? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When I was a security police at a sac nuke base we were far from " mall cops" I was 5'10 benched 340lbs and was a m-60 gunner and a 203 gunner , if you called me or any other sp a mall cop you would have got the crap beat out of you ...., just saying Your M-60 had an M203? |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:07:03 PM EDT
[#39]
Since there's already tank wars going and I can't add anything witty to that, I'll repeat something. There are some Security Forces guys that like to use the letters"SF"because people will assume they were badass. My guess it's either the guys that wish they joined a branch with infantry, or they got out on less than favorable conditions.
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:08:02 PM EDT
[#40]
My mom and dad are both retired AF. They used to say "you cant spell stupid without 'SP'"
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:13:29 PM EDT
[#41]
A co-worker mentioned, when she and him were in-processing for work he got on his knees and started looking around his chair during orientation. The speaker looked at him funny, chuckled and asked him if anything was wrong. He sat back down all serious like and said "sorry, force of habit, looking for devices."
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:14:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A co-worker mentioned, when she and him were in-processing for work he got on his knees and started looking around his chair during orientation. The speaker looked at him funny, chuckled and asked him if anything was wrong. He sat back down all serious like and said "sorry, force of habit, looking for devices." Wow, what a fucking tard. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:16:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A co-worker mentioned, when she and him were in-processing for work he got on his knees and started looking around his chair during orientation. The speaker looked at him funny, chuckled and asked him if anything was wrong. He sat back down all serious like and said "sorry, force of habit, looking for devices." Yep, didn't last a year at his first assignment. 
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:18:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A co-worker mentioned, when she and him were in-processing for work he got on his knees and started looking around his chair during orientation. The speaker looked at him funny, chuckled and asked him if anything was wrong. He sat back down all serious like and said "sorry, force of habit, looking for devices." I rost. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:19:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A co-worker mentioned, when she and him were in-processing for work he got on his knees and started looking around his chair during orientation. The speaker looked at him funny, chuckled and asked him if anything was wrong. He sat back down all serious like and said "sorry, force of habit, looking for devices." He's not just a tool. He's a tool-shed. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:29:09 PM EDT
[#46]
I wonder if he read this thread...
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:31:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder if he read this thread... Hopefully |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:48:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not gonna happen in today's AF. The AETC commander at Lackland just closed the Security Forces Museum and siezed all the assets (alot of them donated and the museum did not take a dime from the AF, surviving on donations only) "just because". No fuckin reason. We dont even secure the gates to our own bases anymore, relying on contract security, which has caused a big drop in morale from what I have seen. This is gonna fuck us folks. And it is gonna leave a big fuckin mark I know about the contractors, didn't mind them grabbing gates. I would have preferred if they didn't though. Or at least make 6 months of gate duty mandatory for new airmen. Plus it is fucking pathetic that I as an E-4(5yr, fuck being an nco in that AFSC) had to show that I deserved to be on a police unit and compete with E-1/2's that hadn't even QC'd yet. Not to sound like a badass but, I worked hard at maintaining my proficiency and never scored below a 90%. As for the museum, wtf? Any more info? I left in June 2013 and I'm sure it hasn't improved. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:52:55 PM EDT
[#49]
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You never hear Marine Security Guards call themselves Infantry, or Marine Fleet Security Call themselves infantry. They are generally quite respected for what they are, and for what they aren't. Many Infantrymen want to be them, Others don't. You just never see the weird obsessive need for validation that shows up in every Air Force "SF" thread. It's bizarre. Then again, this is the same Air Force that called on Army Reserve cooks to guard their air bases for some time after September 11, 2001. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yep, compared to United States Marine Infantry, or ya know, that Army kind, Air Force "Infantry:" is fuckin retarded. Still and all, they are a hell of a lot more "Infantry" than the Iraqi kind. As I said, a lot of this goes back to tech school and Camp Bullis where they go for field training, conducted by Army instructors, teaching from Army manuals. Fortunately, I did not have to go through that shit, my unit decided that they were not going to teach me a damn thing in 4 weeks that I did not know from 9 years in the Corps. I heard some pretty stupid shit from some of the other folks that went through. Also, some of the attitude, unfortunately now being washed away, comes from the old SAC days under Curtis Lemay who wanted his Air Police troops to be steely eyed killers, because he just knew the Russians had thousands of sappers just waiting to attack our nuclear forces. Not too many Generals like him around anymore and the career field is taking some hits because of it. The pride of being the only thing that really stands between the USAF and defeat is being lost. Lets face it, no one challenges us in the air, so if you really wanted to hurt the Air Force, you need to hit it on the ground. The Cop career field is supposed to be the deterrent force, and take the job seriously, but that is being glossed over more and more. The "Guns are Icky" crowd in the upper echelons of the Air Force is growing by leaps and bounds. I think the Air Force would be happy do away with armed troops on its bases altogether. It is gonna hurt bad when it bites them on the ass. I have to agree with this. I was in during the SAC days and through the drawdown when it went to ACC. SAC during the Cold War was a whole different ballgame. We have heard things have changed completely since then....and mostly not for the better. Like it was mentioned earlier in the post, I won't bash this career field for what they do, but I have grown tired of hearing folks embellish what they did while serving in it. I admit I got to do some pretty cool stuff and saw some interesting things, but I wasn't Tier 1 by any means. The "Stay in your lane" rule should apply here I think. IMHO You never hear Marine Security Guards call themselves Infantry, or Marine Fleet Security Call themselves infantry. They are generally quite respected for what they are, and for what they aren't. Many Infantrymen want to be them, Others don't. You just never see the weird obsessive need for validation that shows up in every Air Force "SF" thread. It's bizarre. Then again, this is the same Air Force that called on Army Reserve cooks to guard their air bases for some time after September 11, 2001. Well the favor was returned when the Army was crying that they didn't have enough bodies to defend their convoys and around 20% of our career field was doing the Army's job. |
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Posted: 8/18/2014 2:54:24 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I also wanted to add, I have rated fighter and bomber pilots walking around my squadron in the ALO role, without the exposure to the USAF side, you'll never grasp the planning and USAF capability side of the equation it if you're just an Army JFO who just want's the JTAC IR patch on his arm sleeve. The TACP is primarily a liaison element from the USAF, that just happens to also include a JTAC in it. You don't get that exposure and knowledge if you're never around Air Force. Every mission we plan, is under the scrutiny of pilots, who are able to give us feedback on if it's possible or not and how to better incorporate air power into the mission. |
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