Ephesians 2:8-9.





Galatians 5:4





Romans 4:5  (heck the entire chapter, the one before it and the one after).





 

The problem with Lordship Salvation is addressed in the OP. It was coined by John MacArthur, who teaches that obedience to the Law is required, or you don't have saving faith, which is to say that ultimately, your salvation depends on your performance, and takes faith away from Christ and puts it on the believer's own works.

 

I don't see "alone" in any of those.

The second two don't say anything, in fact.

Sounds like you need to leave the Baptist Church and go with Assemblies of God.

First, that's not true.
Second, though everything in the Bible is true, not all truth is in the Bible.  There is stuff outside the Bible that Christians need to pay attention to.  Like Catholic Doctrine, for example.

Oh yes there is.



You've denied that we are saved without works in other threads, and that the Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works in this one.

 

Ummm....no in regards to Catholic Doctrine.

 

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness (Numbers 21:6-10), even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Notice what it does not mention. It comes down to belief or not belief.

You are mincing words and confused.



Let's be clear. Works do not merit our salvation. Works are present in those who believe. So in the absence of 'works,' -- as described in this thread as basic Christian living, decency, etc. -- one cannot be 'saved.' See the difference? Yeah, I thought not.



The apple tree analogy was especially fitting. Thanks to whoever posted that.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that the only means of receiving grace was through faith.



And no, 'faith' and 'alone' do not appear together in the Bible.



 

I personally am not familiar with a Christian denomination who says we are saved through our  work.  I do know of some groups who say we must maintain our salvation through works.  Is that what you are referring to?

So works in fact, are required for real belief, according to you. So grace is not a free gift, but a loan?



Romans 4, which I already posted for you more than once, says otherwise:



3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

 

Look up. Romans 4.

 

Same thing essentially. The Bible says "believe on Him"; people say well....if you believe you will do this, and this, and this, or you don't believe. Whether or not works are before or after faith, to claim that they are necessary to be saved is salvation-by-works.

Though I have not read it, I have heard that Mike Horton has a great book dealing with this.  Now, speaking from a reformed perspective, the thought that we can do ANYTHING to gain our salvation apart from Christ is unheard of.  It does not compute.  It goes against the very basics of reformed theology, which must be properly understood if one wants to critique it.  In my reading on this it boils down to easy believism vs not easy believism.  Do you believe someone can go to an alter call, then never even try to change their life, then become a professing atheist and still be saved because at one point they walked down front and read a prayer?

No, I do not believe those are acceptable Christian definitions of Faith.  Kinda ear tickling definitions.

Not really the same thing.  We can't do any works to maintain salvation.  Once the debt is payed it is gone.  It doesn't exist.  How can someone make payments on a nonexistent debt? Was Judas saved? He followed Christ and didn't show a change.

If they trusted Christ and believed you mean. What did Jesus promise us and Nicodemus in John 3? Believe and we WILL be saved. There is no fine print on this contract, because it doesn't depend on us.



The Bible says it in 2 Timothy 2:

 

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him.

12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.




17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own ways and deeds; to Me their way was like the uncleanness of a woman in her customary impurity.

18 Therefore I poured out My fury on them for the blood they had shed on the land, and for their idols with which they had defiled it.

19 So I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed throughout the countries; I judged them according to their ways and their deeds.

20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they have gone out of His land.’

21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.

22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went.

23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations.

31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

32 Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord God, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”

33 ‘Thus says the Lord God: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt.

34 The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by.

35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’

36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

Funny, it's John MacArthur and others who say that we must actively follow Christ to be saved...apparently it isn't, because while Judas did follow Christ, John 6 states that Judas in fact did not believe:

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  


70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

God will not accept anything from man because man is sinfulll.
Mans works are fig leaves (man trying to cover his sin by his works)
and Cain offerings (man offering what he has done)

God had to supply the Sacrifice and that was his Son and His work on the cross, which is the only sacrifice that God will accept.
It is a free gift from God and you do not work for a gift, you just recieve it.
There is nothing man can do within himself to receive salvation or any favor from God.
The thief on the cross would not be saved the way some people here are talking.

Its the story of the Bible.
Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

     


     


     


     


     

I was a slave to those things and more, Because the object of my faith is in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, I have been set free.
No penance required! ( Mans works) Jesus took my punishment that I deserve.

Amen brother. Amen!

All the glory to God.

Repentance is not "turning from sin". The Greek word is metanoeo, which Rome for centuries taught meant "penance", but actually means "a change of mind".



If we could turn from sin (i.e. follow the law) then we wouldn't need Christ's atonement in the first place. Saying that a believer must "turn from sin" in order to be saved effectively makes salvation impossible, even with Christ.  Again, our problem isn't with our performance, it's with our flawed nature (see Romans 3:23, Jeremiah 17:9).

 

You realize that quote is from the Baptist Faith and Message.



Hmm...quite a conundrum.

It was translated in some of the Latin versions as poenitentiam agite.  So what did the evangelicals teach in the 4th century? Oh wait, there weren't any evangelicals in the 4th century. Just catholics. And gnostics. I can't believe it took 15 centuries to correct that fool Jerome.



 

Which just goes to show you don't have a clue about Catholic Doctrine.

Sola Scriptura isn't biblical, either.

all you want, but the word "alone" doesn't appear.

So where does "faith ALONE" come from?

Yeah I know; it's still wrong biblically.


 

Ephesians 2:8-9, and Romans 4:4-8, plus 11:6, and Galatians 5.

 

Grace and the law are mutually exclusive, you can't be under both, and you can't keep the law, so we are saved by grace through faith ALONE, or we are not saved at all.

Let's keep it respectful.  ~ medicmandan

Let me guess. Posted the truth, did you?

Still not seeing "alone" in there.

And then there's that pesky letter from James which, I'm sure, was misunderstood for 1,500 years until Luther popped up and stopped the gates of hell from prevailing against the Church that Christ had found.

After all, Pastor Bob with his online divinity degree says so!

The Bible says so.





Let me walk it out:









 

And BTW:



"For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

Pot, meet Kettle.

No, it doesn't.

In fact, it specifically says otherwise.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only - James 2:24

Unless, of course, James is wrong...

So The Baptist Faith and Message, which states that Scripture, '...has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter' and then in interpreting that simple turth of the Gospel to include '...The sinner begins by turning

LOL that wasn't an insult, but a response to your insults.

 

James isn't wrong, the context you put it in is.



James 2, in your view is contradictory with Romans 4 above. Yet both are true - in different contexts. James is speaking to "brethren", a word he uses 17 times, so he's talking to the already saved; therefore, if works naturally followed faith, then saying that "faith without works is dead" is nonsense to saved brethren!



Unless there is a such thing as "faith without works".



Verse 18 sums it up. James is writing about witness, and service to the Lord, not salvation, which Paul wrote about in Romans.



Verse 26 gives us a clear analogy. In the Greek, he says "Exactly like a body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" .



So is a body without a spirit, still a body? Yes

Is a body without a spirit a false body? No.



So is faith without works still faith? Yes.

Is faith without works a false faith? No.



It's just lifeless and stinks.

 

So I'm wrong in believing in what the Bible says because it disagrees with what the Baptists say, who are wrong anyway because they disagree with what Rome says. So we should just agree with Rome, and stop believing in what the Bible says.



Nope. The Bible is without a doubt the word of God, so I'm good to go sticking to it and ignoring those who tell me I'm a fool for doing so.
 

Here's what I hear James saying: If you have faith, true faith, then you WILL have works. You won't be able to help it. The Holy Spirit will have changed your heart and you won't be able to just sit and watch someone in need and be at peace with it. You will bear good fruit if the Holy Spirit is at work in your life. You will want to tell people the Good News. If you don't have works then it's impossible to show your faith, talk is cheap, live out what you say you believe. If you have no works then you aren't being obedient (the Abraham part) and you might want to reevaluate how you're living and if you're pleasing the God you claim you have faith in.


Here's what I hear Paul saying: Do not rely on your works to save you because you can't work your way into heaven. Salvation is only through Jesus.

Everyone is throwing the word "works" around but it seems they have there own definition of works.
What specific "works" are you doing that justifies you in front of God?

And was the book of Romans written to what is now called the Roman Catholic church?

Amen

Start walking away from the sin in your life, if you cant then your in the same sinking ship with these baptists your talking about and others.
Like James said, lets see some evidence of your faith.

Who can righteously judge another's servant?

Salvation (coming ONLY from God) is in the heart.  Your homosexual above is unrepentant, but how do YOU know that?  Sex, like gambling, can be an addiction.  For all you or I know this practicing homosexual cries out to God every day to be freed from their chains.

Please consider the following;



And if his actions are performed in love?  The serial killer above may pick his victims because they are Christians.  He may have been so hurt, damaged, by this fallen world that he doesn't want to see others suffer.  So he ends them in this life that they move on to be with the Lord.  He's horribly wrong, broken beyond belief, but I don't recall sanity being necessary for salvation.  If God is going to save someone, they are saved.

Jn 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

The serial killer acted out of love.  He was misguided, and the murders he committed were sin, but that doesn't change his motivation even though the killer is quite obviously insane.

Mt 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Jn 13:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

Given the 2 verses above, were I to find out about the homosexual from the first example I would witness to him as though he were unsaved.  But if the conversation progressed to reveal his repentance I would witness to them as a brother  or sister in Christ.



I do not dispute the necessity of works, but the faith to perform those works must come from God and be rooted firmly in the heart.

James 2


But as James makes clear they MUST come from the heart.

Ep 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I used to agree with you, but it's an inherent contradiction then between James 2, and Romans 4, Galatians 5, John 3, etc.; it's saying that works aren't required for salvation, but without works we can't be saved.



To deconflict these verses we have to look at the Greek definition of "faith". In the Greek: pisteúo, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. (also g4100  used in John ihas the same definition)




So the issue is that this interpretation of James 2 takes trust away from Christ, and puts it on the believer for assurance of salvation, effectively putting faith in their own works. This leads to a lot of doubt and confusion among believers, who think they have to run a rat-race to be saved, never knowing if they are saved or trusting Christ at His word.

And if his actions are performed in love? The serial killer above may pick his victims because they are Christians. He may have been so hurt, damaged, by this fallen world that he doesn't want to see others suffer. So he ends them in this life that they move on to be with the Lord. He's horribly wrong, broken beyond belief, but I don't recall sanity being necessary for salvation. If God is going to save someone, they are saved.

Jn 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

The serial killer acted out of love. He was misguided, and the murders he committed were sin, but that doesn't change his motivation even though the killer is quite obviously insane.

Mt 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Jn 13:24 "Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”


You are not using Gods definition of love here.  He would ( and that really is a stretch...even more so than my stretch, but I'll work with it) be loving in the secular world views perception of love.  Motivation doesn't save anyone either.  There are many people in the Bible who were motivated and Jesus said " depart from Me, I never knew you" or at least promised that He would say that.  It doesn't matter what I think.  God saves, not me.  My point is, if Christ is truly your savior, sin will sicken you.  You will want to change.  Sure you will still sin and struggle.  But you will feel repentance when you sin.  If you don't then I will pose the question " what Jesus did you trust?"