Um, the sinner is not saved by his actions, he's saved by Christ's actions. That's the inherent flaw in the serial killer analogy; it is still trying to place trust in one's salvation in one's own performance.

I realize that.  Is there a biblical example of someone placing faith in Jesus and NOT changing?

What exactly are you trying to say?





 

Externally? The Corinthians. Remember the epistles are letters to believers, so anywhere you find an issue in a church it is with a believer, unless told otherwise (as in the case of Judas).





Of course salvation in the Old Testament was the same as the New, by faith. Samson loved his sin yet Hebrews 10 tells us he was saved by faith. Same with Solomon, and David. Same with me despite denying Christ and not "picking up my cross daily" for 20 years.





I think Yankee's illustration with the hand is a good one. Those who have put their trust in the Lord at anytime are saved. Period. If you believe in what the Bible actually states in John 10:28:


 

Either I wasn't clear or you misunderstood what I said. The interpretation of James 2 that I gave takes nothing away from Christ. If you believe in and trust Christ then you will do what he tells you to do. We are not given spiritual gifts for no reason, we are to use them for His glory. We are not to hide the lamp under the bowl, we are to put it on the lamp stand. How are we to use the spiritual gift of teaching if we do not do the work of teaching?  (I use teaching in a loose definition, not meaning we are supposed to be professional teachers). Now, if I do not use my spiritual gift(s) it doesn't mean I'm not saved or I have disqualified my salvation. But, according to the bible I'm not being obedient. The bible tells us that if we really love God we will be obedient (of course we will mess up, we're not perfect).

Basically, James is speaking about being obedient, not attaining salvation, when he talks about works. Those works are to glorify Him and only Him, not buy salvation. That would be putting God in your debt saying "Hey, I did all this for you so you have to let me in, you have no choice now. I don't even have to believe anything about Jesus or if he even existed because I just got myself into heaven".  Instead, our works are to put Jesus on display so that people look to Him and not us.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankin

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:9-11

The evidence of being a Christian is a changed life, when Paul wrote this and as other scriptures they were written to the church, not pagans.
Notice he says, As such "were" some of you. But they were washed in the Blood of the Lamb and Sanctified. And delivered from a lifestyle of sin.
That is the evidence of "Gods works" in man.
Lot of people argue Scripture and their doctrines, nothing wrong with that.
But is or was there a change in there life that God and only God can do? if not who cares what your doctrines are and what you believe .

I beleive that is what James was talking about in James 2:24 but then read James 2: 14-24 especially verse 18

Lot of people using the term works, thats plural meaning more then one. Tell me one work you do that justify's you or can gain you any favor from God.

 

I'm going to make some assumptions here. I say assumptions because I don't recall reading where you have stated any of this.

1. You are a follower of Jesus Christ. 2. You spend a lot of time in the Word. 3. You have the spiritual gift of teaching and discernment. 4. You want Jesus to get all glory and honor. 5. You love Jesus and that's why you spend time in the Word. 6. You have spiritual gifts because you have given your life to Christ and the Holy Spirit dwells within you.

Know how I came to those assumptions?  By your work here in this thread. Are you doing the work in this thread to alleviate any doubt of your salvation, or are you being obedient to the burden God has placed on your heart?

I detest sin, especially my own. Sin is a heavy weight, I can only be thankful that Christ took that weight off my shoulders.

I'll continue to do what I have been doing. Following Christ, repenting when I stumble, spreading the word of all He has done for me, all the while I wait on His return.

That's all I can do.

We all have to make our own way in this world and answer to the Lord when we die.

See...that's the thing, Noone who is reformed ever doubts or questions their salvation.  They wouldn't be reformed if they did.  Now people can say we do all they want, but that contradicts the very definition.  Now some people like mcauthor are sorta reformed and sorta dispensationalist.  I won't speak for that belief.  Actually piper falls in the only sorta reformed  camp too...dont know the others.

Amen.

I think the word "works" and the word "fruits" are being confused here. This lordship salvation video I just watched said something, and so did m-1975, about the works thing being dangerous because believers will begin to doubt because they don't see any growth, or more likely growth at a rate they would like. That would be seeing fruits from their labor or works. We choose to do works or deeds.  Where people get discouraged is when they don't see any fruits, or results, from their works or deeds.  They say "I don't see that I'm making a difference so God must not be with me. Oh my gosh, I may not even be saved!" etc. That's addressed in 1 Corinthians 3:6 where Paul says "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow".

I trust Christ. That's the source of my salvation. Since coming back around after 20 years of backsliding I have noticed that many things fall into place; for example, I will run into an article explaining something to a question I see someone asking later, a situation I'm in,  etc. I'm just following the breadcrumbs. I have found that God has built me to be that guy who asks questions and wonders aloud. When I see someone doctrinally wrong, I'm compelled to say something, that's why I bring up uncomfortable things here. I've really peeved some people off but I just ask God that He use it and correct me if I'm wrong.



BTW I prayed that, with all the false teachers and doctrinal error going around, to show me the truth. Lo an behold, I found that guy in the OP, who gives the clearest, most bare-bones and biblical gospel I have heard from a preacher, so I though people needed it, and they do.



 

That's a no true scotsman argument. We have another thread where a guy is going through just that, and it's heartbreaking. I have run into a lot of Calvinist Atheists who walked away because they couldn't live up to the LS standard of salvation, therefore they thought God just didn't choose them. That is because they were never taught about grace, only law.



The usual excuse is "well I guess they really weren't saved to begin with" which is a pride-filled cop-out. You put your trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and you HAVE eternal life. Problem is many weren't taught that.



Sorry for the rant. It bugs me.

 

Regarding your last paragraph, is it possible that some people do understand the depths of God's grace and that's why they work, that they allow the love of God to overflow from them onto others?  Maybe it's not about performance for them but they are so overwhelmed by God's grace that they want everyone to experience it. We can't judge someone's salvation just like we can't judge whether someone's works are out of love or out of selfish motivation, or out of trying to find favor with God, etc. 1 Corinthians 3:12 tells us that God will test the quality of each man's work. Verse 15 says if the works are burned up then he will suffer loss but he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I'm not contradicting anything you've said this far, I think we're just describing it differently.

This nails James 2:

There's nothing wrong with work or fruits, the issue is the motive. Is someone doing it to earn their way or prove their faith to themselves? If it's a case of proving faith to others, then that's what James 2 is encouraging. I just want people to know that they don't have to prove themselves, because once you believe, it's not in their hands, but His.

 

I'm not so sure James 2 is about proving my faith to others. I see it more as a guideline for Christian living, as is most of the NT. If we are to strive to be Christlike (with the help of the Holy Spirit) then we should do what Jesus did which was love and serve. He washed the disciples feet so there's no job that is beneath us. Jesus didn't live his life on earth just saying he was the Savior, he was out proving it with miracles and good deeds. James is just saying to get off your butt and live out what you claim to believe. His writing style is very blunt, but he was a Nazirite after all.

No.  The other thread was someone saying he tried and never FELT anything.  Which is the garbage taught at the new feel good, share your story churches.  I'm not saying the op in there is one of those.  If you read what I wrote there I said if he was having the feelings he was it was a sign that he WAS regenerate.
Saving grace is nothing about feelings.  Nowhere does it say come to Jesus and have a great life.  It says the opposite.  Follow Jesus and you will suffer on earth.  I said before, you can follow Christ and die the next second with no works and be saved still.  I have also said, and everyone here has, that works are a result of the Saving Grace of Jesus.  Once you are saved you are saved.  That's it.  Everyone has said that.  it is impossible however to be regenerate and not have a change take place.  That change that takes place isn't what saves you, you are already saved...I do remember you saying that you attended a reformed church once but it was dry.  Unless you went longer than just a few times, and it was a PCA, OPC EPC or Reformed Baptist church, you have no room to say that they don't teach or focus on grace.  That is ALL that is talked about.  EVERY sermon.  Old Testement and New.  EVERY one makes reference to the Cross, because that's what the whole bible is pointing to.  I watched some of the videos by Wall and Arnold.  While Wall came across as more intelligent than most, he still has an agenda and steered things to prove his point.  But that's how he gets paid.  Arnold, I will just say, does nothing good for me.  He may have some legitimate points but he also has the Truth that no one else can see....everyone is wrong, but him....Calvinist are a cult? Believing in anything but dispensational pre millinial rapture is a sin?   He is a showman and wrong on many accounts.  If not specifically, then by the pride of assuming that only he is correct.  I also apologize for my rant.  It is something I still struggle with sometimes.  I am not perfect.

What really gets under my skin is when people take non essentials and try to make them a divisive subject in the body of Christ.  Nowhere are these subjects spoken of as essential.  I am not Southn Baptist, but I attend a SBC.  And participate in a Sunday School class there.  And am accepted despite our differences.  Because we share the same core beliefs.  I understand that our opinions may differ on baptism, church structure etc..but we agree on what matters.  Listening to Arnold is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.  Not because I feel that he is convicting me of anything...he's not..I am secure in my faith and beliefs..but that he is trying to divide the body of Christ.

So you are saying that there is nothing that human can do to please God?
If we were not intended for works, we would have no body at all. I think the beatitudes would be a very obvious set of 'works' that are pleasing to God.



 

I will say that what Arnold has done for me is have me reading my Bible more than ARFCOM tonight.  So he does do some good here.  I'm still secure in my beliefs. Is he a KJO guy?

That guy didn't see any change in his heart. He was judging his salvation by the standards that I'm saying are not right.






 

Don't think so but he does prefer it. I think it gets more criticism than it deserves, and I have noticed interpretation rather than translation in the NASB.


 

Calvin didn't develop tulip.  It came about as a result of Arminianism.  I'd spell it different....but then it wouldn't be a cool acronym.

YouTube Arnold post mil.  Or something similar to find his sermon.he says it is a sin.  I don't know how to embed it....sorry...

Thats exactly what I am saying. Anything that is done by man or the flesh ( done in mans strength, abilities, talents etc.) is not anything that God will accept.
Why? because man fell from Grace in the garden and now has a sin nature. God cannot and will not accept anything from man because he cannot accept sin.

Adam tried to cover himself with fig leaves, didnt work. God slew and animal and covered man with the skins. (this is symbolic of the cross which was to come.)

Cains offering was not accepted,Why? because he thought he could pick some produce from the garden that Cain himself tilled and make an offering. (Represents mans works.or religion.)
Able sacrificed a lamb which represented the Sacrifice that Jesus would make on the cross, The Sacrifice that God Himself would provide. That is what God will accept.
This is in Genesis, if you need the exact verses I can provide them.

Not finding it.

 

I'll search again...while searching however I did find of all things...a debate on free will vs election with Walls and his coauthor who were professors at the local Methodist seminary vs 2 professors from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Amen!

An obtuse, narrow, limited study of history and scripture would lead you to that conclusion.

 

but Wall nails it when it comes to TULIP compromising the character of God by saying that He willingly sends some to hell by denying "saving faith".


I have asked before and no one will answer without changing the subject....does God know everything? If no it is not a Christian God we are discussing.  If Yes, then He knew whom would choose Him before the foundation of the earth.  I'm pretty sure we can agree on that..just disagree on why, but that's not important here.  So God knows that joe will reject him and go to Hell.  No changing this or we say that a. Either God did not know.  Or b. God knew, but was wrong, which means that He really didn't know.  I reject both of those and say God did know.  So now God knew joe would reject Him, and there was no way he would Accept Christ, and he created him anyway.  By doing this He is In fact creating someone who it is certain will go to Hell.  For no reason.  That is not a loving God.  If according to the people He wants every single person on earth saved.  Why did he create Joe?  He therefore wants something that is impossible for Him to achieve.  John 6 says it is the will of the Father that all whom He gives to Jesus will come to Him. And Jesus will lift them up on the last day.  If it were His will to have Joe, then Jesus will fail.  That is impossible also.

That's not the central argument Walls (and others) put out as compromising God's character. It is the idea that God willfully chooses some people to save and willfully chooses some to exclude others and send them to hell. Walls nails the problem in that it is founded in a deterministic view on freedom as opposed to a libertarian one.  No one doubts God can force people believe if He wanted to, the central issue is: did He?

 


To think He didn't is to ignore the Bible, and basically making God out to be a liar when His word says He wants "all to come to repentance."






 

Like I said...no one will answer my question.  For your question, it is totally biblical .  Paul addresses it in Romans.  And then foresees people saying " that's not fair" and answers that too.

Yes, the total depravity of man. Thats why a Savior was sent. Otherwise Jesus died for nothing.
Gen 6:5-22
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Who teaches?  The Bible. The Word of God. Written by people who learned from the Lord and would not call themselves Roman Catholic if they were here today.
But you need Jesus for proper understanding. Luke 24: 44-45 verse 45 in particular.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 16: 1-22 But especially verse 13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

But then you must first be "Born Again" John Chap 3 to receive the gift of Holy Spirit.
I've said this in the past I'll say it again. I have been set free and forgiven from from a sinfull lifestyle of alcohol, sexual immorality, depression, anger, to much else to list.
That did not happen from me doing anything. It came from me putting my Faith in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. And when that happens then the Holy Spirit can work in ones life.
The Holy Spirit can only operate when a person puts there  Faith in the Cross.
Rom 8:2

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

By claiming that God forces any belief is to show ignorance of what the reformed position is.  I'm sorry but that is just arguing against something that does not exist.  It makes him look foolish.

It's a false premise (one that Walls addresses here). It assumes that because God gives us the libertarian freedom to choose Him or not, despite His wishes that all do choose Him, that somehow God is compromised. It's a philosophical premises about God rather than Biblical premise about God.  Bottom line is that if the Bible has men choosing and rejecting God (which it does), and it also has God wanting men to choose Him (which it does), then that's the truth; so God obviously doesn't feel compromised, and theoretically, if He did, then it speaks to His humility anyway.
The problem is that for centuries, people have added themselves to the Bible. Calvin and his followers (and Arminius for that matter) is no different , especially since a lot of his philosophy came from Augustine, who got his from Plato and Aristotle.


 






ETA: Saying libertarian free will compromises God is like saying that a parent giving their child a choice between two options compromises the parent.






 

 


 

Yet the entire Old Testament is about God trying to chasten His chosen people into repentance with little success. So somewhere there is a false premise.



 

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . .how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37)


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely ." (Revelation 22:17)


"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32)

Negative ghost rider...  No force there.  Like I said to argue that there is it to argue from ignorance on what I believe.

You have to change your hermeneutics in mat 23:37 to make it address Israel as a whole.  He is addressing the leaders.  Context...

You are actually proving Walls right though in regards to views on what freedom is.

Yet he says "would not", as opposed to "cannot", and it's the same in the Greek.

 

No..I'm banging my head against a wall here..you are arguing against something you don't understand.  They are unwilling because they are following their desires..No one seeks God.  It goes against human nature.  Once God changes someone heart, they have the desire and are then able to seek God, which is now their desire. It is not forced.  It is enabled.  The heart is Wicked.  Unless it is changed.

But let's follow the argument of free will to its logical conclusion.  Have you ever prayed that someone would be saved? If so you are inconsistant.  It is up to that person to make the decision.  God can't give them any nudging, cause that would be showing favoritism.  I mean what if someone did t have anyone praying for them.  Also we would have to say that everyone everywhere has the exact same oportunity to follow Christ.  The Muslim who grows up in a strict Muslim house and country and the child born to Christian parents.  Because if not God has showed favoritism by letting one be born in one circumstance vs the other.  And if we all have the exact same oportunity, what makes one chose and one not? What did you do that was better than the other? Something, because you obviously chose correctly and they didnt.  God didn't do it, it was you deciding to.  Your salvation is  contoled and decided by you.  God just sat back and hoped you would chose what He wanted you to. That leads us to peliagianism, which is a heracy .

Let me also be clear and say for the record that theology does not save someone.  Jesus does that.  There are core beliefs in Christianity, and there is theology. I do not follow Calvin, I follow God.  Jesus is the only perfect man.  Everyone else, yes, even me, makes mistakes. This has desolved into what I try to avoid, creating dissention among Christians.  I wish you well, and mean no disrespect by any of my post.  Ya' ll have fun.  I am using my free will to exit this thread.

 
See that's taking one word then adding a different meaning to it. Either they were unwilling or they were incapable. If the latter is the case then why doesn't Jesus ask the Father to pour out some grace and make them capable? Did He and they were unwilling anyway? Then it still isn't Total Depravity. And that's not pelagianism, which denies original sin, and a either/or argument. We are inherently sinful but we have a choice to believe the Gospel or not. You have to read what's there.






 

I apologize of I got you worked up but this is how the gospel was spread for centuries. Ever read The Octavius?





And sorry for my lack of tact. I tend to use the general "you" incorrectly when talking to specific people.


 

1) None.

2) Yes.

That's two questions.

Justify? None.

Gain favor from God? Countless.

Your second statement takes a hell of a lot of assumption on your part.

The first part is wrong. Scripture tells us to work out our salvation fearfully. Doesn't sound like the get-out-of-jail-free, never-worry-about-it-again stuff too many "Bible" Christians go on about...