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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:19:44 PM EDT
This thread is inspired by bigbore's sigline and Molon's thread on his test of it, found here.
Bigbore's sigline contains a challenge - “That's a nice group from the bench. Now let’s see you hit a grapefruit at 50 yards offhand.” This thread is a challenge to every ARFcommer with a rifle. 10 shots, fired with your rifle, off hand, at 50 yards on the grapefruit target, which can be found here in .pdf format. I think this thread will be a good barometer on who is a shooter and who is not. 
With the size of our membership, this thread should receive several hundred submitted targets at the very minimum. |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:33:31 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm in
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:40:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Is it OK to use a Revolver?
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:41:31 PM EDT
[#3]
What is "off hand " ...Standing up ? I'm in.
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:45:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Standing unsupported. |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:45:57 PM EDT
[#5]
dernit, I am going to be at work for the next couple of weeks...ugh....I already saved the target....
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:48:17 PM EDT
[#6]
I;m going shooting sunday i might have to take the grapefruit challenge. kinda sounds like something you would see on sickone.com
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Posted: 11/2/2007 6:49:49 PM EDT
[#7]
I might get in on this if I can make it out to the range this weekend.
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Posted: 11/2/2007 7:00:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Tag for pic's.
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Posted: 11/2/2007 7:32:53 PM EDT
[#9]
You guys are missing the point of my sig line. My comment isnt about the ability to hit a 6" circle off hand, at the range, by yourself with all the practice shots and prep time using your rifle of choice for the task.
Its about the general ability of basic marksmanship with a defensive weapon, not target shooting, or shooting “groups” so you can pick the best one and post a pic of it on the ‘net. My sigline is a sarcastic, belittling comment about all the posts and pictures of the ridiculous shot groups and bench shooting. If you want to shoot tiny groups from a bench, great but that was never the intention of an AR or any auto-loader. If you cant hit a target in some sort of “fighting” position, you need to take a second look at why you own an AR. If you are going to turn this into a “postal match” do it right, and follow the spirit of my sig line. 1. Make sure that are at least 5 other people present watching. An audience will make things harder. 2. 1 shot at a time per shooter, with the next in line waiting for their shot. Only 1 hit matters, keep track how many it takes to hit the target. keep up the pace - in this vid you can see the pace you want (actually 10" steel at 50yds in vid). I took the idea from shooting local club match - here in the above the last 10 targets are clay pigeons at 50yds, you have 20 shots to hit them - in front of an audience with iron sights only. I've never left a pigeon unbroken in several matches. I know my ability, I dont need to post a picture to prove anything. If need be, I can supply witnesses who also participated  If you are honest with yourself, you'll get better and maybe even learn something. For me, I dumped my vert grip, because I found it was a more natural stance without. |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 7:42:25 PM EDT
[#10]
count me in!
Mike |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 8:09:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Once at SWAT practice me and some other snipers were practicing hitting one inch wood blocks from 100 yard (not too hard with a scoped rifle I know). Well some other guy comes by and makes a smart ass comment about "anyone being able to hit a target with a scope on their gun".
I agreed and was getting ready to walk away and then he says something about "you proably can't hit $#(% with you handgun. Well, I set my rifle down, walk over draw my handgun and squeeze off one round downrange at some of the blocks still there. I knocked one of those little bastards off the target stand and this guys jaw just dropped. I walked away and said something smart ass like "yeah, I can only hit things with a scope". When I got back to my car to load my rifle my buddy was like "holy #$%% dude, I didn't think you were that good with a handgun". I started laughing and told him it was total luck. In fact I think I hit the wood block next to the one I was aiming at (they were about 6 or so inches apart). I couldn't replicate that shot in a million years but the look on that idiots face was priceless. He was like  I guess it's funnier if you were there. |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 8:14:34 PM EDT
[#12]
By the way, you really want to make a shot difficult....see how hard it is to hit a target only 10 yards away while moving at "warrant speed" or "hostage rescue speed". Platform is everything! (by the way, warrant speed is like a medium paced walk and hostage rescue speed is a fast walk.....notice I said WALK......SWAT does not run like in the movies, we walk.) |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 8:24:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Actually it's a "Groucho walk" or "Stealth walk" so just walking doesn't quite cover it. 'Legs like tank treads" |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 9:36:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Bigbore - thanks for your comments. I know not all will be true to the spirit of this thread - hitting a target, in a fighting stance, at speed - but some will. It will also encourage more people to get out of their comfort zones and try to learn how to use their rifles beyond making noise and light. |
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Posted: 11/2/2007 10:48:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Im going to the range in Faucett MO>sp on Tuesday with 3 friends(one is a member here) the other 2 lurk sometimes. I am going to see if they will attemp the challenge, otherwise ill go at it by myself just to see if I can. Ill save the target to see if I can get pics of it. But Ill post my results, wether you choose to believe them or not. Good luck contestents.
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Posted: 11/3/2007 1:12:42 AM EDT
[#16]
If this is still going in 30 months when I get back home then I'm in
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Posted: 11/3/2007 3:04:01 AM EDT
[#17]
How about using 3 targets (or just the one) and using all three positions the Army rifle Q test calls for now.
for the sake of this thread; prone supported (sandbag)=10rds prone unsupported (elbow to ground)=10rds kneeling supported (elbow to knee)=10rds or, kneeling supported=10rds kneeling unsupported (off hand)= 10rds standing=10rds If you have a K-Pot....wear it while shooting
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Posted: 11/3/2007 3:46:59 AM EDT
[#18]
How about more practical, if we want to get into a three position version? Prone unsupported (10 rounds -20 sec) Kneeling unsupported (10 rnds- 20 sec) Standing unupported (10 rnds -20 sec) Or even 15 sec. I think the spirit of Bigbore's original challenge was the shooter is the support, and the timing of the shots should be rapid. I'm not even sure multiple shots are intended at all in the spirit of the original thread. It seemed to me the idea was to hit with the first shot and not to allow the shooter to "fire and correct". So, if the shooters wanted to rotate into and out of the firing positions for each shot, it could also be a good exercise for rapidly assumeing a practical firing position and getting off an effective shot. Something like, no more than 5 seconds to assume position and get off a shot. Then clear the firing position for the next shooter. |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 5:38:29 AM EDT
[#19]
I'm ready for the Grapefruit Challenge!  Sorry guys, I just couldn't help it! LOL |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 6:08:09 AM EDT
[#20]
This challenge is too hard I wont do it.
I mean really, where the hell am I gonna get a grapefruit. 
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Posted: 11/3/2007 7:01:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Have you seen the grapefruits lately?!
There half the size of regular ones! good luck! |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 7:14:22 AM EDT
[#23]
 You haven't lived life until you pull off something you never should be able to do, just to make an asshole look even dumber. |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 7:31:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Since this is the internet web I can freely admit that I have had several moments in my life where I looked like the "cool guy" by "accidentally" doing something I "meant" to do. I guess I am in. I have 50 fresh 69gr OTM handloads waiting for some range time. Maybe I will do it with my duty rifle, HBAR, and Glock 21 just for fun. Suggestion: If you do this when you snap a pic of the target make sure you add some size reference....I.E. a ruler or caliper. |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 7:33:07 AM EDT
[#25]
RustedAce
Now that was Funny.....  Maybe you could use a poppy plant.... personally... I run this drill using a Kiwi.... Grapefruits are for pussies...
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Posted: 11/3/2007 7:51:20 AM EDT
[#26]
I'm in, using a 22 kit at 50 yards.
I'll print 10 targets and individually fire one round at each. Walk down range and check them out. I will repeat another ten rounds at every target to see if 1) I can hit the ones I hit again, and 2) hit the ones I miss again and hopefully avoid 3) missing targets I initially hit. I think shifting targets and adjusting sight picture is more in the spirit of big bores comment than simply getting a good sight picture on one target and holding it there for ten shots. I will post pics and document my set up, range and method, plus plain jane gun pron. I'll head out back in about an hour or so once I finish this damned client letter.  Edit: If you really twist my arm, or say using a 22 bolt is "cheating" I'll break out some wolf ammo to use So is using a 22 kit acceptable? |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 10:08:08 AM EDT
[#27]
This reminds me of hunting rabbits. Stalk, see one dart, try to shoot it. They run so fast that you don't have time to get in a comfy firing position. Your lucky if you can get in a shaky kneeling.
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Posted: 11/3/2007 11:15:16 AM EDT
[#28]
BTDT with a Remington Bolt action .22 no time for kneeling, just hit 'em on the fly.
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Posted: 11/3/2007 11:20:02 AM EDT
[#29]
+1 Standing offhand 25 to 100 yards. A running jack rabbit going in and out of brush in the Dez.
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Posted: 11/3/2007 1:28:25 PM EDT
[#30]
my entry thread
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=348507 |
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Posted: 11/3/2007 9:49:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Nice idea, I'll see if I can get to the range next weekend. I've got some reloads that I need to test anyway.
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Posted: 11/4/2007 6:18:14 AM EDT
[#32]
I havent ever fired my AR from a bench... I kinda just laugh when I get asked if I want one of those sandbag things to rest on (bench rest?).
I unloaded one magazine yesterday from a sitting position, all my other shots have been standing :D. Doesnt matter - I still suck pretty bad as far as accuracy goes, but I still have fun :). |
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Posted: 11/4/2007 4:45:50 PM EDT
[#33]
1st Sunday of the month is our gathering so I steped aside and engaged a plate at 100yds. Twice the size of a graprefruit, but twice the distance. You have to listen for the hits over the shots from the next bay, but the first shot hit.
shot video standing, off hand, unsupported, in the spirit of my sig line.  The "funny" comment at the end is in referrence to the "fun switch". |
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Posted: 11/4/2007 4:57:00 PM EDT
[#34]
I tried it out today. Using M855, I basically embarressed myself. 5/10 shots in the fruit, the other 5 were just below it. I was standing, offhand, unsupported of course. Weapon was a 10.5" LMT with a Aimpoint M4. If I remembered to bring some good ammo, like the stuff the sight is zero'd for, I probably would have done a little better.
To make myself feel better, I grabbed some mk262 and my Recce, hit the dirt and put rounds on paper at 350 yards.
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Posted: 11/4/2007 9:08:02 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 11/5/2007 6:51:08 AM EDT
[#36]
While you are correct, that IS the official "Offhand" stance, I don't think that's the kind of "offhand" Big Bore had in mind when he made the comment about shooting a grapefruit.
He meant to use a FIGHTING stance, not a target stance. Try this:  Or this: 
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Posted: 11/5/2007 6:59:12 AM EDT
[#37]
why did your thread get locked?? |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 7:14:53 AM EDT
[#38]
We use the bench for sighting-in. After that, we might use it periodically to confirm sighting or to re-sight when changing ammo, for instance. When we know the sights are properly set for the trajectory we have decided to use, it makes the possibility of hitting the target 'offhand' a little more likely. I'm going to take the 'grapefruit challenge' soon. I'll be using my Colt 6721 and FNM 92-4 SS 109. |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 8:28:51 AM EDT
[#39]
My club range is closed until next weekend for construction. I will have to wait until Saturday to get out and shoot this.
I need to get some more ammo for my AK and try it with that as well.
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Posted: 11/5/2007 8:51:44 AM EDT
[#40]
I printed out the grapefruit and it's 4 13/16" diameter
I'll give it a try this weekend. I'm usually throwing objects into the plinking pit and firing in this stance but this will be more quantitative and informative. I'll even try it weak side.......... Thanks, John |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 8:56:47 AM EDT
[#41]
Man, jackrabbit hunting is FUN! I used to hunt them down south (McAllen, TX) with an air-gun through the orange groves. 0-55 yards was my envelope of enguagement. Learned a few things. 1. Headshots don't work, pellets don't penetrate the skull, even a .22 cal field-tip @ 600fps. 2. Heart/lung is THE shot. 3. jackrabbits will run on average about 25-150 feet and then stop to re-assess the threat. They will do this 1-3 times before they TRULY jet and run a couple hundred yards. 4. Shot placement counts more than anything, they are not as tough as some people make them out to be, and if you hit one and he runs, chances are he will stop to re-assess. 5. This was done with an airgun, so yes, with a .22/.223 the noise involved may produce different behavioral patterns to emerge. 6. I am going to shoot some grapefruit on wednessday. Yes I will try to get a video clip (sorry it will be from my cell phone). The added challenge is that I have 15 seconds of video time. So: Distance pre-measured at 50 yards. Cell-phone set by grapefruit, run 50 yards, back to shooting area while carrying the rifle, insert the mag, chamber 1 round, fire. Results of hit/miss recorded on phone. |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 10:26:29 AM EDT
[#42]
I tried this over the weekend.
Caveats: 1 I used a de-Clintonized MAK 90 with iron sites and old Barnul's ammo I bought ages ago. (didn't have any AR Mags loaded and ready that day) 2. I used a real grapfruit 3. We were having crazy weather (remains of Tropical storm Noel) so lots of wind and drivnig rain. (I figure this was good as it made me shoot outside my comfort zone) I walked up took aim and shot, no pause or anything. Took me 6 shots before I got a direct hit at 50 yards. This is a pretty hard drill. I think I'll try again with my AR and some guat and see what happens. Now you may all rank on me for your reason of choice  Thurman |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 12:19:13 PM EDT
[#43]
[quote
Quoted: my entry thread ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=348507 why did your thread get locked?? ] says "dupe" on the thread. I'm going to have to try this one out. |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 2:03:43 PM EDT
[#44]
I got a GD thread about it as well. I'm suspecting the tech forums have far more dupe nazi's anyway...  ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=635999 I didn't use a proper entry style stance. I did the bladed stance to balance the rifle, afterall the front sight post covers nearly all of the damn target - that was the hardest part. That and your zero is going to matter. With a IBZ you are probably going to need to figure how off your sight is at 50m. I recently switched to the RIBZ which has a setting for POA=POI at 50m. If your scroll down on my GD thread I also have the death of an apple on there - now that was a hard shot. |
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Posted: 11/5/2007 2:08:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Tried this using my normal plinking ammo, Wolf 62 gr hollow point. Fired ten shots at 50 yards from standing position using Bushmaster AR/AK (16in. barrel with AK brake).
Could only find 8 of ten shots on target. Repeated with my Black Hills red box 52 gr. HPBT. Fired only 5 shots cuz I don't want to waste it!  I also outlined the grapefruit with black marker and darkened the center so I could see it better,(little cheat).  
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Posted: 11/6/2007 5:28:49 PM EDT
[#46]
you shot your ruler! :p
I am going to try and go tomorrow during the day and shoot some grapefruit printouts :D. Ill either have wolf military classic soft points or silver bear hollow points. I have a mix of different crap in my magazines right now. I also have no idea how good my "zero" is on my rifle, but usually my first shot hits dead center, then my others slowly walk up and to the right >.< I think I am anticipating recoil...and have been trying to just focus on the trigger squeeze. |
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Posted: 11/6/2007 7:48:35 PM EDT
[#47]
I remember the first time I shot a .50BMG someone put a Al Gore for president sign out as a target. I was looking down range and at about 200 yards, someone said "it would be awesome if you could hit the wooden post holding the sign up", that was about an inch wide. I just wanted to shoot the damn thing, so not knowing that the guy had a VERY light trigger on his rifle, I moved my finger to the trigger right as I was making my last adjustment higher to simply hit the meat of the sign, and I squeezed just hard enough to fire the rifle. Smacked the peice of wood dead center, chopped down the sign, and the guy who made the comment just about shat. He wasn't being an ass, but the look on his face was still priceless. Rules I learned that day: 1-.50's kick pretty damn hard. 2- Keep your finger off the damned trigger, even if you are within a few inches of your desired shot placement, especially with a rifle you're unfamiliar with. |
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Posted: 11/7/2007 1:40:09 AM EDT
[#48]
.224" bullets usually make .224" holes. |
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Posted: 11/7/2007 4:26:46 AM EDT
[#49]
Well I need practice.
 (and a new trigger on the colt) Ten shots off hand 50 yards, in less than 15 seconds at grapfruit target, no practice shots.Mini-14 181 open sights wolf ammo 30% hits Colt sp1 aimpoint wolf 40% hits My son 12 yo Ruger 10/22 BSA red dot CCi 30% hits It's sad that I'm only marginally better with my high dollar AR than my $250 Mini. |
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Posted: 11/7/2007 9:56:27 AM EDT
[#50]
Ok, rip on me all you want. :)
I was going to post a video, but hell, I only hit it twice out of 20 rds. I don't need to post a video to back a statement that I can't shoot worth a crap! LMAO. I will practice up on this and post a video if I ever get something to brag about. I guess the good thing is, no one needs to worry about me ripping on them about their shooting! |
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