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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:18:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Cool, but one more thing that can go wrong.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:29:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:32:05 PM EDT
[#3]
That would be cool for your long range/precision rifle.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:32:46 PM EDT
[#4]
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:33:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:35:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Still have to have the mechanical parts to make it function as such, right? Also, where's the field test? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:39:44 PM EDT
[#7]
I love the non matching, non recessed wood screws used in the grip. Philips on the right, straight on the left.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:42:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Haven't high end target pistols been using this tech for awhile now?
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:43:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. If it's in a semi-auto. IIRC, there are some bolt actions and single shot guns that have electronic triggers.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:44:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace reprogram an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace reprogram an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. I fixed it for you. 
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:47:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Hell for $200 I'd buy one for a bench gun.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:48:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. It's already been decided as not legal. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:49:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. Cant imagine that they would rule against it as long as it doesnt break this part of NFA... ....any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) ETA Nevermind? anyone can throw me a copy of the ruling... |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:51:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Needs more ramping mode
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:54:51 PM EDT
[#15]
"Semi-auto chip for civilians" could be reprogrammed. Does the NFA cover digital firearms?
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:55:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Will it come with an NPPL and PSP mode?
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:56:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will it come with an NPPL and PSP mode? naw, millenium. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:59:19 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't see why it would be illegal, as long as it remained semi/single shot only. I don't see any distinction between pulling a trigger v. commanding a computer to pull the trigger for you... Seems like it would be awesome for bench shooting.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:00:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. This has been around the circuit in the paintball community. It's the board out of an old Spyder SE (one of the cheapest guns on the market - they didn't even use anything decent. There's maybe $50 worth of parts there). It's illegal, and there is no way to make it "semi-only" for "civillian use." ATF has ruled that any electronic fire control system on a self-loading firearm is a machinegun, because all it takes is a board swap or a reflash to make it full auto. The only legal electronic triggers on firearms are on single-shot competition guns (e.g. Morini 84E). |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:00:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't see why it would be illegal, as long as it remained semi/single shot only. I don't see any distinction between pulling a trigger v. commanding a computer to pull the trigger for you... Seems like it would be awesome for bench shooting. It would be "hacked" in days. People would find a way to put paintball trigger boards on it, giving it the full function the guy in the video shows. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:18:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be "hacked" in days. People would find a way to put paintball trigger boards on it, giving it the full function the guy in the video shows. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't see why it would be illegal, as long as it remained semi/single shot only. I don't see any distinction between pulling a trigger v. commanding a computer to pull the trigger for you... Seems like it would be awesome for bench shooting. It would be "hacked" in days. People would find a way to put paintball trigger boards on it, giving it the full function the guy in the video shows. No doubt, and that would obviously be manufacturing a MG.. But I still don't think an electronic semi-only fire control would be a violation in itself. That would be approaching the same (flawed) logic that AR's are MG's because you could add a DIAS/FA FCG. I'm sure the ATF probably has a different opinion than me though. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:25:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Based on the rate of fire adjustment and ability to do many different bursts, it looks like it does full-auto electronically without a full-auto sear. A simple chip hack could turn the semi version into full-auto??
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:26:53 PM EDT
[#23]
There are already etriggers in development for semi-autos, and have been around for some time.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Electronic-Arms/175524479145685 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/06/etrigger-ruger-1022/ |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:39:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This has been around the circuit in the paintball community.
It's the board out of an old Spyder SE (one of the cheapest guns on the market - they didn't even use anything decent. There's maybe $50 worth of parts there). It's illegal, and there is no way to make it "semi-only" for "civillian use." ATF has ruled that any electronic fire control system on a self-loading firearm is a machinegun, because all it takes is a board swap or a reflash to make it full auto. The only legal electronic triggers on firearms are on single-shot competition guns (e.g. Morini 84E). Quote HistoryQuoted: This has been around the circuit in the paintball community.
It's the board out of an old Spyder SE (one of the cheapest guns on the market - they didn't even use anything decent. There's maybe $50 worth of parts there). It's illegal, and there is no way to make it "semi-only" for "civillian use." ATF has ruled that any electronic fire control system on a self-loading firearm is a machinegun, because all it takes is a board swap or a reflash to make it full auto. The only legal electronic triggers on firearms are on single-shot competition guns (e.g. Morini 84E). So you can cite an actual link as to why this gun is illegal: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_43/433665_Back_in_black__billet_cnc__22lr_bullpup.html 
Quoted:
Yeah, electronic trigger. You can have one to six stages, adjustable travel, and you can adjust while the rifle is assembled, at home or at the range. This one is set at 1/3rd oz and 0.1mm travel. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:46:49 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Based on the rate of fire adjustment and ability to do many different bursts, it looks like it does full-auto electronically without a full-auto sear. A simple chip hack could turn the semi version into full-auto?? Yep. Back in my paintball days, some players out there had specially programmed/aftermarket boards that could increase dwell (giving higher velocity) or ramp to a higher fire rate, or both when in a special "cheater" mode....then be turned off with a sequence of button/trigger presses to get it by the refs. I got called in a tournament in 2007 for unwittingly leaving my marker on the ramping mode and shot something like 21 bps over a pact timer (limit was 13.3 iirc). This would be pretty cool on a real firearm. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:55:52 PM EDT
[#26]
and no civi's going to take it apart and solder a chip into that to make it full auto?
not trying to alert the atf but just pointing out the ridiculousness of the the NFA laws |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:56:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Small timing chips (555) are cheap and easily adjustable with a few small components to pulse from 1/sec to hundreds/sec.
Hence making it way to easy to modify. Excellent concept however. I don't see this making it to the civilian market but I'd sure like to try one on for size. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:00:21 PM EDT
[#28]
I understand the advantages to be had in military applications being able to set the ROF, but for civilians with semi-auto only I don't really get it.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:19:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love the non matching, non recessed wood screws used in the grip. Philips on the right, straight on the left. That's what I was gonna say. Dude goes to a trade show with that POS??? You've put that work into the device and you can't spend half an hour and 8 bucks to get some decent screws installed? Holy shit. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:23:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I was gonna say. Dude goes to a trade show with that POS??? You've put that work into the device and you can't spend half an hour and 8 bucks to get some decent screws installed? Holy shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love the non matching, non recessed wood screws used in the grip. Philips on the right, straight on the left. That's what I was gonna say. Dude goes to a trade show with that POS??? You've put that work into the device and you can't spend half an hour and 8 bucks to get some decent screws installed? Holy shit. Magpul showed up at SHOT with a 3D printed gun that broke on the way there and they glued it together... |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:31:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Unless the PROM is covered in a conformal coating that's 1/4 inch or more thick and can't be removed without destroying the circuit board and it is not a reprogrammable type of chip to begin with. Then there should be no chance that the gun could be converted without completely replacing the electronics. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:32:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fixed it for you.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace reprogram an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. I fixed it for you.
Smart idiot would have 2. Put the original in the gun when in the safe or at a public range. Swap when on private of SHTF. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:38:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand the advantages to be had in military applications being able to set the ROF, but for civilians with semi-auto only I don't really get it. Very, very clean benchrest trigger. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:46:12 PM EDT
[#34]
if these aren't legal, why are smart guns legal?
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:47:57 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: if these aren't legal, why are smart guns legal? No one in this thread has yet provided a citeable source that says they're not legal. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 5:50:31 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one in this thread has yet provided a citeable source that says they're not legal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: if these aren't legal, why are smart guns legal? No one in this thread has yet provided a citeable source that says they're not legal. yup, i was hoping to get to the root of that ETA a FCG like this could be manufactured without any digital electronics. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:00:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yup, i was hoping to get to the root of that ETA a FCG like this could be manufactured without any digital electronics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: if these aren't legal, why are smart guns legal? No one in this thread has yet provided a citeable source that says they're not legal. yup, i was hoping to get to the root of that ETA a FCG like this could be manufactured without any digital electronics. The only way to get to the bottom of it is to write a letter. Apparently there's no rulings on it, or someone would've cited it already. I imagine our good billet bullpup designer has already written a letter, and gotten a positive response, or they wouldn't have sunk so much time & money into that fancy 10/22 design. Then again, you have EPArmory as the poster child of when you don't get a letter first. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:11:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless the PROM is covered in a conformal coating that's 1/4 inch or more thick and can't be removed without destroying the circuit board and it is not a reprogrammable type of chip to begin with. Then there should be no chance that the gun could be converted without completely replacing the electronics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I doubt ATF would allow it to get to market. Too easy to replace an EEPROM. They'll call it a machine gun. Unless the PROM is covered in a conformal coating that's 1/4 inch or more thick and can't be removed without destroying the circuit board and it is not a reprogrammable type of chip to begin with. Then there should be no chance that the gun could be converted without completely replacing the electronics. I doubt it would take long for someone to figure out how to make a replacement EEPROM. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:45:07 PM EDT
[#39]
I haz prom burner, will travel.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 10:03:49 PM EDT
[#40]
You don't actually need an electronic trigger to have an electrical trigger. No transistors are needed.
The real money will be in electrical unlocking, and then we get rid of this gas tube DI/piston debate. Imagine a bolt that unlocks milliseconds after the primer is hit, and if there's an overpressure event, doesn't unlock @ all. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:55:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Meh... old tech    Basically its an electronic paintball gun trigger on an actual gun
 |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 1:51:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool, but one more thing that can go wrong. this when it comes down to a service rifle, mechanical is the way to go. it hardly ever fails in comparison to electronics. electronics are faster, lighter and better. sure. but they will never be as reliable as hardware |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 2:05:24 AM EDT
[#43]
Maybe it could store single trigger pulls and delay them until to are ready for a mag dump?
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Posted: 10/23/2014 2:29:17 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. I thought any electrical device that operated a firearm was a no-no. false. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 2:30:43 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This has been around the circuit in the paintball community. It's the board out of an old Spyder SE (one of the cheapest guns on the market - they didn't even use anything decent. There's maybe $50 worth of parts there). It's illegal, and there is no way to make it "semi-only" for "civillian use." ATF has ruled that any electronic fire control system on a self-loading firearm is a machinegun, because all it takes is a board swap or a reflash to make it full auto. The only legal electronic triggers on firearms are on single-shot competition guns (e.g. Morini 84E). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like they took electric paintball marker electronics and fitted them into an ar lower, the ATF will Looove this. This has been around the circuit in the paintball community. It's the board out of an old Spyder SE (one of the cheapest guns on the market - they didn't even use anything decent. There's maybe $50 worth of parts there). It's illegal, and there is no way to make it "semi-only" for "civillian use." ATF has ruled that any electronic fire control system on a self-loading firearm is a machinegun, because all it takes is a board swap or a reflash to make it full auto. The only legal electronic triggers on firearms are on single-shot competition guns (e.g. Morini 84E). And false. Cite this imaginary ruling please. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 3:29:46 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't actually need an electronic trigger to have an electrical trigger. No transistors are needed. The real money will be in electrical unlocking, and then we get rid of this gas tube DI/piston debate. Imagine a bolt that unlocks milliseconds after the primer is hit, and if there's an overpressure event, doesn't unlock @ all. Huh? Carbine length AR already unlocks too soon; why would you want to unlock sooner? The brass needs time to contract. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 3:50:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Neat, but a few things came immediately to mind:
- No "break point" huh? - Accuracy is exponentially increased? - 1000 rounds per minute in full auto mode? Wow, I had no idea that the fire control group dictated the cyclic rate in an M16. - It has a mechanical backup due to worries about ECM and/or EMP? - It's the "worlds greatest trigger" based on a single prototype? The concept is cool and I wish him well, but I won't be swapping out my Geissele SSAs for a battery operated Rube Goldberg FCG anytime soon 
</Luddite> |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:47:52 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neat, but a few things came immediately to mind: - No "break point" huh? - Accuracy is exponentially increased? - 1000 rounds per minute in full auto mode? Wow, I had no idea that the fire control group dictated the cyclic rate in an M16. - It has a mechanical backup due to worries about ECM and/or EMP? - It's the "worlds greatest trigger" based on a single prototype? The concept is cool and I wish him well, but I won't be swapping out my Geissele SSAs for a battery operated Rube Goldberg FCG anytime soon
</Luddite> Just to clarify on the rate of fire, it's simply a dwell setting that would delay the release of the hammer for the next shot. It doesn't change the mechanical cyclic rate like changing out buffers/springs/etc. My Airgun Designs X-Mag has a similar mechanical backup mechanism. The mechanical backup is more for if the batteries die rather than ECM or EMP. 
The real problem with this type of trigger is it will be very difficult for it not to exhibit trigger bounce, effectively producing full-auto. 
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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:50:35 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to clarify on the rate of fire, it's simply a dwell setting that would delay the release of the hammer for the next shot. It doesn't change the mechanical cyclic rate like changing out buffers/springs/etc. My Airgun Designs X-Mag has a similar mechanical backup mechanism. The mechanical backup is more for if the batteries die rather than ECM or EMP. The real problem with this type of trigger is it will be very difficult for it not to exhibit trigger bounce, effectively producing full-auto. Quote HistoryQuoted: SNIP Just to clarify on the rate of fire, it's simply a dwell setting that would delay the release of the hammer for the next shot. It doesn't change the mechanical cyclic rate like changing out buffers/springs/etc. My Airgun Designs X-Mag has a similar mechanical backup mechanism. The mechanical backup is more for if the batteries die rather than ECM or EMP. The real problem with this type of trigger is it will be very difficult for it not to exhibit trigger bounce, effectively producing full-auto.  |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 8:59:07 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You act like that is a problem
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SNIP
Just to clarify on the rate of fire, it's simply a dwell setting that would delay the release of the hammer for the next shot. It doesn't change the mechanical cyclic rate like changing out buffers/springs/etc. My Airgun Designs X-Mag has a similar mechanical backup mechanism. The mechanical backup is more for if the batteries die rather than ECM or EMP.
The real problem with this type of trigger is it will be very difficult for it not to exhibit trigger bounce, effectively producing full-auto.
bumpfire trigger. |
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