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Posted: 9/29/2022 1:38:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: skip dual lok, go with taper mount and the explorr 30. I shoot my explorr 224 on my MG. I think durability is an over rated characteristic for most people, and they end up with an unnecessarily heavy silencer. Never in my life have I desired to mag dump 6 mags back to back to warrant an 18 0z can. We do the mag dump until it breaks test as a proxy for the real test. Can it match the sustainable rate of fire of the host gun. Just because I dont beat all my guns to shit doesn't mean I dont want them to be capable of it. Just like my car I rarely if ever drive wide open throttle , but I want it capable of some decent acceleration. Where that weight vs durability balance is for YOU and YOUR rifle I dont know but my goal is capable of the most extensive firing my rifle might ever face no matter how unlikely. We are already in the realm of unlikely I will even use a rifle outside a gun range for fun. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 1:59:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We do the mag dump until it breaks test as a proxy for the real test. Can it match the sustainable rate of fire of the host gun. Just because I dont beat all my guns to shit doesn't mean I dont want them to be capable of it. Just like my car I rarely if ever drive wide open throttle , but I want it capable of some decent acceleration. Where that weight vs durability balance is for YOU and YOUR rifle I dont know but my goal is capable of the most extensive firing my rifle might ever face no matter how unlikely. We are already in the realm of unlikely I will even use a rifle outside a gun range for fun. Another way to look at this is that if you ever have to use a suppressed gun seriously 1) are you likely to have a protracted run and gun engagement without a team/support/back up and 2) lacking that, how long do you think a solo engagement will last across a span of adversaries? I think the brick-shit-house-can is an artifact of the NFA rarifying what should be a common and cheap muffler and the over emphasis on FPS/CQB run and gun scenario versus the more likely break contact as a win for common lone serfs in first victim responder land. It’s not uncommon for long term suppressor users to start heavy, go light over time, and fish out the beasts for stupid fun on social range days. Plenty of folks paid to carry all gunned up go for short, light, and loud. Again, if not for the archaic post-prohibition era muffler tax most aficionados would have both extremes covered or a quiver of dedicated cans/hosts. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 2:01:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd go with the Griffin can just because of the weight. The DL7 is 5 ounces lighter than the Sandman S, that's a dramatic difference. SS also has a free tax stamp on the DL7 until the end of the month. AND that 5oz lighter does not include the 8oz heavier Keymo mount does it? |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 2:11:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lighter can won't ever be more durable.  Quote HistoryQuoted: A lighter can won't ever be more durable. Quoted: A lighter can won't ever be more durable. "Heavy is GOOD, Heavy is Reliable, If it doesn't work, you can always Hit Him with It" UH OH - it is ON Now LOL Seriously though There are instances where a more well engineered and lighter suppressor would be more durable Looking forward to 3D printed Titanium Cores with Ceramic coated interiors, inside a 3 D printed, serialized Titanium sleeve |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AND that 5oz lighter does not include the 8oz heavier Keymo mount does it? The 5oz difference was between both of the cans (since both have built in attachment methods). The weight difference would increase a bit more once you took into account the muzzle devices (the GA minimalist brake is a lot lighter than any Keymo device). |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 2:26:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another way to look at this is that if you ever have to use a suppressed gun seriously 1) are you likely to have a protracted run and gun engagement without a team/support/back up and 2) lacking that, how long do you think a solo engagement will last across a span of adversaries? I think the brick-shit-house-can is an artifact of the NFA rarifying what should be a common and cheap muffler and the over emphasis on FPS/CQB run and gun scenario versus the more likely break contact as a win for common lone serfs in first victim responder land. It’s not uncommon for long term suppressor users to start heavy, go light over time, and fish out the beasts for stupid fun on social range days. Plenty of folks paid to carry all gunned up go for short, light, and loud. Again, if not for the archaic post-prohibition era muffler tax most aficionados would have both extremes covered or a quiver of dedicated cans/hosts. No disagreement and I do think there is an over fantasy of cool guy CQB but as you point out break contact is more likely scenario once we start talking more than a few rounds out of my rifle in defense sitting here in USA. If we look at the peal as a model for that however it is a shit ton of ammo pretty quickly. Again, super unlikely. Additional note. I'm not solo.... I hope. Still though we are getting to red dawn shit by the time we start talking about me working with my team laying down lead. Not impossible but extreme edge of unlikely. Going back on direct topic, is the sandman S overbuilt for 556, yeah I think so, for heavy schedule 30 cal though I think its great. I have their sierra 5 on order for 556 needs that cuts some weight and length and still has tank construction. I also like that if i slam it on a hard whatever moving around I'm confident it won't get a big dent. If cans cost what they should and I could just get a 6 pack at Walmart for $100 like it should be, yeah I'd probably go lighter you aint wrong. Also though I saw a m60 running the sandman rupture after a couple hundred rounds. I'm sure if it ruptured at that point a lower firing schedule was damaging it. What that exactly is I'm not sure. I do shoot a lot though and I like knowing I can probably count on it taking whatever I throw at it over the long run. |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 2:28:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Heavy is GOOD, Heavy is Reliable, If it doesn't work, you can always Hit Him with It" UH OH - it is ON Now LOL Seriously though There are instances where a more well engineered and lighter suppressor would be more durable Looking forward to 3D printed Titanium Cores with Ceramic coated interiors, inside a 3 D printed, serialized Titanium sleeve Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A lighter can won't ever be more durable. Quoted: A lighter can won't ever be more durable. "Heavy is GOOD, Heavy is Reliable, If it doesn't work, you can always Hit Him with It" UH OH - it is ON Now LOL Seriously though There are instances where a more well engineered and lighter suppressor would be more durable Looking forward to 3D printed Titanium Cores with Ceramic coated interiors, inside a 3 D printed, serialized Titanium sleeve Titanium doesnt always handle to changes as desired but I'm not a matelurgist |
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Posted: 9/29/2022 6:43:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Both are great suppressors, currently, the Griffin has a free tax stamp promo, so that's a nice bonus. The Sandman-S is a perennial favorite, it is always highly reviewed, and is known for its durability. The good news is both are good suppressors so you can't really go wrong. - Chase
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Posted: 9/30/2022 6:29:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would be interested to see the Explorr torture test While we don't have an EXPLORR torture test, we do have that DUAL-LOK 5 torture test. With damn near the same laser welded baffle stack in that can. While the DUAL-LOK has the 2 locking mechanisms associated with the attachment system, the taper at the front does a majority of the heavy lifting. The 2nd locking mechanism ensures that that can isn't coming off that muzzle device. If the muzzle device isn't torqued down appropriately, that's where you're going to see system failure. And due to the material expanding as the can heats up, that's why a lot of folks will put anti-seize on the taper mount to suppressor threading to aid in detachment. Long story short. While we could do a torture test with a newer EXPLORR .224 that's laser welded just like the DUAL-LOK 5, it's not necessarily needed as the DUAL-LOK 5 is damn near an EXPLORR .224 with a different mounting system (with similar features of the taper mount) and different end cap geometry (DUAL-LOK 5 was intended for increased flash reduction). But who knows, maybe we'll do an EXPLORR torture test in the future. We have a solid media team ready to show customers exactly what our products can do. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 7:07:02 PM EDT
[#10]
In this thread we learned that OP will get a great can regardless of which one he picks. Bonus Dead Air and Griffin Armament aren’t friends content.
Dead Air cans always sound great (well maybe not the Sandman K, but sounding great isn’t the point of that can). I suppress all the things, but the majority of complements I get are for my Dead Air Wolfman on tuned delayed blowback 9mm PCCs and the Dead Air Wolverine (very similar sounding to a Sandman S) on a tuned Draco pistol. Griffin Armament’s latest generation of cans is very balanced for ear/muzzle performance. They sound good and have fairly low back pressure for a traditional baffled can. Maybe slightly sharper tone than my Dead Air cans, but they also weigh a lot less and meter extremely well. For a first can the dual lock suppressors are really really good quality and the free tax stamp is hard to ignore. I think they match Surefire for balanced performance, and most people I personally know would jump on a SOCOM RC2 for the dual lock price + free tax stamp. Personally I would jump on the GA can while there is a free tax stamp available, but there’s really not a wrong choice unless OP is looking for the lightest or shortest can. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 9:30:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We do the mag dump until it breaks test as a proxy for the real test. Can it match the sustainable rate of fire of the host gun. Just because I dont beat all my guns to shit doesn't mean I dont want them to be capable of it. Just like my car I rarely if ever drive wide open throttle , but I want it capable of some decent acceleration. Where that weight vs durability balance is for YOU and YOUR rifle I dont know but my goal is capable of the most extensive firing my rifle might ever face no matter how unlikely. We are already in the realm of unlikely I will even use a rifle outside a gun range for fun. Your going to carry extra weight on that philosophy. The other problem with this mentality, is that carbon steel gets softer and weaker over cycles to temperature. So what your rifle can do today, and what your rifle can do 15 cycles from now, are two different things. When you heat chrome moly steel you temper it back, and eventually it has less than half the durability it once had. The solution, is not to run a rifle unrealistically hard. The other reality is the human mind and its ability to have fantastical doubt and fear is greater than realities ability to provide that fantastical for instance. So you're getting ready for something that will never happen. I just saw weapon outfitters post a video of an officer responding to a active shooter, starbucks in hand. He put the Starbucks on the dash, got his patrol rifle out of the trunk, aimed over the rear of the SUV using it for support, fired ONE ROUND, at 185 yds, struck and killed the active shooter that had his other officers ducking and weaving and returning fire for whatever length of time preceded his arrival. That's how you get yourself through a dangerous event. You can be the calm in the storm, and the trained guy who can put one round on the target. He probably had 3-5 mags. He only needed one round to save the day. We put 364 rounds through the can in ~11 minutes on an 11.5" barrel. It's not like its a weak can. |
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Posted: 9/30/2022 11:07:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your going to carry extra weight on that philosophy. The other problem with this mentality, is that carbon steel gets softer and weaker over cycles to temperature. So what your rifle can do today, and what your rifle can do 15 cycles from now, are two different things. When you heat chrome moly steel you temper it back, and eventually it has less than half the durability it once had. The solution, is not to run a rifle unrealistically hard. The other reality is the human mind and its ability to have fantastical doubt and fear is greater than realities ability to provide that fantastical for instance. So you're getting ready for something that will never happen. I just saw weapon outfitters post a video of an officer responding to a active shooter, starbucks in hand. He put the Starbucks on the dash, got his patrol rifle out of the trunk, aimed over the rear of the SUV using it for support, fired ONE ROUND, at 185 yds, struck and killed the active shooter that had his other officers ducking and weaving and returning fire for whatever length of time preceded his arrival. That's how you get yourself through a dangerous event. You can be the calm in the storm, and the trained guy who can put one round on the target. He probably had 3-5 mags. He only needed one round to save the day. We put 364 rounds through the can in ~11 minutes on an 11.5" barrel. It's not like its a weak can. That officer has a fan club in GD. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:03:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bonus Dead Air and Griffin Armament aren’t friends content. Given that they only have one can each that compete directly (and not even flagship cans), it’d be great if that’d get knocked off. Its not a good look, and probably steers potential customers elsewhere. I’d be more impressed to see “if you don’t have anything nice to say, stfu” in play between silencer companies. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:33:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that they only have one can each that compete directly (and not even flagship cans), it’d be great if that’d get knocked off. Its not a good look, and probably steers potential customers elsewhere. I’d be more impressed to see “if you don’t have anything nice to say, stfu” in play between silencer companies. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bonus Dead Air and Griffin Armament aren’t friends content. Given that they only have one can each that compete directly (and not even flagship cans), it’d be great if that’d get knocked off. Its not a good look, and probably steers potential customers elsewhere. I’d be more impressed to see “if you don’t have anything nice to say, stfu” in play between silencer companies. I wouldn't say we're not friends. We always enjoy seeing and chatting with the Griffin guys at shows. I apologize if any of comments really came across as negative, but this is the forum where I see Griffin pretty continuously pushing the limit on negative discussion and product disparagement so I'll sometimes pop in and say something when I see it. They tend to have free reign here because they're a paid advertiser so they either get away with it more, or they just feel entitled. Not sure. I've joked that I'll only make fun of Silencerco stuff, and that's because I helped design some of it, ran their operations, and owned part of the company at one point. Lol. I say don't pay attention to the drama. It's just not worth it. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 4:40:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another way to look at this is that if you ever have to use a suppressed gun seriously 1) are you likely to have a protracted run and gun engagement without a team/support/back up and 2) lacking that, how long do you think a solo engagement will last across a span of adversaries? I think the brick-shit-house-can is an artifact of the NFA rarifying what should be a common and cheap muffler and the over emphasis on FPS/CQB run and gun scenario versus the more likely break contact as a win for common lone serfs in first victim responder land. It’s not uncommon for long term suppressor users to start heavy, go light over time, and fish out the beasts for stupid fun on social range days. Plenty of folks paid to carry all gunned up go for short, light, and loud. Again, if not for the archaic post-prohibition era muffler tax most aficionados would have both extremes covered or a quiver of dedicated cans/hosts. Going light & cheap is a lot more more practical when one has easy access to resources & the funds to acquire them. Not so much when the situation is the inverse & you're not in that free lunch line club that gets to choose at their whim. Now, I really don't think that a SS can is going to have problems even in the harshest conditions that anyone could practically encounter, but there's a certain unquantifiable peace of mind that comes with having nth degree level hardware. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 7:24:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't say we're not friends. We always enjoy seeing and chatting with the Griffin guys at shows. I apologize if any of comments really came across as negative, but this is the forum where I see Griffin pretty continuously pushing the limit on negative discussion and product disparagement so I'll sometimes pop in and say something when I see it. They tend to have free reign here because they're a paid advertiser so they either get away with it more, or they just feel entitled. Not sure. I've joked that I'll only make fun of Silencerco stuff, and that's because I helped design some of it, ran their operations, and owned part of the company at one point. Lol. I say don't pay attention to the drama. It's just not worth it. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 12:23:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys should take advantage of the hype and do a charity silencer shoot off at SHOT show or NRA or something. Each company gets to design two stages, winner to be judged by HUXWRX. Loser has to post something nice about the other company on ARFCOM, minimum 500 word count. Or post a YouTube video trying to say “HUXWRX” 50 times in a row, as fast as they can. Second |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:21:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys should take advantage of the hype and do a charity silencer shoot off at SHOT show or NRA or something. Each company gets to design two stages, winner to be judged by HUXWRX. Loser has to post something nice about the other company on ARFCOM, minimum 500 word count. Or post a YouTube video trying to say “HUXWRX” 50 times in a row, as fast as they can. I’ll buy a ticket for $200, and donate an ASA membership. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 1:41:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys should take advantage of the hype and do a charity silencer shoot off at SHOT show or NRA or something. Each company gets to design two stages, winner to be judged by HUXWRX. Loser has to post something nice about the other company on ARFCOM, minimum 500 word count. Or post a YouTube video trying to say “HUXWRX” 50 times in a row, as fast as they can. Dead air is a good one to be a good one to be able to get together with the kids and I will be there is a good time to go to the store and get a new one for you to go to the house and get a new one for the kids and I will be there in a few minutes then set up a call and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will.. Griffin in the morning and I have to go to the store and get a few things done and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I can get it to you tomorrow morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the Huh. Usually I get more wild automatic writing but this is just a lame loop. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 2:30:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dead air is a good one to be a good one to be able to get together with the kids and I will be there is a good time to go to the store and get a new one for you to go to the house and get a new one for the kids and I will be there in a few minutes then set up a call and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will.. Griffin in the morning and I have to go to the store and get a few things done and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I can get it to you tomorrow morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the morning and I will be there in a few minutes then set up the extractor in the Huh. Usually I get more wild automatic writing but this is just a lame loop.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 3:52:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't say we're not friends. We always enjoy seeing and chatting with the Griffin guys at shows. I apologize if any of comments really came across as negative, but this is the forum where I see Griffin pretty continuously pushing the limit on negative discussion and product disparagement so I'll sometimes pop in and say something when I see it. They tend to have free reign here because they're a paid advertiser so they either get away with it more, or they just feel entitled. Not sure. I've joked that I'll only make fun of Silencerco stuff, and that's because I helped design some of it, ran their operations, and owned part of the company at one point. Lol. I say don't pay attention to the drama. It's just not worth it. I think some of the people at Dead Air are on speaking terms with some people at our company- AKA they have professional, infrequent but mutually beneficial conversations about how to move both companies forward- most of that happens between the sales people of the companies- those are the only speaking terms I'm aware of. Similarly to you I wouldn't say something negative. I would say we're competitors, in a market where we're going through the suppressor industry version of the 2012 AR15 boom. (for people missing the context, that's when there is a rush on an industry, that creates excessive supply, and then most of the startup companies dry up and blow away, because they were only there for a quick buck.) I can say I respect Dead Air significantly more than fill in the ____ popup company from the grey to black market form 1 kit suppressor industry that more or less is in the process of being shut down by the ATF. Suggesting we take advantage as a paid sponsor is somewhat dubious. I see your actions as trying to set and maintain a narrative to influence group think. You are rather frequently posting here often in ways that could easily be seen as sales support, as a non sponsor. Sometimes you particularly are involved in a 10 page thread selling product as a non sponsor. I think that's a bigger issue than judging the free speech of the site sponsors. I'm not a socialist or a communist. So what you do on the forum would make more sense if you were a paid sponsor. As far as I know the website is owned now by Brownells. They are a for-profit company as far as I know, and the site does cost money for them to operate, because they pay for the infrastructure, and employ really nice people who I see at SHOT SHOW for example working for Ar15.com talking to us in the aisle when they are doing their video with their participating sponsors every year. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 10:13:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Going light & cheap is a lot more more practical when one has easy access to resources & the funds to acquire them. Not so much when the situation is the inverse & you're not in that free lunch line club that gets to choose at their whim. Now, I really don't think that a SS can is going to have problems even in the harshest conditions that anyone could practically encounter, but there's a certain unquantifiable peace of mind that comes with having nth degree level hardware. There is a hiking adage that “you pack your fears.” The guy with the 80lb pack for a 3-day summer jaunt probably has all kinds of retarded stuff to prepare him for ANY situation that may come his way, and he’s gonna hate the next 72hrs because of it. Or he could recognize you don’t need a 0-degree sleeping bag in August in Georgia and save a couple pounds, for starters. You’ve got to balance the minute chance that you may encounter these far-fetched situations against the reality that you have to carry the weight 100% of the time you handle that suppressor. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 10:24:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a hiking adage that “you pack your fears.” The guy with the 80lb pack for a 3-day summer jaunt probably has all kinds of retarded stuff to prepare him for ANY situation that may come his way, and he’s gonna hate the next 72hrs because of it. Or he could recognize you don’t need a 0-degree sleeping bag in August in Georgia and save a couple pounds, for starters. You’ve got to balance the minute chance that you may encounter these far-fetched situations against the reality that you have to carry the weight 100% of the time you handle that suppressor. And some backpackers camp in zero degree weather and need a zero degree bag. Most don’t. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 10:44:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And some backpackers camp in zero degree weather and need a zero degree bag. Most don’t. You might have missed that part where I was responding to a comment about what one might “practically encounter.” In case you’ve never been to Georgia, I assure you that a 0-degree bag isn’t necessary in summer. Being “ready for anything” has a price you pay 100% of the time that may only be a benefit 0.0000001% of the time, with the potential to be a detriment the rest of the time. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 10:54:19 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might have missed that part where I was responding to a comment about what one might “practically encounter.” In case you’ve never been to Georgia, I assure you that a 0-degree bag isn’t necessary in summer. Being “ready for anything” has a price you pay 100% of the time that may only be a benefit 0.0000001% of the time, with the potential to be a detriment the rest of the time. I understand your point. It’s retarded like a machine gun can with restrictions or limited beltfed testing. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 11:06:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I understand your point. It’s retarded like a machine gun can with restrictions or limited beltfed testing. Just out of curiosity, which machine gun can has restrictions or limited beltfed testing? I’m not sure which suppressor(s) you’re referring to. |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 11:13:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just out of curiosity, which machine gun can has restrictions or limited beltfed testing? I’m not sure which suppressor(s) you’re referring to. Comparing the Explorr to a Sandman is ridiculous in regards to a machine gun can. A machine gun silencer requires inconnel or stellite for extreme durability. But… “that’s just like my opinion man.” Limited testing of something on a belt-fed does not make it a machine gun can by default. Q is as guilty of this style of marketing as Griffin is. ETA: So no restrictions but Griffin “recommends” and quantifies with… EXPLORR® suppressors do not have minimum barrel length restrictions or constraints for rifle calibers. While longer barrels promote longer service life, there are no barrel length restrictions with this suppressor! A2 Minimum barrel length : 16" .308 12.5" 6.8SPC 8" 7.62x39 8" 300BLK (super or subsonic) 10.5" 5.56mm |
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Posted: 10/1/2022 11:26:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Comparing the Explorr to a Sandman is ridiculous in regards to a machine gun can. A machine gun silencer requires inconnel or stellite for extreme durability. But… “that’s just like my opinion man.” Limited testing of something on a belt-fed does not make it a machine gun can by default. Q is as guilty of this style of marketing as Griffin is. I appreciate the Big Lebowski reference. Regarding “rating,” isn’t it all relative in terms of restriction? 100rds in 9 seconds through a M240 is basically the cyclic rate of the gun. Griffin says their can doesn’t suffer damage based on that usage level. We know from a much-hated video that it takes less than 300rds through a M240 at cyclic rate to rupture a Sandman-S. So what beating can the Sandman-S take without damage? Maybe 200rds? I don’t disagree that the Sandman is more durable, but at the end of the day, it’s just a question of how many rounds you want to put through it before you have to let it cool unless we’re talking about a real MG can. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 8:20:01 AM EDT
[#29]
I think when it comes to people looking for machine gun rated durability in a can, there are two kinds of people:
People (or organizations) need to suppress machine guns. I guess people who mag dump into dirt clods go here too. People who tend to default to more is better and are skeptical that a 10-12 ounce suppressor can stand up to normal use on a tactical semi auto rifle. They want to buy enough suppressor to have some room for growth or error. One nice thing about a heavier suppressor like my Dead Air Wolverine is that more thermal mass means that it’s less likely to get hot enough to make leg bacon if being run in a tactical carbine course, 2 gun, etc. Once it actually does get hot enough to burn, more thermal mass = takes longer to cool down. Really just depends on normal firing schedule. I tend to prefer lighter suppressors personally, but not everyone does. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 10:39:06 AM EDT
[#30]
Even for abnormal, abusive firing schedules there’s a point where firing also gets abusive to the barrel for 5.56.
The well built heavy cans give more margin on shorter barrels, and weight is less noticeable there but counter acts having a light, short upper. For a recreational full auto host like an M-16 swapping multiple suppressed uppers when things get warm is easier/faster than swapping a single hot can. Also with longer barrels, more complete powder burn, less muzzle pressure and swapping uppers/cans every 90-120 rounds allows putting a lighter can capable of that on those longer barrels. For calibers like 300 blackout long strings of full auto fire is expensive, limiting duration, and especially with subs doesn’t put nearly the load into the suppressor. Flow through suppressor designs may have an advantage staying cooler longer and resisting flame erosion. Problem is the human skin pain threshold of 140 F is reached quickly regardless. Mirage effects come pretty quickly thereafter. It will be interesting to see how the US Marines developing experience feeds back practice and drives design. |
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Posted: 10/2/2022 11:22:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think when it comes to people looking for machine gun rated durability in a can, there are two kinds of people: People (or organizations) need to suppress machine guns. I guess people who mag dump into dirt clods go here too. People who tend to default to more is better and are skeptical that a 10-12 ounce suppressor can stand up to normal use on a tactical semi auto rifle. They want to buy enough suppressor to have some room for growth or error. One nice thing about a heavier suppressor like my Dead Air Wolverine is that more thermal mass means that it’s less likely to get hot enough to make leg bacon if being run in a tactical carbine course, 2 gun, etc. Once it actually does get hot enough to burn, more thermal mass = takes longer to cool down. Really just depends on normal firing schedule. I tend to prefer lighter suppressors personally, but not everyone does. I've got two Sandmans, a K and an S. I do have a binary in one AR lower so if I really wanted to expend ammo in a rather quicker than usual fashion I could. Also I like to be optimistic and live in hope that some day before my time on this green earth is over that the Hughes amendment of 86 along with the GCA of 68 and NFA of 34 are abolished so I may drill that third hole legally someday. Having a stout can or two around for that day will be handy. I'll most likely never really put either of those 2 cans anywhere near their limit but its nice to know that they can handle it. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 7:26:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When a truck commercial says "Like a rock", that doesn't mean you can't hit the truck with a baseball bat and make a dent. We didn't create the belt fed rated phenomenon, nor were we the first company to say no restrictions. I feel like you are misplacing your frustration on a company that isn't responsible for the development of those somewhat unrealistic concepts. I believe M&M's used to say "melts in your mouth, not in your hand." To an extent its true, but hold onto the M&M's and you'll have a brown and rainbow colored palm before long. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 8:40:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a hiking adage that “you pack your fears.” The guy with the 80lb pack for a 3-day summer jaunt probably has all kinds of retarded stuff to prepare him for ANY situation that may come his way, and he’s gonna hate the next 72hrs because of it. Or he could recognize you don’t need a 0-degree sleeping bag in August in Georgia and save a couple pounds, for starters. You’ve got to balance the minute chance that you may encounter these far-fetched situations against the reality that you have to carry the weight 100% of the time you handle that suppressor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Going light & cheap is a lot more more practical when one has easy access to resources & the funds to acquire them. Not so much when the situation is the inverse & you're not in that free lunch line club that gets to choose at their whim. Now, I really don't think that a SS can is going to have problems even in the harshest conditions that anyone could practically encounter, but there's a certain unquantifiable peace of mind that comes with having nth degree level hardware. There is a hiking adage that “you pack your fears.” The guy with the 80lb pack for a 3-day summer jaunt probably has all kinds of retarded stuff to prepare him for ANY situation that may come his way, and he’s gonna hate the next 72hrs because of it. Or he could recognize you don’t need a 0-degree sleeping bag in August in Georgia and save a couple pounds, for starters. You’ve got to balance the minute chance that you may encounter these far-fetched situations against the reality that you have to carry the weight 100% of the time you handle that suppressor. I looked these .32 cal cans up for comparison: Sandman S: SS tube, Inconel baffles L=6.8" Weight=17.7 oz Sandman S: SS tube, Inconel baffles L=8.9" Weight=21.8 oz YHM Resonator: tubeless, SS baffles, Inconel blast baffle, L=7.82" Weight=16.8 oz (QD) These are roughly in the same "performance class". The S is the closer match, & in that comparison, it has SS tube & all Inconel baffles, & gives up 0.9 oz to the Resonator, which is tubeless & has SS baffle stack + 1 Inconel blast baffle. Now, you could argue that the Resonator config is more than sufficient, & that's "practically" true. But that said, I'm not seeing a "massive" weight discrepancy here for the extra, over-the-top effort on DA's part. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 8:53:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I looked these .32 cal cans up for comparison: Sandman S: SS tube, Inconel baffles L=6.8" Weight=17.7 oz Sandman S: SS tube, Inconel baffles L=8.9" Weight=21.8 oz YHM Resonator: tubeless, SS baffles, Inconel blast baffle, L=7.82" Weight=16.8 oz (QD) These are roughly in the same "performance class". The S is the closer match, & in that comparison, it has SS tube & all Inconel baffles, & gives up 0.9 oz to the Resonator, which is tubeless & has SS baffle stack + 1 Inconel blast baffle. Now, you could argue that the Resonator config is more than sufficient, & that's "practically" true. But that said, I'm not seeing a "massive" weight discrepancy here for the extra, over-the-top effort on DA's part. The Resonator is also chonky. Compare them to a Nomad, Explorr, Vox, Hyperion, Dominus, etc. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 9:18:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Resonator is also chonky. Compare them to a Nomad, Explorr, Vox, Hyperion, Dominus, etc. I think the Nomad is bigger diameter than a Resonator. Vox is about the same size as an Omega-300 tube, suppresses about like a Sandman S. Omega and Nomad are close with most human ears. Lots of good choices across price range, weight, mounts, muzzle devices. You have to work hard to get a complete dog, and forums and influencers work full time to create FOMO and buzz. |
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Posted: 10/3/2022 9:42:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Probably wasn’t clear, but “chonky” was a reference to weight, not size.
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Posted: 10/3/2022 11:37:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When a truck commercial says "Like a rock", that doesn't mean you can't hit the truck with a baseball bat and make a dent. We didn't create the belt fed rated phenomenon, nor were we the first company to say no restrictions. I feel like you are misplacing your frustration on a company that isn't responsible for the development of those somewhat unrealistic concepts. I believe M&M's used to say "melts in your mouth, not in your hand." To an extent its true, but hold onto the M&M's and you'll have a brown and rainbow colored palm before long. Like I said… I’d love to see an Explorr vs Sandman beltfed torture test. My money is on the stellite can. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 12:52:03 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Resonator is also chonky. Compare them to a Nomad, Explorr, Vox, Hyperion, Dominus, etc. I singled it out since I mentioned SS. Vox is a closer comparison to the Sandman for size, & while it's definitely lighter, I question whether it can take the same schedule as those I listed. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 8:46:50 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I singled it out since I mentioned SS. Vox is a closer comparison to the Sandman for size, & while it's definitely lighter, I question whether it can take the same schedule as those I listed. We might be talking [typing] past one another, but that's sort of my point regarding firing schedule. A lot of people carry around a lot of extra weight for a "just in case" fantasy firing schedule they'll probably never see or may not even have the hardware to achieve. That's what the backpacking analogy was in regard to. Keep in mind the titanium TBAC Dominus series has tested through 10 cycles of SOCOM/SURG firing schedule, and it's still fairly light weight. Even when preparing for "just in case," you don't necessarily have to add lots of extra weight to your gun. I'm not saying no one needs a true "hard use" can. There are people who regularly shoot a "hard use" schedule who benefit from a heavy can with Stellite/Inconel construction to better manage that erosive use, but I don't think it's needed for a one-time event, especially a hypothetical SHTF one-time event. Even in an extreme one-time event like the M240 "testing," the Sandman S didn't last all that much longer than a Rex Silentium, even with the benefit of a handful of jams to slow the firing rate for the Sandman (I think it was a low-200s unbroken string for the Rex and high-200s interrupted string for the Sandman from what I recall; I'd have to watch again for the exact round counts). |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 9:45:01 AM EDT
[#40]
I was looking for a .30 can that could be run hard on stupid short 5.56 rifles and had a solid quick attach system. After comparing options I went with the Sandman S. What sold me on the Sandman S was the size, integrated Keymo, and durability. Direct thread would be pointless for my application as I use the suppressor on multiple rifles. I believe the Sandman S weight penalty is overstated as just about anything with Keymo added is going to be the same weight or heavier. Weight may be a factor for you. For me at the time of purchase it was not. I've had the opportunity to hunt with my Sandman S on a 716i and have not found it too heavy to pack around for miles.
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Posted: 10/4/2022 2:44:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like I said… I’d love to see an Explorr vs Sandman beltfed torture test. My money is on the stellite can. The Dead air can in the video ran 4 seconds, 3 seconds, 2 seconds, 7 seconds, 5 seconds, 1 second, 1 round?, 1.5 seconds, 4 seconds (at this point the tube ruptured forward 1/3 followed by an additional second in that burst.). That's 28.5 seconds total at that point, but with all the interrupted malf clearance and several cuts of the film, so we have no idea how long this took to shoot. Once the can ruptured in the forward third, it was cooled to room temperature (demonstrated by a person putting the can back on with their bare hand) that ruptured tube reduced backpressure and allowed it to run for 10-11 seconds to its second catastrophic rear core weld failure. The 240 liked it better with the hole in the side. One thing the Sandman S can't apparently do, is run for 10 contiguous seconds like our video proved our Explorr 30 could do. I've actually never had a malf with one of our suppressors on the 240. Rex did run 20 seconds (their first 3 baffle short blast suppressor), and 15 their second 3 baffle short blast suppressor So Rex ran reliably. Our can had 6 baffles. It could produce 139DB 1M left. I just got an instant message yesterday from a forum member interested in Dual Lok because their Dead Air can sheared a lug (those small 3 lugs that hold the can on the gun) and he launched it 30 yds down range. I didn't solicit that message. So there is a potential failure point that you aren't considering. The tubeless cans cool a lot faster than tube over cans, so they do achieve high practical sustained rates of fire. That's an area where tube over and tubed isn't apples to oranges, they are two different construction methods with different pros and cons. What can anyone should buy is a personal preference decision based on what they need. If they have a 240, Maxim Defense makes a 240 can specifically for the 240. That would probably be a good choice in lieu of other obviously dedicated options. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 2:51:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Dead air can in the video ran 4 seconds, 3 seconds, 2 seconds, 7 seconds, 5 seconds, 1 second, 1 round?, 1.5 seconds, 4 seconds (at this point the tube ruptured forward 1/3 followed by an additional second in that burst.). That's 28.5 seconds total at that point, but with all the interrupted malf clearance and several cuts of the film, so we have no idea how long this took to shoot. Once the can ruptured in the forward third, it was cooled to room temperature (demonstrated by a person putting the can back on with their bare hand) that ruptured tube reduced backpressure allowed it to run for 10-11 seconds to its second catastrophic rear core weld failure. The 240 liked it better with the hole in the side. One thing the Sandman S can't apparently do, is run for 10 contiguous seconds like our video proved our Explorr 30 could do. I've actually never had a malf with one of our suppressors on the 240. Rex did run 20 seconds (their first really short can), and 15 their second really short can. So Rex ran reliably. I just got an instant message yesterday from a forum member interested in Dual Lok because their Dead Air can sheared a lug (those small 3 lugs that hold the can on the gun) and he launched it 30 yds down range. I didn't solicit that message. So there is a potential failure point that you aren't considering. The tubeless cans cool a lot faster than tube over cans, so they do achieve high practical sustained rates of fire. That's an area where tube over and tubed isn't apples to oranges, they are two different construction methods with different pros and cons. What can anyone should buy is a personal preference decision based on what they need. If they have a 240, Maxim Defense makes a 240 can specifically for the 240. That would probably be a good choice in lieu of other obviously dedicated options. I appreciate this response and your POV. What can would you recommend in your line up for full auto back to back 223 or 300blackout drum mag dumping? I would like to compare comparable silencers. What would you put up against a SandmanS?  My Omega holds up okay so far… But I’ve been gentle. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 5:01:35 PM EDT
[#43]
D60's on barrels 10.5" or longer are no problem for anything in the line. But if you are talking like running a pair of D60's back to back on a regular basis, the 30 caliber bore of something like the Sandman S is going to be easier on the can.
Our 30SDK would be a very durable can. We have run the Recce 7 to 200 rounds on the 240L 16" barrel with some burst fire many times without an issue. Longer barrels will also help a lot, so if you run 120 rounds of 556 through an M4 barrel, that's probably like running 75 of 556 through a 10.5" barrel. There is a warning two places in the KAC M4QD manual that says, Firing should be limited to: semiautomatic or burst fire except in emergencies. Never subject the model QD suppressor to more than 90 rounds of continuous automatic fire. If this limit is reached, allow the unit to cool before resuming fire if the tactical situation permits. Up to 15 rounds per minute of continual fire is acceptable. Extraordinary full automatic firing will cause premature loss of performance. That demonstrates that really stacking heat is not recommended even on 22 ounce 5.56mm suppressor products. My brother worked with a former Army Ranger Reconnaissance soldier contracting, and he mentioned he destroyed a brand new NT4 with a 200 round belt on a SAW. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 5:13:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: D60's on barrels 10.5" or longer are no problem for anything in the line. But if you are talking like running a pair of D60's back to back on a regular basis, the 30 caliber bore of something like the Sandman S is going to be easier on the can. Our 30SDK would be a very durable can. We have run the Recce 7 to 200 rounds on the 240L 16" barrel with some burst fire many times without an issue. Longer barrels will also help a lot, so if you run 120 rounds of 556 through an M4 barrel, that's probably like running 75 of 556 through a 10.5" barrel. There is a warning two places in the KAC M4QD manual that says, That demonstrates that really stacking heat is not recommended even on 22 ounce 5.56mm suppressor products. My brother worked with a former Army Ranger Reconnaissance soldier contracting, and he mentioned he destroyed a brand new NT4 with a 200 round belt on a SAW. Thank you for confirming what I thought. |
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Posted: 10/4/2022 10:09:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appreciate this response and your POV. What can would you recommend in your line up for full auto back to back 223 or 300blackout drum mag dumping? I would like to compare comparable silencers. What would you put up against a SandmanS? https://i.imgur.com/7vjX5qS.jpg My Omega holds up okay so far… But I’ve been gentle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Dead air can in the video ran 4 seconds, 3 seconds, 2 seconds, 7 seconds, 5 seconds, 1 second, 1 round?, 1.5 seconds, 4 seconds (at this point the tube ruptured forward 1/3 followed by an additional second in that burst.). That's 28.5 seconds total at that point, but with all the interrupted malf clearance and several cuts of the film, so we have no idea how long this took to shoot. Once the can ruptured in the forward third, it was cooled to room temperature (demonstrated by a person putting the can back on with their bare hand) that ruptured tube reduced backpressure allowed it to run for 10-11 seconds to its second catastrophic rear core weld failure. The 240 liked it better with the hole in the side. One thing the Sandman S can't apparently do, is run for 10 contiguous seconds like our video proved our Explorr 30 could do. I've actually never had a malf with one of our suppressors on the 240. Rex did run 20 seconds (their first really short can), and 15 their second really short can. So Rex ran reliably. I just got an instant message yesterday from a forum member interested in Dual Lok because their Dead Air can sheared a lug (those small 3 lugs that hold the can on the gun) and he launched it 30 yds down range. I didn't solicit that message. So there is a potential failure point that you aren't considering. The tubeless cans cool a lot faster than tube over cans, so they do achieve high practical sustained rates of fire. That's an area where tube over and tubed isn't apples to oranges, they are two different construction methods with different pros and cons. What can anyone should buy is a personal preference decision based on what they need. If they have a 240, Maxim Defense makes a 240 can specifically for the 240. That would probably be a good choice in lieu of other obviously dedicated options. I appreciate this response and your POV. What can would you recommend in your line up for full auto back to back 223 or 300blackout drum mag dumping? I would like to compare comparable silencers. What would you put up against a SandmanS? https://i.imgur.com/7vjX5qS.jpg My Omega holds up okay so far… But I’ve been gentle. You're continually pressing about mag-dump/FA can durability and have an open emitter (SRO-like) optic on your long gun... Too bad the Bear Pit is no longer a thing. |
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Posted: 10/5/2022 2:03:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're continually pressing about mag-dump/FA can durability and have an open emitter (SRO-like) optic on your long gun... Too bad the Bear Pit is no longer a thing. I am really glad some of the key players at GA, DA, TBAC, EA, and other manufacturers hang around this forum. TBH I’m even kind of glad some of them don’t get along with each other, keeps everyone honest and extra motivated to make better products. I just hope the dislike doesn’t cause rage quitting, because manufacturer/vendor involvement is, to my mind at least, what makes this subforum fairly special. Slightly different topic: I sort of wish more vendors published SOCOM firing schedule results akin to how TBAC does, maybe even to destruction. Not because I really care for my own uses, but at least then everyone could argue about which can is better for hypothetical mag dumps into dirt clods using more standardized data. It’s not easy to figure out how many SOCOM firing schedules equates to how many FA mag dumps from a 7.5” barrel, and I don’t know how to convert either to however many SAW or .240 belt rips a suppressor can take. We are all on different standards here and need to be on the same one. Like how America is on the good “went to the moon” standard, but most of the rest of the world thinks meters are more practical than feet or yards. |
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Posted: 10/5/2022 8:07:12 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . There is a warning two places in the KAC M4QD manual that says, That demonstrates that really stacking heat is not recommended even on 22 ounce 5.56mm suppressor products. My brother worked with a former Army Ranger Reconnaissance soldier contracting, and he mentioned he destroyed a brand new NT4 with a 200 round belt on a SAW. While being an actual Army Ranger, I have fired belts through a Mk46 with a NT4 in an attempt to destroy it. It was not destroyed. |
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Posted: 10/5/2022 8:10:26 AM EDT
[#48]
skip dual lock and go explorr taper mount 30.
Edit. I see I already posted this. |
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Posted: 10/5/2022 9:28:08 AM EDT
[#49]
For that list I’d definitely go with a nomad. I wouldn’t go with anything with a proprietary mount.
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Posted: 10/5/2022 1:07:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: GA really gets under the donut fella's skin, which appears to be a result of him needing to mag dump lots of 5.56 and .300blk, and GA not being willing enough to admit that their lighter weight cans aren't a good fit for that CONOP. I think they've gone at it in a few different threads, but could be getting him mixed up with another person. I sort of get it, but generally speaking I think the whole thing is funny. I am really glad some of the key players at GA, DA, TBAC, EA, and other manufacturers hang around this forum. TBH I'm even kind of glad some of them don't get along with each other, keeps everyone honest and extra motivated to make better products. I just hope the dislike doesn't cause rage quitting, because manufacturer/vendor involvement is, to my mind at least, what makes this subforum fairly special. Slightly different topic: I sort of wish more vendors published SOCOM firing schedule results akin to how TBAC does, maybe even to destruction. Not because I really care for my own uses, but at least then everyone could argue about which can is better for hypothetical mag dumps into dirt clods using more standardized data. It's not easy to figure out how many SOCOM firing schedules equates to how many FA mag dumps from a 7.5" barrel, and I don't know how to convert either to however many SAW or .240 belt rips a suppressor can take. We are all on different standards here and need to be on the same one. Like how America is on the good "went to the moon" standard, but most of the rest of the world thinks meters are more practical than feet or yards. |
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