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Posted: 1/18/2023 4:33:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The handguard is unnecessarily large. That adds useless weight, not only that but it looks very cumbersome. The original polymer handguard as seen on the military version is undoubtedly lighter, plus it looks very comfortable to grip. The receiver is still like a foot tall. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 7:49:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The location on the mil version, which extends further to the rear than the widened portion of the cocking slot, has this area filled in on the civilian version. So, it doesn’t look like it could be under the handguard, unless they also moved it forward which seems unlikely. They went from a contoured comfortable looking HG to a rectangular uncomfortable looking extrusion and felt obligated to stick an AR grip on it too. What a turn off to the entire platform. I’m not sure they could have screwed this rifle up more if they tried. 
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Posted: 1/18/2023 8:17:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: my guess is because they get their marketing research from IG/Reddit posts where everyone post pictures of range toys with full length Mlok on everything packed with every aftermarket accessory they can attach. They get tons of random 14yo gamers liking the pics so they think that’s what everyone wants. People who are serious about modding a gun for competitive purposes aren’t going to run an 8lbs Carmel with a mlok rail and no aftermarket parts. They are going to build a lightweight AR Race gun. Most people who buy the Carmel will put an optic, maybe a VFG and/or light. The few that have to add mods usually use aftermarket rails to cut weight not add 1/2lbs. https://www.roscomanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DSC01448.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The location on the mil version, which extends further to the rear than the widened portion of the cocking slot, has this area filled in on the civilian version. So, it doesn’t look like it could be under the handguard, unless they also moved it forward which seems unlikely. They went from a contoured comfortable looking HG to a rectangular uncomfortable looking extrusion and felt obligated to stick an AR grip on it too. What a turn off to the entire platform. I’m not sure they could have screwed this rifle up more if they tried. https://www.roscomanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DSC01448.jpg I agree. I don't have a single rifle that looks anything like most of the rifles that you see on Instagram, I don't even have a free float Mlok anything... I've strongly rejected advancing past fixed picatinny, and for the most part I went backwards into retro-land because it's all gone a bit too far IMO. At this point I just like stock military rifles with a few exceptions related to aftermarket accessories. I'm certainly no trend jumper and I rarely buy into the latest gimmicks and fads. 
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Posted: 1/18/2023 10:49:36 PM EDT
[#4]
IWI ruined this like CZ ruined the Bren 2.
Yes...I'm bitter. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 11:00:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. I don't have a single rifle that looks anything like most of the rifles that you see on Instagram, I don't even have a free float Mlok anything... I've strongly rejected advancing past fixed picatinny, and for the most part I went backwards into retro-land because it's all gone a bit too far IMO. At this point I just like stock military rifles with a few exceptions related to aftermarket accessories. I'm certainly no trend jumper and I rarely buy into the latest gimmicks and fads. |
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Posted: 1/18/2023 11:07:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IWI ruined this like CZ ruined the Bren 2. Yes...I'm bitter.  |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 12:40:17 AM EDT
[#7]
As I think about it more and more I think I'll just keep my AUG as my go-to rifle. I was fine with the handguard at first, but I keep looking at it and it keeps looking as dumb as the handguard on the CZ Bren 2 Carbine.
I'd still like to shoot one but it looks just like a Bren 2 Carbine which I have owned and don't care for. The pistol variant Brens are way better looking, but still annoyed they didn't keep the full monolithic upper. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:10:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I think about it more and more I think I'll just keep my AUG as my go-to rifle. I was fine with the handguard at first, but I keep looking at it and it keeps looking as dumb as the handguard on the CZ Bren 2 Carbine. I'd still like to shoot one but it looks just like a Bren 2 Carbine which I have owned and don't care for. The pistol variant Brens are way better looking, but still annoyed they didn't keep the full monolithic upper.  , another on FB said this is the new military version , I asked why IWI Int uses the polymer hand guard and they said this one is US only. . At least the email response was not asinine, “Goodmorning,To my knowledge we will not be offering the polymer handguard version. I will let the appropriate party know your concerns and maybe we will see it on the market with enough consumer support. [email protected]”
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:32:55 AM EDT
[#9]
I think it would've been okay if the MLok HG were just cut back behind the gas block, as it would've reduced bulk & weight. As is, it's just too much. It is removable & could be cut back with the right tools, &/or the aftermark could also offer a shorter HG.
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Posted: 1/19/2023 10:59:49 AM EDT
[#10]
I’ll probably get one. Seems like a Bren 2 / ARX100 love child.
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Posted: 1/19/2023 11:36:39 AM EDT
[#11]
Disregard their reply to me. Apparently they did get rid of the quick swap barrel.
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Posted: 1/19/2023 12:54:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Disregard their reply to me. Apparently they did get rid of the quick swap barrel. It's starting to sound like they don't know whether they did away with it or not. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 12:54:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol I got called bitter on FB for saying the same thing , I was like damn right I am! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IWI ruined this like CZ ruined the Bren 2. Yes...I'm bitter. You know what else I'm bitter about? PTR putting out that crappy ass and overly expensive G41 wannabe and MKE adding AR15s to its lineup instead of getting their 762 and 556 roller locks across the finish line and Beretta giving up on the ARX. I don't want more ARs. I don't want guns that companies feel they need to Americanize or make more AR like. Looks like if I want another 556 I am going to stop toying with the idea and just get another AUG. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:22:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Disregard their reply to me. Apparently they did get rid of the quick swap barrel. It's starting to sound like they don't know whether they did away with it or not. Well, I hate to be right about it, but I noticed the absence of the QD lever back when the 1st leaked pic was posted, & it wouldn't make any sense to move it around unless IWI just wanted to spend more on development just for shits. @StillGonnaSendIt specifically who was it that told you it is - & now is not - a feature? I haven't seen a single mention of it in any of the SHOT YTs or articles, as well as IWI's own media. ETA, confirmed here (skip to 3:18), QD barrel was cut from the commercial model.  The IWI Carmel Rifle is Coming to the USA The Tavor 7 has been their best "pure" effort to date, IMO. ETA sorry for the typos, my phone is acting up. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:22:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Well, my apologies to @Master_Blaster
It seems they did remove the QD barrel from the US made Carmel which can be heard around the 3:20 mark of the video below. The IWI Carmel Rifle is Coming to the USA "Most people aren't going to utilize the quick change barrel" was their reasoning for getting rid of it. What a stupid response. I love IWI's guns for their reliability, durability, and QC... but they need to stop "Americanizing" all their shit in the looks department. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:34:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, my apologies to @Master_Blaster It seems they did remove the QD barrel from the US made Carmel which can be heard around the 3:20 mark of the video below.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZATFgDhyt0"Most people aren't going to utilize the quick change barrel" was their reasoning for getting rid of it. What a stupid response. I love IWI's guns for their reliability, durability, and QC... they need to stop "Americanizing" all their shit in the looks department. This needs to be repeated and repeated often and shouted off the roof tops. Not just to IWI either. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:35:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, my apologies to @Master_Blaster It seems they did remove the QD barrel from the US made Carmel which can be heard around the 3:20 mark of the video below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZATFgDhyt0"Most people aren't going to utilize the quick change barrel" was their reasoning for getting rid of it. What a stupid response. I love IWI's guns for their reliability, durability, and QC... but they need to stop "Americanizing" all their shit in the looks department. Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, my apologies to @Master_Blaster It seems they did remove the QD barrel from the US made Carmel which can be heard around the 3:20 mark of the video below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZATFgDhyt0"Most people aren't going to utilize the quick change barrel" was their reasoning for getting rid of it. What a stupid response. I love IWI's guns for their reliability, durability, and QC... but they need to stop "Americanizing" all their shit in the looks department. Hah! Beat you by 30 secs. That's an eternity on the interwebz. Quoted: You know what else I'm bitter about? PTR putting out that crappy ass and overly expensive G41 wannabe and MKE adding AR15s to its lineup instead of getting their 762 and 556 roller locks across the finish line and Beretta giving up on the ARX. I don't want more ARs. I don't want guns that companies feel they need to Americanize or make more AR like. Looks like if I want another 556 I am going to stop toying with the idea and just get another AUG. Tell me. I have the ARX100, & wanted the 200 to complete the family. But Beretta couldn't stick around long enough to mature the marketing for the line. Just cut & ran off. I'm down to either getting a Tavor 7 or going the precision route & dropping major for an MRAD. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:40:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I hate to be right about it, but I noticed the absence of the QD lever back when the 1st leaked pic was3:18 posted, & it wouldn't make any sense to move it around unless IWI just wanted to spend more on development just for shits. @StillGonnaSendIt specifically who was it that told you it is - & now is not - a feature? Gotta I haven't seen a single mention of it in any of the SHOT YTs or articles, as well as IWI's own media. ETA, confirmed here (skip to 3:18), QD barrel was cut from the commercial model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZATFgDhyt0The Tavor 7 has been their best "pure" effort to date, IMO. Someone posted an email reply from IWI in one thread claiming they were keeping it.  Honestly if you look at all the "modular" not-ARs that have hit the market in the last decade or so, the reason people end up not using QD barrel features are 1) the manufacturer never makes them available, and 2) for less cost and a minimal amount of more bulk you can have an AR with several uppers that already have sighted in optics married to them. SCAR barrels cost more than a complete AR and aren't even available in other calibers, just different lengths. The ACR didn't get caliber kits for several years, and the ARX never did before it was discontinued. The XCR is probably best for that purpose, but everything is essentially direct order from Robinson, and how often do you even see an XCR? We have yet to see a good faith effort to make a rifle with qd barrels/caliber conversions by any manufacturer of a size that could support one. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:52:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I hate to be right about it, but I noticed the absence of the QD lever back when the 1st leaked pic was posted, & it wouldn't make any sense to move it around unless IWI just wanted to spend more on development just for shits. @StillGonnaSendIt specifically who was it that told you it is - & now is not - a feature? I haven't seen a single mention of it in any of the SHOT YTs or articles, as well as IWI's own media. ETA, confirmed here (skip to 3:18), QD barrel was cut from the commercial model. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZATFgDhyt0The Tavor 7 has been their best "pure" effort to date, IMO. ETA sorry for the typos, my phone is acting up. So the guy that usually replies at IWI on Facebook is involved with the US market design so maybe it was someone else this time? But that video you posted is where I found out I was misled or they didn’t know. Very disappointed especially when the dude said “no ken wanted it”. What the fuck? That’s why I was highly interested in the Carmel. I could have lived with the stupid handguard choice and grip choice but idk the barrel swapping might be a deal breaker now. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 1:52:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone posted an email reply from IWI in one thread claiming they were keeping it. Honestly if you look at all the "modular" not-ARs that have hit the market in the last decade or so, the reason people end up not using QD barrel features are 1) the manufacturer never makes them available, and 2) for less cost and a minimal amount of more bulk you can have an AR with several uppers that already have sighted in optics married to them. SCAR barrels cost more than a complete AR and aren't even available in other calibers, just different lengths. The ACR didn't get caliber kits for several years, and the ARX never did before it was discontinued. The XCR is probably best for that purpose, but everything is essentially direct order from Robinson, and how often do you even see an XCR? We have yet to see a good faith effort to make a rifle with qd barrels/caliber conversions by any manufacturer of a size that could support one. It simply comes down to commitment by the mfger to follow through on the plan. Beretta was at least making SBR barrels for the ARX, & at reasonable prices when they first started producing them. I bought 2 for ~$350 per. SCAR barrels cost more than an AR upper because, for reasons I can't fathom, FN can get away with scalping its customers. The AK mag-compatible 7.62x39 conversion kits for the ARX would've sent the product, IMO, but then they just ducked & ran. No commitment. Same with the 200. They had a modern .308 right there to buck FN, but then nothing. They utterly blue-balled the customer base of that line. I wasn't shopping for an AR. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:04:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone posted an email reply from IWI in one thread claiming they were keeping it. Honestly if you look at all the "modular" not-ARs that have hit the market in the last decade or so, the reason people end up not using QD barrel features are 1) the manufacturer never makes them available, and 2) for less cost and a minimal amount of more bulk you can have an AR with several uppers that already have sighted in optics married to them. SCAR barrels cost more than a complete AR and aren't even available in other calibers, just different lengths. The ACR didn't get caliber kits for several years, and the ARX never did before it was discontinued. The XCR is probably best for that purpose, but everything is essentially direct order from Robinson, and how often do you even see an XCR? We have yet to see a good faith effort to make a rifle with qd barrels/caliber conversions by any manufacturer of a size that could support one. Looks more and more like IWI is dropping the ball on this one more and more. As for the QD , I use it for cleaning mod but would have been nice to pop in a 300bo bbl with a flip of a lever. At this point I’m more excited about the underfolder zpap than this. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:31:32 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:35:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks more and more like IWI is dropping the ball on this one more and more. As for the QD , I use it for cleaning mod but would have been nice to pop in a 300bo bbl with a flip of a lever. At this point I’m more excited about the underfolder zpap than this. Yup, they are dropping it. I really, truly do not understand the thought process that motivates pouring time/effort/money into making your own brand of rifle to just be an AR. If they want to make an AR, the plans are already out there, no R&D required. But I digress. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 2:58:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ll add the Carmel to my “bitter” list that started with the Sig USA 55x…. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/82995/72DC58B1-5B09-4C54-A693-0F485F1D2227_jpe-2677962.JPG I love my Sig 556. Shame I can't get parts for it. 
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Posted: 1/19/2023 3:03:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We have yet to see a good faith effort to make a rifle with qd barrels/caliber conversions by any manufacturer of a size that could support one. LMT for M4/AR platform Sig MCX for non M4 platform Lots of barrel options for calibers and lengths available for those two qd barrel platforms. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 3:10:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the guy that usually replies at IWI on Facebook is involved with the US market design so maybe it was someone else this time? But that video you posted is where I found out I was misled or they didn’t know. Very disappointed especially when the dude said “no ken wanted it”. What the fuck? That’s why I was highly interested in the Carmel. I could have lived with the stupid handguard choice and grip choice but idk the barrel swapping might be a deal breaker now. I am thinking similarly. I’m happy with the AR grip comparability aspect plus the MLOK rail. But the heavier weight than I was expecting plus features being taken away (qd barrel) makes me question whether it’s worth grabbing one. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 3:17:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LMT for M4/AR platform Sig MCX for non M4 platform Lots of barrel options for calibers and lengths available for those two qd barrel platforms. Ehhhh, the MCX is a piston AR |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 4:44:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, they are dropping it. I really, truly do not understand the thought process that motivates pouring time/effort/money into making your own brand of rifle to just be an AR. If they want to make an AR, the plans are already out there, no R&D required. But I digress. They also said they no plans to offer the military version and those that want that “this isn’t the rifle for you” at this point I doubt I’ll buy anything else from IWI |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 6:19:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: they all ready offer an AR, not sure why they feel the need to make everything else they off an AR too. They literally took everything off this rifle that sets it apart. When I called IWI they told me they felt used didnt need or want QD bbls & gas settings. They said the “majority of IWI customers need rail space for lasers”…. They also said they no plans to offer the military version and those that want that “this isn’t the rifle for you” at this point I doubt I’ll buy anything else from IWI Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yup, they are dropping it. I really, truly do not understand the thought process that motivates pouring time/effort/money into making your own brand of rifle to just be an AR. If they want to make an AR, the plans are already out there, no R&D required. But I digress. They also said they no plans to offer the military version and those that want that “this isn’t the rifle for you” at this point I doubt I’ll buy anything else from IWI I tend to agree. However, to play devil's advocate and after having read all the little critiques and grips that people had about the ARX through the years such as, "It needs swappable pistol grips so you can use any AR grip you want." (The Carmel has this). "The stock needs a check riser." (The Carmel has this). "They need to slim down the handguard and get rid of that quick change barrel since it degrades accuracy anyways." (The Carmel has this). "Why no suppressed setting?! (The Carmel has this). "They need to get rid of the side rails and make a longer Mlok handguard." (The Carmel has this). "Why no QD sling swivel sockets?" (The Carmel has this). All in all, could the Americanized Carmel be the ARX critic's dream gun??? Kinda looks like it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 6:25:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, my apologies to @Master_Blaster "Most people aren't going to utilize the quick change barrel" was their reasoning for getting rid of it. What a stupid response. I love IWI's guns for their reliability, durability, and QC... but they need to stop "Americanizing" all their shit in the looks department. Most people are not going to use the retarded number of MLOK slots either, that didn’t stop them from adding them. I swear these IWI sales reps ate paint chips as children. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 7:37:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love my Sig 556. Shame I can't get parts for it. Parts are available second hand. It’s a matter of how much you’re willing to pay. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 8:41:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I tend to agree. However, to play devil's advocate and after having read all the little critiques and grips that people had about the ARX through the years such as, "It needs swappable pistol grips so you can use any AR grip you want." (The Carmel has this). "The stock needs a check riser." (The Carmel has this). "They need to slim down the handguard and get rid of that quick change barrel since it degrades accuracy anyways." (The Carmel has this). "Why no suppressed setting?! (The Carmel has this). "They need to get rid of the side rails and make a longer Mlok handguard." (The Carmel has this). "Why no QD sling swivel sockets?" (The Carmel has this). All in all, could the Americanized Carmel be the ARX critic's dream gun??? Kinda looks like it. Interesting I’ve never saw anyone complain about the ARX QD bbl saying it caused it to be inaccurate. The triggers yes, but not the QD bbl the only bbl complaint I heard were about the lack of ceramic insulator, the military version had. I never heard anyone complain about gas system either , I’ve only saw praise for it running extremely clean. To be fair I haven’t owned one for a few years so I never paid much attention to it after I sold both of mine. I will say this the QD bbl being able to switch to a SBR & easy cleaning was one of its best features just like the AUG.also the Carmel had multiple gas settings including a suppressor setting which was similar to the T7 IIRC. As for the AR grip. It’s the least irritating change they made but most guns that go with an AR grip usually end up with people trying to find a grip that matches the OG grip they removed in the 1st place (VHS/Hellion) comes to mind. Regardless I’m sure people will buy it (at least until the new gun appeal wears off) then it will be just like the multitudes of Gen2 ACE rifles and pistols barley selling for a little over 1/2 MSRP. Maybe by then the aftermarket might have corrected most of IWI’s mistakes and I can get one for $900 the way I want it. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 8:47:50 PM EDT
[#33]
I don’t understand the vitriol over the changes made to the US Carmel. The Israeli Carmel is so ugly. It looks like Tapco and Command Arms designed it. The US version looks good and sounds to have all the right features to be a great rifle. QC barrels are neat, but not needed on a rifle such as this. And if the QC design was a slip fit type, the rifle is better off without it.
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Posted: 1/19/2023 8:48:13 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Parts are available second hand. It’s a matter of how much you’re willing to pay. Fair enough, but still shitty.
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Posted: 1/19/2023 9:42:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t understand the vitriol over the changes made to the US Carmel. The Israeli Carmel is so ugly. It looks like Tapco and Command Arms designed it. The US version looks good and sounds to have all the right features to be a great rifle. QC barrels are neat, but not needed on a rifle such as this. And if the QC design was a slip fit type, the rifle is better off without it. Because many of us think the Israeli design looks much better than the 2x4 the US version has. It removed most of the features that set it apart and gained nothing but extra front end weight. The Bbl had a recessed locking level. I have a safe full of 556 rifles that this in its US configuration offers nothing above whereas the Israeli configuration offered a gas system with multiple adjustments, easy access QD bbl and it didn’t look like anything else being offered. |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 10:51:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because many of us think the Israeli design looks much better than the 2x4 the US version has. It removed most of the features that set it apart and gained nothing but extra front end weight. The Bbl had a recessed locking level. I have a safe full of 556 rifles that this in its US configuration offers nothing above whereas the Israeli configuration offered a gas system with multiple adjustments, easy access QD bbl and it didn’t look like anything else being offered. I mean you just described the Beretta ARX-100…. Just saying. I have one and love it. I got it when they were unloading them cheap and glad I did! |
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Posted: 1/19/2023 11:53:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting I’ve never saw anyone complain about the ARX QD bbl saying it caused it to be inaccurate. The triggers yes, but not the QD bbl the only bbl complaint I heard were about the lack of ceramic insulator, the military version had. I never heard anyone complain about gas system either , I’ve only saw praise for it running extremely clean. To be fair I haven’t owned one for a few years so I never paid much attention to it after I sold both of mine. I will say this the QD bbl being able to switch to a SBR & easy cleaning was one of its best features just like the AUG.also the Carmel had multiple gas settings including a suppressor setting which was similar to the T7 IIRC. As for the AR grip. It’s the least irritating change they made but most guns that go with an AR grip usually end up with people trying to find a grip that matches the OG grip they removed in the 1st place (VHS/Hellion) comes to mind. Regardless I’m sure people will buy it (at least until the new gun appeal wears off) then it will be just like the multitudes of Gen2 ACE rifles and pistols barley selling for a little over 1/2 MSRP. Maybe by then the aftermarket might have corrected most of IWI’s mistakes and I can get one for $900 the way I want it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I tend to agree. However, to play devil's advocate and after having read all the little critiques and grips that people had about the ARX through the years such as, "It needs swappable pistol grips so you can use any AR grip you want." (The Carmel has this). "The stock needs a check riser." (The Carmel has this). "They need to slim down the handguard and get rid of that quick change barrel since it degrades accuracy anyways." (The Carmel has this). "Why no suppressed setting?! (The Carmel has this). "They need to get rid of the side rails and make a longer Mlok handguard." (The Carmel has this). "Why no QD sling swivel sockets?" (The Carmel has this). All in all, could the Americanized Carmel be the ARX critic's dream gun??? Kinda looks like it. Interesting I’ve never saw anyone complain about the ARX QD bbl saying it caused it to be inaccurate. The triggers yes, but not the QD bbl the only bbl complaint I heard were about the lack of ceramic insulator, the military version had. I never heard anyone complain about gas system either , I’ve only saw praise for it running extremely clean. To be fair I haven’t owned one for a few years so I never paid much attention to it after I sold both of mine. I will say this the QD bbl being able to switch to a SBR & easy cleaning was one of its best features just like the AUG.also the Carmel had multiple gas settings including a suppressor setting which was similar to the T7 IIRC. As for the AR grip. It’s the least irritating change they made but most guns that go with an AR grip usually end up with people trying to find a grip that matches the OG grip they removed in the 1st place (VHS/Hellion) comes to mind. Regardless I’m sure people will buy it (at least until the new gun appeal wears off) then it will be just like the multitudes of Gen2 ACE rifles and pistols barley selling for a little over 1/2 MSRP. Maybe by then the aftermarket might have corrected most of IWI’s mistakes and I can get one for $900 the way I want it. It's at least assumed that the ARX's QD barrel is the reason it's not the most accurate rifle out there. The Shooting Sight 2 stage trigger helps a little, but either the barrel itself or the QD attachment method is what effects it most. The ARX also isn't a great suppressor host according to those that have tried suppressing it, unless if it's suppressed with an OSS suppressor, they seem to do well with those. The ARX only has 2 gas settings and neither of them are made for suppressor use. I love the ARX though and none of the complaints are mine... Well, I guess it wouldn't hurt if it were a bit more accurate and had QD sling sockets, but that's my only gripe about it. My biggest issue is that Beretta stopped supporting the dang thing. The ceramic insulter I believe to be a myth, or maybe something confused in translation. If any of the Italian military ARX's had something like that it was likely the models prior to the ARX-160A3 which the ARX-100 is based on. I know the military ARX barrels have a pinned on heat sink just forward of the barrel extension, but I believe it's steel. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 12:00:31 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because many of us think the Israeli design looks much better than the 2x4 the US version has. It removed most of the features that set it apart and gained nothing but extra front end weight. The Bbl had a recessed locking level. I have a safe full of 556 rifles that this in its US configuration offers nothing above whereas the Israeli configuration offered a gas system with multiple adjustments, easy access QD bbl and it didn’t look like anything else being offered. A locking lever with a slip fit barrel? That’s a recipe for poor precision/accuracy. Glad IWI passed on that. An lmt mrp type or m240 type barrel lockup would be awesome, but the latter would add too much weight and bulk. Why does a new rifle design need to offer something more? It’s different. And novel. It’s a neat addition to a personal reference collection, not a main line rifle. I have 5.56 rifles of all variety from many different countries. None really do anything better than a well set up quality AR15. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 1:51:26 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A locking lever with a slip fit barrel? That’s a recipe for poor precision/accuracy. Glad IWI passed on that. An lmt mrp type or m240 type barrel lockup would be awesome, but the latter would add too much weight and bulk. Why does a new rifle design need to offer something more? It’s different. And novel. It’s a neat addition to a personal reference collection, not a main line rifle. I have 5.56 rifles of all variety from many different countries. None really do anything better than a well set up quality AR15. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because many of us think the Israeli design looks much better than the 2x4 the US version has. It removed most of the features that set it apart and gained nothing but extra front end weight. The Bbl had a recessed locking level. I have a safe full of 556 rifles that this in its US configuration offers nothing above whereas the Israeli configuration offered a gas system with multiple adjustments, easy access QD bbl and it didn’t look like anything else being offered. A locking lever with a slip fit barrel? That’s a recipe for poor precision/accuracy. Glad IWI passed on that. An lmt mrp type or m240 type barrel lockup would be awesome, but the latter would add too much weight and bulk. Why does a new rifle design need to offer something more? It’s different. And novel. It’s a neat addition to a personal reference collection, not a main line rifle. I have 5.56 rifles of all variety from many different countries. None really do anything better than a well set up quality AR15. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 2:53:47 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A locking lever with a slip fit barrel? That’s a recipe for poor precision/accuracy. Glad IWI passed on that. An lmt mrp type or m240 type barrel lockup would be awesome, but the latter would add too much weight and bulk. Why does a new rifle design need to offer something more? It’s different. And novel. It’s a neat addition to a personal reference collection, not a main line rifle. I have 5.56 rifles of all variety from many different countries. None really do anything better than a well set up quality AR15. Not necessarily. A cam action can provide the same mechanical grip as a torx lock method, sans tool. And it was already implemented, but then they went the extra mile to remove it. I'm sure the longish HG contributes to the 8# weight figure. The ARX with its QD barrel scales in at 6.8#. But it's their call. I don't wish any ill will over it. I hope they sell out, but I suspect it's going to miss the mark. Appreciation for the ARX has lagged, but I've casually noted that there's been a growing appreciation for its capability & what it offers, & just IMO. The Carmel could've done similarly & perhaps garnered more appeal, though not sure now, but time will tell. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 3:03:54 AM EDT
[#41]
The appeal to me for a lot of these foreign guns is in getting a near-clone of what ends up being issued by a military. Minor changes for 922r or stretching a 14.5” barrel to 16” are just quirks of our laws and easy-ish to live with. But I want most of the other features, oddities, and warts that make a design unique, that make it authentic.
In this case, I think IWI went too far “Americanizing” the Carmel. It’s never going to supplant a mall-ninja AR. It’s the same thing that killed the Bren 2 in my eyes. IWI is so hit or miss these days on designs. Like all the Tavors mirror their military cousins very well. The Gen1 ACE guns were excellent clones of the versions being used internationally. But then we got the Americanized Gen2 ACE and now this. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 3:18:08 AM EDT
[#42]
My biggest concern with the design is the polymer folding stock hinge thats integral to the upper receiver.
If that hinge is somehow cracked or broken, I suspect the rifle will be unrepairable:  |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 3:19:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The appeal to me for a lot of these foreign guns is in getting a near-clone of what ends up being issued by a military. Minor changes for 922r or stretching a 14.5” barrel to 16” are just quirks of our laws and easy-ish to live with. But I want most of the other features, oddities, and warts that make a design unique, that make it authentic. In this case, I think IWI went too far “Americanizing” the Carmel. It’s never going to supplant a mall-ninja AR. It’s the same thing that killed the Bren 2 in my eyes. IWI is so hit or miss these days on designs. Like all the Tavors mirror their military cousins very well. The Gen1 ACE guns were excellent clones of the versions being used internationally. But then we got the Americanized Gen2 ACE and now this. That’s the same many people including me. You would think after the backlash on the ACE Gen 2 they would have listened but Gun companies like to do that for some reason.It’s always the same story.. Gun? company ….. what do you want. you reply…. this! I want this , just like the military version with all of its cool features! It amazing. Gun Company… ok here you go everything you asked for, except most of the features because you don’t need those….. and we changed the entire looks of it… BUT…. BUT We added this gigantic ?trendy mlok rail because people on IG eat this stuff up! You but I just want I asked for! Gun company.. no you don’t this is what you want so you can put all you lasers, lights , rangefinder , bi pods , cell phone, etc on! You…. but I just want the cool military like version I asked for.. I can change that stuff later if I want to. gun company…. You don’t know what you want, we do .. THIS is better so take or leave it! A few years later…. Gun company Why are sales tanking, why is nobody buying this gun they asked for ? After all the work to give them exactly what they wanted… You… ignoring said gun company, enjoying the firearm from a rival gun company actually listen and delivered. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 3:31:16 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My biggest concern with the design is the polymer folding stock hinge thats integral to the upper receiver. If that hinge is somehow cracked or broken, I suspect the rifle will be unrepairable: https://i.ibb.co/pJWDVF5/Screen-Shot-2023-01-18-at-10-51-26-PM.png It’s supposed to be like the X95. So the receiver is actually metal with a polymer shell that can be changed. 
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Posted: 1/20/2023 8:59:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: I don’t understand the vitriol over the changes made to the US Carmel. The Israeli Carmel is so ugly. It looks like Tapco and Command Arms designed it. The US version looks good and sounds to have all the right features to be a great rifle. QC barrels are neat, but not needed on a rifle such as this. And if the QC design was a slip fit type, the rifle is better off without it. I’m not sure about other people, but I want as close as realistically possible to the military version. If the US Carmel was what the military version looked like, I would buy one. I don’t care about ease of use, interchangeability, bad triggers, reciprocating charging handles, propriety magazines, etc. if the military versions has it, I want it. I care about authenticity above every single other aspect. That’s just me. I know others do care about those things and that’s fair, just want to give my reasoning for being so upset. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 10:20:31 AM EDT
[#46]
I sense a pattern.
  
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Posted: 1/20/2023 1:44:08 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryYou would think after the back lash they got on the “gen 2” ace they would have thought “maybe this isn’t the best direction” I think they really want to push their image as a race gun company or something. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 3:35:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryPretty much. All that is new and cool and different is getting killed by gun manufacturers thinking the American shooting public wants everything to be more AR like. |
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Posted: 1/20/2023 4:48:48 PM EDT
[#49]
I had a good conversation with IWI about the Carmel today to clear things up. They clarified a lot about the rifle. 1st it’s made completely in the US with the Israeli technical specs because the ABC agency will not allow imports of parts in the scale they needed. 2 the bbl’s original QD mount didn’t return to zero so they modified the mechanism allow a good return to zero and it unintentionally improved accuracy so they went with it. 3 the adverse gas setting on the Israeli gun pretty much turned it into a single shot so was not included with the normal & suppressor settings. They couldn’t import the Israeli handguard and they don’t have the capability to make it. The 2x4 is already set in stone for now so the only hope to get rid of the 2x4 is the aftermarket.
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Posted: 1/20/2023 6:23:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a good conversation with IWI about the Carmel today to clear things up. They clarified a lot about the rifle. 1st it’s made completely in the US with the Israeli technical specs because the ABC agency will not allow imports of parts in the scale they needed. 2 the bbl’s original QD mount didn’t return to zero so they modified the mechanism allow a good return to zero and it unintentionally improved accuracy so they went with it. 3 the adverse gas setting on the Israeli gun pretty much turned it into a single shot so was not included with the normal & suppressor settings. They couldn’t import the Israeli handguard and they don’t have the capability to make it. The 2x4 is already set in stone for now so the only hope to get rid of the 2x4 is the aftermarket. If they have the capability to make this rifle and turn them out, they have the capability to make the handguard. Even if they have to buy or pay for the capability. They have the money. They’d make the money back 10x. I’m as disappointed as I was with the Gen2 ACE. |
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