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Posted: 12/6/2022 12:01:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GoatBoy]
Did a little comparison between these two peq15 clones. I do have the SG potted UHP with green laser. It cost $260ish shipped. The IS is significantly more expensive at $780 shipped. That being said, I do think it’s probably worth it if you want something you can beat on a little more. My SG held zero doing slow courses of fire like zeroing the gun, but when getting out and doing drills/putting a few rounds through it pretty quickly I checked it and I was about a foot right at 50 yards.







The IS feels significantly better in the hand. It’s slightly heavier, the adjustments have audible and tactile clicks the lasers are near perfectly coaligned (just checking through eotech + magnifier at 270 yards) where the SG is slightly off. My SG has some play in the adjustments - basically if I adjust windage to the right, if I move left at all there’s nearly 1/4 turn before it catches and it jumps quite a bit.

Fit and finish also goes to the IS. The fire button is much better - it’s silent when pressed and feels significantly better. The clamping mechanism also feels higher quality. Comes with pattern generators as well. The stickers are incorrect, but that doesn’t really bother me.

As far as the output, I don’t think the IS has an 80mW Illuminator as claimed. It’s closer to the standard 35mW that a normal FP PEQ has. More than adequate output for most ranges. Easily makes it out 250+ yards and will do everything I need it to. At comparable widths, the output is nearly identical. I do think the IS is slightly brighter to the eye. I tried to capture the output between the two at different widths.

In each comparison, the Somogear is first. First back to back comparison is at midway in the adjustment.





Next is widest settings, the IS goes way wider. Not even a comparison, so I included a second clip at a comparable width immediately after.

Finally, at the end it’s the two at the most narrow settings.

Somogear vs InvisibleSight PEQ15s

VP
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 12:18:13 AM EDT
[#1]
I think I may have gotten an ideal example of the Somo cuz the vis and ir lasers are coaligned and a few hundred shots in there's been no wander on the zero. Which is admittedly not a lot of use (though most all in one night) but I'm impressed by even that for a 200 dollar "airsoft" laser.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 12:23:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By muricanwerewolf:
I think I may have gotten an ideal example of the Somo cuz the vis and ir lasers are coaligned and a few hundred shots in there's been no wander on the zero. Which is admittedly not a lot of use (though most all in one night) but I'm impressed by even that for a 200 dollar "airsoft" laser.
View Quote

If they were consistently that good it would be a winner for sure
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 12:42:34 AM EDT
[#3]
The IS laser took forever to get with not-so-great comms if I recall? It could have been a different member here.

For let's call it $800 that's still a steal assuming it truly works. Somo would make a killing if they made a few modest rugged-izing changes - they could double the price and I think most would happily pay it.

Lasers are one of the few things in firearms world where the price really irks me. This is not highly complicated hardware or software. Sorry, it's just not. The R&D costs need to be recouped, which I certainly understand. But the margins L3 is getting on a $1.6k Atpial must be enormous. The MAWL is fantastic and certainly worth some coin, but at well north of $3k it's hard not to feel like you're being taken for a ride.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 6:20:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 135Patriots:
The IS laser took forever to get with not-so-great comms if I recall? It could have been a different member here.

For let's call it $800 that's still a steal assuming it truly works. Somo would make a killing if they made a few modest rugged-izing changes - they could double the price and I think most would happily pay it.

Lasers are one of the few things in firearms world where the price really irks me. This is not highly complicated hardware or software. Sorry, it's just not. The R&D costs need to be recouped, which I certainly understand. But the margins L3 is getting on a $1.6k Atpial must be enormous. The MAWL is fantastic and certainly worth some coin, but at well north of $3k it's hard not to feel like you're being taken for a ride.
View Quote

He was pretty responsive to me. Usually replying within a couple hours even with the time difference. It took around a month total to get.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 8:28:22 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 135Patriots:

Lasers are one of the few things in firearms world where the price really irks me. This is not highly complicated hardware or software. Sorry, it's just not. The R&D costs need to be recouped, which I certainly understand. But the margins L3 is getting on a $1.6k Atpial must be enormous. The MAWL is fantastic and certainly worth some coin, but at well north of $3k it's hard not to feel like you're being taken for a ride.
View Quote


I work in the "sell stuff to .gov agencies" sector, first as an employee for someone else, and now as a business owner - the products I dealt/deal with, have a 5x markup. "We'll" never pay less than what it's on GSA for. You're not wrong.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 11:19:00 AM EDT
[#6]
At the price of the IS you're approaching what real PEQs sell for on the 2nd hand market
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 11:32:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Well let me say this about that.  Mick is certainly right; there is an outrageous mark-up on our stuff, whether you think that's valid, or not.  After working for an overseas company and seeing all that it takes to bring a product to market in the states, I can certainly sympathize.  But as a consumer, looking for the most bang for the buck, I can also see why peeps would be pissed off and buy imported goods.  

If you take the copying and all the flag waving out of it.   If this was another consumer product, such as a car, appliance, or electronics, not to mention clothing, furniture, or even the gas in your car, you don't give it a second (maybe even first) thought.  Why people make such a distinction in this case is pretty laughable at this point.  For those that were not paying attention (or choose to ignore), our manufacturing base moved overseas some time ago.  Did you make sure every other consumer good you purchased wasn't a copy of something else?  

But in this case we have a blue on blue (or should I say red on red).  One guy has a really good product but is spotty on CS.  One guy gets it right away, another like my buddy has waited since September and the guy is still making excuses.  Not sure why that is but I can guess a small one-man operation and all.  The other has QC issues, but excellent CS.  I have three of them and they are all different.  So place yer bets, right?

I think if SG started a "premium" line, and made a better copy, i.e., lower rate, better quality, higher cost, at say a 500 dollar price point, it would certainly sell.  Or, if IS found investors and expanded his capability, and perhaps lowered his cost, that would certainly sell as well.

Bottm line.  I would buy SG right now.  Then see what happens next year.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 1:17:40 PM EDT
[#8]
With due respect, this isn't some consumer good like a TV or even computer.  

Unless you're placing this laser on a .22LR or range plinking toy or airsoft training replica you're gambling big time on whether it's reliable or not.

I buy "American" for a whole host of reasons, but one of the big ones is QC and a lifetime experience having far better reliability with American made items over Asian manufactured ones. To me that's worth paying twice as much honestly for an item I'm going to possibly bet my life on and as far as I'm concerned anything that goes on a firearm purchased for defense fits that category.  

Hang in there, wait for the EOTech VCSEL folks, we should get more news on it at SHOT Show 2023, which is like less than a month away. If EOTech can meet their release date goals it will be out in March of 2023, just  over three months from now.  If you've got money to burn go spend it on other stuff in the meantime or save your coins for the EOTech.  Unless, you want a replica PEQ for a .22LR  or training airsoft replica then go for it.  

Link Posted: 12/6/2022 3:09:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AKoch31] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:
With due respect, this isn't some consumer good like a TV or even computer.  

Unless you're placing this laser on a .22LR or range plinking toy or airsoft training replica you're gambling big time on whether it's reliable or not.

I buy "American" for a whole host of reasons, but one of the big ones is QC and a lifetime experience having far better reliability with American made items over Asian manufactured ones. To me that's worth paying twice as much honestly for an item I'm going to possibly bet my life on and as far as I'm concerned anything that goes on a firearm purchased for defense fits that category. I say this as someone who has bought virtually every civ legal laser model short of the MAWL.

Hang in there, wait for the EOTech VCSEL folks, we should get more news on it at SHOT Show 2023, which is like less than a month away. If EOTech can meet their release date goals it will be out in March of 2023, just  over three months from now.  If you've got money to burn go spend it on other stuff in the meantime or save your coins for the EOTech.  Unless, you want a replica PEQ for a .22LR  or training airsoft replica then go for it.  

View Quote


That’s exactly what it is, actually. Very very few of us are using these on duty weapons. Even less of us will actually ever need NV in any kind of engagement. This IS a consumer product whether you like to think of it as such or not. I’ve seen plenty of “duty grade” lasers break. Lots of Steiner, a few PEQs (grey market and atpial C), hell just this weekend a MAWL had to be disassembled because it was stuck on vis laser only.

I’ve said it time and time again, don’t count on L3 releasing anything come SHOT. It’s vaporware until it’s available for purchase.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 3:11:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chase45:
At the price of the IS you're approaching what real PEQs sell for on the 2nd hand market
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If by approaching you mean “less than half”. You can maybe find an 07 manufacture PEQ for $1500 these days - but everything newer with a decent looking Illuminator is going for way more than that - generally $2000+
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 3:16:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Diz:
Well let me say this about that.  Mick is certainly right; there is an outrageous mark-up on our stuff, whether you think that's valid, or not.  After working for an overseas company and seeing all that it takes to bring a product to market in the states, I can certainly sympathize.  But as a consumer, looking for the most bang for the buck, I can also see why peeps would be pissed off and buy imported goods.  

If you take the copying and all the flag waving out of it.   If this was another consumer product, such as a car, appliance, or electronics, not to mention clothing, furniture, or even the gas in your car, you don't give it a second (maybe even first) thought.  Why people make such a distinction in this case is pretty laughable at this point.  For those that were not paying attention (or choose to ignore), our manufacturing base moved overseas some time ago.  Did you make sure every other consumer good you purchased wasn't a copy of something else?  

But in this case we have a blue on blue (or should I say red on red).  One guy has a really good product but is spotty on CS.  One guy gets it right away, another like my buddy has waited since September and the guy is still making excuses.  Not sure why that is but I can guess a small one-man operation and all.  The other has QC issues, but excellent CS.  I have three of them and they are all different.  So place yer bets, right?

I think if SG started a "premium" line, and made a better copy, i.e., lower rate, better quality, higher cost, at say a 500 dollar price point, it would certainly sell.  Or, if IS found investors and expanded his capability, and perhaps lowered his cost, that would certainly sell as well.

Bottm line.  I would buy SG right now.  Then see what happens next year.
View Quote


I’ve had two of the SG lasers now. One last year around this time and this one I grabbed about two months ago. The potted version is a step in the right direction, but it still feels cheap and the housing feels very weak. It’s hard to word it perfectly, but the IS does actually feel like a quality product in the hand. Im looking forward towards putting some rounds through the rifle and seeing how it holds up.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 7:32:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2JokersWild] [#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:
With due respect, this isn't some consumer good like a TV or even computer.  

Unless you're placing this laser on a .22LR or range plinking toy or airsoft training replica you're gambling big time on whether it's reliable or not.

I buy "American" for a whole host of reasons, but one of the big ones is QC and a lifetime experience having far better reliability with American made items over Asian manufactured ones. To me that's worth paying twice as much honestly for an item I'm going to possibly bet my life on and as far as I'm concerned anything that goes on a firearm purchased for defense fits that category.  

Hang in there, wait for the EOTech VCSEL folks, we should get more news on it at SHOT Show 2023, which is like less than a month away. If EOTech can meet their release date goals it will be out in March of 2023, just  over three months from now.  If you've got money to burn go spend it on other stuff in the meantime or save your coins for the EOTech.  Unless, you want a replica PEQ for a .22LR  or training airsoft replica then go for it.  

View Quote
But it is a consumer good. The very large "elephant in the room" most dont want to admit.... Most of us are just LARPing. Now I admit, there are those tip of the spear boys who really are in harms way and I dont intend to take anything from them. But.... By and large the civilian market is dominated by.... Wait for it, its in the name....civilians.

Some are brutally honest about it and just call it out, "I want it". A lot of them are really good and doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their purchases in some fantasy scenario of having to stop the invading horde of Genghis Khan or fight aliens or literally the world had a solar flare and we've been set back 500 years or whatever else they can fantasize up but....

Most of us are, at the end of the day, just playing boy soldier. Its a hard fact to swallow sometimes.
Link Posted: 12/6/2022 10:27:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2JokersWild:
But it is a consumer good. The very large "elephant in the room" most dont want to admit.... Most of us are just LARPing. Now I admit, there are those tip of the spear boys who really are in harms way and I dont intend to take anything from them. But.... By and large the civilian market is dominated by.... Wait for it, its in the name....civilians.

Some are brutally honest about it and just call it out, "I want it". A lot of them are really good and doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their purchases in some fantasy scenario of having to stop the invading horde of Genghis Khan or fight aliens or literally the world world had a solar flare and we've been set back 500 years or whatever else they can fantasize up but....

Most of us are, at the end of the day, just playing boy soldier. Its a hard fact to swallow sometimes.
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100% this. Would this be my first choice to take into the sandbox? Nah. Is it going to hold up to recoil on my 5.56 rifle that’s shooting paper or steel - maybe a pig or coyote? I have no doubt. It also allows me to see 250+ yards out where most civilian units here won’t. It’s under half the price of an atpial C and performs better.
Link Posted: 12/7/2022 10:29:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Well yeah this IS truly the elephant in the room.  As much as I'd like to think I'm still an active duty type, you know, once a marine, always a marine, and all that, the fact is I'm an old man that still enjoys doing this stuff, "LARPing" in the current parlance.  While I occasionally help out in training active duty and guard types, I mostly fart around on my own.  

As to the "estimate of the situation" well, that indeed is open to interpretation.  Some see storm clouds rapidly forming on the horizon, some not so much. Me, I take a middle ground, in that if something happens, I will try and be ready, but if it doesn't, I just enjoy the training anyways, so doesn't matter in that regard.

And I don't mean to argue with anyone here, that is not my intent; I enjoy our conversations here, and am not purposely trying to wind anybody up.

But I do think, for me, this is a consumer good, just like my car, my appliances, my electronics, basically everything we use these days.  Twenty or thirty years ago, I would agree, and would attempt to buy all American.  But today, guys like me, and I think a lot of you here too, are truly on our own; we didn't abandon our government; our government abandoned us.  So I feel no obligation in that regard.

Link Posted: 12/7/2022 11:00:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Diz:
Well yeah this IS truly the elephant in the room.  As much as I'd like to think I'm still an active duty type, you know, once a marine, always a marine, and all that, the fact is I'm an old man that still enjoys doing this stuff, "LARPing" in the current parlance.  While I occasionally help out in training active duty and guard types, I mostly fart around on my own.  

As to the "estimate of the situation" well, that indeed is open to interpretation.  Some see storm clouds rapidly forming on the horizon, some not so much. Me, I take a middle ground, in that if something happens, I will try and be ready, but if it doesn't, I just enjoy the training anyways, so doesn't matter in that regard.

And I don't mean to argue with anyone here, that is not my intent; I enjoy our conversations here, and am not purposely trying to wind anybody up.

But I do think, for me, this is a consumer good, just like my car, my appliances, my electronics, basically everything we use these days.  Twenty or thirty years ago, I would agree, and would attempt to buy all American.  But today, guys like me, and I think a lot of you here too, are truly on our own; we didn't abandon our government; our government abandoned us.  So I feel no obligation in that regard.

View Quote


That's my thought too. If I could get a quality full strength laser here, I would. But we're not worthy.
Link Posted: 12/7/2022 11:07:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mickdonaldson] [#16]
Better to kill a Chinese invader with their own gear, than not - because you couldn't afford it
Link Posted: 12/7/2022 2:03:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Well ranger, you jest, but it's fucking spot on.  If we can learn anything from our SF brethren, it's the Indian, not the bow.  They can pick up virtually any weapon or piece of equipment and do the job with it.  So for sure, killl a commie with an AK, there's just a poetic justice to it.
Link Posted: 12/7/2022 2:58:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 2JokersWild:
But it is a consumer good. The very large "elephant in the room" most dont want to admit.... Most of us are just LARPing. Now I admit, there are those tip of the spear boys who really are in harms way and I dont intend to take anything from them. But.... By and large the civilian market is dominated by.... Wait for it, its in the name....civilians.

Some are brutally honest about it and just call it out, "I want it". A lot of them are really good and doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify their purchases in some fantasy scenario of having to stop the invading horde of Genghis Khan or fight aliens or literally the world had a solar flare and we've been set back 500 years or whatever else they can fantasize up but....

Most of us are, at the end of the day, just playing boy soldier. Its a hard fact to swallow sometimes.
View Quote


I disagree with you my friend and I appeal to your reason to ask that you reconsider your position regarding the appropriate role of a male U.S. citizen.

The "preamble" that is an expression of the underlying intent of the Second of the Amendment is that "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." and it is a settled matter of law as per District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, that "The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense."  With rights come responsibilities and with this civil liberty to bear arms comes a civic duty to safeguard the security of our free state.  The distinction between civilian and military is irrelevant regarding this civic duty as it applies to all male citizens physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.  That's not mental gymnastics, but a simple reading of the Second Amendment and understanding of civic virtue.  

You or I cannot see into the future, but we can as citizens recognize our civil liberties and civic duties. You are important to the security of this nation, civilian or not, and you stand as a man that others will turn to if necessary to act in concert with for our common defense.  That is why you and I have the civil liberty to bear arms and the civic duty to protect our free state.  Don't sell yourself short, don't dismiss your role in our society, you are a citizen and as such are one of our nation's most valuable assets in defense of liberty.

For the above reasons, I do believe it is vital that we take seriously our training, equipment, arms, and yes that includes laser aiming devices. I believe the subcontracting of duties and the diminishing of the importance of the free citizen and their role in the protection of liberty is the surest path to either tyranny or anarchy.   I urge you not to follow that path, not to diminish your importance, and if you're posting here on AR15.com my guess and hope is that deep down you do not. God bless.





Link Posted: 12/8/2022 10:39:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Brother I hear you, and this is how I grew up and proudly served my country.  But we have been over-taken by events.  Civic virtue is all but disappeared, and the 2d amendment has been so abridged that it has been effectively repealed in many states and locales.  This is not the same country as I grew up in.  If you stand tall, as you suggest, you are likely to be quickly suppressed as an extremist, while your neighbors all look on.  You only need to look back to Jan 6 to see what I mean.  Those folks are being held as virtual political prisoners as we speak.  

If you do anything at all, I would suggest you do it at a grass roots level, amongst friends and neighbors.  Your own "tribe" as it were.  We can still be very effective at this level.  You can quietly organize and train at a local level, participating in a hobby that just happens to have practical uses.  Roughly the equivalent of the matches the Swiss used to have as an annual citizen training event.  

I would submit that your civic virtue is all but wasted on nation-state that has turned it's back on it's roots, and no longer values a person like yourself.  You'd be much better off using it to protect a local group of like-minded individuals, not a bunch of people who hate the very things you stand for.

Please do not view this as a criticism of your views.  It is not.  It is merely my opinion of the present state of affairs.  You would be welcome at my campfire anytime.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 12:11:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident:
With due respect, this isn't some consumer good like a TV or even computer.  

Unless you're placing this laser on a .22LR or range plinking toy or airsoft training replica you're gambling big time on whether it's reliable or not.

I buy "American" for a whole host of reasons, but one of the big ones is QC and a lifetime experience having far better reliability with American made items over Asian manufactured ones. To me that's worth paying twice as much honestly for an item I'm going to possibly bet my life on and as far as I'm concerned anything that goes on a firearm purchased for defense fits that category.  

Hang in there, wait for the EOTech VCSEL folks, we should get more news on it at SHOT Show 2023, which is like less than a month away. If EOTech can meet their release date goals it will be out in March of 2023, just  over three months from now.  If you've got money to burn go spend it on other stuff in the meantime or save your coins for the EOTech.  Unless, you want a replica PEQ for a .22LR  or training airsoft replica then go for it.  

View Quote

Why? So they can over promise and under deliver? Also word on the street is it’s around 1500 - 1600 now. Probably gonna cost more than that too.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 3:22:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

Why? So they can over promise and under deliver? Also word on the street is it’s around 1500 - 1600 now. Probably gonna cost more than that too.
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So...it would be about the price of a D2? You don't think a smaller laser with better switchology at the D2's price point is worth it?

That's even assuming that's accurate, seeing as you're citing a rumor.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 3:35:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By muricanwerewolf:


So...it would be about the price of a D2? You don't think a smaller laser with better switchology at the D2's price point is worth it?

That's even assuming that's accurate, seeing as you're citing a rumor.
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I don’t think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that’s got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 4:00:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I don’t think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that’s got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
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I have real full power peqs, they are absolutely not worth the cost from a technology standpoint in 2022. Ive seen the internals of a real peq with my own eyes and there is nothing in there making it difficult to copy edge to edge. From a manufacturing standpoint someone just has to step in and do it, which I believe IS is doing (trying to do at least). I agree big time, the D2 is a joke for the price, like the atpial c. Hell even the MAWL doesnt make sense from a price perspective based on the manufacturing costs/etc. I deal with shit like this in my line of work and its all markup.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 5:09:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I don’t think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that’s got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
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I'm happy to see cheaper LAMs come onto the market, but unfortunately the cheap ones right now you're gonna have to make some allowances for either subpar power (holosun) or sketchy QC/international businesses (IS, somo). The pricing is tough to stomach especially for FDA compliant lasers but there's something to be said for having an aiming device you don't have to worry about destroying with a hard knock, which is something I'm not too confident about the Somogear, it just feels chincy.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 6:24:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Diz:
Brother I hear you, and this is how I grew up and proudly served my country.  But we have been over-taken by events.  Civic virtue is all but disappeared, and the 2d amendment has been so abridged that it has been effectively repealed in many states and locales.  This is not the same country as I grew up in.  If you stand tall, as you suggest, you are likely to be quickly suppressed as an extremist, while your neighbors all look on.  You only need to look back to Jan 6 to see what I mean.  Those folks are being held as virtual political prisoners as we speak.  

If you do anything at all, I would suggest you do it at a grass roots level, amongst friends and neighbors.  Your own "tribe" as it were.  We can still be very effective at this level.  You can quietly organize and train at a local level, participating in a hobby that just happens to have practical uses.  Roughly the equivalent of the matches the Swiss used to have as an annual citizen training event.  

I would submit that your civic virtue is all but wasted on nation-state that has turned it's back on it's roots, and no longer values a person like yourself.  You'd be much better off using it to protect a local group of like-minded individuals, not a bunch of people who hate the very things you stand for.

Please do not view this as a criticism of your views.  It is not.  It is merely my opinion of the present state of affairs.  You would be welcome at my campfire anytime.
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This man gets it. But, let me sum it up in a more direct statement.

The country we want to believe in? Its dead. Gone. A distant memory. Stop pretending Old Glory is alive and well. It deserves neither our respect nor our blood, only our indifference. It pains me to say it as much as it pains you to read it, but that is where we are today.

Look around. Our country just released one of the worlds worst arms dealer for a fucking basketball player, while snubbing its nose to the imprisoned Marine. Is that what you want to defend and lay your life down for? Fergetaboutit.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 6:26:52 PM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I don't think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that's got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
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Oh, link to that? You know, just last night I was wondering about the feasibility of 3d printing something like a MAWL.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 7:53:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ghostface] [#27]
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I don’t think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that’s got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:
Originally Posted By muricanwerewolf:


So...it would be about the price of a D2? You don't think a smaller laser with better switchology at the D2's price point is worth it?

That's even assuming that's accurate, seeing as you're citing a rumor.

I don’t think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that’s got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.



The IS may out perform the D2 in power but what is still a question mark on the IS is it’s ability to hold a zero, water proofing and durability. The D2 is proven in that regard so at this point I would only consider these clones to be toys and put on nothing more than a .22LR. Or if you’re confident a 5.56 range toy but if you go that way I have to question is it really worth the price if you are limited on what you can use it for? I have D2 on an AR-10 and it does what I expect it to, no questions asked. I have an OTAL on another AR-10 (sent back 2 days ago I think went past the windage stop) and it done as expected. I bought a G&P dbal clone a while back just to see if a clone could be a viable alternative to Steiner. The G&P is certainly more powerful but I really don’t think the extra power is needed all that much. It’s nice to have but it isn’t a must for me. While I haven’t really had the time to play with it a lot I’m not optimistic about putting on anything for duty.  Now since this clone has a very limited application I think I would have been better served by using that money towards another OTAL  but since I have it and so far it seems to work it will be limited to a range toy at night, I won’t even trust it for hunting.

Again to say this toy clone out performs any of the Steiners is misleading, IS maybe more powerful but that’s where anything that has been proven about these clones stop. I don’t know about y’all power is nice but it isn’t the be all, end all. Durability and accuracy (adjustments) is what is most important to me. Plus my D2 lasers can go out a damn far ways and cuts through some urban light pretty decently.

The steiners have worked for me over the years in urban /rural patrol and at the time SWAT duties. I really hope one day a decent FP LAM can be had at a decent price but what’s out there now doesn’t seem to be what we (ME) want.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 10:46:28 PM EDT
[#28]
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Originally Posted By Ghostface:



The IS may out perform the D2 in power but what is still a question mark on the IS is it’s ability to hold a zero, water proofing and durability. The D2 is proven in that regard so at this point I would only consider these clones to be toys and put on nothing more than a .22LR. Or if you’re confident a 5.56 range toy but if you go that way I have to question is it really worth the price if you are limited on what you can use it for? I have D2 on an AR-10 and it does what I expect it to, no questions asked. I have an OTAL on another AR-10 (sent back 2 days ago I think went past the windage stop) and it done as expected. I bought a G&P dbal clone a while back just to see if a clone could be a viable alternative to Steiner. The G&P is certainly more powerful but I really don’t think the extra power is needed all that much. It’s nice to have but it isn’t a must for me. While I haven’t really had the time to play with it a lot I’m not optimistic about putting on anything for duty.  Now since this clone has a very limited application I think I would have been better served by using that money towards another OTAL  but since I have it and so far it seems to work it will be limited to a range toy at night, I won’t even trust it for hunting.

Again to say this toy clone out performs any of the Steiners is misleading, IS maybe more powerful but that’s where anything that has been proven about these clones stop. I don’t know about y’all power is nice but it isn’t the be all, end all. Durability and accuracy (adjustments) is what is most important to me. Plus my D2 lasers can go out a damn far ways and cuts through some urban light pretty decently.

The steiners have worked for me over the years in urban /rural patrol and at the time SWAT duties. I really hope one day a decent FP LAM can be had at a decent price but what’s out there now doesn’t seem to be what we (ME) want.
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I can only speak to my experience with the somo as I’ve never owned an IS. However, the IS has been around for many years now. At least 10. It’s been funny to me watching them come into the limelight on arfcom.

Now to my somo. I think I’m finally over 1k rounds with it living its entire life on a suppressed mk18. It’s how been through everything from backyard plinking all the way up through multiple night quals at my PD. So far so good, it’s holding up. It’s been dropped and sling around the back of an explorer for a few months too. And it’s been rained on.

I’m also a realist and realize this is a serving size of one. However, there are many others that have reported great success with them. The fact stands, it works. It’s gaining market share. And it gets better over the months because it seems like every time someone orders one something has been tweaked on it. I welcome this to the market. With open arms. For $300~ performance that beats a D2 I’ll take it.

I also realize that my opinions are entirely subjective. You are free to keep using what you use. I am by Jo means trying to convince you to sell everything and get a somo. I don’t believe that to be a wise decision.

But this is definitely more than a .22 plinker. Hands down.
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 10:56:46 PM EDT
[#29]
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Originally Posted By 2JokersWild:
Oh, link to that? You know, just last night I was wondering about the feasibility of 3d printing something like a MAWL.
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3D Printed PEQ // How to Make an IR Laser
Link Posted: 12/8/2022 11:55:04 PM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nZ8PMRBJ9I
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Damnit. I didn’t need another project.

Link Posted: 12/9/2022 1:42:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Magsz18] [#31]
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Originally Posted By 100roundclipazine:


I have real full power peqs, they are absolutely not worth the cost from a technology standpoint in 2022. Ive seen the internals of a real peq with my own eyes and there is nothing in there making it difficult to copy edge to edge. From a manufacturing standpoint someone just has to step in and do it, which I believe IS is doing (trying to do at least). I agree big time, the D2 is a joke for the price, like the atpial c. Hell even the MAWL doesnt make sense from a price perspective based on the manufacturing costs/etc. I deal with shit like this in my line of work and its all markup.
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You guys are intensely critical.  Arguably unfairly so to some extent.

The D2 is not a joke.  It is a fully featured MFAL that works quite well.  I have two that have thousands of rounds on them.  Are they perfect?  No, they're not.  Are they the pinnacle of technology?  Absolutely not.  In fact, compared to something like a MAWL, they're crude.  Perhaps i've been lucky in that my units haven't failed.  They've held zero and have been banged around and minus some salt, some chips in the metal bodies etc they're holding up just fine.  Again, sample size of two.  I've certainly read about the shortcomings regarding plug ports popping out and cold weather performance.

Do they work?  Absolutely they do.  I think we need to remember that the D2 design at this point is what, ten plus years old?  That's insanely old in the technology world.  It's also insanely old in the firearms world where there is a new widget that does the same thing every five minutes.  We have about sixty two thousand ejection port cover options and only two of them really offer anything over the other options, ie quick attach.

The D2 at 1200 bucks isn't bad considering the market.  Do I believe that the D2 is a "good" deal at 1200 dollars?  Absolutely not.  Is it the "best" deal that we have right now?  Absolutely, it is.  As with everything in the NV world, you have to pay to play and until there are more options, we are at the mercy of the manufacturer.  Competition, ie capitalism breeds price wars.  As does demand versus supply.  What exactly in the last ten years has come out that has challenged the market?  The fact that there are maniacs that are willing to pay 3500+ for a MAWL or a RAID XE means that future entrants into this space will probably be priced on the high end because consumers WILL pay.  If consumers weren't willing to pay, the price of the MAWL wouldn't have increased something like four times since 2020.  This issue is further compounded by the fact that the D2 does everything that ANY civilian would EVER want yet people still pay THREE times the price to larp around with their MAWL's.  More power to them.

The other issue that we run into is the fact that the vast majority of these units are developed to win military/le contracts.  Due to the fact that government money pays for these things, there is no way that they're EVER going to be priced fairly.  The manufacturer prices these the way that they do because the .mil and LEO agencies are more than happy to fork over thousands of dollars for these things without even batting an eyelash.  Please don't try and tell me that the manufacturers have to pay for their development costs etc.  While that is true, its pure greed that drives the pricing (one could argue capitalism and i'm somewhat OK with that with the caveat being, our government doesn't give a shit about capitalism).  There is nothing special about a VCSEL diode.  There is nothing expensive about it either.  Yes, I know i'm simplifying this but i'm sure many people here get what i'm saying.  This is where the IS and Somogear units come in.  Somogear is lacking because they can't really get their QC or design down pat.  They're still producing a 260 dollar unit that could eventually be a legitimate option.  IS seems to be able to produce a unit at about 40% of the cost of a real PEQ15 and I would hazard a guess it's probably about 90% of what a real PEQ15 is.  That's pretty darned good for a one man show.

Until someone specifically develops a unit for the civilian world with features that civilians (and LEO as well as mil) want, there is never going to be any progress here.  Pricing will stay stagnant and we will be stuck with outdated products.

I think that if someone could come out with a VCSEL unit that is durable and features an adjustable, switchable illuminator at say, a thousand bucks, they would absolutely capture the entire civilian market.  Or, at the very least 99% of the serious users who want to shoot their guns rather than look pretty on the 'gram.  As it stands, if the Eotech unit is half of what they promise and comes in at 1300, i'm in for several.  I have access to full power units too.

Ultimately, its a complex issue.  We are clamoring for units and the manufacturers who are stepping up know this.  As a result, they're offering products on the higher end of the pricing spectrum.  Until we say no and we stop buying over priced units, nothing will change.  Right now, with almost no options, they have us by the walls.

Here's to hoping the future is bright. (har).

Link Posted: 12/9/2022 3:30:19 AM EDT
[#32]
If the Eotech unit delivers performance thats even in the ballpark of a mawl or raid xe (and I emphasize ballpark) for <$1.5k I'll buy it in a heartbeat. I'll probably buy two for good measure.

Color me skeptical on the price, and its solely because they probably know they can charge more. The market bears $1.6k atpials that are simply not good. Imagine an Aimpoint or Eotech that was just flat out not daytime bright. Or a Kreiger barrel that grouped 4 moa. That's what we get with traditional civvy LAMs and it's extremely frustrating. I don't own a Somo and don't love the blatant IP theft but absolutely don't judge anyone who goes that route. These companies are laughing at us charging what they do for such poor performance. Imo what IS and Somo are doing simply pulls back the curtain on what it relatively simple, uncomplicated tech that is priced obnoxiously.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 3:42:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial] [#33]
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Originally Posted By 2JokersWild:
Oh, link to that? You know, just last night I was wondering about the feasibility of 3d printing something like a MAWL.
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Originally Posted By 2JokersWild:
Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I don't think a D2 is worth the cost either. The IS outperforms it. The handful of LAM makers have the market in a choke hold for something that's got such an insane markup on it. A prime example is a guy on YouTube that 3D printed a FP lam THAT WORKED. These other companies need to come down back to reality. Otherwise somo and IS are going to continue to gain popularity.
Oh, link to that? You know, just last night I was wondering about the feasibility of 3d printing something like a MAWL.

My MFAL is 3D printed and I love it…

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Link Posted: 12/9/2022 3:56:21 AM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Brother I hear you, and this is how I grew up and proudly served my country.  But we have been over-taken by events.  Civic virtue is all but disappeared, and the 2d amendment has been so abridged that it has been effectively repealed in many states and locales.  This is not the same country as I grew up in.  If you stand tall, as you suggest, you are likely to be quickly suppressed as an extremist, while your neighbors all look on.  You only need to look back to Jan 6 to see what I mean.  Those folks are being held as virtual political prisoners as we speak.  

If you do anything at all, I would suggest you do it at a grass roots level, amongst friends and neighbors.  Your own "tribe" as it were.  We can still be very effective at this level.  You can quietly organize and train at a local level, participating in a hobby that just happens to have practical uses.  Roughly the equivalent of the matches the Swiss used to have as an annual citizen training event.  

I would submit that your civic virtue is all but wasted on nation-state that has turned it's back on it's roots, and no longer values a person like yourself.  You'd be much better off using it to protect a local group of like-minded individuals, not a bunch of people who hate the very things you stand for.

Please do not view this as a criticism of your views.  It is not.  It is merely my opinion of the present state of affairs.  You would be welcome at my campfire anytime.
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Amen.

I'd like to subscribe to your news letter
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 10:54:45 AM EDT
[#35]
As much as I agree and like discussing the actual cost to produce things, I do realize that this *is* the USA, and that's how our system works.... and until recently, give or take, it works well. If there were zero options, it may be a different story, but the above mentioned system allows us to obtain different options. The astronomical price defenders just need to come to terms with the fact that a 100% markup is like the minimum for a lot of this stuff, LOL.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 10:58:01 AM EDT
[#36]
Well as pertains to function vs pricing.  Some still view these Chinese clones as toys, others see them as viable alternatives, with many somewhere in between.  And this goes to intended use.  Another big fucking elephant in the room.  I think a lot of people are preparing for hard times but for whatever reason are afraid to admit it.  So we dance around the issue with a lot of talk about hunting, hobby-shooting and what-not.  While there may be a few amongst us that are active duty military, LE, whatever, the vast majority of us are not.  So if we are all "LARPing" here, then why are we insisting on having "mil-spec" gear?  Is it necessity or just ego-driven?  We are bombarded by all the marketing with the cool guy in the arm sleeves, hefting the latest hotness, and want to be "one of the boys".  Would a Chinese clone actually work just fine for the vast majority of users?

On the other hand, if you do see hard times coming, then how does NV as a whole fit into your preps?  This has been said many times as well.  There are many critical items that need to be procured before even delving into NV.  So the budget gets a vote as well.  That thousand dollars plus could be put to use in a lot of different ways, with probably more return on investment.  Then there is your estimate of the situation.  And how likely is it that you might need NV capability.  These things could also push you towards a Chinese clone LAM.  

I don't know if I'm using this term correctly, but if you have a "wholistic" approach, that is, viewing a LAM or NV in general, as a small part of the overall scheme of things, then perhaps a Chinese clone may check the box for you, and move on.

The other thing for me is this difference in approach, between us and the Russians.  We seem to build all our shit like it's gonna have to last forever, be the best for our troops, etc.  While the Russians view all this stuff (including the dude carrying it) as expendable items.  They make things "goodinuff" and drive on.  The thinking being that a lot of this stuff is gonna get destroyed in use, so we'll just make more.  ComBloc weapons and equipment are oftentimes crude, and we love to mother-fuck them, but on the battlefield, it might be just goodinuff for that one-time use before you throw it away or it gets destroyed.  So there is that. If you are preparing for hard times, I'd rather have 5 PSA specials, with budget optics, and SG PEQ-15's, cached around an area, that could be discarded in a heart beat, than one Mk-18 clone that I would hesitate to part with.  Or OK I'll admit it, I'd have the Mk-18 clone at home and the others just in case.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 11:09:18 AM EDT
[#37]
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:

I can only speak to my experience with the somo as I’ve never owned an IS. However, the IS has been around for many years now. At least 10. It’s been funny to me watching them come into the limelight on arfcom.

Now to my somo. I think I’m finally over 1k rounds with it living its entire life on a suppressed mk18. It’s how been through everything from backyard plinking all the way up through multiple night quals at my PD. So far so good, it’s holding up. It’s been dropped and sling around the back of an explorer for a few months too. And it’s been rained on.

I’m also a realist and realize this is a serving size of one. However, there are many others that have reported great success with them. The fact stands, it works. It’s gaining market share. And it gets better over the months because it seems like every time someone orders one something has been tweaked on it. I welcome this to the market. With open arms. For $300~ performance that beats a D2 I’ll take it.

I also realize that my opinions are entirely subjective. You are free to keep using what you use. I am by Jo means trying to convince you to sell everything and get a somo. I don’t believe that to be a wise decision.

But this is definitely more than a .22 plinker. Hands down.
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Originally Posted By MustyWaffles:
Originally Posted By Ghostface:



The IS may out perform the D2 in power but what is still a question mark on the IS is it’s ability to hold a zero, water proofing and durability. The D2 is proven in that regard so at this point I would only consider these clones to be toys and put on nothing more than a .22LR. Or if you’re confident a 5.56 range toy but if you go that way I have to question is it really worth the price if you are limited on what you can use it for? I have D2 on an AR-10 and it does what I expect it to, no questions asked. I have an OTAL on another AR-10 (sent back 2 days ago I think went past the windage stop) and it done as expected. I bought a G&P dbal clone a while back just to see if a clone could be a viable alternative to Steiner. The G&P is certainly more powerful but I really don’t think the extra power is needed all that much. It’s nice to have but it isn’t a must for me. While I haven’t really had the time to play with it a lot I’m not optimistic about putting on anything for duty.  Now since this clone has a very limited application I think I would have been better served by using that money towards another OTAL  but since I have it and so far it seems to work it will be limited to a range toy at night, I won’t even trust it for hunting.

Again to say this toy clone out performs any of the Steiners is misleading, IS maybe more powerful but that’s where anything that has been proven about these clones stop. I don’t know about y’all power is nice but it isn’t the be all, end all. Durability and accuracy (adjustments) is what is most important to me. Plus my D2 lasers can go out a damn far ways and cuts through some urban light pretty decently.

The steiners have worked for me over the years in urban /rural patrol and at the time SWAT duties. I really hope one day a decent FP LAM can be had at a decent price but what’s out there now doesn’t seem to be what we (ME) want.

I can only speak to my experience with the somo as I’ve never owned an IS. However, the IS has been around for many years now. At least 10. It’s been funny to me watching them come into the limelight on arfcom.

Now to my somo. I think I’m finally over 1k rounds with it living its entire life on a suppressed mk18. It’s how been through everything from backyard plinking all the way up through multiple night quals at my PD. So far so good, it’s holding up. It’s been dropped and sling around the back of an explorer for a few months too. And it’s been rained on.

I’m also a realist and realize this is a serving size of one. However, there are many others that have reported great success with them. The fact stands, it works. It’s gaining market share. And it gets better over the months because it seems like every time someone orders one something has been tweaked on it. I welcome this to the market. With open arms. For $300~ performance that beats a D2 I’ll take it.

I also realize that my opinions are entirely subjective. You are free to keep using what you use. I am by Jo means trying to convince you to sell everything and get a somo. I don’t believe that to be a wise decision.

But this is definitely more than a .22 plinker. Hands down.





That’s good to know, like I said I really like to see a durable FP LAM  that I can trust. I’d like to put a LAM on all my serious rifles but at $1200 a unit that’s not doable on my income. Truth be told all I really NEED are two more and I could get by. I’d like to see someone run a somo on something bigger than a 5.56 for a while and report back. I might be tempted to put one on y bolt gun or move the D2 the bolt gun and the somo could go on one of the AR-10s.


Link Posted: 12/9/2022 11:13:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial] [#38]
VCSEL laser diodes can be had for <$20 and driver circuits are no different (complexity/cost wise) than LED driver circuits… so $10-20.  That’s for quality ones. China tier drivers and diodes that go out the back door without QC are all probably <$8ea.  The rest is machined metal or molded plastic.

No way should ANY of these LAMs and MFALs should cost what they’re charging, even in lower volumes.

They charge what they can because Uncle Sam is willing to pay legacy 1990 laser prices for modern lasers in 2022.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 11:35:43 AM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By Millennial:
VCSEL laser diodes can be had for <$20 and driver circuits are no different (complexity/cost wise) than LED driver circuits… so $10-20.  That’s for quality ones. China tier drivers and diodes that go out the back door without QC are all probably <$8ea.  The rest is machined metal or molded plastic.

No way should ANY of these LAMs and MFALs should cost what they’re charging, even in lower volumes.

They charge what they can because Uncle Sam is willing to pay legacy 1990 laser prices for modern lasers in 2022.
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So you my friend have made a business case for why you should find a way to bring a master to market, for the .mil and charge 50%.  You should kill it.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 12:13:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Vague] [#40]
Looking forward to the Eotech.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 2:27:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial] [#41]
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Originally Posted By Knoxp9090:


So you my friend have made a business case for why you should find a way to bring a master to market, for the .mil and charge 50%.  You should kill it.
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I already make my paycheck building lasers for Uncle Sam.

I have considered stuffing VCSEL illuminators and diode drivers into converted flashlight heads as a garage business and selling them for a couple hundred a pop… but my eccentric hobbies along with more kids eat ALL of my spare time.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 8:42:57 PM EDT
[#42]
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Originally Posted By Ghostface:





That’s good to know, like I said I really like to see a durable FP LAM  that I can trust. I’d like to put a LAM on all my serious rifles but at $1200 a unit that’s not doable on my income. Truth be told all I really NEED are two more and I could get by. I’d like to see someone run a somo on something bigger than a 5.56 for a while and report back. I might be tempted to put one on y bolt gun or move the D2 the bolt gun and the somo could go on one of the AR-10s.


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It’s worth getting one and giving it a try IMO. Especially if you have other lasers.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 10:19:39 PM EDT
[#43]
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Originally Posted By Millennial:

I already make my paycheck building lasers for Uncle Sam.

I have considered stuffing VCSEL illuminators and diode drivers into converted flashlight heads as a garage business and selling them for a couple hundred a pop… but my eccentric hobbies along with more kids eat ALL of my spare time.
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I’m awfully curious now. What’s the big hurdle for people starting up their own operations? If I could figure out how to make reliable zeroing adjustments I’d be all in.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 10:51:10 PM EDT
[#44]
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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger:

I’m awfully curious now. What’s the big hurdle for people starting up their own operations? If I could figure out how to make reliable zeroing adjustments I’d be all in.
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The same hurdle as starting any other business, time and money.
Link Posted: 12/9/2022 11:25:12 PM EDT
[#45]
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Originally Posted By ARK_Ginger:

I'm awfully curious now. What's the big hurdle for people starting up their own operations? If I could figure out how to make reliable zeroing adjustments I'd be all in.
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Massive, enormous barriers to entry unless you are only interested in the civvy conus marketplace. And if that's the case, all the challenges associated with starting a business in a very niche market. 99.95% of American consumers have no want or need for a LAM. Does that sound like an appetizing addressable market?
Link Posted: 12/10/2022 8:25:51 AM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By 135Patriots:
Massive, enormous barriers to entry unless you are only interested in the civvy conus marketplace. And if that's the case, all the challenges associated with starting a business in a very niche market. 99.95% of American consumers have no want or need for a LAM. Does that sound like an appetizing addressable market?
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Plus if the business is based here, it has to answer to the FDA.

To the OP, looks like the IS is a superior device, seems to be a better build, and crank more horsepower, correct? And both are performing like a full power PEQ, right?

Seems pretty neat. My doubts would lie in vampire drain, extreme condition performance, and long term durability.

I know a PEQ will survive for a while submerged in coolant/diesel/ATF/oil/seawater mix for some time. Pretty hot too. They’re also expected to function on a M240. I smacked one across the armory swinging a M16 like a baseball bat (held by the barrel), it survived. I wouldn’t expect anyone here to want to try any of that with their personal devices. But it is cool when you put your stuff in a -20* freezer, and can afford to run a case or two of ammo through it, as well as banging it around hunting and matches.
Link Posted: 12/10/2022 9:24:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Well I would submit that doing that isn't a good idea, nor a criteria for picking a good, serviceable LAM.  The only returns I ever get on my own products are from grunts who, well, are being grunts.  

In NORMAL use they seem to hold up just fine.  

On a related note, I used to build all my kit to be "bomb-proof", which made it unnecessarily heavy, with extra materials and expense.  After the G-WOT kicked off, we saw how the guys wanted to lighten up their kit, and so we changed our evil ways.

So the question is, do our electronics need to "bomb-proof" (or grunt-proof), or is weather and knock resistant good enough?  I guess each person must decide that for himself.
Link Posted: 12/10/2022 10:34:54 AM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By Diz:
Well I would submit that doing that isn't a good idea, nor a criteria for picking a good, serviceable LAM.  The only returns I ever get on my own products are from grunts who, well, are being grunts.  

In NORMAL use they seem to hold up just fine.  

On a related note, I used to build all my kit to be "bomb-proof", which made it unnecessarily heavy, with extra materials and expense.  After the G-WOT kicked off, we saw how the guys wanted to lighten up their kit, and so we changed our evil ways.

So the question is, do our electronics need to "bomb-proof" (or grunt-proof), or is weather and knock resistant good enough?  I guess each person must decide that for himself.
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I wasn’t particularly expecting the devices to survive, but they did. I don’t necessarily think they need to be “bomb proof”, but I’ll settle for “bullet resistant”. I think it should be able to survive repeated parachute jumps (shock plus general dings), at least 308 recoil, and be able to be submerged 1m for 30min at least, and ideally -40*-120* operating temps for a duty grade product. A consumer grade product at least needs to take riding around in a gun rack, getting dropped in mud/puddle, rain, and maybe -20*, for how much money we’re talking ($800+).

You say your products, what are those? What do you have a vested interest in, or are you simply an employee? I see you know your way around the topics discussed here.
Link Posted: 12/10/2022 11:03:59 AM EDT
[#49]
So for sure, the amount of durability is in the eye of the beholder.  I would settle for water and shock resistant, up to 5.56.  I don't jump or dive anymore so that's not an issue for me at this point.

I help design prototype kit for Crossfire Australia/USA, so I guess you could say I have a vested interest in it, but also I am an employee.  Before that I did custom kit for over 30+ years and was a parachute rigger.  Before that I was a grunt and helped tear the stuff up.  
Link Posted: 12/10/2022 11:15:09 AM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By FritzTKatt:

Plus if the business is based here, it has to answer to the FDA.

To the OP, looks like the IS is a superior device, seems to be a better build, and crank more horsepower, correct? And both are performing like a full power PEQ, right?

Seems pretty neat. My doubts would lie in vampire drain, extreme condition performance, and long term durability.

I know a PEQ will survive for a while submerged in coolant/diesel/ATF/oil/seawater mix for some time. Pretty hot too. They’re also expected to function on a M240. I smacked one across the armory swinging a M16 like a baseball bat (held by the barrel), it survived. I wouldn’t expect anyone here to want to try any of that with their personal devices. But it is cool when you put your stuff in a -20* freezer, and can afford to run a case or two of ammo through it, as well as banging it around hunting and matches.
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I would agree with that statement. It feels more solid. Even the potted SG feels hollow and fragile in comparison. The IS feels very damn close to the atpial c and peq15 in construction.
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