You'll have to let us know what you think of it out at the range! So far, it doesn't look like a bad buy for the price and the features on it. I notice that on a 4 power scope too, that the markings are hard to make out. i suppose it's because there's not alot of movement for angles and distance of a shot (like between 100 and 250 yds say).

Would you think that this would be a better buy than the burris xtr-14? i know with the burris - the bdc lights up too... i need to go look through some of these!

Are you referring to the Nikon 1.5-6?

as far as the lit reticle goes - doesn't the burris' reticle light up with the bdc part and the horseshoe?

That's actually because i was looking through a screen on a window... The scope is crystal clear outside...

its an actual screen door lol. not the scope.

4 minutes late.

Lol, ok, that makes sense then.  I've heard of some really lower quality glass exhibiting a screen door effect, so I thought it was worth mentioning.  I'd like to see some longer distance shots without a screen in the way, if it's not too much trouble?

Here are a couple... they are offhand, so they are a little sideways. :)  I'll get some more "action" shots later today and this weekend. Also, the kind of rainbow effect in the first picture is purely because of the angle I was holding the camera... When i can hold the camera with both hands and make manual adjustments I'll get some better quality pictures.

Here is a shot at 1x:
http://www.santsys.com/reviews/images/leatherwood-cmr/CMR-1x.jpg

Here is a shot at 4x:
http://www.santsys.com/reviews/images/leatherwood-cmr/CMR-4x.jpg


P.S. It's kind of a hazy day out, but most of the incorrect color is coming from bad lens angles between the camera and the scope.

santsys,
I just noticed you have this mounted atop a 15T. That is the same rifle I am looking to outfit with a 1-4x. What kind of groups are you getting with various 1-4x scopes and that rifle if you don't mind me asking? Have you shot it with any higher magnifications and got better results? I'm trying to decide what role I would like this rifle to play.
Thanks

Hey, you are correct, have it mounted on a 15T. So far i love the rifle, also been able to shoot some pretty good groups with it... It's been very predictable. With iron sights, it was good. But did some first shooting with the CMR on it, and it's pretty damn good.  Very consistent. I was pulling 1 to 1.5 MOA groups at about 75 yards @ 4x (not bench rest, but resting on a ledge). I am hoping to get to the range so i can do some bench rest shooting here later this week, but not sure if that is going to happen or not. But i went through the magnification ranges, obviously 4x is much nicer after about 75 yards, but anything closer then that, you can ramp it down, even 1x lets you stay pretty on target. That is more your eyes than anything. But even at 4x on close targets (25 yards) it works out just fine. I'm pretty confident that I'll be able to get 1 MOA groups at 100 yards at 4x without much trouble... I am shooting basic bulk Remington ammo, but it seems to be pretty consistent too. If i get the chance, i'll do some hand loads and really test out the accuracy, but so far, i have been nothing but impressed. I would buy another one of these in a heart beat (and I'm actually considering doing that).

The CMR turned out to work quite well, fired some shots at 4x then a few at about 2.5x from about 75 yards and the zero stayed true. Also, the locking turrets are nice, was able to lock in my vertical zero, and from there, you cant adjust down, but can adjust up, so your zeroing points stay good even when making smaller adjustments for wind and distance. I'm very happy with the scope, even with my allergies, I was able to see the dot and semi-circle on varying color targets, etc.

All of that being said, i am a guy that likes being close to the target, via some magnification. My other main setup is a Remington 700 with a 10x scope on it (generally for nothing closer than 100 yards). So a variable 1x-4x scope is perfect for something that i wont always use at close range, and gives acceptable magnification out to about 200 yards, after that, I would hope for a bit more. But it's still doable. So 1-4x is a great all around... I wouldn't recommend it for breaching doors in a house, get an EOTech or something like that for doing that stuff, but for most of the other stuff, i don't think i would go with anything else.

Quite happy with the whole setup. Though, as i add things, it's getting heavier and heavier... So that makes off hand shooting a little less stable, but that the price you pay for having fun gadgets on your picatinny rails. :)

Hope i didn't go too far off topic with all of that...

Thanks and not at all, the more info the better. I'm looking to shoot out to 300 with mine and I'd like to achieve 3" groups at least, was really hoping I could find a 1-4x to do that but I might have to step it up in the magnification department. I hear you about wanting another, I've had my eye on the 15VTAC

Santsys,
Thanks for your efforts on reviewing this scope
Im interested in how the scope is with acquiring a target fast in sunlight on 1x.? So far this seems to be the best bang for buck 1-4x.

double tap.

If you have the ability to, we would love to see a side by side pic with a DMS or something common to get a reference on its clearity.

So far it looks great, I want CMR!

edit: I hear that zombies like to wear red acorn shirts, green will contrast well!

Because of the thickness of the outer circle on the scope, fast acquiring of targets is pretty easy... It takes a little more to get pinpoint, the center dot is pretty small, but stays pretty visible.  I guess with any scope, if you come from a darker room, out into the light, it takes a second for your eyes to adjust to the reticle. But if you are staying outdoors, its not a problem at all.

Also, the 1x is pretty close to true 1x, so having both eyes open works out pretty well.

I'll add mine, Burris XTR 1-4x    Glass is very clear, pictures do not do it justice.  The scope is built very nice it tracks true.  The illumination is good for CQB use its close to 1.1 even though it says its a true 1x   I am very pleased for the price and the quality.  I did pick up the millett DMS-1 at the same time and put them side by side and imidiatley put the millet back in the box and returned it.  NO comparison to the glass quality.  (it is almost 3 x) as much so its not fair to compare, but that is my perspective.  Im going to pick up one of the new votex 1-4's and see how they perform

Pole is about 350 meters away.

1x



4x

Can you take some with the illumination on?

Yeah - sorry i was wrong about the illum. of the xtr, just the horseshoe and the dot are illuminated.

Very nice write up and pictures.  I currently have a DMS-1 that broke (the glass was crap from the start) and it needs to be replaced.  I've been looking at the Trijicon TR24, the Burris XTR 1-4x, and the Vortex Viper.  I'd get the TR24 in a heartbeat if it had a decent reticle with a BDC.  Because it deosn't I'm looking at other options.

<Off-topic posts removed - Z>

Im going to try the Vortex 1-4 and see how it compares to the XTR when they are out. I am very happy with my XTR  especially at its price point.  When its pretty bright out the illumination will wash out but for me that is not a factor, if you are using the scope for CQB on 1x you more than likely, you are operating in an indoor environment and its a non issue.   Hope this helps.

The glass is much clearer than my camera can show.

@Santsys...

Thanks for the review on the Leatherwood CMR. Looks like a great scope.

A quick question if you don't mind...With the mounts that you use, do you feel that a fastfire\docter red dot could be mounted behind the top adjustment knob?

Thanks,

Mike P

Hey Mike,

The Burris PEPR mount that i am using has rails on the top, but there is only about 1/2" to 3/4" between the top turret and the rails, and you would have to have something that has at least 1/2" lift to get it over the turret. If you had some rails that put the red dot off to the side or something like that, that would work better, but the turrets stick out about 1/2  inch so things would have to have pretty good clearance.

That being said, there is about 2" clearance between the turret and where the eyepiece of the scope start (over the back rail), so looking at the fastfire dimensions it think that it would fit... it would be close though, and it would make using the bullet drop turret pretty difficult and could also be real close to interfering with the magnification adjustment. If you put on some 1/4" or 1/2" rail raisers, then it would probably fit without much trouble... (and would definitely get it over the top of the turret).

Hope that helps, if some pictures would help, let me know.

––Josh

Hi Josh,

Perhaps a pic of the setup from the side??

I was hoping to set something up like this...



Hmmmmm...

Michael

The following Pitbull review was posted by falshooter762 here. I have condensed several posts into this one and somewhat redacted it because it has a blue million pics of targets that weren't particularly worthwhile.

post 1:
well, after owning a lot of optics i decided to go for the pitbull...thanks scott from liberty optics....i have owned acogs, which i loved untill my eyes told me i needed a focus adjustment..i had the burris,accupoint,us optics,not to mention aimpoint,eotech,etc...i think what i personally like in a optic is shortness,good glass,bullet drop markings,large field of view,sturdiness and i kinda like the horseshoe reticle concept.

i recently got a 3x ior for the fn fal. i was shooting it and my ar15 which at the time had a trijicon tr24 with the german #4 and green dot on it..when i bought that combo after getting rid of a TR24 with the amber triangle, i thought that would be it..but comparing the 3x ior then using the tr24, well, the ior's glass is just much better to me, and i much enjoyed that reticle over the #4..and another thing i noticed..i never use powers 2-3 on a variable scope, its either 1 or 4..so...without ever holding one in my hand..i contacted liberty optics and bought one

i sure hope i didn't fuck up

pics and impressions after a good workout with it

post 2:
finally made it to the range today..my impressions on the Pitbull:

if you have buis get the tall rings, i got the medium ones and they did not clear my troy buis, sent them back and ior had the tall ones to me in 2 days..no hassle,good customer service from both IOR and Liberty optics
i played around with it at home before getting the right rings and i was like...i guess its ok...once mounted with the right rings i was liking it more
at the range today i was loving it!!
the field of view is amazing, and unlike all the other magnified scopes ive had the placement of your head is very forgiving
you guys know what i mean..with a lot of scopes if your cheek weld is just a little off you can't see thru the damn thing..my old tr24 at the time i had it, had the most forgiving head placement issues, the pitbull is better..even though i bring the rifle up to the optimum position for myself there is quite a bit of wiggle room.
going from 1x to 4x is soooo easy, just a little yank on the lever and your there..mine moves very smooth and easy
i'm happy with the reticle..though i thought i would want a 1moa dot instead of a 3moa dot...but after doing some rapid fire with it i see the logic behind the bigger dot..it was so easy to pick it up
it does have bullet drop markings for 300yds and beyond..no 200yd mark so instead of zeroing it for 100yds, i did the 50 yd zero which put me on at 200yds...i'm not sure if the holdover lines will now work for 300,400,etc..since i didnt do a 100yd zero
the illumination does wash out in sunlight but i did notice that if i were aiming into a darker place or at a dark targer i could then see the red dot, and in full daylight i noticed no speed change in picking up the black dot

the pics that follow were taken with my cell phone, i tried my best to get some good reticle shots but failed
but it does give you a idea of the field of view
the ammo used was prvi 69gr, prvi m855 and lake city m855
my ar has a bcm stainless steel 1 in 8 twist barrel
mt rest that i used was a cheapo from the range...there was no back rest

my rig with the pitbull



on to the 100yd area
first up prvi 69gr


here are some views looking through the scope..big field of view

Yeah, that is what i figured... the CMRs top turret is pretty high, it should fit, but it will be pretty close. The spacing is pretty close to the dimensions of the fastfire. It will probably fit, but it will be close.

This is CS Tactical's review of the Elcan Specter DR. The full text with lots o' pics can be seen here on their website.

I was given the opportunity to borrow an Elcan SpecterDR with a reticle calibrated for the 5.56 NATO 62gr FMJ cartridge.  A model calibrated for 7.62 NATO 147gr FMJ is also available.

It uses an AA 1/3, CR-1 3N, DL 1/3N battery; common to the Aimpoint M2 and M3 models.  It’s also a common battery for dog shock collars.  For example, PetSafe’s RFA-188 battery is the same as a CR-1 3N battery only that it’s housed in a plastic button that twists in a collar unit.  I had a difficult time finding replacements, but your experience may differ.  On another note, don’t be too shy to screw on the battery cap by hand.  A lose battery cap will interrupt power to the red dot or reticle illumination.

Handling the Elcan SpecterDR for the first time, I noticed the weight.  There seems to be a consensus about the weight being out of the ordinary.  Weight with the ARMS Lever mount is 650g or 1.3 lbs.  It is a red dot sight with a magnifier in one unit, after all.

There are four methods for targeting:  1X magnification with a 6 MOA illuminated red dot, 4X magnification with an illuminated 1.5 MOA red dot, 4X magnification with an illuminated BDC reticle and iron sights located on top of the SpecterDR.

Illumination adjustment is made with a large turn knob on the left side of the unit; counter-clockwise for red dot illumination, clockwise for reticle illumination.  For red dot illumination, there are five settings.  The first two settings are for night vision.  If it’s dark enough, you might be able to see the 2nd setting.  On 3rd, 4th and 5th settings the red dot is crisp, distinct and bright.  As it is for the red dot, the first two settings for the reticle are for night vision.  The reticle on the brightest setting is very clear as well.

The lever on the left side allows the user to switch from 1X to 4X magnification.  For me, it is very easy to find, without any question if the lever is fully seated.  This can be confirmed tactility or visually through the scope.  One will also notice the reticle does not move with the rotation of the magnifier.  I found that even in 1X mode, the perceived image is marginally magnified.

The reticle features a BDC designed to be zeroed at 100 meters.  Marks have been made for the BDC at 300m, 400m, 500m and 600m.  The horizontal line at each mark represents 19” on the target at 4X magnification.  Looking through the optic on the left side, one will notice additional lines and marks – the VSOR or Vertical Subtention Optical Rangefinder.  Each hash line is calibrated from the primary horizontal line to measure 30” or 76cm at their respective distance.  I did not have the chance to try it out, but it’s a very cool feature.

At first glance, it appears to be a very durable optic with features that many look for in separate units such as EOTech or Trijicon.  The glass is clear, the reticle is not cluttered with information and magnification adjustment is fast.  With this optic; however, opinions and experience seem to vary.

There appears to be a love/hate relationship with the Elcan SpecterDr; the difference between the two extremes likely varies on their personal use of the optic.  Through research, those who have actually used a SpecterDR often had more positive comments than negative.  Individuals who claim that the SpecterDR has no purpose to justify its’ existence are likely those who are preaching the words of a few who indeed had a bad experience with early Elcan models.  There is a possibility that the degree of abuse their weapon and optic was taking is far more than any reasonable person would place on their lifeline – I believe there is a difference between rugged use of a weapon and neglect.  There’s also the difference between the casual use of civilian users and military personnel.

Reading around, most individuals were critical of the following:
-    ARMS mount with no after market option
-    Zero shifting
-    Cost

Though I’m only a casual shooter with no combat experience, I can at least relate my experience to those are just the same.  I don’t throw my rifle around, but I don’t necessarily baby them either.  At the range, I wanted to preliminarily address the ARMS mount and problems associated with it.

I played around with the SpecterDR and found that it’s a piece of equipment worthy of praise.  It was mounted on a Noveske N4 upper with a 14.5” barrel, pinned with an SEI Vortex flash hider.  In both 1X and 4X magnification, there was little variation in eye relief – if any.  Parallax appeared to be minimal at 1X and 4x.

Adjusting for elevation or windage ½ MoA is easy.  Windage is adjusted by using a coin or screw driver to adjust the screw on the left side.  Elevation is adjusted by unlocking the elevation dial below the main body of the optic, just above the ARMS mount.  Windage clicks are easy to determine; however, I found the tactile feel on the elevation dial were subtle.  After some minor adjustments I was zeroed at 100 yards with .223 Rem. Prvi 69gr BTHP.  I was consistently grouping with no apparent shift – granted it was only 200 rounds.  Surprised so far?  I doubt it.  The Elcan SpecterDR is an excellent optic setup and many individuals seem to agree.  I suppose the primary concern for some folks is the quality of the mount – an ARMS lever mount.

Depending where one looks, animosity for ARMS is very apparent.  ARMS has a reputation not favored by many as a result of broken mounts, law suits, contests, etc.

From what I’ve read, there has yet to be a substantial report of an ARMS mount failing on an Elcan SpecterDR.  Any other failure is usually related to the manufacture of the upper receiver since the ARMS mounts are designed for mil-spec picatinny rails.

The ARMS securely mounted on the Noveske N4 basic upper.  The levers can be secured down with a zip tie, but do not appear necessary.  Pulling the unit off and on did not require a tool either.  Granted, it took some work and my fingers are smaller than most.  On few occasions, I used a spent casing to release the levers, but nothing that required a screwdriver or hammer.

I removed and mounted the unit at least 25 times.  18 of those times I shot five rounds at one 1” Shoot n’ See target.  I removed and mounted the unit in the same spot after each group, looking for zero shift.  Pictured are my final nine strings – only because the first nine were embarrassing (haha).  I was shooting prone with the rifle rested on a bag.  My non-dominant hand was positioned under the stock to maintain rifle elevation.  Nothing fancy.

Looking at the target, I’m under the impression that the Elcan SpecterDR traveled little – if at all.  The target likely displays my shooting capability more than the scopes’ ability to maintain zero.

ARMS mounts do not necessarily have the best reputation.  I will not argue that alternatives do not exist in the market, but these mounts aren’t bad.  There are horror stories associated with ARMS mounts in general, but I have yet to see, or hear convincing evidence that the ARMS mount on the Elcan SpecterDR is an issue.  Perhaps one must mount the optic several hundred times to notice a zero shift?  For the general public, I doubt many will experience this problem.  Below is a video provided by Mike Cecil of CS Tactical.

For others, it comes down to price and it’s absolutely understandable.  It will depend on the intended use and practicality.  Is it necessary to have a red dot and 4x magnification?  Perhaps either a red dot or magnifier isn’t necessary – but not both.   Spending $550 – $1200 is much more appealing than $1700 – $2100 for an Elcan SpecterDr.  Two units to act as one SpecterDR is an option, like an EOTech holographic sight with a L3 magnifier.  Another possibility would be an Aimpoint CompM2 Red Dot with a 3XMag.  Either option is less expensive than one Elcan SpecterDR unit.  It absolutely varies on what is necessary and isn’t.  Personally, I wouldn’t want to deal with the clutter and feel absolutely confident than an Elcan SpecterDR will meet my needs.  I argue that the additional money is worthwhile to maintain the K.I.S.S. doctrine.  Then again, I’m not an operator – I can’t argue against “experience” that has found the Elcan SpecterDR unreliable.  As mentioned earlier, a love/hate opinion for this optic does exist.  It’s absolutely up to you to determine if the Elcan SpecterDR will meet your needs.

I must reiterate though, it’s likely you won’t be disappointed spending hard earned cash in an Elcan SpecterDR.  The optic is superb: bright and clean.  Controls are placed ergonomically and it’s simply rugged!

The following review of the Elcan DR was posted by cowboy_bravo here on snipers hide. It includes a very detailed description of the nature and magnitude of the zero shift associated with moving from 1-4x using the unique system that the Elcan employs.

Been working with the SCAR 16S and the ELCAN for a few weeks now. I am still formulating an opinion on both but this is what I can report from the past few weeks.

1. The SCAR is far from being an "out of the box ready to fight rifle". To be more eronomic and user friendly it needs some mods and tinkering with lights, slings and optics. More on this at a later date.

2. All auto rifles need extra effort to be driven accurately. The SCAR is no different... Actually I feel as though I need to work a bit harder when it comes to making a precise shot. I am comparing this to any other of my ARs used in the same situation(s).

3. The ELCAN may be "The One" when it comes to battle optics. The price tag is hard to deal with but the end result rocks.

4. One growing pain that needs to be understood with the ELCAN. For those of you who do not know, the ELCAN has a 1 or 4 power option. Just a flick of a lever takes you to 1 or 4 power. The ELCAN is sighted in on 4 power at a recommended 100 yards.

What I did the past two days was engage multiple targets from 7 to 200 yards in no particular order. I was missing a lot on 1X so I went back to prone and paper to sort things out. I printed two targets, one shot on 1 power and the other on 4 power. I quickly realized that 1 power really doesn't have a solid zero. I repeated this process several times on various targets mostly with 5 round groups. I ended up with the following example to show what I had learned.

Here are the targets...


The target on the left was shot on 4 power, from prone, 3 shots at 100, 75, 50, 25 and 7 yards.

The target on the right was shot on 1 power from the prone in the same manner as above.

On 1 power I have the following deviations:
100 yards- 3.5 inches high and 3.5 inches right
75 yards- 2.75 inches high and 1.25 inches right
50 yards .375 inches high and 1.25 inches right
25 yards 1.5 inches low and .5 inches right
7 yards Acceptable for mechanical offset and .5 inches right

I used the 4 power setting as my standard and found all the deviations predictable. Note that the 100 yard group is a little low. It was a little difficult determining a proper center hold (the dot in the reticle is 1.5 MOA on 4 power and 6 MOA on 1 power).

What I find interesting is deviation continues even at 25 yards. At first glance it seems the 1X falls into the mechanical offset and is slightly right of center. Though when I measured it the 4x 25 yard group was 2 3/16 inches low and the 1x 25 yard group was 1.5 inches low.

I don't consider this a black mark on the optic but it is a characteristic that should be mentioned in detail in the manual. Though as long as the shooter is with in 100 yards and only worried about minute of chest accuracy if firing on 1X I don't see a major problem, just know what your system is going to do.

More to come on the SCAR and ELCAN....

Very happy with my TR24G:



I don't have experience with BDC reticles so I sighted mine in with an MPBR of 300m with bullet trajectory of +/- 4.2', the height of the TR24G's triangle at 4x at 100yds.
At 500 yards, putting half of a triangle's height between the target and the bottom of the triangle will get the correct elevation.
I'm most interested in 0-300m so really studying the trajectory is only necessary for much longer shots or very small targets. The maximum ordinate is at 175yds so putting the point of the triangle at the top of the adam's apple should land the bullet right in the kisser. At 175, triangle point on the lips = round between the eyes. At 300m, triangle point between the eyes = bullet in the lips.
As far as chest shots go, from 0-300m = hold between the nipples, fire, rinse and repeat until satisfied.

Thanks,
Lee

thanks

I wonder how this will compare with the Vortex PST?

Another quick bit of information... The other weekend I went out and did some shooting with a few friends... Between the three of us, we had a good mix of scopes. The Leatherwood CMR, Trijicon TR24 and a EOTech (i think it was a 512).

After getting a little fire time with each of them, i have to say, it was a good time if nothing else. It was fun shooting at 100 yds with an EOTech.

First off, the Leatherwood CMR:
It was pretty easy to get right in and shoot with the CMR, it works pretty much just like any scope should... However i did notice, when trying to search for a smaller target in rough and varying color terrain, i had some trouble keeping the reticle clear and not having to double check what was going on. I think some of that has to do with the lighting that i was in (lots of tree cover with bright patches). I was hoping that the illumination was just a bit more visible, would have made things a bit smoother. Also, shooting off hand, and for fast recovery, i think the scope could use a little more eye relief, and it's pretty picky about eye position (not much play with right/left position), especially compared to the TR24. With all of that being said, having the bullet drop indicators and hold off indicators was fun and useful at times, but again, at times it was harder to see them then was practical. At closer range things seemed to be a bit smoother, but at 100+ yds, I was wishing I had something better suited for it. But it definitely got the job done and was a lot of fun. For the $$, i cant complain too much.

Trijicon TR24 (green triangle reticle):
First off, damn! The glass is super clear. Noticeably clearer then the CMR and had a much better eye relief and was much less picky with eye position. In the area that we were at, moving through tree cover, it gave an me an interesting perspective. At times, shooting at smaller targets, when i moved into a spot of bright sunlight from partially blocked light, the brightness of the reticle almost hurt my eyes and seemed to wash the target out a bit. I must say though, you can, without a doubt see the reticle without any trouble in any light that i tried. I dont particularly like the triangle reticle, but am much less opposed to it than i was before i got to actually use it. All-in-all, i really liked the scope.

EOTech:
This was my first time ever using anything like the EOTech. It took me a bit to get used to using it. and at first i was a bit put-off by it. But, after a magazine or so, if I'm doing a lot of moving and shooting at anything, it's probably what i would pick as my sight of choice. My suggestion, if you haven't had the chance to use one actually attached to a rifle and got to fire a few rounds down range. You should find someone that has one and try it out. Its a new perspective. But beware, you will probably want one after it.

So if i knew then what I know now... If I felt like spending $600+ on a scope, i would have gone with TR24 or something similar. But for $250, the CMR is a good scope that will get the job done and for me offers a bit more flexability than the EOTech. I think I'll stand by that for the time being. But, I'll probably be on the hunt for a good deal on an EOTech to add to my options. Also, if that SS 1-4x ever comes out, I'll probably get one of those to try out. I have a 10x on one of my rifles, and its been great!

Hope someone finds that all remotely interesting. :)

––Josh

Time for some updates;

First off thank you santsys for the Leatherwood review it was informative. The last post comparing it to the Trijicon and eotech was particularly helpful.

Now for some status updates.
The S&B's and Premier Reticles' 1-8x scopes have been delayed until at least August. S&B told me theirs has been delayed because they are tweaking the design. The prototype at Shot Show was not a final design and they are not yet satisfied. I believe the situation with Premier has more to do with how busy they are fulfilling shipments of their existing sniper line of scopes. Premier is a much smaller shop and I think they are just a bit overwhelmed with demand at the moment. This brings us to the Vortex scopes. I spoke recently with Mark and they are still at least 2 weeks out. I got the sense they are currently shipping in some quantity but that the quantity is not sufficient to meet their current obligations. I don't think we have long to wait on these, though. For those of you on the waiting list for the GRSC 1-4x scopes, I spoke with Ed last week and the first 100 should be sitting on the dock in LA waiting for customs as I write this. The 1-6x GRSC designs are still in development:  no dates on those. Also, no change on the Meopta tactical K dot; it will be at least mid June before I get one to review.

Lastly, I will be adding another section to my scope reviews. I have been looking for a way to do some testing of the scopes tracking without burning through lots of expensive hand loaded match rounds. I kicked around the idea of retrofitting my Anschutz with a Picatinny rail for this purpose. The Anschutz shoots remarkable groups, but once you add the rail height to the already high 1.5" Larue mounts, the cheek weld is awful. Since 1-4x scopes have no parallax adjustment, this could be disastrous. I than came upon the idea of using my recently re-barreled Spike's .22lr AR upper. Since it has been upgraded to the Lothar Walther, it shoots much better:  not like the Anschutz, but probably good enough. Coupled with one of my lowers with the adjustable cheek piece I designed, it fits the bill. I will be using this rifle to shoot a box test and a power switch test for each scope I review, including the ones I have already reviewed but still posses. These tests should determine whether or not the adjustments are true, independent, accurate, and repeatable. Below is an example of each test performed with my Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x scope. In the near future I will be updating my CQ/T review. I shot those targets today. I will also be updating my GRSC review. That scope is currently being passed around between a couple of friends to play with. I'll shoot those targets as soon as I get the scope back.

In the first target you will see a simple box test. For those of you not familiar with it, the principle of a box test is to zero the scope and shoot the first group. For the second group, you move your adjustments a specified distance to the right, but you still aim at the original point. For the next group, you move the adjustments the same distance down, but again shoot at the original aim point. You then adjust back left to shoot and finally back up for the final group. The result should be a square box on the target with the last group on top of the first. This test will determine not only if your scope properly returns to zero but also if it's adjustments (right/left and up/down) operate independently of each other (i.e. adjusting left does not also adjust slightly down or up). I also used this test to asses whether the adjustments were moving the point of aim the amount that they claimed to be (i.e. 1/4 MOA adjustments move the point of aim 1/4 MOA and not 3/8 or some other amount). The target below was fired using my Zeiss set at 14x. The point of aim for all groups is marked. The box test was performed such that each group should maintain the same placement relative to the four boxes on the target provided the adjustments are true.



In analysis of this target you will first note that group sizes are such that resolving any errors under 1/2 MOA or even 1 MOA is not going to happen. I suppose that factoring in the limitations of most folks' rifles and the ammunition they use, that is probably well enough. For my part, it kinda leaves me longing for the Anschutz or my AR with hand loads, but this is going to have to be the solution so I'm going to have to live with it. I would like to point out on this particular target that the upper left group of 10 shots representing the first and final five shot groups appears very spread. This group gives the illusion that perhaps the scope did not return to the original zero after completing the box. That is not the case. Shots from the first and last group are evenly spread across this messy group. I noticed no significant difference in point of impact for the two groups. The Zeiss did appear to return to zero. That being said, I did not find the Zeiss to display the correct magnitude of vertical adjustment. You will note the bottom two groups appear higher than expected. It is my judgment that the vertical clicks on this scope are, in practice, less than the 1/4 MOA they claim to be. This could be a big problem if you were using those adjustments for a long range sniper shot, as you would under compensate for drop. The adjustments appear to me to be operating independently with up/down not effecting right/left and vice versa.

The second target for each scope will be a power adjustment target. Below is the one for the Zeiss. The group in proximity to each of the upper two boxes represents a group fired at one of the two power extremes of the scope. No changes are made to the scope's adjustments when firing these groups. Each group is fired using the upper left corner of the respective boxes as the point of aim. A properly performing scope should show the same relative position of the center of each group to its target box. A scope whose point of impact shifts when the power is changed will show a corresponding shift in the group relative to the aim point.



You will note on the power test target of the Zeiss the impact point shifted when the power was changed. It appears that at 4.5x the Zeiss shoots up and left of where it shoots at 14x by perhaps 1 MOA (remember the target is a 50 yd target.) This is not a huge shift, but it is a shift to be noted.

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Got one of the Leatherwood CMR 1-4 scopes from Midwayusa.com... arrived on Friday.  I had to run out of town, but got it mounted before leaving.  I noticed there is ghosting of the horseshoe, both while illuminated and not illuminated.  It's like a 50% opaque copy of the horseshoe is halo'd above the actual horseshoe.  Anyone ever seen this issue with the CMR before?

I'll post pictures Monday night when I have access to a working camera.

I borrowed & edited a picture from Page 10, it looks something like this:
(The red represents where the ghosting is seen.  If you move your head from side to side, it moves slightly)



Edit: After some more experimentation - Ive found that the halo goes away on 4x magnification.  It is seen on 1x magnification.  I don't see it on my Meopta K-dot 1-4x22, or any of my other optics... Looks like I'll be sending it back to Midway for a replacement.

Edit 2: Midway USA has informed me they are back-ordered.  To use the one I have, and they will replace it up to 90 days.  I sighted it in, and am very pleased with the accuracy and clarity.

-John

I had to go take a look after seeing this...

I'm not sure if ghosting is the right term, but on mine, I get a little ghosting on the left and right side of the horseshoe when i have the brightness set to the higher settings and I'm in low light. The ghosting seems to fade away and is not noticeable when there is more light or if i turn down the brightness. Using the power setting 3 or 4 in a dark room seems to work.

I will say that i can see the same type of thing on the TR24 when in direct sunlight... Just over powered by the brightness of the reticle.

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This has been one of the most informative threads I've read.

Bottom line, which scopes are considered the best 1.5-6 in the $200.00-$400.00 range.
I know it's a dumb question but there's just so much info. here, it's tough to decide.
Just looking for some experience
After 12 pages my eyes are bugging out.

Thanks

tough call, given the Vortex isn't out and evaluated yet.  That is probably going to be the perfect scope for a close fit to your needs.   But!  After reading this thread, and shooting my DMS-1 several hundred rounds now, including switching it back and forth on my midlength, and my LR-308, I'm saving for the Burris(more than your 400 limit), evaluated in this thread.    That is not to say the DMS has done anything wrong so far, but I can see some some limitations in the quality of the glass.    Mine will eventually find a home on top of my 10/22 tactial carbine.

The good thing about the DMS is that it does fit your buget number, and today it held zero three different times switching it between the .308 and the 5.56.    The 5.56 groups held under 1" at 100yrds off the bench.   The LaRue SPR-E mount was a bit loose on the DPMS upper so the groups were not as good on the .308, but each time I went back to the middy, it was right where I left it  

Does anybody have any updates on the Viper?  I love that reticle and would like to really compare the Vortex and Burris (since those have my attention).  I don't know how important it is to everybody else, but a "forever" or "vip unlimited lifetime" warranty says a lot when not a lot of other companies offer that IMO.

I really like the reticle on the Burris 1-4, I'm not so sure what reticle the DMS has.
Checking that out now.
Yup, that would do too.
I've read so many reviews I'm driving myself crazy.
It seems that the DMS has a mixed bag of positive -negative.
The Burris has nothing but good reviews.
Too bad they don't make a 1-6 yet, that would be perfect.

Maybe I'll just flip a coin, but I feel with the Burris I'd be getting a much nicer scope.

Thanks for the help.
Money is also an issue.
Being retired/disabled and not being able to generate more income, other than selling stuff on CL, is also a main point for me.

I know I sound confused.
That's because I am.
Wish I could afford one of each and there isn't any place I know that stocks these in the Atlanta area.

I got some thinkin' to do.

Thanks again.


One other question..
Would a magnifier work with either of these if you need to get to 8-12 power, using a 2 or 3 magnifier?

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Not enough eye releif for magnifier + scope.

I was all set on the Vortex, but now they claim even most of the pre-order folks won't get any of the first go-round.

Just got a CMR from Midway.

I still am undecided if I like it over my DSM - both are nice for the price. I'm already leaning towards the CMR.

I initially thought the reticule was hard to pick up, but after a few minutes with it on my duty AR-15, I conclude that's merely a training issue. I'm LOVIN' the flat tire reticule. It DOES wash out in bright daylight, just like the DSM, however. In low light, I'm beginning to like it better than the DSM. Green seems to be liked better by my aging eyes.

I noticed that the DSM & CMR have EXACTLY the same battery cover, and similar fit & finish - I hypothesize that they're made at the same factory (factories?).

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Me too, but I may just say screw it and get the Burris.
I'm putting it on my Colt HBAR Match Target Competition.
I'll just be using it for close to mid range targets, and want a quality scope, without going broke.
There's just way too many choices.
I guess we need to just make a commitment and order it.

For long range I use my SA M14 NM with a Springfield 6X24X56 scope.
Talk about a nice shooter.

On my M4, I just use my old Tasco Pro Point Red Dot.
Picked up at Fort Benning about 20 years ago, and it still works great.

I just can't get myself to part with $500.00 plus.

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