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NY, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2006 10:24:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Neither, it was a parting gift received after Molon's extra terrestrial encounter; he doesn't like to talk about it much, and since then he's vowed never to have a colonoscopy. 
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OH, USA
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Posted: 11/19/2006 1:22:08 PM EDT
[#2]
I didn't get one on my alien encounter, all I got was a wife
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Posted: 11/20/2006 12:05:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#3]
 The Wind Probe was created by, and is produced by Gene Beggs of bench-rest competition notoriety. I purchased mine directly from him. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/20/2006 2:07:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Yep, that's the spot, lane #13, where I took my LWRC piston conversion to when I got it back in order to sight in my Accupoint. I just don't know how you can deal with the a$$hole DNR range officers. One guy tried to give me a safety lecture about how unsafe it was to dial in scope adjustment with a round in the chamber and safety off between rounds. He wanted me to unload the rifle in order to make adjustment.  I kindly thanked him, held out my right index finger, pointed to my brain and said this is the ultimate safety, (wiggled my index finger) and this is all the back up that's required.  He seemed stumped stupid on that one as I thanked him again for his advice, and then he walked off. |
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Posted: 11/20/2006 3:22:44 PM EDT
[#5]
should of been on safe. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/20/2006 4:18:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Not when your dialing in 1 or 2 clicks but then again it seems some people believe Mangina is a good thing as well as the pacification of society.
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Posted: 11/21/2006 1:38:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Here is a graph showing the trajectories of 75 grain TAP FPD and 75 grain 5.56 TAP when fired from a 16" barrel using an Aimpont sight in an A.R.M.S. mount.
height of sight above bore = 2.8" muzzle velocity of TAP FPD = 2528 fps muzzle velocity of 5.56 TAP = 2713 fps  |
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Posted: 11/21/2006 4:05:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Molon,
Can you plug 75 grain .223 TAP (Red Box) into this graph? I'd like to see the difference between the 5.56 and .223 flavors. TIA GL |
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Posted: 11/21/2006 7:57:31 PM EDT
[#9]
I may be wrong, but I think the red one on the graph IS the 223-75 gr FPD load.
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Posted: 11/21/2006 8:03:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: goloud]
[#10]
I was under the impression that the .223 FPD load was the black box/nickle plated version, not the TAP red box brass-cased .223? From the thread, the two .223 loads have different cases and charges. Anyone
 ETA: Does the red-box TAP have the extruded or ball powder? |
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Posted: 11/21/2006 8:18:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: goloud]
[#11]
I pulled a round from a red box .223 brass-cased TAP (Lot 80265) from a shipment from about a month ago. It has the extruded powder. I would guess that the only difference are the cases and T1/T2. So the graph is the comparison I was looking for. Thanks. ETA: T1 vs T2 |
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Posted: 11/22/2006 12:29:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#12]
goloud,
It sounds like you are referring to the 75 grain BTHP TAP PRECISION load which is a SAAMI pressure load and is basically the same as the TAP FPD load without the black nickel cases.  The TAP FPD load uses the same projectile as the 75 grain TAP Precision load (not the T2 bullet ) and both loads are loaded to approximately the same muzzle velocity using extruded power. Consequently, they both have the same trajectory. Also, the number 80265 is the catalog number, not the lot number. The lot number can be found at the bottom of the label. Molon |
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Posted: 11/22/2006 10:54:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#14]
It looks like they just dropped the "Precision" nomenclature for the box label. Odd that the load is no longer listed in their on-line catalog. When it warms up in the spring I'll have to get a hold of some for chronographing, but with it still having the same catalog number as the 75 grain TAP Precision load I imagine the velocities are still going to be similar. |
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Posted: 11/22/2006 12:35:10 PM EDT
[#15]
I'll send you some now if you want to play with it. Just let me know. |
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Posted: 11/22/2006 4:01:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Thank you for the very gracious offer. Set a box aside and if I can't find any in the spring I'll take you up on your offer. Molon |
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Posted: 11/23/2006 11:54:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#17]
Here are a few pics from the latest production lot of 5.56 TAP that I have. Note the primer pocket sealant.
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Posted: 11/26/2006 6:23:14 AM EDT
[#18]
AGREED  as I said in the chest My SHTF mags are loaded with M193 since the 80`s but have change to Black Hills 75gr Last year and I use MK262 as Back up until I get the NATO 75gr pressure loads |
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Posted: 11/27/2006 6:32:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Here's a graph of the trajectories of 5.56 TAP and TAP FPD fired from a 14.5" M4 barrel using an Aimpoint sight.
5.56 TAP muzzle velocity: 2627 fps TAP FPD muzzle velocity: 2450 fps  |
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Posted: 11/27/2006 6:53:44 PM EDT
[#20]
I found some interesting charts in a police publication.
Thought I'd share:     
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Posted: 11/30/2006 10:35:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Wow. I just finished reading this entire thing. My eyes are bleeding. But very informative. Thank you very much for your time and effort sir. It is very much appreciated.
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Posted: 12/1/2006 5:12:10 PM EDT
[#22]
You're welcome. I'm glad you found the information useful. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/5/2006 2:35:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hunterwarrior]
[#23]
Molon
Reading your posts with much interest. Much appreciated. What is your bore cleaning regimen while testing? Thanks HW |
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Posted: 12/6/2006 11:57:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Barrels are cleaned prior to the beginning of testing each new load. A few fouling rounds are fired and testing begins. No other cleaning is done during the testing of a particular load. High Power shooters can fire more than 80 rounds over a course of fire with no time for cleaning in between strings and the most critical shots (from 600 yards) are fired at the end of the course of fire. I can easily go through 150+ rounds in a single practice session. I personally have no use for a barrel/load that can only fire 5-10 shots before accuracy degrades and the barrel needs cleaning. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/7/2006 7:13:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hunterwarrior]
[#25]
That was the answer I was hoping for.
I agree. Thanks HW |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 12/11/2006 10:44:22 AM EDT
[#26]
Molon for President!
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Posted: 12/11/2006 12:44:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Old Painless for president with Molon as vice president; that's the ticket!
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PA, USA
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Posted: 12/23/2006 2:46:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Great post Molon, answered many of my questions about the Hornady bullets. One question I do have, and I may have missed it while taking in all the info, since the ballistics of the .223 75g BTHP and the .223 75g TAP seem to almost mirror each other do you think it's safe to say that minus the black case and the cannelured bullet that the two are an almost identical round? I noticed that you used the bthp match bullet in your reloading recipe for your TAP copy and it seems quite similar to the Hornady version. Since the TAP seems to run about $4 bucks more a box of 20 than the 75g BTHP would one still be getting about the same performance self defense wise. I have several hunred rounds of each but from a financial standpoint it would be cheaper to stock up the on the later.-Since you seem to be pretty up on the subject and I trust your judgement I thought I'd ask-Thanks
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Posted: 12/24/2006 1:31:19 PM EDT
[#29]
That has been my observation. That and the fact that the BTHP Match load actually runs the tiniest bit faster than the TAP FPD load with the lots that I've chronographed. (Bigbore posted chrono data for these two different loads in one of his threads with similar findings.) While the BTHP Match load does not use a cannelured bullet there is a slight taper crimp used at the case mouth. I've never had an issue with set-back with the BTHP Match load. (I've also never been in a car accident, but I still carry auto insurance. ) |
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Posted: 12/24/2006 6:15:44 PM EDT
[#30]
I've been shooting alot of the "match" 75Gn Hornady. Its very accurate IME and has been completely reliable in the 3 or four rifles i have used it in. I got a bunch of it from Botach of all places for $2.80 a box when they had an ammo closeout a few years back. Even at around $11.00 a box is significantly cheaper than TAP FPD. |
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Posted: 12/24/2006 6:20:56 PM EDT
[#31]
jesus, best botach deal/experience I have ever heard. Congrats on that! I think I'd have bought all they had as well at the very moment I learned about that, then drive down there to pick it up to make damn certain I got every last box that I ordered. |
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Posted: 12/24/2006 6:26:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AR15fan]
[#32]
I did. I raced over to Staples, faxed my DL and ammo statement then called them and told them i wanted all of it. Ended up being over 4300 rounds. First 5-rnd group at 100 meters out of my Colt CAR-A3 HBAR Elite was .85" its good stuff and I've been hooked on the hornady 75Gn loads ever since. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=307680 |
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Posted: 1/6/2007 2:57:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Here's a graph comparing the trajectories of 5.56 TAP fired from 14.5", 16" and 20" barrels.
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Posted: 1/7/2007 5:55:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Here is the velocity data to go with the trajectories in the above post.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 1:18:25 AM EDT
[#35]
Coming this spring - - -Black Hills 75 grain Match HP - - - red box versus blue box
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2007 6:19:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DevL]
[#36]
When Brouhaha and I chronoed those we had a 200 fps difference with the red box being the hotter load. It was at 5.56 velocity and when we posted our findings at firearmstactical.com Black Hills promtly assured us the Red Box was over pressure and asked it to be returned for testing. They found it to be some small figure slower and gave us several replacement boxes of Red Box. Their findings were not correct though... you could literally hear and feel the difference it was so great and his chrono was working fine. The Red Box 75 was the same accuracy as the Blue Box so I pitched in on an order Brouhaha made on the BB for 1000 rounds and was very pleased with its performance. I doubt you will find any differences in accuracy and any velocity difference is a lot to lot variance IMO. Id try more than one lot of ammo if possible to see how much velocity variance BH actually has. If they can have a 200 fps screw up I wonder how big a fluke that was or if they have large lot to lot variances... that would be my biggest question.
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Posted: 2/22/2007 10:23:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#37]
Speaking of variations in Black Hills’ ammunition, here is an interesting find for those of you who haven’t already come across this. Apparently, Black Hills ran short on their “223 Match” brass that is normally used to load their 75 grain Match HP “red box” ammunition. Suposedly, in order to meet their deadline, they substituted the WCC 06 brass that is used to load their MK262 ammunition.
The WCC brass has sealed and crimped primers. So, the 75 grain Match HP ammunition that was loaded using this brass has the “T1C” 75 grain Hornady BTHP bullet with a cannelure and crimped case neck and now sealed and crimped primers.   |
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Posted: 2/22/2007 11:07:57 PM EDT
[#38]
 ... too bad there moly coated thou ...
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Posted: 2/23/2007 10:51:47 AM EDT
[#39]
Rumor has it that some of the non-moly version was also loaded using the WCC brass, although I personally haven't seen any of it. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 9:25:42 PM EDT
[#40]
great info. Thanks
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Posted: 2/26/2007 1:54:29 PM EDT
[#41]
Shiny! |
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Posted: 3/14/2007 10:17:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#42]
Coming this summer.
6.8mm SPC: Hornady 110 grain TAP versus Hornady 110 grain V-MAX.  |
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Posted: 3/14/2007 11:08:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: paulosantos]
[#43]
Nice. You have a 6.8 or are you getting one? I can save you some trouble and tell you which one of the two rounds is better, but I'll let you test it out for yourself. Edit to add: I just realized they are both V-Max. How about testing all four of the Hornady 6.8 versions? I'll chip in some boxes if you need ammo.
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Posted: 3/14/2007 11:35:50 PM EDT
[#44]
I still have a little work to do on my 6.8mm build, but I'm off to a good start. (Current status of build pictured below.) I'm basing the build around a 16" Noveske Recon barrel. 
No holdin' out on us now!
Man, my OCD is already flaring up over this, so knowing me . . .
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Posted: 3/15/2007 8:09:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Well, from my 6.8 SPC, using Denny's 16.1" recon barrel, the Hornady 110 Gr. V-Max and the 110 Gr. V-Max TAP are more accurate than the Hornady 110 Gr. BTHP counterparts. I should be going to the range again soon and I will test out 3 of the 4 again. I don't have any more of the 110 Gr. BTHP TAP so I won't be able to test them. Last time I went out I was getting right around 1MOA with the 110 Gr. V-Max TAP, but it was only 5 round shot groups. |
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Posted: 3/15/2007 11:31:59 AM EDT
[#46]
If you would shoot a 10-shot group from 100 yards of each load and post your results, it would be greatly appreciated. |
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Posted: 3/15/2007 12:19:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: paulosantos]
[#47]
I just ordered a case of the Hornady 110 Gr. BTHP TAP and when I get it, I can test out all 4. I will also do the 10 round shot group, but the results might not be pretty. FYI, the price went up from $130 to $145 per case
Also, when I spoke with the Hornady Rep, she said that the TAP and the Civilian versions were basically the same except for the prices and the packaging. We'll just have to see what exactly "basically" means. |
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Posted: 3/15/2007 12:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: paulosantos]
[#48]
.
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Posted: 3/15/2007 5:55:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Great! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2007 11:33:28 AM EDT
[#50]
Lets move this to top of list. This is great. Waiting on Black Hills report.
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