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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:21:36 PM EDT
[#1]
E2's are full fence.
I asked/faced the same question when I entertained the idea of a 177 build. I really like the 177 and 177E1, but settled on an E2 when I came into a Colt 11.5 inch barrel..........along with the fact that NoDak didn't have the partial fence 80% out at the time, only the full fence.......which is what I went with. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:23:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
E2's are full fence. +1 |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 10:33:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the input. Looks like I need to go e1 if I want it to be correct. I like the looks of the e1 a bit better but the e2 would have been a little bit easier to put together. That would have been nice.
If one is going to buy a J&T pencil barrel to have it cut down for an e1, which length is the best one to buy? I'm assuming 10.5" is but want to verify that maybe more barrel isn't needed for the threads or something like that. |
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Posted: 7/23/2015 11:12:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Yes the E1 was shorter and from the pics that I've seen it
definitely will have to have the paperwork done for the SBR I'm no expert but I'm sure someone will chime in. |
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Posted: 7/24/2015 8:05:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the input. Looks like I need to go e1 if I want it to be correct. I like the looks of the e1 a bit better but the e2 would have been a little bit easier to put together. That would have been nice. If one is going to buy a J&T pencil barrel to have it cut down for an e1, which length is the best one to buy? I'm assuming 10.5" is but want to verify that maybe more barrel isn't needed for the threads or something like that. Member 57Ocatne had a 10.5, which I believe was a J&T, cut down to 10" for his 607. John Thomas did the surgery on that barrel. |
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Posted: 7/25/2015 8:32:47 AM EDT
[#6]
I don't know if I would completely rule out a partial fence on an XM177E2. Most folks know that the barrel marking on almost ALL the original E2 barrels we have seen is C MP C. However, the one I have is MP (only) marked dating it to the 1966-67 time frame.. My barrel does not have it's "original" FSB to help further date it (drain hole vs no drain hole) So, is it possible some of the very very 1st XM177E2s did have a partial??? Maybe.....
Then of coarse you have situations where a carbine got damaged, maybe lower was destroyed, and the E2 upper was slapped on an XM16E1 lower...... In the field, almost anything goes. 
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Posted: 7/25/2015 9:24:04 AM EDT
[#7]
I could be wrong, but I thought there was a recent discussion on this with a pic of a partial fence E2? I can't remember if it showed the receiver markings, or was at a distance suggesting an upper swap as sniper said.
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Posted: 7/25/2015 9:37:37 AM EDT
[#8]
I'll not dispute that there may have been a few e2's with partial fence lowers, but we can probably agree that the huge majority (I'll pick at least 95%, probably 99%) of them were full fence. If you are interested in getting the major components correct, and you say that you are, then a full fence is probably the way to go. I don't doubt that for every variation/model of AR there are exceptions to the rule.
I'll make an analogy........I know positively that Chevy put '66 big block hoods on a few of the 67 Corvettes. (a labor dispute left the hood mold damaged and they pulled the 66 mold out of storage and used it until the 67 mold could be repaired) If I were building a 67 Corvette I would still use a 67 hood even though I knew that SOME 67's came with 66 hoods. |
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Posted: 7/25/2015 11:07:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll not dispute that there may have been a few e2's with partial fence lowers, but we can probably agree that the huge majority (I'll pick at least 95%, probably 99%) of them were full fence. If you are interested in getting the major components correct, and you say that you are, then a full fence is probably the way to go. I don't doubt that for every variation/model of AR there are exceptions to the rule. I'll make an analogy........I know positively that Chevy put '66 big block hoods on a few of the 67 Corvettes. (a labor dispute left the hood mold damaged and they pulled the 66 mold out of storage and used it until the 67 mold could be repaired) If I were building a 67 Corvette I would still use a 67 hood even though I knew that SOME 67's came with 66 hoods. Stoner, ya made me LMAO about the Vettes... And yes,, I'm in total agreement about very very few being partial fence... Funny you mention a "labor dispute" about the hoods. This is in regards to early M14s. Many early original M14s left the original SA wearing M14 stocks that used the M1 Garand butt plate. A steel workers strike in like 1961 made it so SA could not make the flip up type butt plates as is standard on M14s,they had to use old stock M1 Garand BPs. |
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Posted: 7/25/2015 11:14:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Any combination of parts could be found in country. Damaged weapons would be repaired with what's available. Could find a XM 16 E1 partial fence lower converted to a 177E2. The Army wasn't so concerned with it being factory correct as long as it was functional. E1s were upgraded with new barrels to the new E2 standards in country.
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Posted: 7/26/2015 1:18:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Thanks a lot for the information. Sounds like I should go the xm177e1 route. Cant wait! Now I need to find parts to finish the upper and lower!
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Posted: 7/26/2015 2:03:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Member 57Octane had a 10.5, which I believe was a J&T, cut down to 10" for his 607. John Thomas did the surgery on that barrel. That is correct. I bought it from J&T as a 10.5" and sent it to JT to make it into a 10". He does excellent work and it turned out perfect. It shoots a lot better than I do. 
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Posted: 7/26/2015 7:28:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is correct. I bought it from J&T as a 10.5" and sent it to JT to make it into a 10". He does excellent work and it turned out perfect. It shoots a lot better than I do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Member 57Octane had a 10.5, which I believe was a J&T, cut down to 10" for his 607. John Thomas did the surgery on that barrel. That is correct. I bought it from J&T as a 10.5" and sent it to JT to make it into a 10". He does excellent work and it turned out perfect. It shoots a lot better than I do. That's what I'm going to do! Did you get the barrel with front sight attached? If so, was it an F marked front sight? JT told me to if the sight is an Fsight, I will have to crank the rear all the way to get it to work right. |
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Posted: 7/26/2015 7:55:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I'm going to do! Did you get the barrel with front sight attached? If so, was it an F marked front sight? JT told me to if the sight is an Fsight, I will have to crank the rear all the way to get it to work right. I got it with the front sight attached. The one I have is not F marked. An F marked will still work with an A1 upper, you just have to lower the front sight post pretty far down to get it to sight in right. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:37:56 PM EDT
[#16]
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 4:50:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers. Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share?  A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 5:14:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share? A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers. Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share? A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:02:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers. Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share? A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=651388 See pics |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:30:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Lots of XM177E1s were upgraded to E2 specs once the barrels burned out from what I understand... jes' sayin'.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:03:39 PM EDT
[#21]
I grilled the guy and showed him faux moderators.....He was very certain it was a slickside upper with a partial fence lower and the barrel had the grenade ring.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:47:11 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=651388 See pics Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers. Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share? A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=651388 See pics https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=651388 |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 12:14:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I believe the Navy Brown Water XM177E2's had partial fence lowers. Hipster, I'm finding zero photographic evidence of this. What have you found? Care to share? A lot of the pics I have found are with the early Colt 40 mike mike grenade launchers hanging off them. No photo evidence other than a Vietnam Vet that was a gunner on a Patrol Boat who said his weapon was a XM177E2 with a partial fence lower, I actually built mine with a partial fence lower because of this man's word. I showed him a Nodak Replica XM16E1 lower next to a Nodak A1 lower and he swears that was exactly the lower on his weapon. I'm not debating the Army full fence XM177E2's here.....Just saying at the very least, this man carried a XM177E2 with a Partial fence lower and if he did, I'm sure many more carried them. Not every weapon was photographed in Vietnam and we all know how the Navy/Airforce put together mixmasters. Quoted:
I grilled the guy and showed him faux moderators.....He was very certain it was a slickside upper with a partial fence lower and the barrel had the grenade ring. I'm not saying the man didn't carry a carbine with a partial fence lower or 11.5" barrel with grenade ring. Vets at the time and going well into the 1980's called all the short barreled variants CAR 15's. Didn't really care or pay attention at the time what the rollmarks were. Had no idea us nuts in the future would even care. "slickside upper" I figure the gentleman had a mixmaster or more than likely an earlier XM177 with a new replacement barrel. Probably all he cared about at the time was surviving his tour and making it back home to his family or starting a family. 
Hell, now I wish I had paid more attention to and taken pics of our brand new M4's that replaced the M3 grease guns. I was a gun guy but had no interest in AR's at the time, my only experience with them had been with worn out M16A2's and I was not impressed.
Probably the only way to put this question to rest is for pics of a European de-ac that made its way from Asia with a partial fence on one side and a big ol' XM177E2 roll mark on the other. Kind of like the late production full fence XM16E1's. 
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Posted: 7/30/2015 1:06:18 PM EDT
[#24]
To clarify I used the term slickside not the Veteran... I asked him to describe the gun and pick out the parts as best as he could remember and he mentioned that it was unique because in basic he qualified with an early forward assist A1 and when issued the weapon in question he liked the fact that there wasn't a FA because "They caused more problems then they fixed."
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Posted: 7/30/2015 2:05:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Forgive me if I seem like a jerk, HipShOT, that is certainly not my intention. I love hearing stories from the Vets when they are willing to share. Sadly we are losing more everyday and the history and lessons in humanity are lost as well.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 2:06:27 PM EDT
[#26]
dang double tap
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Posted: 7/30/2015 9:16:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To clarify I used the term slickside not the Veteran... I asked him to describe the gun and pick out the parts as best as he could remember and he mentioned that it was unique because in basic he qualified with an early forward assist A1 and when issued the weapon in question he liked the fact that there wasn't a FA because "They caused more problems then they fixed." Navy? I still think it was an early lower with a later E2 upper. What years did he serve? |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 10:07:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Navy? I still think it was an early lower with a later E2 upper. What years did he serve? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
To clarify I used the term slickside not the Veteran... I asked him to describe the gun and pick out the parts as best as he could remember and he mentioned that it was unique because in basic he qualified with an early forward assist A1 and when issued the weapon in question he liked the fact that there wasn't a FA because "They caused more problems then they fixed." Navy? I still think it was an early lower with a later E2 upper. What years did he serve? 2 Tours 68-69 and 70-71 The Carbine in question was in his second Tour. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 10:10:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Forgive me if I seem like a jerk, HipShOT, that is certainly not my intention. I love hearing stories from the Vets when they are willing to share. Sadly we are losing more everyday and the history and lessons in humanity are lost as well. I didn't think that you came off negative in anyway and you are quite right about our Veterans.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 11:22:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2 Tours 68-69 and 70-71 The Carbine in question was in his second Tour. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
To clarify I used the term slickside not the Veteran... I asked him to describe the gun and pick out the parts as best as he could remember and he mentioned that it was unique because in basic he qualified with an early forward assist A1 and when issued the weapon in question he liked the fact that there wasn't a FA because "They caused more problems then they fixed." Navy? I still think it was an early lower with a later E2 upper. What years did he serve? 2 Tours 68-69 and 70-71 The Carbine in question was in his second Tour. I'm really guessing it was a 610 with an 11.5" replacement barrel. It fits the time frame and the story - but I suppose anything's possible. Very cool, regardless. |
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]. I find it very hard to believe the few pics we have seen in the wild of 11.5" barrels on partial fence lowers were XM177E2's. The XM177E1's were using full fence lowers well before production ended on those. Why would Colt use an older style lower on a newer weapon? Especially when Uncle Sugar wanted the mag release fence as an upgrade to help prevent accidental mag release. I maintain what we are seeing are XM177E1's that have been rebarreled with 11.5" barrels which superseded 10.0" barrels in inventory.
