so FTF illegal..are FFL's forced to play?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - so FTF illegal..are FFL's forced to play? (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 3/15/2013 5:36:02 PM EDT

friend wants to sell his shotgun to a guy his friend knows, they called a few local gun shops that refused to do a "private" transfer. WTF??? I thought Andy had arranged all this already...
Are Federal licensed firearms dealers forced to do transfers between NYS residents ? how can they be?

Posted: 3/15/2013 5:40:35 PM EDT

[#1]

Not obligated to do them. Especially seeing how supposedly we can't charge more than$10 for said transfer. Not gonna happen.

Posted: 3/15/2013 5:43:39 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Not obligated to do them. Especially seeing how supposedly we can't charge more than$10 for said transfer. Not gonna happen.

This was by design by the libs, makes it fiscally impossible for the average FFL to make a living. And if the transfer goes south to "straw man" country, he's probably legally up the creek.

Posted: 3/15/2013 5:44:48 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Not obligated to do them. Especially seeing how supposedly we can't charge more than$10 for said transfer. Not gonna happen.

This was by design by the libs, makes it fiscally impossible for the average FFL to make a living. And if the transfer goes south to "straw man" country, he's probably legally up the creek.

The nearest ffl to me is like 45 fucking minutes.

Posted: 3/15/2013 6:09:04 PM EDT

[#4]

Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

Posted: 3/15/2013 6:15:36 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

sounds like break it into many parts and sell the parts....

Posted: 3/15/2013 6:21:11 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

sounds like break it into many parts and sell the parts....

You can't sell any firearms without an ffl. So you could break it into as many pieces as you want...you cant transfer without ffl

Posted: 3/15/2013 6:27:45 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

sounds like break it into many parts and sell the parts....

You can't sell any firearms without an ffl. So you could break it into as many pieces as you want...you cant transfer without ffl

you can sell replacement parts can you not?

Im not familiar with shotgun law, but it doesnt have a "lower reciver" to speak of right? you should be able to sell it in parts unless im very mistaken lol

EDIT:

I guess I was technically wrong. However if you sell the shotgun barrel then you are ok if I am reading this right from the ATF's own site.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

If im undersanding, you would no longer have control of the other parts so you are ok

Posted: 3/15/2013 6:37:07 PM EDT

[#8]

Setting a fee for a required action will probably be held to be illegal at some level.

Posted: 3/15/2013 7:08:13 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

sounds like break it into many parts and sell the parts....

You can't sell any firearms without an ffl. So you could break it into as many pieces as you want...you cant transfer without ffl

you can sell replacement parts can you not?

Im not familiar with shotgun law, but it doesnt have a "lower reciver" to speak of right? you should be able to sell it in parts unless im very mistaken lol

EDIT:

I guess I was technically wrong. However if you sell the shotgun barrel then you are ok if I am reading this right from the ATF's own site.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

If im undersanding, you would no longer have control of the other parts so you are ok

The receiver of the gun is what is considered the Firearm.

Posted: 3/15/2013 7:16:43 PM EDT

[#10]

I'm not saying to do it but who is going to know when exactly the sale took place? Maybe the transaction occurred in December. If you wanted to really get around it (although it's a huge pain in the ass) do the "transfer" in another state.

Posted: 3/15/2013 7:41:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like ammo for another legal action.

sounds like break it into many parts and sell the parts....

You can't sell any firearms without an ffl. So you could break it into as many pieces as you want...you cant transfer without ffl

you can sell replacement parts can you not?

Im not familiar with shotgun law, but it doesnt have a "lower reciver" to speak of right? you should be able to sell it in parts unless im very mistaken lol

EDIT:

I guess I was technically wrong. However if you sell the shotgun barrel then you are ok if I am reading this right from the ATF's own site.

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

If im undersanding, you would no longer have control of the other parts so you are ok

The receiver of the gun is what is considered the Firearm.

Only federally speaking. A "firearm" has a completely different definition on the state level.

Posted: 3/15/2013 8:26:32 PM EDT

[#12]

I guess if I was an FFL I would only offer private transfers for members of my "buyers club". Membership would of course have a small fee ...say 25-35 for a daily membership (depending on overhead and all that) that would allow the purchaser to conduct one transfer at the rate of 10 dollars.

Posted: 3/15/2013 8:50:58 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I'm not saying to do it but who is going to know when exactly the sale took place? Maybe the transaction occurred in December. If you wanted to really get around it (although it's a huge pain in the ass) do the "transfer" in another state.

The only way to entertain an offer like this is to be insured you are not selling to five oh. You wanna take that chance?

Posted: 3/15/2013 9:37:02 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
I guess if I was an FFL I would only offer private transfers for members of my "buyers club". Membership would of course have a small fee ...say 25-35 for a daily membership (depending on overhead and all that) that would allow the purchaser to conduct one transfer at the rate of 10 dollars.

I was going to post something like this. Sort of.

Pay the FFL this requisite $10 fee and give him a $25 tip.

ETA: Of couse it would be illegal for the FFL to ask for the tip, but for someone asking for a transfer and getting denied by the FFL because it isn't worth his time, this could be a deal sweetener.

11 Foot Ladder > 10 Foot Wall

Posted: 3/15/2013 9:56:05 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess if I was an FFL I would only offer private transfers for members of my "buyers club". Membership would of course have a small fee ...say 25-35 for a daily membership (depending on overhead and all that) that would allow the purchaser to conduct one transfer at the rate of 10 dollars.

I was going to post something like this. Sort of.

Pay the FFL this requisite $10 fee and give him a $25 tip.

ETA: Of couse it would be illegal for the FFL to ask for the tip, but for someone asking for a transfer and getting denied by the FFL because it isn't worth his time, this could be a deal sweetener.

11 Foot Ladder > 10 Foot Wall

Yeah, offering a tip would be fine with customers that the dealer knows, but I don't know if they'd want to risk it for people they don't know.

Posted: 3/16/2013 3:37:00 AM EDT

[#16]

I didn't even know until this morning when I saw the front page of the paper, that FTF sales are now illegal. I should probably pay more attention, but I probably won't.

Posted: 3/16/2013 4:05:33 AM EDT

[#17]

If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D

Posted: 3/16/2013 4:20:33 AM EDT

[#18]

The shop that I work at won't be doing them. The state requires a form be issued to the buyer/seller verifying that the transfer was done through an FFL, but they have yet to issue the form. They also neglected to consider that any 4473 we do must be linked to a transaction number and the serial number of the gun, which has to be entered in our inventory like any firearm we take in to sell. That means we have to log in any gun that someone wants to sell out of our shop in order to keep a proper inventory in the event of an ATF audit, which occurs once every few years. Our normal long gun fee for an out of state transfer is $25, it is $35 for a handgun. King Andy wants to "allow" us to charge $10. Fuck that.

Posted: 3/16/2013 4:52:59 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
The shop that I work at won't be doing them. The state requires a form be issued to the buyer/seller verifying that the transfer was done through an FFL, but they have yet to issue the form. They also neglected to consider that any 4473 we do must be linked to a transaction number and the serial number of the gun, which has to be entered in our inventory like any firearm we take in to sell. That means we have to log in any gun that someone wants to sell out of our shop in order to keep a proper inventory in the event of an ATF audit, which occurs once every few years. Our normal long gun fee for an out of state transfer is $25, it is $35 for a handgun. King Andy wants to "allow" us to charge $10. Fuck that.

Pretty much. It gets logged in, gets logged out. I want my normal transfer fee, period. Plus there is no NY form yet, so a 4473 is the only way you could do it. Don't see any FFL falling over him/herself to do these.

Posted: 3/16/2013 5:38:03 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Pretty much. It gets logged in, gets logged out. I want my normal transfer fee, period. Plus there is no NY form yet, so a 4473 is the only way you could do it. Don't see any FFL falling over him/herself to do these.

Why would you need a "state form" which is meaningless since the gun is required to be transferred by a licensed dealer on a 4473 in compliance with federal law? As a FFL you can't initiate a NICS check without a signed 4473 nor could you ever be involved in the transfer as a FFL without logging the gun in/out of your books along with a properly filled out and signed 4473 and a NICS "proceed". If for some reason the transaction is delayed or denied now you're really screwed because you just can't hand the gun back over to the other party without another 4473 and a new NICS check.

I'm convinced Cuomo had the state house janitorial staff write the SAFE Act considering they were clueless about FFL transfers of long guns under federal law.

Posted: 3/16/2013 5:54:27 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Pretty much. It gets logged in, gets logged out. I want my normal transfer fee, period. Plus there is no NY form yet, so a 4473 is the only way you could do it. Don't see any FFL falling over him/herself to do these.

Why would you need a "state form" which is meaningless since the gun is required to be transferred by a licensed dealer on a 4473 in compliance with federal law? As a FFL you can't initiate a NICS check without a signed 4473 nor could you ever be involved in the transfer as a FFL without logging the gun in/out of your books along with a properly filled out and signed 4473 and a NICS "proceed". If for some reason the transaction is delayed or denied now you're really screwed because you just can't hand the gun back over to the other party without another 4473 and a new NICS check.

I'm convinced Cuomo had the state house janitorial staff write the SAFE Act considering they were clueless about FFL transfers of long guns under federal law.

Oh, I'm not so sure of that.

I assume they knew the $10 maximum transfer fee would not be something the FFL's would go for.

So, they went a long way to removing private transfers and sales.

Maybe tinfoil on my part but it appears it might have been by design.

It would be nice if FFL's helped private people out but based on posts in this thread by a FFL that doesn't appear to be happening.

Posted: 3/16/2013 6:35:32 AM EDT

[#22]

I think the janitorial staff if they crafted the bill would do a much better job actually

Posted: 3/16/2013 6:41:39 AM EDT

[#23]

Divide and conquer

Posted: 3/16/2013 6:48:39 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Oh, I'm not so sure of that.

I assume they knew the $10 maximum transfer fee would not be something the FFL's would go for.

So, they went a long way to removing private transfers and sales.

Maybe tinfoil on my part but it appears it might have been by design.

It would be nice if FFL's helped private people out but based on posts in this thread by a FFL that doesn't appear to be happening.

Nah, the SAFE Act authors were/are just morons. Along with the missing exemptions, conflicting statutes, conflicting/overlapping effective dates etc. some of the statutes as written amount to nothing more than non-legal gibberish. They simply ignored the fact that using the FBI NICS system for SAFE Act ammunition purchases or so called "private transfers" is prohibited under federal law.

FFLs are subject to both federal administrative and criminal sanctions if they don't comply with federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI for firearm transfers and accessing the NICS system.

Posted: 3/16/2013 6:57:09 AM EDT

[#25]

the way I read that part of the law is. You can't charge more than $10 for the nics check. At the federal level an ffl can't do the nics without a transfer taking place. which is entering the firearm in and out of their books. The transfer itself is a seperate step from the nics check which an administative fee can be added. $10 for the nics--$?? for the transfer

the state is not supplying their own check system and the feds are not making any changes in an ffl's requirements

the biggest part is no ffl is required to do a ftf nics check

the form they speak doesn't seem to exist yet either.

Posted: 3/16/2013 7:12:46 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Oh, I'm not so sure of that.

I assume they knew the $10 maximum transfer fee would not be something the FFL's would go for.

So, they went a long way to removing private transfers and sales.

Maybe tinfoil on my part but it appears it might have been by design.

It would be nice if FFL's helped private people out but based on posts in this thread by a FFL that doesn't appear to be happening.

Nah, the SAFE Act authors were/are just morons. Along with the missing exemptions, conflicting statutes, conflicting/overlapping effective dates etc. some of the statutes as written amount to nothing more than non-legal gibberish. They simply ignored the fact that using the FBI NICS system for SAFE Act ammunition purchases or so called "private transfers" is prohibited under federal law.

FFLs are subject to both federal administrative and criminal sanctions if they don't comply with federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI for firearm transfers and accessing the NICS system.

It also seems the state had no clue about their own handgun transfer rules either or how strict they already are. They make it sound like anyone can slap down cash and get one.

Posted: 3/16/2013 7:28:08 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Oh, I'm not so sure of that.

I assume they knew the $10 maximum transfer fee would not be something the FFL's would go for.

So, they went a long way to removing private transfers and sales.

Maybe tinfoil on my part but it appears it might have been by design.

It would be nice if FFL's helped private people out but based on posts in this thread by a FFL that doesn't appear to be happening.

Nah, the SAFE Act authors were/are just morons. Along with the missing exemptions, conflicting statutes, conflicting/overlapping effective dates etc. some of the statutes as written amount to nothing more than non-legal gibberish. They simply ignored the fact that using the FBI NICS system for SAFE Act ammunition purchases or so called "private transfers" is prohibited under federal law.

FFLs are subject to both federal administrative and criminal sanctions if they don't comply with federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI for firearm transfers and accessing the NICS system.

Agreed. You guys give them too much credit. They are too dumb to be crafty. It was just a horribly worded and designed bill.

Posted: 3/16/2013 7:30:31 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Pretty much. It gets logged in, gets logged out. I want my normal transfer fee, period. Plus there is no NY form yet, so a 4473 is the only way you could do it. Don't see any FFL falling over him/herself to do these.

Why would you need a "state form" which is meaningless since the gun is required to be transferred by a licensed dealer on a 4473 in compliance with federal law? As a FFL you can't initiate a NICS check without a signed 4473 nor could you ever be involved in the transfer as a FFL without logging the gun in/out of your books along with a properly filled out and signed 4473 and a NICS "proceed". If for some reason the transaction is delayed or denied now you're really screwed because you just can't hand the gun back over to the other party without another 4473 and a new NICS check.

I'm convinced Cuomo had the state house janitorial staff write the SAFE Act considering they were clueless about FFL transfers of long guns under federal law.

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

Posted: 3/16/2013 7:34:03 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Pretty much. It gets logged in, gets logged out. I want my normal transfer fee, period. Plus there is no NY form yet, so a 4473 is the only way you could do it. Don't see any FFL falling over him/herself to do these.

Why would you need a "state form" which is meaningless since the gun is required to be transferred by a licensed dealer on a 4473 in compliance with federal law? As a FFL you can't initiate a NICS check without a signed 4473 nor could you ever be involved in the transfer as a FFL without logging the gun in/out of your books along with a properly filled out and signed 4473 and a NICS "proceed". If for some reason the transaction is delayed or denied now you're really screwed because you just can't hand the gun back over to the other party without another 4473 and a new NICS check.

I'm convinced Cuomo had the state house janitorial staff write the SAFE Act considering they were clueless about FFL transfers of long guns under federal law.

That's the point I was making, you just said it better. Thanks

Posted: 3/16/2013 7:34:41 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

...................

Nah, the SAFE Act authors were/are just morons. Along with the missing exemptions, conflicting statutes, conflicting/overlapping effective dates etc. some of the statutes as written amount to nothing more than non-legal gibberish. They simply ignored the fact that using the FBI NICS system for SAFE Act ammunition purchases or so called "private transfers" is prohibited under federal law.

FFLs are subject to both federal administrative and criminal sanctions if they don't comply with federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI for firearm transfers and accessing the NICS system.

Good points.

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:10:39 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A

40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER

41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-

42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE

43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND

44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

That "private party seller" has already transferred the gun to the FFL by the time the NICS check is initiated and has nothing more to do with the transfer to the 3rd party. The "seller" wouldn't be entitled to the results of a NICS check and a state form would amount to a NICS registration and would violate federal law and the rules regulations of the ATF/FBI.

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:41:30 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

That "private party seller" has already transferred the gun to the FFL by the time the NICS check is initiated and has nothing more to do with the transfer to the 3rd party. The "seller" wouldn't be entitled to the results of a NICS check and a state form would amount to a NICS registration and would violate federal law and the rules regulations of the ATF/FBI.

And the question raised before is valid...
What if the buyer fails the check. Does the dealer have to do a NICS on the seller, and what if he fails???

As well, here is another issue:

Some jurisdictions have a "used merchandise" law which requires a licensed resale dealer of any type of merchandise to hold anything they buy for up to two weeks so the Police can check it for stolen. So would a dealer in such a jurisdiction (Suffolk County has such a law, the old Edelmans had to hold used guns for two weeks) even be able to legally do the transfer?

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:53:07 AM EDT

[#33]

Here is SAFE Act Section 17. I don't see where this mandates that transactions must occur as a transfer through the FFL. It only discusses that a NICS check must be performed and recorded by an FFL dealer and recorded in an approved form.

There is no mention of the FFL handling the transfer, only that the NICS must be performed.

If the NYSP have not approved a form, then how could this provision be enforceable?

Can anyone reference a section that states that the FFL must transfer in and out of their book?

I believe this is being misconstrued. How is the Saratoga show handling the private sales? I doubt that Petronis is booking all of them on his log book.

(forgive the caps... the state likes to shout)

S 17. The general business law is amended by adding a new article
39-DDD to read as follows:

ARTICLE 39-DDD
PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
SECTION 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.

S 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.

1. IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER REQUIREMENTS PURSUANT TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAW,
ALL SALES, EXCHANGES OR DISPOSALS OF FIREARMS, RIFLES OR SHOTGUNS SHALL
BE CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS SECTION UNLESS SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE
OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED BY A LICENSED IMPORTER, LICENSED MANUFACTURER
OR LICENSED DEALER, AS THOSE TERMS ARE DEFINED IN 18 USC S 922, WHEN
SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THAT PERSON'S
FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE OR SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS BETWEEN
MEMBERS OF AN IMMEDIATE FAMILY. FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "IMMEDIATE
FAMILY" SHALL MEAN SPOUSES, DOMESTIC PARTNERS, CHILDREN AND STEP-CHIL
DREN.

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK
GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.

4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
TRANSACTION.

5. ANY RECORD PRODUCED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND ANY TRANSMISSION
THEREOF TO ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY SHALL NOT BE CONSIDERED A PUBLIC RECORD
FOR PURPOSES OF ARTICLE SIX OF THE PUBLIC OFFICERS LAW.

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:53:33 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

That "private party seller" has already transferred the gun to the FFL by the time the NICS check is initiated and has nothing more to do with the transfer to the 3rd party. The "seller" wouldn't be entitled to the results of a NICS check and a state form would amount to a NICS registration and would violate federal law and the rules regulations of the ATF/FBI.

And the question raised before is valid...
What if the buyer fails the check. Does the dealer have to do a NICS on the seller, and what if he fails??? Yes, then firearm can't be turned over to either party, stays with or sold to the FFL.

As well, here is another issue:

Some jurisdictions have a "used merchandise" law which requires a licensed resale dealer of any type of merchandise to hold anything they buy for up to two weeks so the Police can check it for stolen. So would a dealer in such a jurisdiction (Suffolk County has such a law, the old Edelmans had to hold used guns for two weeks) even be able to legally do the transfer?

I don't have an answer for this scenario, sorry.

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:57:11 AM EDT

[#35]

dosquattros: answering your question without quoting all the gobly gook.

Not just anyone can do a NICS check. only a FFL can do it. we are registered with NICS. can only perform a NICS in lieu of a completed form 4473. it has to be logged into bound book and logged out at completion of transfer. no ifs and or buts.

Posted: 3/16/2013 8:59:13 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Here is SAFE Act Section 17. I don't see where this mandates that transactions must occur as a transfer through the FFL. It only discusses that a NICS check must be performed and recorded by an FFL dealer and recorded in an approved form.

There is no mention of the FFL handling the transfer, only that the NICS must be performed.

If the NYSP have not approved a form, then how could this provision be enforceable?

Can anyone reference a section that states that the FFL must transfer in and out of their book?

I believe this is being misconstrued. How is the Saratoga show handling the private sales? I doubt that Petronis is booking all of them on his log book.

(forgive the caps... the state likes to shout)

S 17. The general business law is amended by adding a new article
39-DDD to read as follows:

ARTICLE 39-DDD
PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS
SECTION 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.

S 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.

1. IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER REQUIREMENTS PURSUANT TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAW,
ALL SALES, EXCHANGES OR DISPOSALS OF FIREARMS, RIFLES OR SHOTGUNS SHALL
BE CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS SECTION UNLESS SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE
OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED BY A LICENSED IMPORTER, LICENSED MANUFACTURER
OR LICENSED DEALER, AS THOSE TERMS ARE DEFINED IN 18 USC S 922, WHEN
SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THAT PERSON'S
FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE OR SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS BETWEEN
MEMBERS OF AN IMMEDIATE FAMILY. FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "IMMEDIATE
FAMILY" SHALL MEAN SPOUSES, DOMESTIC PARTNERS, CHILDREN AND STEP-CHIL
DREN.

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK
GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED
PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE
PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL
REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO
HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER.

4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT
TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER
TRANSACTION.

5. ANY RECORD PRODUCED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND ANY TRANSMISSION
THEREOF TO ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY SHALL NOT BE CONSIDERED A PUBLIC RECORD
FOR PURPOSES OF ARTICLE SIX OF THE PUBLIC OFFICERS LAW.

I understand your point, but I suspect that the lawyers for the gun shops are going to advise them that the guns have to be booked in and out to comply with Federal law. Otherwise, the dealers will have a difficult defending a Federal charge that they are selling guns off their books.
OTOH, if the State were to set up it's own background check system, and it was required only that you can prove the State check was done, you might not even need a dealer. For example, you could transfer a handgun right at the Pistol License Section. They have a computer right there that runs a NYSIS check.

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:02:52 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm not saying to do it but who is going to know when exactly the sale took place? Maybe the transaction occurred in December. If you wanted to really get around it (although it's a huge pain in the ass) do the "transfer" in another state.

The only way to entertain an offer like this is to be insured you are not selling to five oh. You wanna take that chance?

What could they do if you were in another state? They couldn't do shit. Plus what the guy could do is the same thing with his friend and then let the friend deal with the other guy. Again I'm not saying to do this but how could they prevent such a thing, launch a massive statewide sting operation just for the safe act bullshit?

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:05:01 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D

PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-)

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:05:08 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
the way I read that part of the law is. You can't charge more than $10 for the nics check. At the federal level an ffl can't do the nics without a transfer taking place. which is entering the firearm in and out of their books. The transfer itself is a seperate step from the nics check which an administative fee can be added. $10 for the nics--$?? for the transfer

the state is not supplying their own check system and the feds are not making any changes in an ffl's requirements

the biggest part is no ffl is required to do a ftf nics check

the form they speak doesn't seem to exist yet either.

I am not an FFL, but I do not believe the highlighted statement is correct.

I understand that the 4473 requires a NICS check number. I do not believe that every NICS check requires a 4473.

A failed NICS check ends a transfer and no 4473 gets logged, as no transfer occurs.

Somebody please correct me if that is wrong.

I see Roland's response above... thanks!

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:13:22 AM EDT

[#40]

I'm an FFL. You can't just call nics and run someone. They have to fill out the 4473 and legitimately be buying a gun. Also, when I had my interview with the atf, I was told that if either the federal government says no or the state says no then the answer is no. The no from either one supersedes the other.

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:16:59 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I didn't even know until this morning when I saw the front page of the paper, that FTF sales are now illegal. I should probably pay more attention, but I probably won't.

No Homo, but I like you.

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:31:45 AM EDT

[#42]

A de facto ban on face to face sales.
A law basically requiring FFL's to break federal law.

It all sounds like good news for us when it comes to going to court.

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:40:41 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
A de facto ban on face to face sales.
A law basically requiring FFL's to break federal law.

It all sounds like good news for us when it comes to going to court.

There are so many things wrong with this law, I don't even know where to begin. One thing is for sure that they never even considered that the FBI NICS system wouldn't be at their disposal. Shit, they wanted ammo to go thru NICS and the feds told them to go pound salt. Unless NY comes up with it's own system, don't expect private sales to be done(legally).

This whole thing needs to be shit canned. That's what happens when you want to be first Andy.

Posted: 3/16/2013 9:49:37 AM EDT

[#44]

Do a face to face and write up an oil date and call it a day....

Posted: 3/16/2013 11:10:35 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

That "private party seller" has already transferred the gun to the FFL by the time the NICS check is initiated and has nothing more to do with the transfer to the 3rd party. The "seller" wouldn't be entitled to the results of a NICS check and a state form would amount to a NICS registration and would violate federal law and the rules regulations of the ATF/FBI.

The way I read it, the dealer is the one filling out the form, not the "seller". Also, if the form is being kept at the dealers, it is not a violation of the no gun registry law. Just like 4473's are kept at the dealers but if they want to come and inspect them they can.

Posted: 3/16/2013 11:25:37 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A
40 NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER
41 WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK-
42 GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE
43 APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND
44 CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED.

Hopefully the 4473 will be the approved document....but maybe it will be a separate form from the state.

That "private party seller" has already transferred the gun to the FFL by the time the NICS check is initiated and has nothing more to do with the transfer to the 3rd party. The "seller" wouldn't be entitled to the results of a NICS check and a state form would amount to a NICS registration and would violate federal law and the rules regulations of the ATF/FBI.

The way I read it, the dealer is the one filling out the form, not the "seller". Also, if the form is being kept at the dealers, it is not a violation of the no gun registry law. Just like 4473's are kept at the dealers but if they want to come and inspect them they can.

So where's the form and where do I do the background check thru? Not NICS, because you need a completed form 4473 to even initiate the NICS check, and the buyer fills out the 4473, not the FFL. You see all the confusion and problems and why no FFLs are curently doing FTF transfers checks. Not because we dont' want to help out fellow gun enthusiast's. It's because there is no procedure to do them.

Posted: 3/16/2013 12:28:19 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D

PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-)

I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL.

Posted: 3/16/2013 12:33:32 PM EDT

[#48]

From this article on The Buffalo News on March 10, 2013:

Dennis Deasy said he’s happy to handle federal background checks for anyone who wants them done for private sales. He’ll charge $10 per person.
But, he said, he’s not counting on a lot of business from the extra background checks. There’s no real way to tell whether a private sale happened after the March 15 start date, Deasy pointed out. “They’ll say: ‘I sold that a long time ago,’ ” he said. “It’s a totally unenforceable law.”

The Mr. Deasy quoted in the article is the owner of the Niagara Gun Range on the border of Wheatfield/North Tonawanda. Maybe someone should give him a call and see what his FFL/store's plan is for private sale background checks.

Posted: 3/16/2013 12:36:05 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

So where's the form and where do I do the background check thru? Not NICS, because you need a completed form 4473 to even initiate the NICS check, and the buyer fills out the 4473, not the FFL. You see all the confusion and problems and why no FFLs are curently doing FTF transfers checks. Not because we dont' want to help out fellow gun enthusiast's. It's because there is no procedure to do them.

If the FFL actually complied with the SAFE Act as written he/she would be conducting a "private" transfer of a firearm off his/her books which is prohibited by Federal law. If the FFL complies with Federal law by logging the gun into his/her inventory and subsequently transferring the gun on a 4473 and logging it out of his inventory then it's not a "private" transfer between unlicensed individuals and the SAFE Act "form" requirements are meaningless.

Like I said before, the SAFE Act was written by morons who had no knowledge of either Federal firearms law or the rules/regulations of the ATF and FBI.

Posted: 3/16/2013 12:54:08 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:

So where's the form and where do I do the background check thru? Not NICS, because you need a completed form 4473 to even initiate the NICS check, and the buyer fills out the 4473, not the FFL. You see all the confusion and problems and why no FFLs are curently doing FTF transfers checks. Not because we dont' want to help out fellow gun enthusiast's. It's because there is no procedure to do them.

If the FFL actually complied with the SAFE Act as written he/she would be conducting a "private" transfer of a firearm off his/her books which is prohibited by Federal law. If the FFL complies with Federal law by logging the gun into his/her inventory and subsequently transferring the gun on a 4473 and logging it out of his inventory then it's not a "private" transfer between unlicensed individuals and the SAFE Act "form" requirements are meaningless.

Like I said before, the SAFE Act was written by morons who had no knowledge of either Federal firearms law or the rules/regulations of the ATF and FBI.

Correct, which is why it's not happening the way NY wrote it up. It's either follow, Fed laws, 4473, NICs or nothing.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - so FTF illegal..are FFL's forced to play? (Page 1 of 3)

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