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Posted: 3/16/2013 1:06:18 PM EDT
[#1]
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So where's the form and where do I do the background check thru? Not NICS, because you need a completed form 4473 to even initiate the NICS check, and the buyer fills out the 4473, not the FFL. You see all the confusion and problems and why no FFLs are curently doing FTF transfers checks. Not because we dont' want to help out fellow gun enthusiast's. It's because there is no procedure to do them. If the FFL actually complied with the SAFE Act as written he/she would be conducting a "private" transfer of a firearm off his/her books which is prohibited by Federal law. If the FFL complies with Federal law by logging the gun into his/her inventory and subsequently transferring the gun on a 4473 and logging it out of his inventory then it's not a "private" transfer between unlicensed individuals and the SAFE Act "form" requirements are meaningless. Like I said before, the SAFE Act was written by morons who had no knowledge of either Federal firearms law or the rules/regulations of the ATF and FBI. Correct, which is why it's not happening the way NY wrote it up. It's either follow, Fed laws, 4473, NICs or nothing. So if done this way, then the FFLs would not be subject to the $10 cap? |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 1:10:04 PM EDT
[#2]
SNAFUBAR.
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Posted: 3/16/2013 1:21:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Well my friend who does not know the buyer decided he'll just keep the gun. on the brighter side...
I made a FTF deal today 
had a guy call me through my ad on armslist, met him in a parking lot...and sold him a Gamo Pellet Rifle!  no NICS check required!!!!!! still felt kind of like a spy, pull up roll down window...exchange and off we went!
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Posted: 3/16/2013 1:22:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: Correct, which is why it's not happening the way NY wrote it up. It's either follow, Fed laws, 4473, NICs or nothing. So if done this way, then the FFLs would not be subject to the $10 cap? Sounds good to me. $35 per transfer is not bad. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 2:23:40 PM EDT
[#5]
The lawmakers forgot something when they were "gracious" enough to allow us to charge ten bucks. For us to do a background check, its technically a transfer out of our licensed premises which, for the last 13 years, has required that we provide a lock with the transfer. Most locks that pass the NY requirements tend to run in the $8-9 range. Plus, its a service , which requires that it be taxed...so on top of the lock and the tax taken out of the $10, how are FFLs supposed to make money? I'll do it as a service to my customers, but the politicians should be tarred and feathered for thinking they're doing us a favor as FFLs
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Posted: 3/16/2013 2:31:07 PM EDT
[#6]
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dosquattros: answering your question without quoting all the gobly gook. Not just anyone can do a NICS check. only a FFL can do it. we are registered with NICS. can only perform a NICS in lieu of a completed form 4473. it has to be logged into bound book and logged out at completion of transfer. no ifs and or buts. Their ultimate goal is two-pronged...maybe even three pronged. -Make gun transfers as difficult as possible. -Get as many serial numbers and owners information as possible captured..a lot of old guns that predate 1968 and have no owners information readily available to the grabbers will get their data captured through this requirement ove the coming years. -Once they have enough owners ID'd, if they know you have guns X Y and Z and suddenly that gun shows up in someone elses hands, or they pass some universal registration requirement down the road and you don't have gun X that they can prove you bought on January 10 2019 through some FFLs records, they'll go after you for an unregistered sale or disposal of gun X. These things are incremental. They don't expect immediate compliance or success, but they're happy to wait a few decades to get what they want |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 2:32:04 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 3/16/2013 3:08:39 PM EDT
[#8]
And nary a criminal will be effected by it.
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Posted: 3/16/2013 4:31:39 PM EDT
[#9]
To be honest, I think its a little simpler than what people are making it out to be....
Number one, dealers have to comply with the federal requirements. So, just like any other transfer, a gun will have to be logged in, a 4473 filled out by the buyer, and logged out. The only thing the SAFE act is adding in is the possibility that the state police will come up with an extra form that has to be filled out by the dealer. Until they come up with the form, its not an issue. It may come to pass that they will say that the 4473 meets their requirement. ARTICLE 39-DDD PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS SECTION 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS. S 898. PRIVATE SALE OR DISPOSAL OF FIREARMS, RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.
1. IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER REQUIREMENTS PURSUANT TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAW, ALL SALES, EXCHANGES OR DISPOSALS OF FIREARMS, RIFLES OR SHOTGUNS SHALL BE CONDUCTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS SECTION UNLESS SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED BY A LICENSED IMPORTER, LICENSED MANUFACTURER OR LICENSED DEALER, AS THOSE TERMS ARE DEFINED IN 18 USC S 922, WHEN SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THAT PERSON'S FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE OR SUCH SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL IS BETWEEN MEMBERS OF AN IMMEDIATE FAMILY. FOR PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION, "IMMEDIATE FAMILY" SHALL MEAN SPOUSES, DOMESTIC PARTNERS, CHILDREN AND STEP-CHIL DREN. 2. BEFORE ANY SALE, EXCHANGE OR DISPOSAL PURSUANT TO THIS ARTICLE, A NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK MUST BE COMPLETED BY A DEALER WHO CONSENTS TO CONDUCT SUCH CHECK, AND UPON COMPLETION OF SUCH BACK GROUND CHECK, SHALL COMPLETE A DOCUMENT, THE FORM OF WHICH SHALL BE APPROVED BY THE SUPERINTENDENT OF STATE POLICE, THAT IDENTIFIES AND CONFIRMS THAT SUCH CHECK WAS PERFORMED. 3. ALL DEALERS SHALL MAINTAIN A RECORD OF SUCH TRANSACTIONS CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND SUCH RECORD SHALL BE MAINTAINED ON THE PREMISES MENTIONED AND DESCRIBED IN THE LICENSE AND SHALL BE OPEN AT ALL REASONABLE HOURS FOR INSPECTION BY ANY PEACE OFFICER, ACTING PURSUANT TO HIS OR HER SPECIAL DUTIES, OR POLICE OFFICER. 4. A DEALER MAY REQUIRE THAT ANY SALE OR TRANSFER CONDUCTED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION BE SUBJECT TO A FEE OF NOT TO EXCEED TEN DOLLARS PER TRANSACTION. 5. ANY RECORD PRODUCED PURSUANT TO THIS SECTION AND ANY TRANSMISSION THEREOF TO ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY SHALL NOT BE CONSIDERED A PUBLIC RECORD FOR PURPOSES OF ARTICLE SIX OF THE PUBLIC OFFICERS LAW. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 5:12:21 PM EDT
[#10]
"To be honest, I think its a little simpler than what people are making it out to be....
Number one, dealers have to comply with the federal requirements. So, just like any other transfer, a gun will have to be logged in, a 4473 filled out by the buyer, and logged out. The only thing the SAFE act is adding in is the possibility that the state police will come up with an extra form that has to be filled out by the dealer. Until they come up with the form, its not an issue. It may come to pass that they will say that the 4473 meets their requirement." So in the mean time, all I have to do is go to the gunshop down the road that gets $75 for one side of a transfer, and tell him he has to charge me $10 for both. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 6:35:36 PM EDT
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 6:42:16 PM EDT
[#12]
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 6:44:56 PM EDT
[#13]
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"To be honest, I think its a little simpler than what people are making it out to be....
Number one, dealers have to comply with the federal requirements. So, just like any other transfer, a gun will have to be logged in, a 4473 filled out by the buyer, and logged out. The only thing the SAFE act is adding in is the possibility that the state police will come up with an extra form that has to be filled out by the dealer. Until they come up with the form, its not an issue. It may come to pass that they will say that the 4473 meets their requirement." So in the mean time, all I have to do is go to the gunshop down the road that gets $75 for one side of a transfer, and tell him he has to charge me $10 for both. Paying the 75 will definitely suck, but I guess the issue becomes as Rkbar mentioned .. once this goes into an FFL's books, does that mean it is no longer a private party sale and now the dealer can charge what he normally charges? |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 7:03:06 PM EDT
[#14]
If they know each other, the sale happened pre-2013 and the buyer is just getting around to picking it up now.
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Posted: 3/16/2013 7:05:14 PM EDT
[#15]
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Not obligated to do them. Especially seeing how supposedly we can't charge more than$10 for said transfer. Not gonna happen. This was by design by the libs, makes it fiscally impossible for the average FFL to make a living. And if the transfer goes south to "straw man" country, he's probably legally up the creek. The nearest ffl to me is like 45 fucking minutes. If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody hears it ... |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 7:15:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Why the F are you all playing these silly games?! It's time to move out of that communist state folks! Come south to the Free States!
You'll never get NY to change it's laws as long as there are enough welfare/entitlement recipients there to keep voting these clowns into office... you'll never win. Time to wake up and smell the shit you stepped in. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 7:53:11 PM EDT
[#17]
This is probably going to sound dumb what about indian reservation transfers? anyone thought of this?
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Posted: 3/16/2013 8:12:48 PM EDT
[#18]
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I'm not saying to do it but who is going to know when exactly the sale took place? Maybe the transaction occurred in December. If you wanted to really get around it (although it's a huge pain in the ass) do the "transfer" in another state. The only way to entertain an offer like this is to be insured you are not selling to five oh. You wanna take that chance? What could they do if you were in another state? They couldn't do shit. Plus what the guy could do is the same thing with his friend and then let the friend deal with the other guy. Again I'm not saying to do this but how could they prevent such a thing, launch a massive statewide sting operation just for the safe act bullshit? I'm not sure if we can travel outside of state lines for a sale, even to an FFL, can we? |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 8:55:04 PM EDT
[#19]
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Why the F are you all playing these silly games?! It's time to move out of that communist state folks! Come south to the Free States! You'll never get NY to change it's laws as long as there are enough welfare/entitlement recipients there to keep voting these clowns into office... you'll never win. Time to wake up and smell the shit you stepped in. Agreed time to move to confusing all this stuff it's all shit. Soon we will just be criminals. Screw this state. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 8:58:46 PM EDT
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. You could buy a long gun in another state at a gun show from an ffl provided that you could legally own it in you home state. Once you do this you will drive the gun back to your home state. This is legal. If you bought a gun in a private sale and did the same thing (driving across state lines), provided that you could legally own the gun in your home state, you could do it. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? Unless the seller turned you in, NY wouldn't even know any such transaction ever took place. That being said how could they prove you haven't had the gun for years? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. For that type of transaciton there is no way around going through an ffl. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an ffl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:11:00 PM EDT
[#21]
I would submit that even though a firearm is going "on the books" it still is a private sale, not just how we are used to thinking of it when talking about guns.
Yes, it goes across the dealers book for the purposes of the background check but the money is going between the buyer and seller. The firearm is not going into the dealer's business records, it's not like he is buying it and then selling it, in that case you would have sales tax to worry about too. So, it's not a private sale in the terms of ATF paperwork, but it still is a private sale when it comes to the financial aspect. Bottom line is, when two NY residents come to the dealer to transfer a firearm, the law says the fee should be no more than $10. There is nothing to say they can't charge more for an interstate transfer though. Do I agree with any of this? Absolutely not. But I don't think it is any mystery as to what the implications are, at least for this section of the legislation. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:14:11 PM EDT
[#22]
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an FFl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. Federal law does not allow a resident of Florida to purchase a pistol from his buddy in PA while visiting PA. Federal law states that you can only acquire a firearm in your own state, unless purchasing from an FFL or you inherit it. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:18:43 PM EDT
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an FFl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. Federal law does not allow a resident of Florida to purchase a pistol from his buddy in PA while visiting PA. Federal law states that you can only acquire a firearm in your own state, unless purchasing from an FFL or you inherit it. You can not buy a handgun from an FFL outside your home state, unless you have it shipped to a dealer in your State. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:22:36 PM EDT
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an FFl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. Federal law does not allow a resident of Florida to purchase a pistol from his buddy in PA while visiting PA. Federal law states that you can only acquire a firearm in your own state, unless purchasing from an FFL or you inherit it. Yeah he inherited it ;). The thing is that neither state records the serial numbers of handguns and slaps them on the back of the ccw license. Also, neither state requires that you even have a ccw license to own a handgun. You would just have to have the license on you in PA if you were from FL because it would be illegal to posses a handgun in PA without it. BTW I'm not advocating doing any of this. I'm just saying unless there is a serial number registry then how could the government know? |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:28:14 PM EDT
[#25]
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an FFl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. Federal law does not allow a resident of Florida to purchase a pistol from his buddy in PA while visiting PA. Federal law states that you can only acquire a firearm in your own state, unless purchasing from an FFL or you inherit it. You can not buy a handgun from an FFL outside your home state, unless you have it shipped to a dealer in your State. Yes true and that is more specific when it comes to handguns ... I was just getting at that you can't acquire a firearm privately outside of your home state without going through an FFL. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:37:46 PM EDT
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If anyone is near the Binghamton area, I have a friend just over the border in PA who's an ffl. His normal transfer fee is only $10. You could take your shit there, transfer it to him, have him transfer it to the buyer, and the best part is, New York has no part in it :-D PA does not require you to use an ffl for private sales though ;-) I know that, but one can't transfer across state lines without an FFL. Even if it says that how can that be regulated? They have no jurisdiction. This whole thing is a de facto gun registration. No one knows what you have. The only evidence is some 4473 in the filing cabinet of some ffl. There is nothing if the gun was around before there was a 4473. Why the fuck would anyone tell the government a damned thing? Get a throw away gun in case someone breaks in that you could just hand over to the police and fuck this shit. The p.o.s. also says that you have to go through 17 flaming hoops for ammo (eventually). I say FUAC buy in PA. That is actually federal law that says you can't buy a firearm outside of your home state unless you get it from an FFL It states that the purchaser has to be able to legally own the gun in their home state. When an ffl has to get involved (except in NY now) is when the firearm has to be mailed. If the gun falls under the "weapon you had to own before January" or whatever then this might be the case. If the gun is one that can be legally owned then how could they do anything? The transfer is what they have made mandatory not owning the gun (if its not an assault weapon). It would be on NY to do something about it and how would they know? I'm talking about a private sale. The matter is more of a pain in the ass for handguns. Since you have to register all handguns on your permit in NY then you couldn't do this. If you had a ccw license from Florida and you were a resident of Florida and you bought a pistol from your friend in PA while you were visiting then you could do a private sale of a handgun and drive it back down to Florida. Going through an FFl is another situation. On top of all of this I'm no lawyer so how this might shake out in a court of law is beyond me. I'm just posting my interpretation of this non sense. Federal law does not allow a resident of Florida to purchase a pistol from his buddy in PA while visiting PA. Federal law states that you can only acquire a firearm in your own state, unless purchasing from an FFL or you inherit it. You can not buy a handgun from an FFL outside your home state, unless you have it shipped to a dealer in your State. Yes true and that is more specific when it comes to handguns ... I was just getting at that you can't acquire a firearm privately outside of your home state without going through an FFL. This is true. I also think if your selling to someone you don't know then it should definitely go through an ffl. If its someone that is a relative or a friend that you've known your whole life then wtf? I know its the law and all and as I said I'm not suggesting doing any of this but the SAFE act is a law and how many people do you think will comply with it? The whole thing has me depressed. I wouldn't do any of this myself. Just stabbing in the dark out of frustration. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 9:59:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes true and that is more specific when it comes to handguns ... I was just getting at that you can't acquire a firearm privately outside of your home state without going through an FFL. This is true. I also think if your selling to someone you don't know then it should definitely go through an ffl. If its someone that is a relative or a friend that you've known your whole life then wtf? I know its the law and all and as I said I'm not suggesting doing any of this but the SAFE act is a law and how many people do you think will comply with it? The whole thing has me depressed. I wouldn't do any of this myself. Just stabbing in the dark out of frustration. Why is it so difficult to end quote trees? That kind of shit makes threads unreadable and gets them locked. |
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Posted: 3/16/2013 10:03:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Sorry. I didn't know that was a thing.
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Posted: 3/17/2013 12:09:02 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
....I also think if your selling to someone you don't know then it should definitely go through an ffl. If its someone that is a relative or a friend that you've known your whole life then wtf? Family sales are exempt for now, but no doubt that was a "loophole" they'll eventually try to close when they find it convenient |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 4:31:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: To be honest, I think its a little simpler than what people are making it out to be.... Number one, dealers have to comply with the federal requirements. So, just like any other transfer, a gun will have to be logged in, a 4473 filled out by the buyer, and logged out. The only thing the SAFE act is adding in is the possibility that the state police will come up with an extra form that has to be filled out by the dealer. Until they come up with the form, its not an issue. It may come to pass that they will say that the 4473 meets their requirement. Once agin Federal law PROHIBITS the type of "off the books" private transfer by an FFL the SAFE Act. requires. When you drop the gun off in person or ship the gun to an FFL for transfer it's not a "PRIVATE" transfer and the requirements of the SAFE Act including this dopey non-existent PRIVATE transfer form no longer apply. The idiots in Albany who wrote the statute obviously didn't understand that an FFL can't just run a NICS check and participate in a private firearm transfer which would subject him/her to federal administrative and criminal sanctions. The intent of the SAFE Act statute was for an FFL to run the NICS check, fill out the dopey NYSP PRIVATE transfer form and charge the $10 fee which violates both Federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI NICS system. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 4:48:25 AM EDT
[#31]
Family only if they live with you, right? Gee thanks me Lord.
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Posted: 3/17/2013 8:01:32 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
To be honest, I think its a little simpler than what people are making it out to be.... Number one, dealers have to comply with the federal requirements. So, just like any other transfer, a gun will have to be logged in, a 4473 filled out by the buyer, and logged out. The only thing the SAFE act is adding in is the possibility that the state police will come up with an extra form that has to be filled out by the dealer. Until they come up with the form, its not an issue. It may come to pass that they will say that the 4473 meets their requirement. Once agin Federal law PROHIBITS the type of "off the books" private transfer by an FFL the SAFE Act. requires. When you drop the gun off in person or ship the gun to an FFL for transfer it's not a "PRIVATE" transfer and the requirements of the SAFE Act including this dopey non-existent PRIVATE transfer form no longer apply. The idiots in Albany who wrote the statute obviously didn't understand that an FFL can't just run a NICS check and participate in a private firearm transfer which would subject him/her to federal administrative and criminal sanctions. The intent of the SAFE Act statute was for an FFL to run the NICS check, fill out the dopey NYSP PRIVATE transfer form and charge the $10 fee which violates both Federal law and the rules/regulations of the ATF/FBI NICS system. I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand what I am saying.... The beginning of the section says "IN ADDITION TO ANY OTHER REQUIREMENTS PURSUANT TO STATE AND FEDERAL LAW". So, logging the firearm in and out of the bound book and the 4473 are still required and allowed for under the SAFE act. You are saying that this means that the sale of the firearm is no longer "private" due to the fact that the firearm is on the FFL's bound book. That is true from that perspective. However, from the position of the Tax and Finance people, it is still a private sale. If I'm a dealer and two guys come in, one with a gun for sale for $500 and a buyer. I take the gun, log it in to my books from the seller, the buyer fills out the 4473, I do a NICS check which gets a proceed, I log the gun out to the buyer, maybe I fill out the non existent NYS form if/when they come up with one, and I get paid $10 for the service. At the end of the process, the seller has $500 in his pocket and the buyer has the gun. Did the $500 pass through me, the dealer? No. Did I collect sales tax on the $500? No. Do my financial records show that I purchased the gun for $500 from seller and sold it to the buyer for $510? No. When you buy a car from someone via a "private sale" it's kind of the same idea. The DMV is there as the middle man to transfer the title etc. The cash goes from the buyer to the seller and the buyer gets the car. Neither the buyer or seller is a dealer. The only difference is that sales tax has to be collected.....and how much you wanna bet they will try something like that for firearms transfers someday? |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 8:44:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
At the end of the process, the seller has $500 in his pocket and the buyer has the gun. Did the $500 pass through me, the dealer? No. Did I collect sales tax on the $500? No. Do my financial records show that I purchased the gun for $500 from seller and sold it to the buyer for $510? No. Just something else they over looked. Give them a little time, once they realize they can get tax on $500 instead of $10 they will. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 9:03:22 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
At the end of the process, the seller has $500 in his pocket and the buyer has the gun. Did the $500 pass through me, the dealer? No. Did I collect sales tax on the $500? No. Do my financial records show that I purchased the gun for $500 from seller and sold it to the buyer for $510? No. Just something else they over looked. Give them a little time, once they realize they can get tax on $500 instead of $10 they will. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that technically the transaction is in fact taxable. Flea market vendors must have Sales Tax certificates and file returns. The only reason that taxes are not collected is that there was never any record of private sales of long guns. Private sales of handguns are so minimal in comparison that they are probably off the radar. But yes, I suspect that in next years budget Hitler will push for revenue from private sales. Collected by the dealer who does the transfer, Of course, the dealer has no way to know how much the sale is being made for, but unless you file a bill of sale , they can do just like DMV and use the blue book to set a value. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 9:05:23 AM EDT
[#35]
jma5000 let's stick to the SAFE Act nonsense as you are mixing up apples and oranges with your NYS sales tax stuff.
If the gun is being transferred by an FFL it is not a "private transfer" for the simple fact that you as the seller are transferring the gun to a federally licensed dealer and not an unlicensed person. The FFL might or might not transfer the gun to the intended buyer for a number of reasons and you as the seller have NOTHING to do with anything related to a subsequent transfer at this point. Once again the SAFE act does not regulate transfers of guns to a licensed dealer which is all you have done when you transferred the gun to the FFL. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 9:09:06 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Just something else they over looked. Give them a little time, once they realize they can get tax on $500 instead of $10 they will. Intra-state transfers of guns and FFL transfer services have always been fully taxable under NYS sales/use tax regulations. Nothing has changed as far as that's concerned. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 9:54:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
jma5000 let's stick to the SAFE Act nonsense as you are mixing up apples and oranges with your NYS sales tax stuff. If the gun is being transferred by an FFL it is not a "private transfer" for the simple fact that you as the seller are transferring the gun to a federally licensed dealer and not an unlicensed person. The FFL might or might not transfer the gun to the intended buyer for a number of reasons and you as the seller have NOTHING to do with anything related to a subsequent transfer at this point. Once again the SAFE act does not regulate transfers of guns to a licensed dealer which is all you have done when you transferred the gun to the FFL. That's right. If the unSAFE Act had been written to specify that all transfers required a background check BUT that it could, for example, be done at the local Police Department or Court House, that would have been a different matter. Instead it gets the dealers involved. Dealers must abide by Federal Law. Any time an FFL does an out of State transfer for you, he must book the gun in and out. So TECHNICALLY he is selling the gun to you. The only reason he does not collect Sales Tax on the sale price is that the sale transaction was actually done out of State, and he lacks jurisdiction to collect that tax. So he is selling the gun to the buyer for the amount of the transfer fee, and THAT is the amount that is taxable. Since the dealer is running the gun through his books, in my opinion he also incurs liability: If that gun is later used in a crime, the Police and civil lawyers will be knocking on his door. That is part of his general business liability, which is why he is entitled to get paid for it. Ten Dollars just does not cover it. I don't know if the idiots in Albany were stupid or this is a deliberate plot to end gun sales, but either way it does not pass the smell test. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 10:15:59 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: If the unSAFE Act had been written to specify that all transfers required a background check BUT that it could, for example, be done at the local Police Department or Court House, that would have been a different matter. This is something I would have preferred. In fact, I would have added the Post Office to the list since they are a Federal agency as well (a website or smart phone app would be nice too). But since the real goal of Universal Background checks is to stifle and eliminate the private market, quash gun sales over all and create a backdoor national registry (Schumer himself admitted that), why would they make it is convenient as possible to run a check? |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 10:17:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: I don't know if the idiots in Albany were stupid or this is a deliberate plot to end gun sales, but either way it does not pass the smell test. Based on this and other SAFE Act gibberish statutes my vote is for dumb and stupid. It's not even in understandable English nevermind a properly crafted criminal offense statute. 21 § 265.36 Unlawful possession of a large capacity ammunition feeding 22 device. 23 It shall be unlawful for a person to knowingly possess a large capaci- 24 ty ammunition feeding device manufactured before September thirteenth, 25 nineteen hundred ninety-four, and if such person lawfully possessed such 26 large capacity feeding device before the effective date of the chapter 27 of the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this section, that has 28 a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, 29 more than ten rounds of ammunition. 30 An individual who has a reasonable belief that such device is of such 31 a character that it may lawfully be possessed and who surrenders or 32 lawfully disposes of such device within thirty days of being notified by 33 law enforcement or county licensing officials that such possession is 34 unlawful shall not be guilty of this offense. It shall be a rebuttable 35 presumption that such person knows that such large capacity ammunition 36 feeding device may not be lawfully possessed if he or she has been 37 contacted by law enforcement or county licensing officials and informed 38 that such device may not be lawfully possessed. 39 Unlawful possession of a large capacity ammunition feeding device is a 40 class A misdemeanor. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 10:32:02 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the unSAFE Act had been written to specify that all transfers required a background check BUT that it could, for example, be done at the local Police Department or Court House, that would have been a different matter. This is something I would have preferred. In fact, I would have added the Post Office to the list since they are a Federal agency as well (a website or smart phone app would be nice too). But since the real goal of Universal Background checks is to stifle and eliminate the private market, quash gun sales over all and create a backdoor national registry (Schumer himself admitted that), why would they make it is convenient as possible to run a check? There is NO doubt that the ultimate intent is to ban all guns. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 11:16:35 AM EDT
[#41]
Well lookee here. The ATF just released a spanky new set of regulations rescinding their prior position on facilitating private party transfers.
http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/procedures/031513-procedure-2013-1.pdf |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 11:40:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Well lookee here. The ATF just released a spanky new set of regulations rescinding their prior position on facilitating private party transfers. http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/procedures/031513-procedure-2013-1.pdf So in other words, the assumptions here are correct. The dealer must book the gun into inventory, comply with any State merchandise hold periods, and provide a lock at the dealers expense. It also means that there is basically no way to do a transfer in Suffolk County, as the law, at least the last time I bought a used gun there, required the dealer to hold the used gun for two weeks, which invokes all the other nonsense. |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 11:43:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Well lookee here. The ATF just released a spanky new set of regulations rescinding their prior position on facilitating private party transfers. http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/procedures/031513-procedure-2013-1.pdf Thanks. Forwarded that to my Civil Sgt who was asking me about this very thing a couple of days ago. Also my boss, a fellow FFL |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 12:06:59 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Well lookee here. The ATF just released a spanky new set of regulations rescinding their prior position on facilitating private party transfers. http://atf.gov/regulations-rulings/procedures/031513-procedure-2013-1.pdf So, now there's at least a procedure. I bet they are getting ready for a national universal background check for all gun sales. It makes sense enough. Seller doesn't relinquish firearm until the NICS check is a proceed and there should be no problems. Other than the max of $10 transfer fee that is. Thanks for posting that. Must be the official open letter to all FFL's is in the mail???? lol |
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Posted: 3/17/2013 12:31:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
It also means that there is basically no way to do a transfer in Suffolk County, as the law, at least the last time I bought a used gun there, required the dealer to hold the used gun for two weeks, which invokes all the other nonsense. Not sure what law you're talking about. I've had in and outs done on the spot, Acquisition and Disposition done seconds apart. |
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Posted: 3/18/2013 8:55:33 AM EDT
[#46]
Just got a letter from NYSP on the private sale issue today. Any of you other FFLs?
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Posted: 3/18/2013 9:00:30 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Just got a letter from NYSP on the private sale issue today. Any of you other FFLs? Any chance you willing to divulge? |
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Posted: 3/18/2013 9:03:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Any chance you willing to divulge? Talked about the Federal regs and how private sales have to go through a NICS check per ATF guidance that was mentioned earlier in the thread, and had a second page for a sign up for a SAFE act email list |
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Posted: 3/18/2013 9:14:55 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Just got a letter from NYSP on the private sale issue today. Any of you other FFLs? Nothing yet |
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Posted: 3/18/2013 9:25:28 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Any chance you willing to divulge? Talked about the Federal regs and how private sales have to go through a NICS check per ATF guidance that was mentioned earlier in the thread, and had a second page for a sign up for a SAFE act email list 
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