At the request of some students, here are some pictures from past classes in FL and GA.

We have a pistol class coming up in November back at Creekside Firing Range.

Be sure to monitor the HTF and the Course schedule page on the website: www.bushidotactical.com

St Augustine:





















South Florida - Southwest Ranches







This student attended the course with only one arm and did an outstanding job. I learned so much from him just from watching and working with him.













Taylorsville, GA



















Hope to see some of the HTF members at the upcoming classes.

What's the reason that many of these people don't have slings on their weapons, or aren't using the slings that ARE on their weapons?  PARTICULARLY the guy with only one arm.

cool pics, thanks

Whats the skinny on the barricades? They look good.

Nice photos!

Quoted: What's the reason that many of these people don't have slings on their weapons, or aren't using the slings that ARE on their weapons?  PARTICULARLY the guy with only one arm.

Well, to give you the readers digest version, they restrict the shooter in so many positions plus become a hazard for many reasons. As to what they are, I recommend attending a class to get first hand experience and a detailed explanation.

Also, look at Larry Vickers website under the Tactical Tips section as he explains the exact same reasons about slings which is what we teach in our courses plus we go into a lot more detail with demonstrations from first hand experiences.

It is a lot easier to see it for yourself from the demonstration and full presentation at the class.

Hope you will make the next one when we can get it set up.

Me thinks it's maybe time we planted grass at Creekside.  Nice soft grass.

Quoted: Me thinks it's maybe time we planted grass at Creekside.  Nice soft grass.

It is soft...when it rains.  

Quoted: Quoted: What's the reason that many of these people don't have slings on their weapons, or aren't using the slings that ARE on their weapons?  PARTICULARLY the guy with only one arm. Well, to give you the readers digest version, they restrict the shooter in so many positions plus become a hazard for many reasons. As to what they are, I recommend attending a class to get first hand experience and a detailed explanation. Also, look at Larry Vickers website under the Tactical Tips section as he explains the exact same reasons about slings which is what we teach in our courses plus we go into a lot more detail with demonstrations from first hand experiences. It is a lot easier to see it for yourself from the demonstration and full presentation at the class. Hope you will make the next one when we can get it set up.

Larry Vickers advocates a 2-point sling, not NO sling at all.  If he advocated no sling, I doubt he'd put his name on a sling from BFG.  In those pictures, people have NO sling.  That's why I wanted to know YOUR reasons for teaching that.  Either those people came unprepared for a class, or the instructor had them run without the sling.  How do you do transitions with no sling?  What do you do if you're wounded with no sling?  Your weapon has to be laid on the ground to do anything one-handed.  You're combat-ineffective.  I have a pretty open mind, so please, explain some of the reasons why you're teaching people to not use a sling.  

In some pictures, I see people with 2-point Larry Vickers slings just dangling there, not being used, which would pose a greater entanglement issue to me, and in others, no slings at all on the rifle.  Then in other pictures, there are rifles just laying on the ground, which is what I would expect to see when you don't use a sling.  How do you control your weapon with no sling?  One hand is ALWAYS tied up.  If you do a transition, and have to hold your primary with one hand, how do you reload your sidearm?  One-handed?  Every time?  

Please, explain this to me.  I want to understand.

That guy with one arm is hard-core.

I've seen a guy with both arms gone after the elbow load, fire, and clear an AR15.

That was impressive.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What's the reason that many of these people don't have slings on their weapons, or aren't using the slings that ARE on their weapons?  PARTICULARLY the guy with only one arm. Well, to give you the readers digest version, they restrict the shooter in so many positions plus become a hazard for many reasons. As to what they are, I recommend attending a class to get first hand experience and a detailed explanation. Also, look at Larry Vickers website under the Tactical Tips section as he explains the exact same reasons about slings which is what we teach in our courses plus we go into a lot more detail with demonstrations from first hand experiences. It is a lot easier to see it for yourself from the demonstration and full presentation at the class. Hope you will make the next one when we can get it set up. Larry Vickers advocates a 2-point sling, not NO sling at all.  If he advocated no sling, I doubt he'd put his name on a sling from BFG.  In those pictures, people have NO sling.  That's why I wanted to know YOUR reasons for teaching that.  Either those people came unprepared for a class, or the instructor had them run without the sling.  How do you do transitions with no sling?  What do you do if you're wounded with no sling?  Your weapon has to be laid on the ground to do anything one-handed.  You're combat-ineffective.  I have a pretty open mind, so please, explain some of the reasons why you're teaching people to not use a sling.   In some pictures, I see people with 2-point Larry Vickers slings just dangling there, not being used, which would pose a greater entanglement issue to me, and in others, no slings at all on the rifle.  Then in other pictures, there are rifles just laying on the ground, which is what I would expect to see when you don't use a sling.  How do you control your weapon with no sling?  One hand is ALWAYS tied up.  If you do a transition, and have to hold your primary with one hand, how do you reload your sidearm?  One-handed?  Every time?   Please, explain this to me.  I want to understand.

Footrat,

I appreciate your willingness to want to learn and for having an open mind about things but what I have found is that some points just don't come across as they should when being explained in writing where as actually attending a class and seeing it first hand being demonstrated. The demonstration should give you lots of food for thought and allow you to evaluate your gear and possibly even rethink a few things.

For the record though, everyone was told to use the sling that they had brought, I made sure of that. As the course progressed, students decided for themselves what worked and didn't work for themselves which lead to students preferring no sling "as such" attached to their rifles but still accessible if needed later on. We believe in having and using slings but just from a different stand point which again is explained in detail at the class.

As part of the class, we teach weapon manipulation and transition drills with and without slings attached but that in itself will take about an hour of the course curriculum to be properly explained and demonstrated.

We also teach using your rifle in conjunction with your sidearm if a transition is required and will show you that both are needed in certain scenarios or situations ie: Low Light.

Hope to see you at the next carbine class at Creekside.

One side not on slings not to derail this thread.  Make sure that if you arent going to wear the sling make sure that it doesnt hang low enough to go over your muzzle.  Although I blasted my sling in the heat of the moment it had no adverse effect on trajectory and I did hit the target.

Quoted: That guy with one arm is hard-core. I've seen a guy with both arms gone after the elbow load, fire, and clear an AR15. That was impressive.

That guy could charge his charging handle and lock his bolt to the rear all with only one hand.

It was very impressive to watch and learn from him.

Quoted: Although I blasted my sling in the heat of the moment it had no adverse effect on trajectory and I did hit the target.

Maybe it did affect the trajectory so you hit the target.  

Quoted: Footrat, I appreciate your willingness to want to learn and for having an open mind about things but what I have found is that some points just don't come across as they should when being explained in writing where as actually attending a class and seeing it first hand being demonstrated. The demonstration should give you lots of food for thought and allow you to evaluate your gear and possibly even rethink a few things. For the record though, everyone was told to use the sling that they had brought, I made sure of that. As the course progressed, students decided for themselves what worked and didn't work for themselves which lead to students preferring no sling "as such" attached to their rifles but still accessible if needed later on. We believe in having and using slings but just from a different stand point which again is explained in detail at the class. As part of the class, we teach weapon manipulation and transition drills with and without slings attached but that in itself will take about an hour of the course curriculum to be properly explained and demonstrated. We also teach using your rifle in conjunction with your sidearm if a transition is required and will show you that both are needed in certain scenarios or situations ie: Low Light. Hope to see you at the next carbine class at Creekside.

Are you serious?  That was a GREAT answer, if you're a politician on TV facing a tough interview.  You did not manage to answer a single question of mine.  These are the basic fundamentals of your class, and you cannot articulate them here, where you have the time to type out and organize a thought exactly how you want it to read?  You're telling me that the only way to understand this concept is to pay to attend your class?  

If you're going to come here and post pictures of your classes, please be prepared to explain what we're seeing in those pictures.  Put them in context.  I'm not calling BS, but I haven't gotten a straight answer to ONE question.  I'm not asking for a condensed class in one post, but an instructor should be able to easily lay down the mindset for why a sling is not necessary in a rifle fight.  Is a holster necessary in a pistol fight, or do students take those off halfway through as well?  

Footrat,

To answer your question. A sling is a holster, nothing more. When you use your rifle, it is in your hands like a pistol would be and when you are done, you holster back up, same applies to a sling.

Shooting on a range in front of paper is a lot different to gun fighting and that is what we teach at our courses from personal experiences.

If you are open minded and want to learn, spend the money and come and see the demonstration and find out first hand why we teach it that way, others did and they got a lot out of the course.

Quoted: Footrat, To answer your question. A sling is a holster, nothing more. When you use your rifle, it is in your hands like a pistol would be and when you are done, you holster back up, same applies to a sling. Shooting on a range in front of paper is a lot different to gun fighting and that is what we teach at our courses from personal experiences. If you are open minded and want to learn, spend the money and come and see the demonstration and find out first hand why we teach it that way, others did and they got a lot out of the course.

When you use a holster, it's already on your body.  You don't have to put it back on to use it.  This is particularly important with a rifle, because you have to transition from a rifle to a pistol, not the other way around.  What does the one-armed man do for transitions?  He doesn't even have a sling ON the rifle.  He just sits his rifle down and comes back for it?  I would give more credit to your argument if people actually HAD slings on their rifles to quickly put back on.  That would be a slow, ridiculous way to do it, but at least they COULD.  There are a number of people in those pictures without slings on their rifles at all.  That is akin to leaving your holster in your car, because you can't just put a sling back on the rifle in the middle of a fight.  That's not even getting into what to do if someone is wounded and needs treatment or extrication, if you have to go hands-on, if you yourself are wounded and must still fight, if you have to reload your secondary before you can get your primary back in the fight, etc.

I really just can't believe that a FIGHTING class would even ALLOW students to run rifles without slings, much less actually advocate it.  In your equipment list, you list a rifle sling as optional.  Meaning, people don't even have to BRING one.  So your holster analogy goes out the window.

Yes, I'm being argumentative.  As an instructor, you should be able to back up what you teach.  Particularly because you're teaching on a subject that makes a difference in the way people think, the way they fight, and potentially whether or not they live or die.  It's that serious.  A sling is NOT optional in a rifle fight.  I thought I would give you a chance to explain why it might be, but you've avoided the questions and then given answers that don't make sense.  Maybe if there are students that can articulate a good, logical reason for not even bringing or attaching a sling, I'll change my mind.

footrat ... not to be a prick or anything but are you taking Joes class?  

Ive heard from Joe himself ....."you will never hear the words 'let em hang' out of my mouth during this course"

It's unlikely that I will take any classes from Bushido.  I like my instructors to be able to explain WHY things are done the way they're done, and to make sense when they do.  When you tell me that a sling is a holster, and you just reholster when you need to, but you have people without slings even attached to their rifles, I just can't get into the teachings.  

I looked at the photos on the website, and they're more of the same from this class: people making love to their cover, and still sticking out from behind it like it's IPSC or something.  A lot of blading the target and leaning back while shooting.  A lot of IPSC-style barriers, with cute little holes in them.  Sitting down?  Sitting Indian-style, on your ass, with your ankles crossed.  SERIOUSLY.  Using barriers to brace the rifle, or at least making contact with the barriers.  Chicken wings sticking out from around barriers being braced against.  

This looks like IPSC-style "tactical" shooting.  It does not look like a fighting rifle class at all.

Footrat,

Like I said before, people look at pictures and think that they can tell everything from it and typically only the bad points.

We can't please everyone and we typically enjoy teaching people who want to learn and want to be there for the right reasons.

Without seeing or hearing what we have to offer first hand and why (as I tried explaining earlier) before trying to bad mouth me as an Instructor, then it is honestly best for you to seek instruction somewhere else.

If you took a little time to do some research on your own and read a few AAR, you could find out why from others who have attended the class and walked away with a wealth of knowledge.

It is very easy for people to sit there and criticize an instructor and pictures online and know nothing about them or their past experiences plus what they have to offer.

I am not going to let you turn this thread into something it was not intended to be as much as I appreciate your "open mindedness" to want to learn.

We run a no nonsense course with real world tactics and knowledge. It is not for everyone unfortunately.

All the best to you.

 

The whole reason I asked a question in the first place was because I know you can't tell everything that's going on in a picture.  However, YOU haven't told me what's going on in the picture, either.  What you've done is contradict yourself, speak in circles, and generally tell me that I can't understand it unless I attend a course.  That's complete horse puckey.  This is a discussion forum.  I intended to initiate a discussion about the mindset and tactics you teach in your classes.  I wanted to learn.  You refuse to explain, so of course there's no discussion.  It's turned into an argument because I still want to know what the reasoning is behind having no sling attached to a rifle, but I feel like I've got to pry it out of you.  All you've said so far is stuff that doesn't make sense, and then you've told me to take a class and look at AAR's.  I wasn't asking for anyone else to explain it except the instructor, the one who GIVES the class, who KNOWS the reasons behind it best.  You have failed to even TRY to do that.  

Quoted: Slings are not a requirement in this carbine course. If you have one bring it. In fact if you have more than one type of sling bring them. This course will help you learn alot about how well your equipment works and more importantly what doesn't work. There are many of Wade's drills that will quickly make you realize the limitations of some slings as well as other equipment. Note: I wore my single point sling throughout most of the course (as can be seen from a couple of the photos). I did however run one drill that I HAD to disconnect my sling from my rifle in order to get into a position to make the shot. There was also a timed combat scenario drill that I chose to run without the sling. Some drills even start with your rifle grounded. Remember, most of us are not going to have our rifles already slung on our person when the SHTF. I see a sling as a holster for my rifle, but I also recognize its limitations. Others may have different opinions, but that's what makes training with different instructors so great... You get different perspectives from each and it's your choice as to how, when and if you apply what you've learned. By the way, in reviewing the photos I see many two point slings still attached to the rifles and a couple other slings worn in addition to mine. In order to truely get an understanding of the answer to your question I'd recommend attending one of Bushido Tactical's Carbine courses. You won't be disappointed. Henry

This discussion is done. You are more than welcome to attend a class or choose another institution.

That sounds like a fun IDPA stage.

Here is my take on the sling issue.  The technique is just another tool in the toolbox.  There may be a time when fighting without a sling is advantageous.  How many of us that have only trained a certain way could fight in that fashion?  When I was in the Army the only time we slung a weapon was in a chow line or on a parade field.  Now I "holster" my weapon with a 2 point sling because there are more benefits to doing it that way versus what I learned in the Army.  I have also practiced unslinging from the weapon in certain scenarios.  Wade/Bushido's technique could easily be expanded such that a sling is easily detached from the weapon for situations where the fighter would rather be unencumbered i.e. a single point sling with HK hook.

We need to think about the concept here and it's possible uses and refrain from getting hung up on the details.  For example, guys have slings dangling from their weapons because they aren't quick detachable.  They came to class expecting to learn the same old techniques and their rifles are set up accordingly.  Every class should envoke new ideas and make you go home and reevaluate your gear.

Thinking you'll never fight without a sling is akin to thinking you'll never need a reload for your carry piece.    

I guess I'm just not anxious to drop my hard earned training dollars to learn unorthodox methods. I'm with Footrat on this one.

Why are there no instructors listed on the website?  No names, bios, nothing?  I'm trying to take this stuff seriously, but I'm having a hard time.  It says that instructor bios will be discussed at the class.  Every single reputable training company puts its instructors' bios on their site.  LMS, Tactical Response, Gunsite, USSA, Martial Gun, etc.  So, basically, I have no idea what dude is going to be teaching until I show up.  If you cannot attract permanent instructors, something is wrong.  If your instructors are so secret-squirrel that their bios cannot be published online, they're in the wrong business.  If they are permanent instructors, and LEGIT, they should have no problem with people knowing who they are, and what they've done.  Why they're qualified to teach me.  After all, I can memorize course content and regurgitate it, but knowing WHY something is done that way, and being able to relate it to real-life makes the difference.  So far, I've heard about hypothetical situations in which a sling is optional, and might get in your way.  I've heard about instructors who are so qualified that their qualifications cannot be discussed until you've paid for a class, scheduled two days' worth of time, and driven to the class.  I've heard that some concepts simply cannot be understood outside of a class.  That's the summation of everything that's been said by SSA: It's so awesome, but you'll have to pay to find out.  That's unheard of.  Any other training company out there will tell you what their mindset and methods are.  

And I've searched for the AAR's, but I can't search in the HTF section.  Here's where I stand on that, though: your replies and your website indicate that you're either full of crap or too lazy to actually post anything with real content and explanation.  I'll state it plainly, I'm leaning toward the former, not the later.  I am not usually this confrontational here.  I come here to have fun, talk to guys that share my interests, and to learn.  In my repeated attempts to learn during the course of this thread, I have learned nothing.  I started off very inquisitive, but I'm now quite frustrated, which is why I'm so aggressive in my attempts to get you to actually answer a question.  I ordinarily would ignore this thread, but I personally know some of the guys who might take this class, and I'm wondering what they might learn that could be detrimental.  I myself was curious about the course content when I entered the thread.  

Quoted: I guess I'm just not anxious to drop my hard earned training dollars to learn unorthodox methods. I'm with Footrat on this one.

Shit, unorthodox is fine, if it works.  Look at how training has changed over the last few years alone.  I simply want to know WHY.  I'll parallel my occupation.  In the medical field, you can teach anyone to do procedures.  IV's, for example, are a flashy skill that are often necessary, easy to learn, yet require a STRONG understanding of WHY and why NOT before you go sticking someone.  Understanding the situations in which an IV administration of fluids or drugs could kill someone, and when it could save their life.  I view any other training the same way.  If you cannot verbalize WHY something is done, all you're doing is regurgitating.  You're reading out of a textbook.  You're not teaching, and I'm not learning.  

Quoted: Quoted: I guess I'm just not anxious to drop my hard earned training dollars to learn unorthodox methods. I'm with Footrat on this one. Shit, unorthodox is fine, if it works.  Look at how training has changed over the last few years alone.  I simply want to know WHY.  I'll parallel my occupation.  In the medical field, you can teach anyone to do procedures.  IV's, for example, are a flashy skill that are often necessary, easy to learn, yet require a STRONG understanding of WHY and why NOT before you go sticking someone.  Understanding the situations in which an IV administration of fluids or drugs could kill someone, and when it could save their life.  I view any other training the same way.  If you cannot verbalize WHY something is done, all you're doing is regurgitating.  You're reading out of a textbook.  You're not teaching, and I'm not learning.

If surviving a real life encounter from someone using my sling against me in a close quarter entry and my personal thoughts and opinion on slings vary because of it, then I guess I will stick with being unorthodox.

We believe in slings, just not being attached to you and your weapon. Having a sling on your weapon or on your body is one thing but we don't advocate being attached to both during a gunfight.

There is a time and place to use slings and people only show you the PRO's about slings, never the negative factors behind them. Until you actually encounter a real life situation, you will always use them a certain way and not know any better.

We teach and show you both aspects of the spectrum, the PRO's and CON's of slings. I am a show you kind of instructor, not tell me. Seeing is sometimes believing as anyone can tell you how things are but not many show you.

Sorry if we disagree on these issues but if I can pass on realistic information to students wanting to learn new and unorthodox techniques and tactics, then I will continue to do so.

We are the first to tell you that there are more than one way to do things, and that nothing is ever "The Way". We try and let the students decide for themselves if their sling will work during our drills and scenarios and it is up to them to evaluate their gear to see what works and what doesn't.

Everyone has made valid points but only knowing and doing things one way doesn't mean that other ways don't work either.

This could've been simply answered at the beginning by saying that slings can be used as tow straps in contact range fights, thus you don't advocate attaching the rifle to yourself by the sling during these fights.  If that's a proper summary, then please use this simple answer in the future, instead of being vague.  I'm not the only one to ask this question.  I saw in the FL HTF that someone else asked the exact same question in response to these exact same photos.  Had he been as argumentative as I, you would've had TWO of these things going on, but he didn't really fight for a clear, distinct answer.  He wasn't given one in that thread, either.

Quoted:
Why are there no instructors listed on the website?  No names, bios, nothing?  I'm trying to take this stuff seriously, but I'm having a hard time.  It says that instructor bios will be discussed at the class.  Every single reputable training company puts its instructors' bios on their site.  LMS, Tactical Response, Gunsite, USSA, Martial Gun, etc.  So, basically, I have no idea what dude is going to be teaching until I show up.  If you cannot attract permanent instructors, something is wrong.  If your instructors are so secret-squirrel that their bios cannot be published online, they're in the wrong business.  If they are permanent instructors, and LEGIT, they should have no problem with people knowing who they are, and what they've done.  Why they're qualified to teach me.  After all, I can memorize course content and regurgitate it, but knowing WHY something is done that way, and being able to relate it to real-life makes the difference.  So far, I've heard about hypothetical situations in which a sling is optional, and might get in your way.  I've heard about instructors who are so qualified that their qualifications cannot be discussed until you've paid for a class, scheduled two days' worth of time, and driven to the class.  I've heard that some concepts simply cannot be understood outside of a class.  That's the summation of everything that's been said by SSA: It's so awesome, but you'll have to pay to find out.  That's unheard of.  Any other training company out there will tell you what their mindset and methods are.  

And I've searched for the AAR's, but I can't search in the HTF section.  Here's where I stand on that, though: your replies and your website indicate that you're either full of crap or too lazy to actually post anything with real content and explanation.  I'll state it plainly, I'm leaning toward the former, not the later.  I am not usually this confrontational here.  I come here to have fun, talk to guys that share my interests, and to learn.  In my repeated attempts to learn during the course of this thread, I have learned nothing.  I started off very inquisitive, but I'm now quite frustrated, which is why I'm so aggressive in my attempts to get you to actually answer a question.  I ordinarily would ignore this thread, but I personally know some of the guys who might take this class, and I'm wondering what they might learn that could be detrimental.  I myself was curious about the course content when I entered the thread.

Footrat,

I try to very professional to the best of my ability but when you make comments in the way that you have as stated above, then that annoys me.

I would be happy to meet you face to face to discuss this in person and show you our take on slings but don't make comments about me being full of crap or to lazy to respond to your questions without backing yourself up.. I have tried to answer your questions every time but I stated in the very beginning to avoid all of this BS, our demonstration on slings takes about an hour just in itself.

I am the lead instructor at every one of our courses. The website states clearly:

Our lead staff instructor who has former South African Police Service experience and South African Defence Force service, has taught military, law enforcement and security personnel over the past 14 years, local and abroad. He is also a former staff instructor for the Surefire Institute LLC and Strategos International LLC in the United States teaching military and law enforcement in small arms tactics, officer survival in low light condition tactics, response to an active shooter, close quarter battle and defensive tactics. He has also had the privilege to teach at Gunsite and the Sig Arms Academy while working for his past employers.

My instructors choose not to have their bios posted as some don't like to be posted all over the web. If that's their choice, then I don't see how they can be in the wrong business.

If you have issues with me, please contact me directly and I will be more than happy to discuss them with you instead of running your mouth unprofessionally on an open forum.

Sure.  I finally got the answer I was looking for on the sling issue.  I don't agree with it, but I am satisfied that it's not for a retarded reason.  

As for instructors- If I read the Staff page, I don't even see your name on there.  Am I to infer that the only name mentioned on the site- yours- is the one to whom the only bio on the site refers?  I didn't want to assume that, and the site doesn't draw that conclusion for me.  It would be better if you could make that simple change to the site and clearly state that the Director of Training is also the Lead Instructor of every course, and that this is his bio.  Your bio on Stragego's site is much better, and easier to read.  It looks more professional, too.  I don't know crap about web design, except how the end result looks to me, but if you styled your own bio a little better, it would possibly distract from the fact that it's the ONLY bio on there.  Also stating that you're the lead instructor in all courses would go a long way toward preventing the sentiment I voiced above about being full of crap.  As it is, the Staff page looks like it's trying to be secret and cryptic.  I still assert that no major training company keeps its staff and adjunct instructors' identities a secret.

Lastly, I am an asshole.  I manage to keep that fact on the down-low, but this whole thread and all of your website are just asshole bait.  I could not resist it.  I still don't agree with the limited bits I've heard about slings, but good luck with it.

Quoted: Quoted: We believe in slings, just not being attached to you and your weapon. Having a sling on your weapon or on your body is one thing but we don't advocate being attached to both during a gunfight. So, weapon retention in a home defense encounter is a bad thing then? How do you transition to a secondary weapon without a sling attached to you AND your primary weapon?  Curious on your thoughts.

Again, it is hard to explain without showing you but we teach 5 different techniques, 2 standard methods without slings and 3 utilizing your weapon mounted light from your rifle without slings. How many people have pistol mounted lights attached to their pistols in their holsters for low light conditions and even with a sling, use just a pistol in a low light condition?

Quoted: Quoted: We believe in slings, just not being attached to you and your weapon. Having a sling on your weapon or on your body is one thing but we don't advocate being attached to both during a gunfight. So, weapon retention in a home defense encounter is a bad thing then? How do you transition to a secondary weapon without a sling attached to you AND your primary weapon?  Curious on your thoughts.

I had several questions like this at the beginning.  I would still love to hear how those problems are overcome.  I gathered that this is an answer that takes an hour to give, and you'll only get it by attending the class.

Retention would be THE primary concern to me, at contact range.  If it's on a sling, they can pull the sling around all they want, let them have the gun AND the sling.  If it's still attached to you, you now have both hands free to draw your pistol and deal with it.

Not to mention that there are plenty of other things that can be used to pull/drag someone around.  Gear would be the first, since a lot of people use chest rigs with straps or harnesses that are easily pulled.  Drag handles.  Belts.  Shirts.  Etc.  A sling greatly increases your odds of winning a tug-of-war with someone who is pulling on your rifle at close range.  Particularly when you can't shoot them with the rifle.

Quoted: Quoted: Lastly, I am an asshole.   Yes, you are.  But with reason and logic.   Me too!   Be well.  Take care.  Hope to see you at the "secret range" soon.  Get a kitchen pass already!  (You know when and where.) M

Mark, if you're talking to me, I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.  I would call you, but you never pick up your phone.  That, and it's like 0200.

I had several questions like this at the beginning.  I would still love to hear how those problems are overcome.  I gathered that this is an answer that takes an hour to give, and you'll only get it by attending the class.

Retention would be THE primary concern to me, at contact range.  If it's on a sling, they can pull the sling around all they want, let them have the gun AND the sling.  If it's still attached to you, you now have both hands free to draw your pistol and deal with it.

Not to mention that there are plenty of other things that can be used to pull/drag someone around.  Gear would be the first, since a lot of people use chest rigs with straps or harnesses that are easily pulled.  Drag handles.  Belts.  Shirts.  Etc.  A sling greatly increases your odds of winning a tug-of-war with someone who is pulling on your rifle at close range.  Particularly when you can't shoot them with the rifle.

Footrat,

That there tells me that you have never encountered this problem and nor do I wish it upon you. Easier said that done.

Even with training, it happens and has happened so fast that all you can do is fight for your life and control your rifle from being used against you and when all of this is happening on the ground with the guys intention is to kill you, then sure, I can see how you have time to use other gear / pistol to defend yourself.

It isn't Hollywood unfortunately and nothing goes according to plan. I am passionate about what I do and proud of it and I will only teach things that will hopefully help you prevail in any gunfight or scenario to let you go home to your family end of the day.

Your views are a little unreal unfortunately when it comes to just letting the bad guy have you rifle while you transition to your pistol. Been there done that, doesn't work that way.

Quoted: Quoted: Even with training, it happens and as happened so fast that all you can do it fight for your life and control your rifle from being used against you and when all of this is happening on the ground with the guys intention is to kill you, then sure, I can see how you have time to use other gear / pistol to defend yourself. It isn't Hollywood unfortunately and nothing goes according to plan. I am passionate about what I do and proud of it and I will only teach things that will hopefully help you prevail in any gunfight or scenario to let you go home to your family end of the day. Your views are a little unreal unfortunately when it comes to just letting the bad guy have you rifle while you transition to your pistol. Been there done that, doesn't work that way. If a rifle is attached to you, how can it be used against you?  If the rifle is attached to you, how does the bad guy get your rifle?

My point exactly, that is why we demonstrate it at our courses and why it takes an hour to cover.

If a person doesn't want to spend or feel that his life is worth $300 to learn new and unorthodox things, then that is up to them.

Trying to discuss every aspect about slings on a forum just doesn't do it justice. If I am vague in my reasons, it is for very good reasons.

I am all for people wanting to learn new things and find out reasons behind them but if you really want to know the answer, take the class.

Quoted: Your views are a little unreal unfortunately when it comes to just letting the bad guy have you rifle while you transition to your pistol. Been there done that, doesn't work that way.

But this is literally what you're saying is one possible solution to the problem; that you should let the bad guy have your rifle while you transition to your pistol.  Only, now he has no sling keeping him from turning the rifle around at you.  I know we're getting into "if he does this, you do this" territory, but if we can avoid that, I'd like to keep this discussion going.

Quoted: I meant I hope you can join us at the range in Toccoa.  We don't see you much now that you are married.  We still get together at the regular days/times for drills.   Would love to see you and the Mrs. soon.  I'll be around the house all day tomorrow.  Give me a call. Mark

I live a long way from there, now.  And we've been trying to get everything straight this year, with a new house, three dogs, wife's school, etc.  We're hoping to hit one of the Tactical Response Fighting pistol courses next year at South River, since I've got two classes' worth of credit with them.  I dropped the coin for their Contractor class a couple years ago, and then went off to the academy and couldn't make it.  I've been waiting to get back up there for a while.  

Quoted: Quoted: Your views are a little unreal unfortunately when it comes to just letting the bad guy have you rifle while you transition to your pistol. Been there done that, doesn't work that way. But this is literally what you're saying is one possible solution to the problem; that you should let the bad guy have your rifle while you transition to your pistol.  Only, now he has no sling keeping him from turning the rifle around at you.  I know we're getting into "if he does this, you do this" territory, but if we can avoid that, I'd like to keep this discussion going.

Footrat,

I will tell you what. I should hopefully be at Creekside next month to teach a pistol class.

I invite any member, including yourself to come out and I will give a free lesson on slings, the same one we teach in our courses.

Bring the sling you use and all of your gear and we can discuss it in person and as a group. After that, I encourage you to do an AAR about what you thought.

Let me know and we can make a time during a dinner break or after class to do this.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your views are a little unreal unfortunately when it comes to just letting the bad guy have you rifle while you transition to your pistol. Been there done that, doesn't work that way. But this is literally what you're saying is one possible solution to the problem; that you should let the bad guy have your rifle while you transition to your pistol.  Only, now he has no sling keeping him from turning the rifle around at you.  I know we're getting into "if he does this, you do this" territory, but if we can avoid that, I'd like to keep this discussion going. Footrat, I will tell you what. I should hopefully be at Creekside next month to teach a pistol class. I invite any member, including yourself to come out and I will give a free lesson on slings, the same one we teach in our courses. Bring the sling you use and all of your gear and we can discuss it in person and as a group. After that, I encourage you to do an AAR about what you thought. Let me know and we can make a time during a dinner break or after class to do this.

That's very generous.  I'm not near Creekside, but maybe one of the guys that are already going to the class could do that.  I'd really like to hear a student's perspective.  That, ultimately is the mark of the instructor- if a student can understand it well enough to explain it to someone else.  I haven't been able to find any of the AAR's with my non-paying member search abilities here.

Footrat,

Please try and make time to be there. This all stemmed from you asking the initial question so it is only fair that you be there to get it first hand and a true understanding about slings and not hear it 3rd hand from someone else.

I encourage you to be there so that we can all discuss your theories and put some of them into practice as you have stated above about giving the bad guy your rifle while you draw your pistol or use other gear to eliminate the threat.

Here is just one of the AAR.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=226028

and here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=35&t=317514

That should keep you busy reading for a while.

ETA: The pistol class is only in November, not in October so it will have to be then and this offer only stands if you are there. I would like to meet the man who thinks I am full of crap

As a person who does fight for a living, and done so the last 13 years.  Honduras, Swat here in Atlanta, Mexico, Afghanistan.  I wouldn't take one of these classes ever. I draw everything I need to know from your pictures.

Not even for free.

And both of those reviews are from people who claim NO experience fighting with  rifle or pistol.  It's easy to dazzle them.  

Quoted: Quoted: Me thinks it's maybe time we planted grass at Creekside.  Nice soft grass. It is soft...when it rains.

 True that!  Soft and red.

That free demonstration is a generous offer, Wade.  

I've never been in a gunfight, but I've trained in both the mil & civi sectors, and I've also experienced Wade's pros/cons of slings demo firsthand.   FWIW, when you're attached to your rifle via your sling, and your attacker knocks you on your ass and is all over you like frenzied chimpanzee, lavishing you with (simulated) fist and elbow strikes, and is using your rifle and sling to tie you up and/or choke you out, it's not exactly easy to go for your sidearm.  

I've tried 1, 2, and 3-point slings, and I dislike them all.  Some are better than others (I prefer 2 point), but all have their significant drawbacks, and all are simply a means of stowing the rifle within arms reach when you're not using it...same as a pistol holster, and if you go one step further, a pistol lanyard (a lanyard presents the same basic drawbacks as a rifle sling).      

There is no "perfect" solution to the sling dilemma (yet), so compromises must be made in how the sling is used.  Fighting (in the academic sense) with the sling off your body is just ONE way to do it.   I think the best approach is to try different methods, and determine what works best for you.  FWIW, sling designers, such as Vickers, must've recognized the serious risks associated with having a sling around the body, otherwise they wouldn't have incorporated QD buckles.    

How is it that local discussions always have someone from Florida pop up to promote SSA?