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Posted: 8/22/2014 12:45:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended.
Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 8:36:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended. Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 10:51:49 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended. Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? I know that it is generally not recommended, but I had also read at numerous FAL Files threads that STG-58s are OK with steel case, so I was not concerned about that. I don't believe that the use of steel case ammo is related to this problem. I'm not sure what make the fire control group parts are. I didn't build the rifle- I only bought it in the final hours in which I could. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 10:54:45 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended. Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. That's what I was hoping, that it was just a sticky firing pin or soft primer. But based on what I found after, I believe that the hammer is either following the bolt forward or is being unsettled. I did a little more testing and do believe that whatever is happening is bolt velocity related, possibly in conjunction with a warn part. Operating the action with the dust cover off, it looks very much like hammer the hammer is being dislodged when the bolt hits home. It happening know when slingshotting the bolt as well. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 11:27:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I was hoping, that it was just a sticky firing pin or soft primer. But based on what I found after, I believe that the hammer is either following the bolt forward or is being unsettled. I did a little more testing and do believe that whatever is happening is bolt velocity related, possibly in conjunction with a warn part. Operating the action with the dust cover off, it looks very much like hammer the hammer is being dislodged when the bolt hits home. It happening know when slingshotting the bolt as well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended. Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. That's what I was hoping, that it was just a sticky firing pin or soft primer. But based on what I found after, I believe that the hammer is either following the bolt forward or is being unsettled. I did a little more testing and do believe that whatever is happening is bolt velocity related, possibly in conjunction with a warn part. Operating the action with the dust cover off, it looks very much like hammer the hammer is being dislodged when the bolt hits home. It happening know when slingshotting the bolt as well. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 12:00:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a Fal expert but I do have a STG58 and the triggers of these guns do have a small spring that could not be installed correctly. If I am reading this correctly you are saying when the bolt hits home the hammer falls? Sounds like a trigger problem if this is the case. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Using steel case ammo with the FAL is generally not recommended. Don't use the bolt hold-open device to chamber a cartridge from a fresh mag. Use the cocking handle and "slingshot" it. What is the manufacturer of the hammer, trigger and sear? That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. That's what I was hoping, that it was just a sticky firing pin or soft primer. But based on what I found after, I believe that the hammer is either following the bolt forward or is being unsettled. I did a little more testing and do believe that whatever is happening is bolt velocity related, possibly in conjunction with a warn part. Operating the action with the dust cover off, it looks very much like hammer the hammer is being dislodged when the bolt hits home. It happening know when slingshotting the bolt as well. That sounds exactly like what is happening. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 12:31:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would actually increase the possibility of a slamfire, assuming it's stemming from a bolt-velocity issue. Slingshotting, just like in a pistol, will increase bolt velocity on going into battery. If there's a sticky firing pin, or the primers are a little soft, then the inertia of the FP will be that much higher in motion after slingshotting. An actual slam-fire due to a firing pin issue is a uncommon occurrence with an FAL. Typically, the only way it can happen is if there's a incorrect/modified or broken firing pin installed and it's protruding. The firing pin spring prevents forward movement of the pin until it's struck by the hammer. I'm assuming the OP already inspected the bolt for firing pin protrusion. The "slingshot" loading method is commonly used and preferable since it prevents drag on the bolt and wear to the BHO foot. The issue here sounds more like "hammer follow" which is typically caused by modified or poorly manufactured FCG parts. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 12:40:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what make the fire control group parts are. I didn't build the rifle- I only bought it in the final hours in which I could. I can't offer effective suggestions unless you're willing to provide some details about the parts in your FAL. The first thing to look at with this type of issue is the manufacture and condition of the HTS. Also check that you don't have the trigger spring and sear spring mixed up. The trigger spring should be heavier than the sear spring. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 1:05:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Yep, look at the HTS if the original german stuff it could be worn or someone messed with them trying to improve trigger pull; replace
there are also different brands of aftermarket HTS parts that are used by builders for the US parts count. Some are better than others. Also there are spring issues, wrong spring from the kit in the wrong spot and i've seen some lame aftermarket springs that seemed way light compared to OEM. I'm not a FAL expert but I've built them and mine worked. 
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Posted: 8/22/2014 1:20:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't offer effective suggestions unless you're willing to provide some details about the parts in your FAL. The first thing to look at with this type of issue is the manufacture and condition of the HTS. Also check that you don't have the trigger spring and sear spring mixed up. The trigger spring should be heavier than the sear spring. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not sure what make the fire control group parts are. I didn't build the rifle- I only bought it in the final hours in which I could. I can't offer effective suggestions unless you're willing to provide some details about the parts in your FAL. The first thing to look at with this type of issue is the manufacture and condition of the HTS. Also check that you don't have the trigger spring and sear spring mixed up. The trigger spring should be heavier than the sear spring. I'm not trying to be evasive. Because I didn't build the rifle, I'm not quite sure what was used to build it. The safety is original Austrian The hammer has an upside down U on it, like the one in this picture, which I believe is Century Arms. I don't see any markings on the trigger, which appears to have a rough cast finish. The face of my hammer has more wear than the one in the picture. 
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Posted: 8/22/2014 2:00:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not trying to be evasive. Because I didn't build the rifle, I'm not quite sure what was used to build it. The safety is original Austrian The hammer has an upside down U on it, like the one in this picture, which I believe is Century Arms. I don't see any markings on the trigger, which appears to have a rough cast finish. The face of my hammer has more wear than the one in the picture. The Century parts are junk and should be destroyed. I would not fire that rifle again until the HTS is replaced. There's a strong possibility of a double-fire if you continue to use those parts. You definitely don't want to deal with that at a public range. Original surplus parts are always better than US made parts but I would suggest trying the DSA HTS. I would not recommend the FSE HTS. Also consider buying a semi-auto only selector so you don't get hassled by FAL-ignorant people. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:09:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Century parts are junk and should be destroyed. I would not fire that rifle again until the HTS is replaced. There's a strong possibility of a double-fire if you continue to use those parts. You definitely don't want to deal with that at a public range. Original surplus parts are always better than US made parts but I would suggest trying the DSA HTS. I would not recommend the FSE HTS. Also consider buying a semi-auto only selector so you don't get hassled by FAL-ignorant people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm not trying to be evasive. Because I didn't build the rifle, I'm not quite sure what was used to build it. The safety is original Austrian The hammer has an upside down U on it, like the one in this picture, which I believe is Century Arms. I don't see any markings on the trigger, which appears to have a rough cast finish. The face of my hammer has more wear than the one in the picture. The Century parts are junk and should be destroyed. I would not fire that rifle again until the HTS is replaced. There's a strong possibility of a double-fire if you continue to use those parts. You definitely don't want to deal with that at a public range. Original surplus parts are always better than US made parts but I would suggest trying the DSA HTS. I would not recommend the FSE HTS. Also consider buying a semi-auto only selector so you don't get hassled by FAL-ignorant people. As soon as the rifle slam fired I discontinued using it- with the intention of not firing it again until corrected. I'm not worried about the selector, since the (presumably US aftermarket) grip that is installed on it prevents it from being rotated into the third position. One concern that I have with respect to buying a new set of surplus parts is that I could get something that already has a lot of wear, which is not something that I want to get involved with- though a good surplus set may be in order, though because of my finite supply of magazines I need to keep as many 922r parts on the rifle as possible. I see that DSA offers a hammer, trigger and sear kit for $65. I'm guessing that's what I want. Should I replace the related springs as well? |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:44:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah, go for the DSA HTS.
If the springs have any type of paint or other coloration on them, they're probably aftermarket in which case I would replace them with original spec. springs. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 10:15:50 PM EDT
[#14]
If you're getting a slamfire and can't induce hammer follow, it is more likely to have something to do with your firing pin or headspace. Short headspace can increase the chance of a slamfire, as can a worn firing pin spring combined with a heavy firing pin. Do you have a one-piece firing pin? If so, it might be worth replacing the spring. Can't hurt to headspace, either, to rule that out as an option.
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Posted: 8/23/2014 12:11:07 AM EDT
[#15]
I had problems with the hammer following the bolt home and not re-setting in one of my builds. Replacing my selector with a semi auto only one from DSA fixed it. I had tried a lot of other things with no luck.
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Posted: 8/23/2014 2:20:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had problems with the hammer following the bolt home and not re-setting in one of my builds. Replacing my selector with a semi auto only one from DSA fixed it. I had tried a lot of other things with no luck. Hammer follow due to holding the trigger back is often caused by the foot of the trigger being allowed to go too far back, which prevents the sear from catching the hammer as it gets reset. Sometimes this can be solved by filing in the recess on the full-auto safety with epoxy or some other substance. |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 4:12:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Steel is fine, Tula steel has had some problems.
Does the hammer drop when you let the bolt slam home on an empty chamber? If not, then it's a firing pin issue. Remove and check for a broken spring or pin. Make sure the whole firing spring comes out. Many times, the broken front half of the spring will remain in the bolt. Does the hammer drop when you let the bolt slam home on an empty chamber with the trigger pulled? If not, I wouldn't worry about the safety. You may also want to drop test the empty rifle to see if the hammer drops from impact. Just drop it on the butt from a foot or two. I used the century and FSE parts with no issues. |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 7:56:46 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't.know where you read on FALfiles that steel cased ammo is O.K. in a STG. Steel cased ammo is aceptable in a FAL...never.
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Posted: 8/24/2014 11:45:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't.know where you read on FALfiles that steel cased ammo is O.K. in a STG. Steel cased ammo is aceptable in a FAL...never. I had read it on this thread: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=292656 |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 11:49:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel is fine, Tula steel has had some problems. Does the hammer drop when you let the bolt slam home on an empty chamber? If not, then it's a firing pin issue. Remove and check for a broken spring or pin. Make sure the whole firing spring comes out. Many times, the broken front half of the spring will remain in the bolt. It does. I'll check the firing pin and spring, anyways. Does the hammer drop when you let the bolt slam home on an empty chamber with the trigger pulled? If not, I wouldn't worry about the safety. When I rack the bolt with the trigger depressed, as you would when you function test an M16, the hammer does NOT drop. You may also want to drop test the empty rifle to see if the hammer drops from impact. Just drop it on the butt from a foot or two. Will do. I used the century and FSE parts with no issues. |
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Posted: 8/24/2014 11:54:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're getting a slamfire and can't induce hammer follow, it is more likely to have something to do with your firing pin or headspace. Short headspace can increase the chance of a slamfire, as can a worn firing pin spring combined with a heavy firing pin. Do you have a one-piece firing pin? If so, it might be worth replacing the spring. Can't hurt to headspace, either, to rule that out as an option. The issue is hammer follow, as I mentioned a couple of times. I will definitely keep what you mentioned in mind. |
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Posted: 8/25/2014 11:17:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The issue is hammer follow, as I mentioned a couple of times. I will definitely keep what you mentioned in mind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you're getting a slamfire and can't induce hammer follow, it is more likely to have something to do with your firing pin or headspace. Short headspace can increase the chance of a slamfire, as can a worn firing pin spring combined with a heavy firing pin. Do you have a one-piece firing pin? If so, it might be worth replacing the spring. Can't hurt to headspace, either, to rule that out as an option. The issue is hammer follow, as I mentioned a couple of times. I will definitely keep what you mentioned in mind. Sorry for misunderstanding, I understood slamfire to mean the round was firing based on bolt motion alone, without hammer involvement. |
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Posted: 9/6/2014 9:34:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Are you sure it's hammer follow? I reread all the posts and did not see where you had actually induced it.
Have you taken the bolt apart? There are 2 kinds of firing pins I have seen used in various FALs over the years. The fact that you don't know who put yours together makes it important to verify all the components are as correct/best as they can be. The firing pin can break. I have actually experienced this. And when it breaks, the broken-off tip may protrude through the firing pin hole and cause a slam-fire. Mine did protrude and was stuck tight in the hole, but did so after the last round of a mag and I saw it before I reloaded, very fortunately. This is what made me decide to examine every component of the rifle before firing it again. I replaced my one-piece with a 2-piece pin. No problems since. As for steel case, I have had to hammer out stuck cases, and that sucks. IMO, the real problem is that steel case ammo normally has what they call-copper-washed steel projectiles, which will wear the barrel out in just over 1K rounds in an AR15. I don't want to even think about replacing my barrel. Hope this helps. |
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Posted: 9/7/2014 5:04:54 PM EDT
[#24]
JAD,
I never experienced a round going off with that rifle without me intending it to. In fact, I let new shooters shoot it from the bench, which would have been out of the question had I known of a FCG issue. It only saw South African surplus from me, but based on your description, ammo shouldn't be the culprit if the hammer is following the bolt. If the hammer is dropping when the bolt flies home, something is being jostled by the slam, and I don't know what. Looked up some other forum posts and the culprit may be a worn sear notch. |
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Posted: 9/8/2014 6:47:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMO, the real problem is that steel case ammo normally has what they call-copper-washed steel projectiles, which will wear the barrel out in just over 1K rounds in an AR15. I don't want to even think about replacing my barrel. lol. I'd like to see a source for that aside from "IMO". |
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Posted: 9/10/2014 7:25:14 PM EDT
[#26]
LOL, you're right I did drop a zero. Make that less than 10K rounds. Here's the source: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
Having said that, even documented tests are subject to challenge and speculation, as check out the conclusions of this test: www.dagammo.com/shop/Andersontech.pdf Really, in the end, you pays your money and you makes your choice. |
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Posted: 9/13/2014 9:37:11 PM EDT
[#27]
You are correct, except for the "U", those parts all bear Century "C"s. Good chance they have an issue, pretty common with their sets.
I'd pick up a cheap set of mil parts and sub one out at a time on the range to see what part is the "cheif" problem. it could stem from loose or off location pin holes, simply misground engagement surfaces, out of square surfaces. I wouldn't bother trying to dress them with a stone. That's even more of a disaster waiting to happen. |
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Posted: 9/15/2014 9:14:59 AM EDT
[#28]
Yes, first thing I would do would be check the firing pin spring. Or lack thereof. Buy a new spring and replace it.
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