UPDATE:
UPDATE

Reciever is stamped MM M14 NM

so national match receiver but the reciever is in the 173XX range which seems high for an NM, wouldnt that be a 2007 made rifle?

ARMSCORP BALTIMORE MD on the op rod rail

stock is usgi, wood.  no national match rear sight.  Barrel had P stamp marked, i was an idiot and didnt take a picture of the full barrel stamp again, may have been SAK?

The bolt was stamped HRT so Texas Machine works right?

Anyway, I tossed an offer on the table (OTD)  for the rifle and whatever extra mags he has in the shop.  The offer would be under what a brand new M1A standard wood stock would be at the store down the street, I have bought a gun from the shop in the past so we will see what he does.  I think it is a decent buy, the Polytech definitely needs some TLC cosmetically, and the bolt will need to be USGI swapped (no marks).  The shop owner said a friend asked to see the gun yesterday but never showed, he will call me by noon to gave to give his friend another chance and if not he will give me a call....

I may just have impulse bought my first battle rifle and a USGI parts M14 no less

----------------------------------------------------
Original Post.

Stopped by the pawn shop across the street from my house today on my way to work.  I was just browsing to maybe find a low priced MAK90 AK variant or perhaps another sub $700 semi auto.... instead I ran across 2 M14s
I do not know enough about the guns just yet, only handled each for a few minutes and didnt get all the info needed off of the gun (not from the gun counter guy) to make a solid decision.   reason why I am on a time crunch is simply due to the fact neither will last long even if priced improperly  in this area (down the road from the CMP), about 6 people handled the armscorp within 1 hour of it being put on the wall... hopefully it will still be there by mornign if i should make a down payment...

1st rifle:  Armscorp M14: Serial 173XX
-wood stock, 1 mag, sling
-I honestly did not know what to look for with regards to checking for USGI parts etc, however the stock and sling appeared to be USGI.  The rear sight peep is NOT hooded and appears to be the typical USGI style aperture.
-the gun was NOT priced yet, pawn shop owner bought the gun from a family who had a member pass away (this rifle along with many more were sold to the shop) the owner bought it from the shop for himself and left it in the safe. never fired it.  
-What should I look for on this rifle to ensure USGI or NM parts? What price range would an armscorp in used condition (its definitely not pristine) go for?  What would you pay? Or would you skip it all together?


2nd Rifle: Polytech M14
-stock fitment was pretty horrendous, front sight seems to have a slight cant
-rifle was very grey in finish, not like the parkerizing I have on my M1 garand or the armscorp i also noticed
-no magazine no sling, price $899 + tax.... I have a feeling I could get it out the door for $850... that being said I am not crazy about buying a polytech in kind of crummy shape for that price with the reputation some polytech's have for heat treating issues on parts like the bolts.  Seems like a rather high price for a rough gun.

I am not expecting 1 MOA out of either gun, nor do I plan on making either one tacticool, but I do want a solid shooter and something that will string groups better than my WASR AK on irons....  I would simply use it as an occasional shooter from 50-200 yards with basic ball ammo.  I have an AR10 receiver set sitting in the safe waiting to be built for precision purposes. I've just always wanted a USGI M14/M1A clone to go in the safe next to the Garand and (ar15) M16A4 clone.  It also happens to be the rifle my dad trained with while he was in the marines and NROTC in the early 1960s before he went to vietnam.

I honestly can't say that I know anything about Armscorp, though I have heard a few things that some of the early ones had some  minor issues.  But, to compare it to the Polytech, it would help to know the price.
Polytechs have their good spots and their not so good spots.  First, was the bolt the original (unmarked), or has it been replaced with a USGI bolt(letters and numbers on it)?  Polys run a little long on headspace, but that is taken care of with the installation of a USGI bolt.  The canted barrel usually means the barrel wasn't tightened correctly, to the right/not enough, to the left/over tightened.  An easy fix with the right tools. Stock is easy to fix with a USGI stock, and those are fairly cheap.  Their other issues are trigger/hammer may need to be replaced, as well as the sight knobs.  But, those are easy to do, and not that expensive.  Recoil spring should be replaced.
All that sounds like a lot, but if you can get it cheap enough, you can be money ahead.  Barrels are good, and chrome lined, receiver is usually GTG, op rod is forged.
I have 3 Polytechs, and have done all the upgrades myself.  I had one Springfield, but got rid of it, and went to the Polys.

Thank you for the help.  

The front sight was canted slightly to the left on the Poly. I did not notice any lettering on the bolt unlike the Armscorp which was lettered (cannot recall what it said on there will know in the morning).  I am only about a 5 minute drive from the cmp or can pick up USGI M14 parts at a number of small shops locally, so sourcing small part is isnt a big deal.  However, headspace issues I would feel better dropping off to a reputable smith to deal with, or a full USGI bolt swap,  (I would love to learn, but I would really like someone to show me how to properly do it first go around).  I would believe the man who built my garand could likely give me any help I need in servicing a polytech with these problems, or the CMP could turn me to who could.  I can also pick up a USGI M14 stock from there quite cheap (at least they were there the last time I stopped by).

The Polytech Flashhider was solid, it was not open open caged, were they imported this way? was it a ban era thing? I was a bit confused by that.  The polytechs seem to be all over the board price wise (LNIB is worth more than gold and beat up ones like this make solid shooters after a few tweaks here and there).  I've lusted over M1As/M14s for a number of years and never felt right buying a brand new springfield for some reason.

For the past few hours I've been researching armscorp builds,  if most of the parts check out USGI and I can get them to a number cheaper than the average SA M1A standard wood stock is new for sale right now, I think I will be doing ok.  It is nearly an apples to oranges comparison between the Armscorp builds and a newly made M1A, but something with USGI parts.  I will go into the shop when they open and try and figure out exactly what part came from where (USGI, commercial spec, or chinese parts) and hopefully throw them an offer we can both agree on.

At the risk of being accused of bashing Springfield, here are some thoughts about Springfield M1As.    They tend to suffer from Quality Contral issues from time to time.  They have MIM cast(Metal Injection Molded) hammer, trigger, and extractor.  The extractors are notorious for either breaking, or launching into space.  If they survive the first few hundred rounds, they are usually good to go.  Springfield's warranty will cover the parts, but you lose the rifle for a few weeks, and then get it back with a new MIM part.  So, the usual recommendation is to replace the extractor, trigger, and hammer with USGI parts.  If one does that, then one is doing the same thing one has to do with a Polytech, at least for the trigger and hammer,
A fairly common complaint is FTEs(Failure To Extract), cases getting stuck in the chamber, and that usually requires a trip back to Springfield.  That was the issue mine had.  In fact, I have had that issue with two SAI barrels. There have been reports of improperly machined receivers that cause bolt roller impact.  the roller hits the receiver, and over time, the roller goes bad.   As well, as out of spec machining on the left side which makes mounting a scope difficult.  Actually, mounting isn't difficult, but zeroing is.    
These reasons are why many people prefer to go with the Polytechs.  If they get the Poly cheap enough, they can do the upgrades, and have a better rifle, and save money in the process.

Sailorman2 and I have similar experiences with Springfield M1As & Poly Tech M14s.

The Poly 14 is a very good rifle out of the box, and it can easily be made into an excellent rifle with a little work.

The domestication process is not that hard, and the most costly mod is the GI bolt conversion.
Use either SEI, or Warbird for this mod.

UPDATE

Reciever is stamped MM M14 NM

so national match receiver but the reciever is in the 173XX range which seems high for an NM, wouldnt that be a 2007 made rifle?

ARMSCORP BALTIMORE MD on the op rod rail

stock is usgi, wood.  no national match rear sight.  Barrel had P stamp marked, i was an idiot and didnt take a picture of the full barrel stamp again, may have been SAK?

The bolt was stamped HRT so Texas Machine works right?

Anyway, I tossed an offer on the table (OTD)  for the rifle and whatever extra mags he has in the shop.  The offer would be under what a brand new M1A standard wood stock would be at the store down the street, I have bought a gun from the shop in the past so we will see what he does.  I think it is a decent buy, the Polytech definitely needs some TLC cosmetically, and the bolt will need to be USGI swapped (no marks).  The shop owner said a friend asked to see the gun yesterday but never showed, he will call me by noon to gave to give his friend another chance and if not he will give me a call....

I may just have impulse bought my first battle rifle and a USGI parts M14 no less

The Polytech at the shop ONLY had the solid/fake flash hider like the one see in your photo inside the box. what was the point? ban states?
I wish the polytech at the shop was in the condition like those in the box. tthis thing doesnt even have a mag lol.

The polytechs were imported post AWB but pre Norinco/Poly ban so no functional flashider. The best part of a poly is forged receiver vs Armscor cast receiver. If you buy the Armscor and its 90% USGI best thing you could do is Save up for a forged receiver. The fact the shop bought both guns from one family leads me to believe the previous owner had a parts swap in mind....USGI parts on Poly receiver. LRB has forged receivers as does SEI and Rockola.

roger. makes sense.

yeah, the poly receivers are nice, but the example in the shop is not a well kept representation.  The armscorp (in this case) would be the better buy.  I never intended on dropping this much money on a whim, i was honestly looking for a cheap thumbhole stocked mak90 in the $600-700 range when I walked in there LOL

UPDATE: I'm pissed.

This shop has snubbed my attempts at purchasing 3 times yesterday/today.  I was told this morning the moment they opened the door (shortly before my first update with details on the gun) that the "friend" who was promised first look at the rifle never showed yesterday.  I said, well may i put a down payment on it or buy it out in full today?  Owner replied, let me give him until noon today one last time since he was at work yesterday and couldnt make it in.....
-12:45 rolls around (15 minutes before shop closes) and I did not receive a phone call that the gun was sold or still available. So I stop by again,  This time thener says he forgot to call the "friend" again today.  I asked politely again if I can now purchase the rifle (this is attempt #3 at offering $1XXX cash)....  He says no, I want this "friend" to have a chance to buy it first, etc etc etc, then he simply walked away to attend to a customer eye balling some beat up taurus PT22 (beretta bobcat knock off).
-It is rather ridiculous. I'm a returning customer.  I purchased a gun from them less than a year ago, I have stopped by many times to purchase small items such as mags and ammo, even if the prices werent the lowest to help out a small business.  Now when I come to spend some real money, my money is refused 3 times.  

I worked in a quality pawnshop for quite a while, I know the business well and did my job very well. We held guns for returning customers regularly, however the guns were always properly in the firearm logbook, tagged, and left in the vault to not stir up a fuss like this by hanging on the middle of the display wall with no tag, no price, etc.

Am I over reacting? yes.  however, I was quite excited to run across this gem and now I am pretty disappointed.

/rant.

Wood can be crap on the poly's but swapping to a U.S.G.I. stock is easy enough so is changing the flashhider.  If this jack hammer gets his crap right and sells them to you I'd pick up a 7.62 Nato headspace gauge and check it with the stock bolt.  Many including myself have found their poly bolts in spec.  Once you have the gauge it's no problem checking it ever so many rounds.  I've also heard the hammer and rear sights are iffy but again I've had no problems.  Maybe you could flip the armcorp for a profit and build the poly or as said swap the U.S.G.I. stuff as desired from the other.  With that being said when buying two of the same gun in the past I've shot both then decided.

This guy doesnt know anything about the guns in his shop.  Their prices are all over the board, which means 1. they do not know the items they are purchasing 2. they are pawning items for far too much money so they cant make a decent profit margin 3. they need to learn how to use the interwebs...  The offer I made is fair for the rifle according to past gunbroker completed sales, arfcom sales, and other webpages.  It gives me a little room to profit for sure, but they only have <$400 into the rifle as it was a buy from a widow so they will turn big profit margins too... The owner/individual i dealt with does not know enough about the platform or most of the platforms he sells to price them properly for his business and his customers.  It is a pretty simple situation when a customer throws an offer at you when you run a pawn shop (Even when a price tag is missing), you throw back a higher number and you start the barter until a deal is met.... Simple, effective, and common practice at a pawn shop/used gun shop.  However, this guy would not even do that, nor does the gun even have a tag on it because he is so unsure as to how to sell it.... I have offered him a simple solution to the problem (a bunch of cash). I will likely stop in again on tuesday, give them monday to "show their friend".  my budget can go up about $100 off my original offer if i need to counter-offer, but if he does offer a sale at a higher price it will likely be a ridiculous number worth more than the polytech and armscorp combined and I will walk out.  He will struggle asking top dollar gunbroker pricing in such a poor area (lots of gun nuts, but lots of broke gun nuts), if he is a smart pawn owner he will take my reasonable offer next week.

I do not have enough money for both guns, nor do I want to buy that polytech from them if this armscorp disappears.  The way they have handled this armscorp sale (or lack there of) when cash is in hand being offered by a returning (gun buying) customer will not make me spend money on a possible project polytech with them.  I did not bother clicking the sights on either rifle,  by looking at the condition of the polytech, i'd be surprised if they did not need replacing.  The front sight is canted to the left as well.. Its more work than I want for my first m14/m1a at a price of $899 + tax.....

I will just build my AR10 sooner than expected instead if this armscorp falls through.... 1 or 2 clicks from rainier arms's website and I'll be halfway done with a quality AR10 build.

Sounds like he's waiting on his appraiser to come by (since he doesn't know firearms) and put it out anyway to gauge interest. I'd  leave it alone for a few days anyhow or he'll think he's got you on the hook.

+1 from from a 3-time gunshop employee.



You could check out this heel-stamped Norinco on GB...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464127700 (no affiliation)



It's missing the stripper clip guide, but appears to have a US stock. The handguard is USGI for sure. The vented ones can crack easily though; that's why they [America/'Merica!/we] switched to solid.





+1 to what the other guys said about Chinese M14's. I love my four. Their forged receivers are awesome and in-spec, unlike several M1A receivers I have worked on, where the scope mount area was incorrect, or they had "extra metal" on the underside of the receiver casting. SA was too lazy to redo their CNC program for a while, so they just altered the stocks with a relief cut to fit that batch, rendering them proprietary. (So yeah, I'm a SA basher sometimes lol). Their stuff's generally OK, but not for me at the prices they're asking. Why wouldn't you want forged parts for less $?



Now on to some easily-fixed negatives regarding the China...

90% of their [fake-marked WCE] rear sights are crap, and will loosen up from firing, unless you tighten them down so tightly they can't be finger-turned, so fail. Plan on having to buy a $100 sight set.



I've had pretty good luck on the bolt front. Only 1 of my 4 "needed" the bolt replaced due to headspace. (Even that one would have worked fine for years with some flattened primers. I've never heard of one failing from other than reloaded ammo that would have been dangerous in any M14). It's never a bad item to upgrade though. I'm just saying you won't necessarily have to. It can be monitored, tracked, and evaluated. It's unlikely to be required.



Obviously the neutering of the FS is lame, but easily corrected. (cool-points for GB Norinco).



Also cool for all Norinco M14S is that they are a little closer to USGI than Polytech (only in the following ways):

They have full-auto op-rod and sear (disconnector). They also ship with the correct-length connetor lock, which allows US stocks to drop-in with no risk of the lock walking out and dumping your spring guide (which is also the front magazine retention). It's simple to retrofit a Polytech though (or your stock).



The only other way to get a M14 type rifle with a forged receiver is to spend as much on a US receiver (stripped) as you would for a whole Chinese rifle.





Also, and this isn't for you, just for some folks who may read this, and who despise "the China" and their wares for political/ego reasons. Two points:

1) Import was banned in 1989, and they're already paid for, so no money is going to China.

2) How dumb would you feel to sell awesome, great value small arms to your enemies, then do something [whatever you think China would do to merit your ultimate hatred] to arrive in a position where you could be blasted (or sniped) by them? Think about it. This would be like some terrorist turning down a $200 American M4 and refusing to buy because of where it's from. Makes zero sense.

(I see both of these arguments historically brought-up in Chinese M14 discussions of the 4+ page-length variety. That generally occurs after attacks on quality are no longer an option due to technical evidence presented by Different, H2O_MAN, et al.)
Lots of choices out there!



Oh, and on the particular gun shop situation...

If you get back to the bargaining table, I'd bring this up:

"I'm a returning customer.  I purchased a gun from them less than a year
ago, I have stopped by many times to purchase small items such as mags
and ammo, even if the prices weren't the lowest to help out a small
business.  Now when I come to spend some real money, my money is refused
3 times."




But not this:

"I worked in a quality pawnshop for quite a while, I know the
business well and did my job very well. We held guns for returning
customers regularly, however the guns were always properly in the
firearm logbook, tagged, and left in the vault to not stir up a fuss
like this by hanging on the middle of the display wall with no tag, no
price, etc."



Unless of course you're not a potential buyer anymore, then flame on, but those are just my thoughts.



Good luck!



 

I agree with "Kitbuilder".  To add one thing in regards to the oft heard "made in Communist China by slave labor" litany, there is no difference between a Polytech/Norinco made in China and a K98 Mauser made in Germany in WW2 by NAZI slave labor.  Very few people complain about that.

reply, Thank you Kitbuilder,

I learned something new about norinco/poly M14s.

And as for your suggested response, I have not given him the "i know it all, worked in a pawn shop, you're doing it wrong etc" explanation.  I am not going to kill my chance at this rifle by running my mouth lol,  I would much rather play the valued, returning customer card.  I know I wouldn't sell to a smart mouthed and nasty customer either lol!


Yes, I do agree, the "friend" is going to give him a value of what he should ask.  I've assumed that from the start, he doesnt know what he has and wants to know from someone aside from the person attempting to buy it to explain the gun.

this shop really must not want my money....

2 full business days (3 total) since I last spoke with the shop and still nothing but "check back with us tomorrow on a price".

On a good note, when I went in to handle the gun again, if I'm not mistaken, the cage code on the barrel also designates a national match barrel which makes sense since it is an NM receiver..... crossing fingers.

just called the pawn shop.
They've pulled the gun from the shelf and decided not to sell... back into the owner's personal safe as it was before

Pisses me off a good bit, i would have much rather this been a "sold to the highest bidder" sort of waiting game instead of a wild goose chase.  I won't be returning to the shop, they yanked my chain around for quite a while even though I've bought rifles from them in the past.

I had the same dilemma with a Chinese NDM-86 in x54 I found at a gun shop in FL years ago; the guy refused to sell it to me because, quote "he had a deal going on Gunbroker".  

Be patient, others will come; and you will eventually find the one you want.