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Posted: 9/23/2014 4:30:37 PM EDT
I am setting up to do my first .223/ 5.56 reloads. I noticed that the book shows a case length of 1.760. I have looked at the data reference and I noticed that some people are using a case length of 1.74x or 1.75x. Is the 1.760 a maximum length? Is there a minimum length?
What are some advantages of the different case lengths? My trimmer trims the cases to 1.745 most of the time. I have only trimmed about 15 cases so far. Any wisdom is appreciated. Thanks. |
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1.760 is max case length. IIRC, 1.740 is minimum. Myself and the vast majority trim to 1.750
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I trim to 1.75 to 1.74 and set my COAL to 2.26 (mag length). I don't go shorter than 1.740.
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1.730" is the minimum but the "recommended" trim length is 1.750"
Most people stay around the recommended trim length. You are good at 1.745" At that length you will probably not have to trim before your next reloading. Maybe even 2 or 3. If you are roll crimping though you will want them all the same length. |
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I would not load a case less than 1.749 in length. I have high standards and short cases get made into 300 blk.
I trim to 1.755 (Giraud, I trim every loading). A longer neck is easier to get proper neck tension without crimping. If I had a trimmer that I couldn't adjust to the proper length, it would go into the trash. edit to replace the 7 I lost. |
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Quoted: I would not load a case less than 1.49 in length. I have high standards and short cases get made into 300 blk. View Quote I trim to 1.755 (Giraud, I trim every loading). A longer neck is easier to get proper neck tension without crimping. If I had a trimmer that I couldn't adjust to the proper length, it would go into the trash. Did you mean to post this? Is this the minimum length that could be loaded? |
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Watch "Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge" on YouTube
Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge: http://youtu.be/JKnXJxaAw2U I set my Giraud for 1.755" 1.749" wouldn't worry me but 1.745" might til I shot it with no ill effect. |
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Quoted:
I trim to 1.755 (Giraud, I trim every loading). A longer neck is easier to get proper neck tension without crimping. If I had a trimmer that I couldn't adjust to the proper length, it would go into the trash. Did you mean to post this? Is this the minimum length that could be loaded? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I would not load a case less than 1.49 in length. I have high standards and short cases get made into 300 blk. If I had a trimmer that I couldn't adjust to the proper length, it would go into the trash. Did you mean to post this? Is this the minimum length that could be loaded? It's a typo. Is that the length of a 300 Blackout case? I would not trim cases to 1.73 inches and load them. The neck is short enough at 1.76 inches. If I do trim a case less than 1.75 inches, I segregate it and shoot it as a fouler; it'll stretch. |
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Some brass (like federal .223) can consistently come out to less than 1.750 after sizing....I trim these to 1.740. Because it's common and fairly consistent, I make a load around that case and pretty much use all those fc cases for 55gr fmj blasters. Even though they're cheap and somewhat short, they shoot really well from my bcms.
Most 5.56 cases (LC, Pmc/psd, Winchester) is over 1.750 after sizing and gets trimmed to 1.750. I use those for all my other loads. |
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Quoted:
Watch "Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge" on YouTube Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge: http://youtu.be/JKnXJxaAw2U I set my Giraud for 1.755" 1.749" wouldn't worry me but 1.745" might til I shot it with no ill effect. View Quote Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. |
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Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Watch "Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge" on YouTube Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge: http://youtu.be/JKnXJxaAw2U I set my Giraud for 1.755" 1.749" wouldn't worry me but 1.745" might til I shot it with no ill effect. Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. That's the line I draw for me. It hardly ever happens. You draw yours. That's whats nice about reloading your own ammo. You can do it any way you want. |
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Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Watch "Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge" on YouTube Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge: http://youtu.be/JKnXJxaAw2U I set my Giraud for 1.755" 1.749" wouldn't worry me but 1.745" might til I shot it with no ill effect. Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. Seems like every now and then someone post asking about case length cause they have the 1.750 number stuck in thier head and they just measured some Factory once shot they had and it's around 1.740 Any other SAMMI specs folks want to call BS on ? |
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Quoted: Seems like every now and then someone post asking about case length cause they have the 1.750 number stuck in thier head and they just measured some Factory once shot they had and it's around 1.740 Any other SAMMI specs folks want to call BS on ? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Watch "Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge" on YouTube Sinclair Chamber Length Gauge: http://youtu.be/JKnXJxaAw2U I set my Giraud for 1.755" 1.749" wouldn't worry me but 1.745" might til I shot it with no ill effect. Why? What possible ill effect could there be? SAMMI says 1.730" is the minimum that means 1.745" is dead center in the tolerance or "nominal". Set your caliper to .030" and look at the cap. Do you really think a band of brass .030" wide is going to make a significant difference. And you are only talking about .010" difference. Seems like every now and then someone post asking about case length cause they have the 1.750 number stuck in thier head and they just measured some Factory once shot they had and it's around 1.740 Any other SAMMI specs folks want to call BS on ? Not tracking. In my particular case, I have never reloaded a rifle round and the process is a lot different than pistol and shotgun. When I looked at every book I have, they all have the 1.760 measurement. When I went to this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/342957_AR15_com_Reference_for__223_Remington_Load_Data.html I found several postings on shorter case lengths being used. I'm not sure what the comment about SAMMI soecs BS is about, but I would be interested in know what is the issue. Thanks |
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I would have to throw away a lot of cases if I went with 1.750 minimum. RCBS-X die recommends 1.740 trim length. I hold 1 MOA out to 300 yds with no problem. After 5 loadings cases are 1.740-1.745. I should note that I don't load to max as I shoot for accuracy.
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For those that are confused about the dimensions for .223 Rem ammunition recommended by SAMMI: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26178 Note that the minimum case length is 1.74 inches. That does not include an additional "trim to" length less 0.010 inches. 1.74 inches leaves a neck length of 0.183 inches; too short for maintaining good neck tension for my needs; the needs of most people if they would admit it. Do you continue to trim cases after sizing with the X die? RCBS claims that it's a once and done deal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
For those that are confused about the dimensions for .223 Rem ammunition recommended by SAMMI: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26178 Note that the minimum case length is 1.74 inches. That does not include an additional "trim to" length less 0.010 inches. 1.74 inches leaves a neck length of 0.183 inches; too short for maintaining good neck tension for my needs; the needs of most people if they would admit it. Quoted:
I would have to throw away a lot of cases if I went with 1.750 minimum. RCBS-X die recommends 1.740 trim length. I hold 1 MOA out to 300 yds with no problem. After 5 loadings cases are 1.740-1.745. I should note that I don't load to max as I shoot for accuracy. Do you continue to trim cases after sizing with the X die? RCBS claims that it's a once and done deal. I have had factory Federal brass that was right at 1.740" and while I try to keep mine at 1.750" if a 1.745" piece appears I still use it as .005" just isn't enough to concern me. I still trim my brass after every firing using my Giraud even when using the X-Die just because it doesn't take much effort. |
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RCBS-X die works for me. Initial trim to 1.74 (per RCBS instructions), after five reloadings and firing PMC, LC- lengths check 1.740-1.745. No split necks, etc. Note that I generally load to 2650 - 2800 fps (55 - 75 gr).
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Quoted:
I have had factory Federal brass that was right at 1.740" and while I try to keep mine at 1.750" if a 1.745" piece appears I still use it as .005" just isn't enough to concern me. I still trim my brass after every firing using my Giraud even when using the X-Die just because it doesn't take much effort. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For those that are confused about the dimensions for .223 Rem ammunition recommended by SAMMI: http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26178 Note that the minimum case length is 1.74 inches. That does not include an additional "trim to" length less 0.010 inches. 1.74 inches leaves a neck length of 0.183 inches; too short for maintaining good neck tension for my needs; the needs of most people if they would admit it. Quoted:
I would have to throw away a lot of cases if I went with 1.750 minimum. RCBS-X die recommends 1.740 trim length. I hold 1 MOA out to 300 yds with no problem. After 5 loadings cases are 1.740-1.745. I should note that I don't load to max as I shoot for accuracy. Do you continue to trim cases after sizing with the X die? RCBS claims that it's a once and done deal. I have had factory Federal brass that was right at 1.740" and while I try to keep mine at 1.750" if a 1.745" piece appears I still use it as .005" just isn't enough to concern me. I still trim my brass after every firing using my Giraud even when using the X-Die just because it doesn't take much effort. We've had folks here that crushed cases that were not trimmed to 1.74 inches for sizing in the X die. Five thousandths is a large dimension with sizing cases. |
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Something else to consider imo if you like trimming "short"......
Let's say you have a store bought round. Lets say the brass measures 1.755.....and let's assume the brass is sized to minimum headspace specs so the manufacturer is confident it will "fit in most guns". This is not a stretch to assume. Now... assume we shoot the rounds in our AR and go to resize the case. Many of us are not going to size back to minimum headspace.....we are going to bump the shoulder the way we want to (and end up with a piece of sized brass with more headspace than the store bought was more than likely. Now...let's trim one of the sized cases sized for our rifle back to 1.755. What got trimmed? I say the neck did. Now....let's trim another one of the sized cases back to 1.745. What got trimmed? I say the neck did. Now.....let's say you could stand all three cases side by side and look at them. The store bought case, the custom sized/trimmed to 1.755, and the custom sized/trimmed to 1.745. It will be very noticeable how much shorter the neck is on the sized cases.......because all of the length we added to our headspace came out of the neck in the one we sized to the same length + an additional amount in the one we shortened. I am of the camp that I don't want my necks that short......I tend to agree with dryflash that it's easier to control neck tension with a longer neck .... and I also like not reducing my necks that much, particularly if I am loading light rounds (say 50 grain Zmax) to near mag length coals.....as there's theoretically not a lot of "extra" neck to give up at that point. Why push it. Only reason for this post is to make sure people are really thinking about what part of the brass is getting reduced the most when you combine more headspace with shorter trims. Just one mans opinion. ymmv EDA --- We should call them neck trimmers....not case trimmers EDA2 --- I guess a guy could also look a the dimensions posted above and see what sammi says the neck length measurement should be too....and consider that as well |
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it's based upon SAAMI recommendations. 1.750 or 1.760 are both acceptable. measure the case length for your chamber. It will probably be 1.780 or slightly greater. You can set you case length to around the case length of your chamber in e pinch. |
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AeroE, Where did you get that drawing? I have also seen it as 1.760" -.030" I'm not nit picking in fact that was my point originally. We should not waist time nit picking over case length. For all practical purposes any case "in spec" will be fine to use. That is why they made the specifications in the first place.
There are many calibers that have much longer necks than needed. 30-30 is a prime example. Then on the other side we have the ,300 Win Mag that has a very short neck and this still works in semi auto rifles. Some case lengths were made just to be different. A .357 Mag case is 1/10" longer than a 38spl. This was done simply so it could not be loaded into a 38spl revolver. It wasn't until later when powders like H-110 came out that the extra 1/10" of case could actually be used to hold a larger powder charge. |
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That's from the SAAMI book for centerfire cartridges. A search for "SAAMI-ANSI" should turn up the documents for centerfire, rimfire, and shotgun ammunition - let's give it a try ...
http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm Th information has been added to the SAAMI web site. That'll make it easier to find in the future. |
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That's from the SAAMI book for centerfire cartridges. A search for "SAAMI-ANSI" should turn up the documents for centerfire, rimfire, and shotgun ammunition - let's give it a try ... http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm Th information has been added to the SAAMI web site. That'll make it easier to find in the future. View Quote Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. |
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Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That's from the SAAMI book for centerfire cartridges. A search for "SAAMI-ANSI" should turn up the documents for centerfire, rimfire, and shotgun ammunition - let's give it a try ... http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm Th information has been added to the SAAMI web site. That'll make it easier to find in the future. Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. Everyone should trim their brass as short as they like, that's what I always say, after all it's theirs. |
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Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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That's from the SAAMI book for centerfire cartridges. A search for "SAAMI-ANSI" should turn up the documents for centerfire, rimfire, and shotgun ammunition - let's give it a try ... http://saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm Th information has been added to the SAAMI web site. That'll make it easier to find in the future. Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. Look again. The drawings are identical. Page 41 in the manual. |
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Did you happen to look up .223 Remington? It is 1.760" -.030" not -.020" like on the drawing you posted above. View Quote I don't understand your question. The drawing shown is for 223 Remington. It shows 1.760" - 0.030". I think a better question is this - where did you get your "-.020"? What reference material can you site? I searched online for a copy of the 5.56 NATO D-drawing but could not produce one. |
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Quoted: Which SAMMI specs are correct? The .020 or .030? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes The image I linked above that says -.030" is dated on the SAAMI website as drawn in March of 2001. Unsure how old the image stating -.020" is, but it appears older based on the type of font used. I believe SAAMI changes specifications from time to time for one reason or another? So long as the brass isn't over the max length and still have enough neck to achieve enough neck tension you will be fine. Trim too much and you have less neck tension. Trim too little and you'll have to do more trimming and case prep between firings to keep it under max since the brass "grows" a bit when fired. Find some happy middle ground that works for you and stick with it to maintain consistency. As was said above: Quoted: Everyone should trim their brass as short as they like, that's what I always say, after all it's theirs. |
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The image I linked above that says -.030" is dated on the SAAMI website as drawn in March of 2001. Unsure how old the image stating -.020" is, but it appears older based on the type of font used. I believe SAAMI changes specifications from time to time for one reason or another? So long as the brass isn't over the max length and still have enough neck to achieve enough neck tension you will be fine. Trim too much and you have less neck tension. Trim too little and you'll have to do more trimming and case prep between firings to keep it under max since the brass "grows" a bit when fired. Find some happy middle ground that works for you and stick with it to maintain consistency. As was said above: View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Which SAMMI specs are correct? The .020 or .030? The image I linked above that says -.030" is dated on the SAAMI website as drawn in March of 2001. Unsure how old the image stating -.020" is, but it appears older based on the type of font used. I believe SAAMI changes specifications from time to time for one reason or another? So long as the brass isn't over the max length and still have enough neck to achieve enough neck tension you will be fine. Trim too much and you have less neck tension. Trim too little and you'll have to do more trimming and case prep between firings to keep it under max since the brass "grows" a bit when fired. Find some happy middle ground that works for you and stick with it to maintain consistency. As was said above: Quoted:
Everyone should trim their brass as short as they like, that's what I always say, after all it's theirs. How about directing us to the location on the SAAMI site where you found that drawing. |
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I would not load a case less than 1.749 in length. I have high standards and short cases get made into 300 blk. I trim to 1.755 (Giraud, I trim every loading). A longer neck is easier to get proper neck tension without crimping. If I had a trimmer that I couldn't adjust to the proper length, it would go into the trash. edit to replace the 7 I lost. View Quote +1 I use the same trimmer and same 1.755 trim length. |
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I have been trimming to 1.750 with a Giraud trimmer, should I trim a little longer to increase the bearing surface of the neck on bullet due to the chamfer?
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How about directing us to the location on the SAAMI site where you found that drawing. View Quote The link above is to the information Index. Once there, click on "Chamber and Cartridge Drawing" under the Information and Specifications heading. Here's a link to the Table of Contents of the Rifle cartridges and drawings. It will launch a download of a PDF document. Select the cartridge you are interested in and it will open up that page. Link to Drawings |
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Quoted: The link above is to the information Index. Once there, click on "Chamber and Cartridge Drawing" under the Information and Specifications heading. Here's a link to the Table of Contents of the Rifle cartridges and drawings. It will launch a download of a PDF document. Select the cartridge you are interested in and it will open up that page. Link to Drawings View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: How about directing us to the location on the SAAMI site where you found that drawing. The link above is to the information Index. Once there, click on "Chamber and Cartridge Drawing" under the Information and Specifications heading. Here's a link to the Table of Contents of the Rifle cartridges and drawings. It will launch a download of a PDF document. Select the cartridge you are interested in and it will open up that page. Link to Drawings Yep, that's where I got my image above from. You will have to use internet explorer per their homepage's instructions to open the caliber specific files. It didn't work for me at first of firefox. |
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Yep, that's where I got my image above from. You will have to use internet explorer per their homepage's instructions to open the caliber specific files. It didn't work for me at first of firefox. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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How about directing us to the location on the SAAMI site where you found that drawing. The link above is to the information Index. Once there, click on "Chamber and Cartridge Drawing" under the Information and Specifications heading. Here's a link to the Table of Contents of the Rifle cartridges and drawings. It will launch a download of a PDF document. Select the cartridge you are interested in and it will open up that page. Link to Drawings Yep, that's where I got my image above from. You will have to use internet explorer per their homepage's instructions to open the caliber specific files. It didn't work for me at first of firefox. I found the link, I've been using the SAMMI/ANSI documents in that lists farther down. |
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