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Posted: 5/24/2015 11:17:43 PM EDT
[#1]
I am betting yes.
I am also betting they would fall under dd with the stamp. However, no one is going to sell to you in your personal or your work identity, and they definitely aren't going to ship that to a residence. Many distributors don't even possess them, they drop ship to the agency. Then, as a personally owned dd, you'd probably fall under a different set of department policy, like if you wanted to rock your personally owned machine gun on duty. Lastly, if you deployed it, even following your training and department policy, and it was warranted. should there be damage or other actionable behavior, I'm not sure where they liability would fall. Or, one could just fall off a truck somewhere, and you just have it, and use it, and nothing bad happens. It really works both ways. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 12:09:38 AM EDT
[#2]
I believe they contain enough pyro to be classified as a destructive device and require the $200 tax per. Technically, even frag grenades are perfectly legal to own and posses with the right stamp, but there isn't a company around interested in selling to people without LE or .mil credentials. We can't even buy decent NEW smoke grenades anymore because the ATF is so out of control.
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Posted: 5/25/2015 3:08:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Unless you are LE i doubt you would be able to buy one directly from the manufacturer. You would have to either find one on the after market that is already registered and transfer via form 4 or make it yourself using a form 1.
Making IMO would be the most cost effective and realistic option, especially if you wanted multiple of them. But keep in mind every time you use it you likely will need to submit another $200 stamp. If youre just looking to use them for training there are practice flash bangs that use CO2 cartridges to give off a very loud bang similar the real thing. its much cheaper and safer for LE to train with than real flash bangs. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 6:18:09 PM EDT
[#4]
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did.
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Posted: 5/25/2015 6:37:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. He could just use a binary powder instead of flash powder. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 9:52:14 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He could just use a binary powder instead of flash powder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. He could just use a binary powder instead of flash powder. Binary explosives SUCK [period]. Sure you get a boom from tannerite, but, its a CRUMMY boom as far as PERFORMANCE goes. Me personally, I THINK a suitable flash bang could be home-made, BUT, it would just be a large firecracker, due to pyrotechnic weight restrictions. FLASH POWDER is terrible stuff to work with. It is very static sensitive, meaning if the ENTIRE process isn't grounded and bonded on the same electric potential, there is a very high risk of a charge developing and setting off the mixture. There is a bit more into the design of REAL flashbangs, starting from the bodies, chambers and of course the amount of pyro. Just like making 37mm chalk rounds, I think there is a good business opportunity, PROVIDED the BATFE were to be straight up about it. But the BATFE is NOT and therefore regulates the industry by ambiguity. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 10:10:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. Having made both in my lifetime, I would tend to disagree. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 10:21:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Having made both in my lifetime, I would tend to disagree. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. Having made both in my lifetime, I would tend to disagree. I would say they both tend to be dangerous. Sloppy handling is sloppy handling. Normally, there are smaller amounts of fulminates when made, but flash powder is generally made in larger batches. ALL explosives are inherently dangerous; its knowing how to handle them correctly is the hard part. I know a guy who made training flashbangs and ALL he used was an always acting impact lock-ball firing pin release and a 209 primer. That thing was pretty loud! The key was his fuze, and the SOUND CHAMBER which really amplified the primer! Worked awesome indoors, and was pretty good outside too. NOTHING like a real flashbang, but great for training. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 10:24:24 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He could just use a binary powder instead of flash powder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. He could just use a binary powder instead of flash powder. Nope. There is a science behind diversionary devices. You want a specific amount of impulse over a specific amount of time coupled with the release of a nominal amount of light. You're not going to get that combination out of any AN based binary mix. What you will end up with potentially is something I've seen referred to as an offensive grenade. You'll get a LOT of overpressure, and a longer, slower impulse pattern, but probably not the right candelas to interrupt the ooda loop. This has to do with the evolution of gas from a nitrate versus, oh, say, a perchlorate based product. There's nothing magic to flash; thousands of home hobbyists have made tons of the stuff over the years. The issue for making distraction devices is creating the right impulse profile coupled to the correct amount of light output. That, and the reputation of the company that made that device exceptionally consistent from the first one out of the cardboard tube to the last one. You'd never, ever, ever, ever want to deploy homebrew in any kind of legit .gov operation. It would be very interesting to me to see some testing done with a suitably altered binary product against the known signature of a couple manufacturers' products, however that is probably threadlockable territory, so defendant sayeth further not. Also, my initial response was crafted based on my thought OP was law enforcement based on his forum name. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 10:34:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If youre just looking to use them for training there are practice flash bangs that use CO2 cartridges to give off a very loud bang similar the real thing. its much cheaper and safer for LE to train with than real flash bangs. I have owned a few systems. Currently, I have a thunder B, and a Tornado (impact fuzing, not timer). Let me save you some money. These things are silly, overly complicated because of the absence of explosive components, and have very little training value. Part of what makes a distraction device 'work' has to do with taking advantage of a humans' startle reflex. There is a narrow window (made narrower using a few methods) that allow an assaulter to gain an advantage over a Bad Guy with a cocked weapon pointed in the only direction an assaulter can come from. These CO2 devices are exceptionally temperature sensitive, meaning you may have a 5-8 second delay on a cold indoor day, or it might go off at your fingertips if you've modified them and it is a hot ass day. So, the main thing that makes a flashbang work (timing) is out the window. The pop is audible, but that's it. So, I'm saying that had I known for certain, I'd saved my money. THERE IS NO WAY I WOULD USE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD. Now, having said that, there are allegedly some imported (UK) airsoft stuff that really IS pyrotechnic, and small children seem to be impressed with them, but obtaining them are difficult (for me, apparently) and prohibitively expensive. Maybe someone near a large population center (LA & Miami) could hit up the local paintball/airsoft scene and report back. Dunno. Sorry, I'm rambling. |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 10:37:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would say they both tend to be dangerous. Sloppy handling is sloppy handling. Normally, there are smaller amounts of fulminates when made, but flash powder is generally made in larger batches. ALL explosives are inherently dangerous; its knowing how to handle them correctly is the hard part. I know a guy who made training flashbangs and ALL he used was an always acting impact lock-ball firing pin release and a 209 primer. That thing was pretty loud! The key was his fuze, and the SOUND CHAMBER which really amplified the primer! Worked awesome indoors, and was pretty good outside too. NOTHING like a real flashbang, but great for training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't think you'd want to build a form 1 FB. Flash powder is just about the most dangerous stuff to manufacture. I have read that it is way more dangerous than making flash powder than even fulminates for blasting caps. I think it would be safer building a form 1 frag grenade. .,.. Especially if you are using a binary like Wingnut did. Having made both in my lifetime, I would tend to disagree. I would say they both tend to be dangerous. Sloppy handling is sloppy handling. Normally, there are smaller amounts of fulminates when made, but flash powder is generally made in larger batches. ALL explosives are inherently dangerous; its knowing how to handle them correctly is the hard part. I know a guy who made training flashbangs and ALL he used was an always acting impact lock-ball firing pin release and a 209 primer. That thing was pretty loud! The key was his fuze, and the SOUND CHAMBER which really amplified the primer! Worked awesome indoors, and was pretty good outside too. NOTHING like a real flashbang, but great for training. 209 primers are the basis for at least one companies training product. Maybe you are talking about them? I've seen their sales pitch video. I agree that they are pretty stout for a report. I had my bell rung one time with whatever primer goes in a .50 BMG round once. Now THAT might be a product!! |
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Posted: 5/25/2015 11:35:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Just light a SATURN MISSILE battery and throw it into the room.
Then kick back and wait for them to run out... 
Flash bangs are way over-rated. Even the latest "CRASHERS" & "NINE-BANGERS" are pretty neat, but a SATURN MISSILE BATTERY - that will make even stout 'Operators' cringe... 
MEGA-BANG 'EM |
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Posted: 5/26/2015 2:21:39 PM EDT
[#13]
LMAO!
I can just imagine that box, unsuspectingly produced from a MOLLE pouch, being held over the assaultman's head, in front of the the shield man's viewport, and then lit and chunked in there. It'd be the most WTF moment in SWAT history and certainly a surprise for all involved.  lol |
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Posted: 5/26/2015 5:38:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can just imagine that box, unsuspectingly produced from a MOLLE pouch Personally I'm partial to the 800 shot Saturn Missile that looks like an American flag, plus it'd make a nice statement when you slide it into the room:  |
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Posted: 5/26/2015 7:34:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LMAO!
I can just imagine that box, unsuspectingly produced from a MOLLE pouch, being held over the assaultman's head, in front of the the shield man's viewport, and then lit and chunked in there. It'd be the most WTF moment in SWAT history and certainly a surprise for all involved. lol Primed with M-81 igniters, and (deployed) thrown inside the building while still inside of a MESH bag, and its BEEN DONE SON!! 
No matter which way it lands, it then self rights and SPEWS HATE & ANGER!!!! RAAAAAH! On a more serious note, Royal Arms is good people to deal with and they make some HELLA nice PYRO rounds: F-Bangers The LEO rounds are CRAZY, and the trainers will knock a person loopy. About $6 a round, but UNRESTRICTED. ~Will |
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Posted: 5/26/2015 11:13:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Primed with M-81 igniters, and (deployed) thrown inside the building while still inside of a MESH bag, and its BEEN DONE SON!!
No matter which way it lands, it then self rights and SPEWS HATE & ANGER!!!! RAAAAAH! On a more serious note, Royal Arms is good people to deal with and they make some HELLA nice PYRO rounds: F-Bangers The LEO rounds are CRAZY, and the trainers will knock a person loopy. About $6 a round, but UNRESTRICTED. ~Will Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
LMAO!
I can just imagine that box, unsuspectingly produced from a MOLLE pouch, being held over the assaultman's head, in front of the the shield man's viewport, and then lit and chunked in there. It'd be the most WTF moment in SWAT history and certainly a surprise for all involved. lol Primed with M-81 igniters, and (deployed) thrown inside the building while still inside of a MESH bag, and its BEEN DONE SON!!
No matter which way it lands, it then self rights and SPEWS HATE & ANGER!!!! RAAAAAH! On a more serious note, Royal Arms is good people to deal with and they make some HELLA nice PYRO rounds: F-Bangers The LEO rounds are CRAZY, and the trainers will knock a person loopy. About $6 a round, but UNRESTRICTED. ~Will Those just look like blanks with some sort of inert filler such as salt or baking soda for the wad. I'm not seeing anything that looks like a projectile that would discharge and then burst. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:46:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless you are LE i doubt you would be able to buy one directly from the manufacturer. You would have to either find one on the after market that is already registered and transfer via form 4 or make it yourself using a form 1. Making IMO would be the most cost effective and realistic option, especially if you wanted multiple of them. But keep in mind every time you use it you likely will need to submit another $200 stamp. If youre just looking to use them for training there are practice flash bangs that use CO2 cartridges to give off a very loud bang similar the real thing. its much cheaper and safer for LE to train with than real flash bangs. Even if you ARE LE, you wont get anyone to sell them to you other than over Dept Letterhead and Chief's signoff, they're registered through your agency to BATFE, and Destruction forms have to be submitted when they're used (either in Training or for real) there is paperwork that follows every device/reload from manufacture to destruction. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 6:16:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Going to have to respectfully disagree re: flash powder being so dangerous. As already pointed out, all explosives, even low explosives used to make Class C fireworks are dangerous, most have gotten away from the potassium chlorate/powdered aluminum due to it's unstable nature & switched to a potassium perchlorate/aluminum mix. Commercial fireworks use this base mix and, while accidental ignitions do occur, it's not as bad as the older chlorate mixes.
Most flashbangs use perchlorate with aluminum & magnesium, very fine powder (like 10micron or less) for the flash. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 8:49:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Going to have to respectfully disagree re: flash powder being so dangerous. As already pointed out, all explosives, even low explosives used to make Class C fireworks are dangerous, most have gotten away from the potassium chlorate/powdered aluminum due to it's unstable nature & switched to a potassium perchlorate/aluminum mix. Commercial fireworks use this base mix and, while accidental ignitions do occur, it's not as bad as the older chlorate mixes. Most flashbangs use perchlorate with aluminum & magnesium, very fine powder (like 10micron or less) for the flash. Thats your opinion. Thats COOL. But those compounds you reference are FLASHPOWDER mixes. There is a VERY GOOD REASON why the pyrotechnics and explosives industries DON'T use Dry Chlorate mixes. Wanna know that reason? No-one in the USA will insure the mixing facility, the packaging facility, the warehouse or the carrier to transport them. Huh. Why is that? Dumb lawyers? NOPE. Because of all the EXPLOSIVE ACCIDENTS FROM MISHANDLING FLASH POWDER. REALLY? Yep. Really. Chlorate is STUPID cheap. Did pyrotechnic companies go to perchlorate just because they like to see their profit margin go down? NOPE. Because NO-ONE WOULD INSURE THEM. (See above.) The BATFE goes on alot of calls, every year - due to folks mishandling CHLORATE based Flash Powder. Usually its STATIC DISCHARGE initiation, but there are other dummies with spark producing equipment (power drills & pain mixing paddles) that are precluded from reproducing ever again! PERCHLORATE isn't MUCH better either! Especially DRY MIXES! Wet fuels are 'safer' but its still an explosive... Did you guys see the video of the guy who was making his own BIRD-BOMBS from flashpowder? 37mm shell GRENADED in his hands! AWESOME!
Good Luck, don't do your brew around innocents, AND SET-UP a remote camera! Then at least your activities can serve as a warning to others! 
~Will |
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Posted: 6/1/2015 8:44:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats your opinion. Thats COOL. But those compounds you reference are FLASHPOWDER mixes. There is a VERY GOOD REASON why the pyrotechnics and explosives industries DON'T use Dry Chlorate mixes. Wanna know that reason? No-one in the USA will insure the mixing facility, the packaging facility, the warehouse or the carrier to transport them. Huh. Why is that? Dumb lawyers? NOPE. Because of all the EXPLOSIVE ACCIDENTS FROM MISHANDLING FLASH POWDER. REALLY? Yep. Really. Chlorate is STUPID cheap. Did pyrotechnic companies go to perchlorate just because they like to see their profit margin go down? NOPE. Because NO-ONE WOULD INSURE THEM. (See above.) The BATFE goes on alot of calls, every year - due to folks mishandling CHLORATE based Flash Powder. Usually its STATIC DISCHARGE initiation, but there are other dummies with spark producing equipment (power drills & pain mixing paddles) that are precluded from reproducing ever again! PERCHLORATE isn't MUCH better either! Especially DRY MIXES! Wet fuels are 'safer' but its still an explosive... Did you guys see the video of the guy who was making his own BIRD-BOMBS from flashpowder? 37mm shell GRENADED in his hands! AWESOME!
Good Luck, don't do your brew around innocents, AND SET-UP a remote camera! Then at least your activities can serve as a warning to others!
~Will Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Going to have to respectfully disagree re: flash powder being so dangerous. As already pointed out, all explosives, even low explosives used to make Class C fireworks are dangerous, most have gotten away from the potassium chlorate/powdered aluminum due to it's unstable nature & switched to a potassium perchlorate/aluminum mix. Commercial fireworks use this base mix and, while accidental ignitions do occur, it's not as bad as the older chlorate mixes. Most flashbangs use perchlorate with aluminum & magnesium, very fine powder (like 10micron or less) for the flash. Thats your opinion. Thats COOL. But those compounds you reference are FLASHPOWDER mixes. There is a VERY GOOD REASON why the pyrotechnics and explosives industries DON'T use Dry Chlorate mixes. Wanna know that reason? No-one in the USA will insure the mixing facility, the packaging facility, the warehouse or the carrier to transport them. Huh. Why is that? Dumb lawyers? NOPE. Because of all the EXPLOSIVE ACCIDENTS FROM MISHANDLING FLASH POWDER. REALLY? Yep. Really. Chlorate is STUPID cheap. Did pyrotechnic companies go to perchlorate just because they like to see their profit margin go down? NOPE. Because NO-ONE WOULD INSURE THEM. (See above.) The BATFE goes on alot of calls, every year - due to folks mishandling CHLORATE based Flash Powder. Usually its STATIC DISCHARGE initiation, but there are other dummies with spark producing equipment (power drills & pain mixing paddles) that are precluded from reproducing ever again! PERCHLORATE isn't MUCH better either! Especially DRY MIXES! Wet fuels are 'safer' but its still an explosive... Did you guys see the video of the guy who was making his own BIRD-BOMBS from flashpowder? 37mm shell GRENADED in his hands! AWESOME!
Good Luck, don't do your brew around innocents, AND SET-UP a remote camera! Then at least your activities can serve as a warning to others!
~Will Back before Giuliani really put the hammer on the Chinese Fireworks importers we used to get Tons of that shit every summer, including an entire truckload once. NJSP Bomb squad did a demo with a Gross of IIRC "Blockbusters" (Each equivalent of 4 m-80) in the back seat of an old Caprice radio car, ignited by an electric match. NO Additional explosives. It peeled the roof, and gutted the interior. Gave me at least a VERY healthy respect towards any Flash-based Fireworks. The bomb Squad used to do the destruction for the entire county. They had a Dumpster with a PSP Lid and Vents welded on the sides for the non Explosive stuff to burn in, and the Explosive stuff was buried in a trench with a couple of rolls of det cord woven in and around the cases and set off that way. Good practice for them i guess. |
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Posted: 6/5/2015 1:55:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if you ARE LE, you wont get anyone to sell them to you other than over Dept Letterhead and Chief's signoff, they're registered through your agency to BATFE, and Destruction forms have to be submitted when they're used (either in Training or for real) there is paperwork that follows every device/reload from manufacture to destruction. What paperwork? I asked some guys in my agency, and they weren't aware of any. I know they were ordered on letterhead, but I don't believe we "registered" them on any BATFE form, unless a vendor did so on our behalf. We haven't been reporting their dispositions externally either, as best I can determine. Can you link a Destruction form? I could not locate one. I think ours are 1.4 class, based on the shipping box I saw. The mega-bangs may be higher-rated. |
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Posted: 6/5/2015 9:40:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Things used to be pretty lax back in the day, but currently, y'all really need some documentation rolling. Just because BATFE hasn't come to audit, doesn't mean they won't.
Plus, if y'all deploy one that the incident somehow goes to court, a sharp attorney's gonna ask for cradle-to-grave documentation. I don't ever remember an exact Federal form, but the bangs had a serial number engraved on the spoon, you just turned the spoons back in. |
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Posted: 6/6/2015 12:27:42 AM EDT
[#23]
Should be 1.3G, might be 1.4x with performance oriented packaging (POP), but, as soon as they are removed from that shipping container they should be 1.3G. Unless they are put into another container that is designed to lower their rating, not just any old container does that - as it still should be placarded 1.3G on container & building/structure (as per city, municipal, county & state fire codes).
Not many departments do this, and I have NEVER heard of a civilian department getting dinged for it either. As they are supposed to do the same for certain amounts of ammunition too. Depending on the fire code. Federally, different story. Army has some STRICT AA&E policies, procedures and regulations to follow, but ZERO BATFE mandate & ZERO BATFE oversight! 
Even the DDESB can only make "recommendations for change from discovered findings". ~Will |
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Posted: 6/11/2015 2:59:42 AM EDT
[#24]
I'm back with an update. I just hadn't asked the right people yet, apparently.
They were transferred on Form 5, which the manufacturer submitted. We notify BATFE via a faxed agency form when one is expended. It's just been a while since we used one. I suggested we update our placards. Thanks Will. Also, I located the relevant ATF regs on page 3 of the Explosives Industry Newsletter, "Requirements for Distraction Devices", December 2003. |
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Posted: 6/11/2015 5:23:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What paperwork? I asked some guys in my agency, and they weren't aware of any. I know they were ordered on letterhead, but I don't believe we "registered" them on any BATFE form, unless a vendor did so on our behalf. We haven't been reporting their dispositions externally either, as best I can determine. Can you link a Destruction form? I could not locate one. I think ours are 1.4 class, based on the shipping box I saw. The mega-bangs may be higher-rated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even if you ARE LE, you wont get anyone to sell them to you other than over Dept Letterhead and Chief's signoff, they're registered through your agency to BATFE, and Destruction forms have to be submitted when they're used (either in Training or for real) there is paperwork that follows every device/reload from manufacture to destruction. What paperwork? I asked some guys in my agency, and they weren't aware of any. I know they were ordered on letterhead, but I don't believe we "registered" them on any BATFE form, unless a vendor did so on our behalf. We haven't been reporting their dispositions externally either, as best I can determine. Can you link a Destruction form? I could not locate one. I think ours are 1.4 class, based on the shipping box I saw. The mega-bangs may be higher-rated. i'm retired now, no more access, but i do recall the armorer filling out a form to be sent to BATFE with serial numbers of reloads used in practice. |
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Posted: 6/13/2015 2:31:39 AM EDT
[#26]
PAGE 2: Best Flash Bang - Ever-er.
Still regulated by the BATFE though... 
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Posted: 6/14/2015 1:24:03 AM EDT
[#27]
I've got one of those!
Tequila, too! Here's the f'd up thing. I've been waiting for the appropriate moment to drink it. The fluid level is dropping in that thing, and it still has the seal on it!! Weird |
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Posted: 6/15/2015 8:03:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've got one of those! Tequila, too! Here's the f'd up thing. I've been waiting for the appropriate moment to drink it. The fluid level is dropping in that thing, and it still has the seal on it!! Weird A lot of times the bottles arent as "Sealed" as you might think, because of temperature variations with shipping and storage most times the caps arent screwed down "Tight' The company i work for lost about $80 Million on product because of Sandy when the warehouse flooded..the CEO had them destroy ANYTHING that had been submerged, because of that. If i were you, id crank the cap down on that so it doesnt evaporate anymore |
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Posted: 10/25/2015 4:44:11 AM EDT
[#29]
bumping thread to keep alive
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Posted: 11/10/2015 1:10:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD.
Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 1:52:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD. Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 12:25:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD. Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive They're still filled with 7:3 flash? 
Talk about absurd, a small spreader charge with Al 400+ mesh then an initiator would be safer than straight up flash. 
I just talked with a rep at CTS about the 7290, you're 100% correct. Although it's no longer 7:3 flash, it's pretty damn close. Regulated the same way as other pyrotechnics, which means anyone who has an FEL or user permit could register and own them as DDs as a non-agency. |
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Posted: 11/10/2015 1:10:53 PM EDT
[#33]
Hell you just about cant buy bird bangers anymore. Use to buy them at local shows now they need drivers license number ss number and hazmat fee.
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Posted: 11/11/2015 11:50:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're still filled with 7:3 flash?
Talk about absurd, a small spreader charge with Al 400+ mesh then an initiator would be safer than straight up flash.
I just talked with a rep at CTS about the 7290, you're 100% correct. Although it's no longer 7:3 flash, it's pretty damn close. Regulated the same way as other pyrotechnics, which means anyone who has an FEL or user permit could register and own them as DDs as a non-agency. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD. Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive They're still filled with 7:3 flash?
Talk about absurd, a small spreader charge with Al 400+ mesh then an initiator would be safer than straight up flash.
I just talked with a rep at CTS about the 7290, you're 100% correct. Although it's no longer 7:3 flash, it's pretty damn close. Regulated the same way as other pyrotechnics, which means anyone who has an FEL or user permit could register and own them as DDs as a non-agency. There was a company that was making command-det trainers (Essentially just a solid piece of 3" round with a 1: cavity drilled halfway down into it on a 4X4' baseplate) stick in an electric match, whatever the booster was and an Al/Ti mix on top way cheaper than using registered bangs for training although not as versatile |
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Posted: 11/23/2015 9:06:30 PM EDT
[#35]
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Hell you just about cant buy bird bangers anymore. Use to buy them at local shows now they need drivers license number ss number and hazmat fee. In the U.S., they are limited to agricultural and airport wildfire depredation use only now. |
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Posted: 11/23/2015 11:02:24 PM EDT
[#36]
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There was a company that was making command-det trainers (Essentially just a solid piece of 3" round with a 1: cavity drilled halfway down into it on a 4X4' baseplate) stick in an electric match, whatever the booster was and an Al/Ti mix on top way cheaper than using registered bangs for training although not as versatile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD. Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive They're still filled with 7:3 flash?
Talk about absurd, a small spreader charge with Al 400+ mesh then an initiator would be safer than straight up flash.
I just talked with a rep at CTS about the 7290, you're 100% correct. Although it's no longer 7:3 flash, it's pretty damn close. Regulated the same way as other pyrotechnics, which means anyone who has an FEL or user permit could register and own them as DDs as a non-agency. There was a company that was making command-det trainers (Essentially just a solid piece of 3" round with a 1: cavity drilled halfway down into it on a 4X4' baseplate) stick in an electric match, whatever the booster was and an Al/Ti mix on top way cheaper than using registered bangs for training although not as versatile VERY weather dependent though - using outdoors when its 'breezy' - NOPE! 400 mesh aluminum in of itself WOULD make a hell of a mess though!!!! Everybody becomes the TIN MAN. I will say there is a bit of science that goes into them as far a NOISE (dB) and light (lumens) are produced in the brief instant. If there was BETTER, CHEAPER and MORE RELIABLE the industry would gravitate to that. Improvised stuff, well, its amateur hour and one test of a bang-boom and suddenly its the next best thing ever-er - without regard to reproducability, producability and operator ability. There are some FANTASTIC pyro mixes out there with controlled environments that are pretty awesome - but - they are generally not very easy to tote, but, ARE RELOADABLE!! ~Will |
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Posted: 11/23/2015 11:38:37 PM EDT
[#37]
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VERY weather dependent though - using outdoors when its 'breezy' - NOPE! 400 mesh aluminum in of itself WOULD make a hell of a mess though!!!! Everybody becomes the TIN MAN. I will say there is a bit of science that goes into them as far a NOISE (dB) and light (lumens) are produced in the brief instant. If there was BETTER, CHEAPER and MORE RELIABLE the industry would gravitate to that. Improvised stuff, well, its amateur hour and one test of a bang-boom and suddenly its the next best thing ever-er - without regard to reproducability, producability and operator ability. There are some FANTASTIC pyro mixes out there with controlled environments that are pretty awesome - but - they are generally not very easy to tote, but, ARE RELOADABLE!! ~Will Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just curious to know what criteria the ATF uses to classify a flash bang as a DD. Is it strictly chemical weight? or chemical type or a combo of weight and type? The Flash Powder is classified as an Explosive They're still filled with 7:3 flash?
Talk about absurd, a small spreader charge with Al 400+ mesh then an initiator would be safer than straight up flash.
I just talked with a rep at CTS about the 7290, you're 100% correct. Although it's no longer 7:3 flash, it's pretty damn close. Regulated the same way as other pyrotechnics, which means anyone who has an FEL or user permit could register and own them as DDs as a non-agency. There was a company that was making command-det trainers (Essentially just a solid piece of 3" round with a 1: cavity drilled halfway down into it on a 4X4' baseplate) stick in an electric match, whatever the booster was and an Al/Ti mix on top way cheaper than using registered bangs for training although not as versatile VERY weather dependent though - using outdoors when its 'breezy' - NOPE! 400 mesh aluminum in of itself WOULD make a hell of a mess though!!!! Everybody becomes the TIN MAN. I will say there is a bit of science that goes into them as far a NOISE (dB) and light (lumens) are produced in the brief instant. If there was BETTER, CHEAPER and MORE RELIABLE the industry would gravitate to that. Improvised stuff, well, its amateur hour and one test of a bang-boom and suddenly its the next best thing ever-er - without regard to reproducability, producability and operator ability. There are some FANTASTIC pyro mixes out there with controlled environments that are pretty awesome - but - they are generally not very easy to tote, but, ARE RELOADABLE!! ~Will it was for use indoors, and it wasnt improvised, it was being sold at a couple of different trade shows I went to that year 2000/2001 as an alternative to using "Live" bangs I grabbed the flyers and passed them along to the ESU guys when i got back to work I havent been to one of the trade shows in a LONG time so i dont know if they folded and went away or if theyre still out there |
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Posted: 11/24/2015 12:15:01 AM EDT
[#38]
There was a company that was making command-det trainers (Essentially just a solid piece of 3" round with a 1: cavity drilled halfway down into it on a 4X4' baseplate) stick in an electric match, whatever the booster was and an Al/Ti mix on top way cheaper than using registered bangs for training although not as versatile
If a person is hand wiring in the match and hand placing or pouring the powder (even if its pre-packaged or weighed) its an 'improvised' charge. Its kinda like saying "Factory loaded ammunition - hand loaded at home" - the variables are NOT controlled and lot acceptance testing isn't conducted on each of the individual components. PYRO folks have some powder monkey training they have to go through as well as a blasters license, there are exceptions for MIL & GOV and certain folks doing certain work in specific conditions (avalanche control as an example). ~Will |
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