Converting to Blanks Only  - Looking at converting a Mosin Nagant to blanks only - step 1 - field strip and turn the barrel up side down / step 2- drill a hole in the receiver at the front where the barrel is threads to the receiver - wield the barrel permanently to the receiver / step 3 - drill a hole 3 inc from the first hole -and drill a hole 3 inc from # 2 hole /step 4- insert a full size dummy cartridge in the chamber / step 5 - know place a pice of 1/8 inc. rod stock down the barrel , till you push back your dummy catridge .5 cm / step 6 - remove the dummy cartridge and place a blank cartridge  in the chamber ( to check - that a live cartridge will not chamber but a blank cartridge will ) know if all looks good wield your rod in place ./ step 7 -stamp on the receiver "BLANKS ONLY " - Ok -if all gos well your rifle will not chamber a live cartridge or fire one -making it a " NON GUN " / all input on this project is welcome . Thank You, Jay

Sorry, the reciever is the gun (acording to Federal law and the ATF) so whatever you do to the barrel makes no difference.

For the ATF to determine it is a non-gun it has to be de-mil'd (rendered incapable of firing) or designed to be non-functional with standard ammunition from scratch.

And there has to be a release for the gases created when the blank is fired.  A plugged barrel is a good idea.

ODA_564 - I had a discussion with a Criminal Attorney about this - as long as it can chamber or fire live cartriges it is a NON GUN -  as you see in my post . it is made to fire BLANKS ONLY - it will not chamber or fire a live cartage !  Thank You Jay

Quoted: ODA_564 - I had a discussion with a Criminal Attorney about this - as long as it can chamber or fire live cartriges it is a NON GUN -  as you see in my post . it is made to fire BLANKS ONLY - it will not chamber or fire a live cartage !  Thank You Jay

"as long as it can chamber or fire live cartriges [sic] it is a NON GUN"  Wow...  I'm hoping you forgot an adverb there.

Two words of advice that your "Criminal Attorney" should have mentioned to you are "readily" and "converted."   I think you might be interested in how the BATF and Federal courts have interpreted those two words when paired together.  Otherwise have fun, its your ass on the line, not mine...

As long as it can NOT chamber or Fire a Live Cartrige aka projectile ! /Two words of advice that your "Criminal Attorney" should have mentioned to you are "readily" and "converted." I think you might be interested in how the BATF and Federal courts have interpreted those two words when paired together. Otherwise have fun, its your ass on the line, not mine.../ I think you guys have a machine  gun on your mind ? not a bolt action rifle - as - leagle in the first place - btw - the Criminal Attorney - doses Federal Court - has cases there know .

All they are saying is that the ATF (the only ones who matter, in this case) have determined the receiver to be the firearm. Therefore, if the receiver is still functional, the entire gun is still functional.

That aside, why would you want a dedicated, blank-only gun? A bolt action will cycle live rounds or blank rounds just the same.

Well Guys -sorry to say -not one of you have steeped up to say : To be Safe -Build one and send it to the ATF TECT BRANCH for there evaluation of your conversion to a Non GUN  /  the reason for a dedicated "Blanks Only "- the rifle to be used in reenactments and living history - some people cannot use real guns and have to use the air soft . check the price of the plastic guns . Thank You, Jay

Dude, you live in the USA. Using live firearms for re-enacting is okay. There is no reason that you need build a dedicated blank only bolt gun. If you wanted to get a SS Room MP-40 Blank Only Gun I'd understand. But for a Mosin Nagant? Is Ohio show anti-gun that you can't even use a regular Mosin-Nagant?

I used to do WWII Soviet.



That's me in the middle.



My friend Marisa

Miami_JBT  - No -Ohio is not so inti gun - but sorry to say - a lot of you are missing the point !  there is a good market for Blanks Only - to take the place of the air solf -a blanks only gun any one can have ! even in CAL. /btw good pic /- bottom line you take a $70 Mosin Nagant  -convert it to blanks only - know its value  $300+

LMAO at this thread.

Id be curious to know where a Mosin Nagant is illegal to own.

Talk about a waste of time and thought.

And LOL @ the $300 price.

Quoted: Sorry, the reciever is the gun (acording to Federal law and the ATF) so whatever you do to the barrel makes no difference.

+1.

Do all you want to a barrel, but if the ATF can get the barrel off the receiver you have a functioning firearm.

Blank only guns are usually certified by the ATF. Buying a gun from "Joe" that has a hole in the barrel is a bad idea.



Av.

Current reenactor and FFL.

Boy -I really fill sad for some of you, guys -that life has turned you in to a person that can only get on the computer to put some or something down - as I said sending it to ATF Tect Branch - thy have say in this any way .

Im sure they'll get a chuckle out of it.

Quoted: 4- insert a full size dummy cartridge in the chamber / step 5 - know place a pice of 1/8 inc. rod stock down the barrel , till you push back your dummy catridge .5 cm / step 6 - remove the dummy cartridge and place a blank cartridge  in the chamber ( to check - that a live cartridge will not chamber but a blank cartridge will ) know if all looks good wield your rod in place ./

1) Where are the gases going to go from the blank?
2) You will still be able to chamber & fire a round ½ cm shorter than your dummy round.  Some cartridges w/ short bullets might still chamber & fire catastrophically.

jhereg - the gas from the blanks will go out the muzzel -with the steel rod in the chamber and muzzel -a projetil can not go down the barrel - good point -the rod moved back to the point that only a blank cartridg will fit!  Thank You for your good input - btw -also looking at a shim aka feed ramp for the magazine well for blanks only -
Thank You, Jay

Quoted: Boy -I really fill sad for some of you, guys -that life has turned you in to a person that can only get on the computer to put some or something down - as I said sending it to ATF Tect Branch - thy have say in this any way .

Again, if your "Criminal Attorney" was on the ball he/she would have told you that from the beginning.

At the end of the day you will still have a firearm based on your attempts.  If you look at all of the "non-gun" or "blank only" weapons out there, the majority use a proprietary cartridge that is not based off of any real cartridge out there or they're made out of low grade metal which would rupture if you did try to modify it to fire a real cartridge.  In this line, the ones that come to mind are the 8mm replicas and the Schoessler' Supply Room replicas.  Taking a functioning Mosin Nagant receiver and just modifying the barrel will not get you to "blank only" as it will still be "readily convertible" into a real firearm.  All someone has to do is knock that rod out of the barrel, plug some holes and away they go.  Or, grind a weld and install a new barrel.  Based on what exists already in "blank only," the nature of BATF regs, statutory law along with accompanying case law I am extremely doubtful your plan is not going to pass muster.

The path to "blank only" appears to require the creation of a ground up system that utilizes a proprietary blank cartridge (not based on any existing rifle or pistol round) which feeds and vents in a way that would make it impossible to chamber any live round.  My gut feeling, based on reading your posts, is that isn't an option you are pursuing.  

If someone sauntered into my office with your proposed business plan I would be not only doubtful the BATF would approve the product, but I'd also be extremely concerned on liability issues for an individual or company creating a bubba special "blank only" weapon for marketing to individuals who could not legally own or possess a real firearm (i.e. underage individuals, those with a criminal record or where firearms are completely banned).  There is serious potential for bad news in an endeavor like that in terms of both criminal and civil liability.  

However, at the end of the day its your call as to what you do and what business endeavors you pursue.  My take is that I smell Good Idea Fairy at work here, which tends not to be the starting spot of happy endings.  

Also, my free legal advice for this post is: make sure you have someone proof read your BATF technical branch submission letter, it will help them help you.  



 

Quoted: Miami_JBT  - No -Ohio is not so inti gun - but sorry to say - a lot of you are missing the point !  there is a good market for Blanks Only - to take the place of the air solf -a blanks only gun any one can have ! even in CAL. /btw good pic /- bottom line you take a $70 Mosin Nagant  -convert it to blanks only - know its value  $300+

Actually, it's YOU who's missing the point.  Some of us have been dealing with BATF (now ATFE) for years.  We know their rules and regulations (or at least as well as they know them themselves.....with is sometimes open for debate LOL).
As was pointed out to you, the "firearm", legally speaking, is the receiver.  If that receiver has not been "demilled" to ATFE specs (typically several torch cuts thru the receiver, each cut displacing 1/8th??? inch of metal, IIRC), it's still considered a functional receiver....and therefore, a functional firearm! Plug the barrel.....cut the barrel.... drill the barrel.......hell, remove tha barrel completely!  Your receiver is still considered a "live" firearm!  Oh, and welding the "modified" barrel to the receiver is not a "permanent" fix, in ATFE's eyes........3 minutes with an angle grinder and that "welded" barrel will pop right off your receiver.
By all means, submit a shop model to ATFE's test branch.  It's just that alot of us here already know what the outcome will be.

p.s. How the SS Room "blanks only" guns got ATFE's blessing was that one, it's "receiver" was never an existing receiver for a gun. Two, the blanks it's chambered in are a "unique" caliber and three, it actually operates "backwards", with the "chamber" facing the rear!  A totally new design that doesn't function like any kind of firearm.....but looks like one.

Quoted: Boy -I really fill sad for some of you, guys -that life has turned you in to a person that can only get on the computer to put some or something down - as I said sending it to ATF Tect Branch - thy have say in this any way .

There is no reason to send it to the Firearms Tech Branch.

Under US law, the receiver is the firearm.  This is clear and unambiguous.  I'm a lawyer, but you don't need to be one to do a little research and confirm this.

By your definition, if you remove the barrel and bolt from any gun, you no longer have a gun as it cannot chamber and fire live ammunition.  We all know that is not the case.

There are tons of deactivated AKs and other military weapons in other countries that people use for wall hangers and conversation pieces.  They cannot be imported into the US, even though the demand is high.

Why?  Because even though the bolts are welded, the fire control groups are clipped, a plug is welded into the barrel, and the gas system is rendered inoperable, the receiver is intact.  It is that receiver that is a firearm under US law, and it is that receiver that prohibits importation.

height=8

Quoted: Converting to Blanks Only  - Looking at converting a Mosin Nagant to blanks only - step 1 - field strip and turn the barrel up side down / step 2- drill a hole in the receiver at the front where the barrel is threads to the receiver - wield the barrel permanently to the receiver / step 3 - drill a hole 3 inc from the first hole -and drill a hole 3 inc from # 2 hole /step 4- insert a full size dummy cartridge in the chamber / step 5 - know place a pice of 1/8 inc. rod stock down the barrel , till you push back your dummy catridge .5 cm / step 6 - remove the dummy cartridge and place a blank cartridge  in the chamber ( to check - that a live cartridge will not chamber but a blank cartridge will ) know if all looks good wield your rod in place ./ step 7 -stamp on the receiver "BLANKS ONLY " - Ok -if all gos well your rifle will not chamber a live cartridge or fire one -making it a " NON GUN " / all input on this project is welcome . Thank You, Jay

I have to agree with all of the above legal advice.  These will not be "non-guns".

Secondly, there is no need for this modification.  75% of Nagants will feed and shoot the short Czech blanks just fine.  The other 25% will need the full length round and will be useless with this modification.

What unit are you in here in Ohio?  You might try contacting John Rottatori of the 39nth Rifles or the 95th Rifles.  They are both decent Russian groups in your area that could give you more feedback on this.

I would advise against it as there is simply no need for this modification - legal issues aside.  I would think that more guys would get mad at you for destroying perfectly fine rifles than anything.  Lastly, there is only about a 2 year supply of short blanks left in the "system".  If you can't make your own from pull downs (slow and hardly cost effective anymore) The full length rounds will be the main round on the market and all of your rifles will have to be re-barreled to their original configuration.

Just some thoughts.  If you want to look into this more call my partner  (330-478-2478) Rob will take all the time you need to go over this with you.

I would ask that you not make this modification.

Daryl

As so many others have said, there is ZERO reason to do this. The only successful blank-only non-guns are those that are full-auto (or select-fire), so as to provide a theatrical piece without NFA issues.

Another interesting point to note is the extremes required to get something approved as a 'non-gun'. Take the ssroom blank-only SMGs - they not only use a proprietary blank cartridge, but also fire *backwards* so that even if you did manage to chamber a live round, you would only be shooting yourself.