Found at "The truth about guns"

Dear Sgt. Bradley:

This is in response to your communication dated January 24, 2014, to the Bureau of Alcohol, tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Your e-mail was forwarded to the ATF Firearms technology Branch (FTB), Martinsburg, West Virginia, for reply. In your note, you ask about firing an AR-15 type pistol from the shoulder; specifically, if doing so would cause the pistol to be reclassified as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR).

For the following reasons, we have determined that firing a pistol from the shoulder would not cause the pistol to be reclassified as an SBR:

FTB classifies weapons based on their physical design characteristics. While the usage/functionality of the weapon does influence the intended design, it is not the sole criteria for determining the classification of a weapon. Generally speaking, we do not classify weapons based on how an individual uses a weapon.

FTB has previously determined (see FTB #99146) that the firing of a weapon from a particular position, such as placing the receiver extention of an AR-15 type pistol on the user’s shoulder, does not change the classification of a weapon. Further, certain firearm accessories such as the SIG stability brace have not been classified by the FTB as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change. Using an accessory improperly would not change the classification of a weapon under Federal law. However, the FTB cannot recommend using a weapon (or weapon accessory) in a manner not intended by the manufacturer.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.

U do know the "actual" letter is floating around arfcom.

Not everybody follows every forum on arfcom.  Its still good information.

Still not sure why this was ever an argument... the ATF says it's an arm brace, that's what it is. How you use it has no effect on what it is. It's like saying that if you use a wrench to pound in a nail that somehow the wrench becomes a hammer when you're done. That's not how it works.

Thats a great way to put it.

Because I have seem people install a buttstock pad on the rear of the brace, resting it against the shoulder, making it impossible to insert your arm. So now that the arm can't be inserted, what good is the device? And how many times have the ATF changed their minds. While things like 922 I might ignore, I will stay away from the "brace".  GARY

The ATF once said a shoestring used a certain way would make the shoestring a machine gun.  You never know what you are going to get from them and when they are going to change their mind later on.

It is what it is.  It's an arm brace.  If you take your car and by hitting a ramp at high speed get it up on two wheels, does that make your car a motorcycle?  No, it is what it is.

In case anyone hasn't seen it yet:

Shouldering a Handgun with a Sig SB15 Brace

Asking the atf if you can shoulder the AR or AK pistol is like asking them if you can shoot it with your toes.

Do they make a folding arm brace?

Sig only makes the brace, not the buffer tube, but you can use a folding buffer tube adapter

Does that work with the AK version? It looks like it attaches without the buffer tube.

It was an argument because the ATF has used weaker logic than that.

We're not dealing with the real world here, we are dealing with the ATF's "interpretations" of the law.    And if they decide that purple is really green, then when you are dealing with them, you need to consider anything purple to actually be green.   It's stupid, but that's the way our system works.

And thankfully we now have a letter from them, to put this issue to rest, until such time as they issue a contradictory letter.

If the ATF defines a motorcycle as "any vehicle that can, or at any time has driven on two wheels", then yes, for the  ATF's purposes that is exactly what it has become.

Stupid.   But it's the way the system works, and is exactly why there was so much angst around this issue, even though it should be perfectly straightforward.

Logic has no place with the ATF. A shoestring is a shoestring right up until the ATF says the way you use it makes it a machinegun. That's why I'm shocked the took the opposite stance with the arm brace.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2010/01/25/shoestring-machine-gun/

So, 922R, which the ATF very clearly says they will send you to jail for, you'll ignore; but the pistol braces, which ATF very clearly says are ok, you'll stay away?

Very logical.

Another excellent video by Tim.  He is head and shoulders of the competition in the Youtube video thing.  I also don't think I've ever seen him express an opinon about guns that I disagreed with....

That said, I can't believe he's sporting colonel rank insignia.  LOL.

Yup. I own 3 MAK 90's which I bought 2nd hand. I didn't import them, or install the pistol grip. But they have no US parts. So I'm ignoring 922, since it doesn't apply to me in this case.  GARY

nevermind

Only reason I'd be more concerned over the SB47 over the SB15 is because it adds quite a bit of unnecessary length to the AK pistol, whereas the Sig brace on an AR is little more than a semi-rigid rubber cover than has two flanges hanging down, kept in place by the Velcro strap.(Ingenious)  I'm not a fan of the forklift-plate mounting system, either. At the very least, a piece that went across that plate and kept the brace from being slid off with the grip attached would be nice. It does the job, and probably isn't going anywhere if you torque the grip screw in tight.

Attaching a sling to this weapon after you slap the brace on it is a bit of a pain, though. Magpul MS1 with a paraclip in front, and a tightly wrapped bit around the front of the brace. Not ideal, but it works well enough, pretty close to how most folding stocks have slings attached.

But still; the ATF likes to screw with us, so I refuse to be surprised if they pull the rug out from under us. In case any of y'all have not yet heard, DO NOT buy one of these braces, SB47/15, with a credit card, and don't order it to your home address, either.

Remember, folks: A little paranoia goes a long way, and it never hurts to CYA. Especially when an overzealous, unconstitutional agency with zero oversight or accountability is in play.

Ahem. Suffice to say, this brace shoulders very nicely.  

Why?

Same reason not to buy bulk tinfoil with a card and ship it to a home address?

"Sorry Mr. confiscator.  I sold that item you are here for.  Good luck tracking down some random individual I do not know and only saw that brief moment in time."

But of course if I owned something that was later made illegal I would fully comply with the law.  And frankly, IF the "classification" of these braces are to change and they were one day considered to be a stock, all that would mean is that they wouldn't in that situation be able to be installed on a pistol without a stamp but they would continue to be just as legal as any other stock out there.  

So the idea not to order one with a cc isn't solving or preventing anything.  If someone were inclined to manufacture a illegal sbr, there would be no reason to use a "newly classified" brace over an actual stock.

Y'all are missing my point. We know the ATF likes to screw with us.

We don't know whether or not they are going to reclassify the SB47/SB15 to be "Stocks" at any given time. If that happens, there may or may not be an official announcement until after they arrest someone. And as has been stated, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

I'm a little leery of getting one of them in such a way that can be easily traced, just in case they do decide to change their minds and make an example out of some poor schmuck.(As Jrzy put it) They'd probably win the case and avoid prison, but the legal battle would likely bankrupt them.

I'm just trying to advise caution when dealing with an agency that has routinely violated our civil rights for the past thirty years. A little bit of effort to cover your ass usually pays off.

If you fear the atf then don't own any guns at any time they could change the classification of any legal weapon to ill legal or they may say oh damn he can throw his shoe it must be a full auto weapon. If you want a arm brace get an arm brace if you dont think they are worth the 120 bucks to play with till the atf changes its mind then don't.

And if they do change there mind cut the chunk of plastic in 1/2 so you have proof it was destroyed.

How sturdy is the SB-47 brace when mounted on an AK? Looking at the way it bolts on, I wonder if it is as secure as when mounted on an AR15's buffer tube.

Use some common sense when posting, this is a tech forum not the GD.

haLfLiFe

Here's a quick overview of the pros/cons of it...

Thanks for posting that video. Excellent review of the SB-47 specifically mounted to an AK!

I'm thinking about writing the ATF a letter asking them if it is legal to Install an AR pistol buffer tube on an ak pistol.

A kak tube with an sb15 is calling my name.

Well, we took our new AK to the range today with the SB47 brace installed. It was freakin' awesome!! I love it, just need a matching AR to go with it! LOL