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Page AR-15 » Troubleshooting
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 4/1/2014 8:46:32 AM EDT
Have a new Rem. R 25 308 that works great-a good bit of the time....

It's brand new and now probably has around 120 rounds through it.  It's basically stock except for a Geissele SSA-E trigger, ambi safety (lefty) and a Badger Ord. Tactical charging handle.

I'm working up some loads and after running through around 25 rounds today, I began to get failures to eject.  Here are the symptoms:

I started loading one round at a time in the mag because when it failed it would be trying to jam a round under the just fired and partially extracted round, denting the hell out of the empty case and it's Lapua-too expensive to waste!!!

When loaded one at a time, the rounds that were NOT ejected clear of the rifle ended up just laying on the magazine.  One time a case had actually done a 180 deg turn inside the action and remained laying on the magazine.

The bolt locked back EVERY time the gun was fired "single action" and every time when able to fire all the rounds in the mag without leaving an empty case inside the action.

Using a 10 round PMag.

Empties were thrown around 10-12 feet to the 4 o'clock position but near the end some landed 5 -6 feet away.

My firearms are always cleaned after a trip to the range and this one is certainly no exception.  Cleaning ALWAYS includes full break-down and cleaning of BCG of all of my AR's.

Lubed the BCG a crapload more than I do for my AR15's but hell, maybe it's not enough.  Do you have to submerge it in a bucket of lube before assembling???
Link Posted: 4/1/2014 10:08:04 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 4/1/2014 11:38:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for the reply.

I'm using 4895 (mostly) as well as 4064-my two favorite powders for my 308 loads. All the loads fired today were 4895 loads using bullets ranging from 150 to 168 grains.  I love 4895 because it also shoots great in my AR 15's.

The bolt always locked back as long as there wasn't an empty to get in the way...
Link Posted: 4/1/2014 5:35:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 5:05:40 AM EDT
[#4]
thanks for the reply.

The reloads were mostly on the low end of the load curve-I always start out at the bottom and work my way up.  Primers looked good for the most part.  Bullet seating depths are adjusted for each bullet as measured with a Hornady Lock N Load to insure I'm not jamming bullets into rifling.

I initially Flex-honed the chamber (800 grit) when I bought the rifle and use a chamber as well as a bore brush when cleaning the rifle.

the bolt face is at least 1/4 inch BEHIND the ejection port when the bolt is retracted fully. I haven't heard of this issue-what is the problem that manifests itself with this!

Pulled the extractor and it looks good and the ejector moves freely AND has a hell of a lot of pressure behind it. Extractor spring pressure is also HIGH.

The loads were pretty light-I'm wondering if this could be a lot of the problem....

Link Posted: 4/2/2014 5:17:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 9:53:18 AM EDT
[#6]
Awesome info-thanks, I hadn't thought of troubleshooting that so you got me on one!!!  

Bolt locked back every single time.......

Just did some testing using both A-Zoom and empty cases.  Both the Azoom AND the empty are ejected clear of the ejection port the INSTANT the front ends of the respective pieces are clear and because of this, the bolt head is a considerable distance from the back of the ejection port.

One thing I did notice is that if I didn't pull the charging handle with great vigor, the empty case falls out from under the extractor and remains lying on top of the magazine. If I give it a fast pull, the empty is sent flying across the living room.

Does this last clue bring anything new into focus?  I pulled the extractor off to inspect underneath it and the task of compressing the extractor far enough to get the extractor pin out is noticeably harder to do than on the .223's which seems to show it has a lot of spring force on it.

Thanks for your replies.

Edit: The extractor edge that grasps the rim of the case is pushing hard enough against the head of the bolt that I can not move it with my fingers alone-I have to push it with something metal because my wussy fingers can't do it.  When I push it with a tool it moves smoothly and freely but it's under a lot of spring pressure.

I'm really starting to wonder if it was the light loads I was shooting...
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 10:15:18 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 10:45:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Curious,
I have an R-25, why did you do that to the chamber?

Also,
Did you try anything else out with it to see if it is hand loads, or not? I load for mine
using 4064. never had a problem yet.
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 11:20:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Brilliant explanation-did not even take into account the physics that takes place during firing.  Hand cycling obviously doesn't imitate real firing.

The chamber was REALLY tight when I first went to the range.  Only fresh, factory ammo would cycle and it was alittle tight.  Pulling a chambered round out took alittle bit of effort.  Factory reloaded ammo like USAmmo, HSM, Bitterroot would require a pretty good rap on the charging handle to clear a round.

The ammo I loaded using full-length Forster dies would probably have required a hammer to clear from the chamber.  It's a DPMS made rifle and I'd read of issues with tight chambers so I figured I'd take care of it myself.  Already have a pretty good selection of Flex-Hones and it took a total of around 5 minutes of "polishing" with it chucked up in a hand drill to totally fix that issue.  Now I can easily clear a chambered round even when it's dirty so I'm happy with that.  I'd read of a few folks who had to send their R25s back to Remington because of this problem and it was fixed by the factory "polishing the chamber".  Hell, I can do that and I don't have to send my gun through the damned mail!!!

I'm going to the range tomorrow with some significantly "stouter" loads and I'll see what happens.

What is your 4064 load for your R25?

Thanks for the help!
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 5:24:49 PM EDT
[#10]
It's a semi auto. Neck sizing only isn't something you can get away with. Even then small base dies are probably needed. Of all the semi autos I've reloaded for only a few were 100% with only full length sizing. So they all get small base just so i don't have any ammo that's not 100% for all rifles.

Unless you actually polished the chamber your hone put scoring marks in the chamber it will grip the case and keep it from extracting. Honing a bolt action is fine, it's a hell no on a auto loader.

You most likely fucked your barrel.
Link Posted: 4/2/2014 5:55:00 PM EDT
[#11]
I polished my chamber with some JB bore paste and a 410 mop chucked in drill, 30 seconds max. I thought my r25 chamber was rough, that's why if did it.

My reloads with lee full resizer were tough to fit in chamber as well. I then bought a rcbs small base sizer die and a dillon case headspace gauge. No more problems.

You may find bent case rims and over pressure signs on the brass...I found I needed to back off the charge a little and that went away. U can't match bolt action velocities but u can send alot more rounds more down range.

U may have a weak extractor spring if the rounds aren't flinging out.

It took me a while to work the kinks out but now I am very pleased with my r25.
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 8:53:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It's a semi auto. Neck sizing only isn't something you can get away with.
View Quote


As I said I used FULL LENGTH Forster dies. Can't imagine ANYONE would think neck sizing would work in a semiauto.
Use the same Forster Full Length dies (not small base) to reload .223 for my three AR15 uppers and I get .7 moa with one and .4 with the other two and never had a failure or jamb of any kind.  

I'm curious-have you ever used an 800 grit Flex-Hone with Flex-Hone oil on a chamber?  I didn't go into all the details but the chamber was beautifully polished and after that I spent 5 minutes with a bore mop and Flitz finishing the chamber. The chamber is awesome.

Went to the range this morning and brought 45 reloads with 5 different bullets as well as 10 factory rounds.  I stepped up the loads a bit and  had ZERO issues.  Gun shot well using 4064 and 41 grains as my new starting point.  Will start increasing charge from here to see what it can do.  Shoots 3/4 M.O.A. with Fiocchi Exacta Match ammo which is their version of FGGM and it uses a 168 gr. Sierra HPBT match bullet as well.  My goal is to match (and possibly improve) that with my reloads.
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 9:01:31 AM EDT
[#13]
I havent needed to make any in a while since i made a lot of them , but i THINK I was 43-44 grains. cant check now, but i was loading 150's and 168's.
Been a while since i looked.




so if you are only up to 41 grains now, that may be why. I don't have my load #'s here to say for sure.
41 sounds low...
Link Posted: 4/3/2014 11:28:34 AM EDT
[#14]
Yeah, I agree with the light loads....I'm sure that was the problem..  

What made the most "difference" to me was when I fired a factory load after firing some of mine.  WAAAAY more recoil in the factory loads so I'm confident that was the issue.  I'd read that AR 308's had pressure issues (too much=very bad things) so I started out at the bottom of the powder scale to insure I wasn't overdoing things. Looks like I was being overly cautious to start with but that's OK-I know with the right load this thing will shoot sub MOA as it's done it with factory ammo and EVERY firearm I own shoots better with loads tuned to the particular weapon.
Link Posted: 4/17/2014 3:28:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Finally got back out to the range and all is well.  Started out with some loads with different bullets at 41.5 grains up to 42.5 grains of both 4895 and 4064.  

Everything cycled perfectly and left my brass in a pretty small area at around 5 o'clock and ten feet. Got acouple of MOA groups so I have a starting point now.
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