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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:23:00 AM EDT
I admit I've only paid limited attention to Magpul's new PMags because I've never had any real issues with USGI mags which I'm well stocked on. When I saw Magpul was creating the PMag I figured that they would be cool if for no other reason then Magpul doesn't know how to make anything that isn't cool but I didn't really have any need for more mags so I kind of ignored them.
Now I'm seeing some people stating that PMags are better then USGI mags? Some people claim they will never buy another USGI mag and some are going so far as to actually sell off all of their USGI mags to replace them all with PMags? It's gotten so crazy that even MarkM, who seemed to hate any aftermarket upgrade and didn't even see the reason to upgrade away from the old black followers in the USGI mags is now one of the PMag's biggest fans. What in the world is going on!!!  I get that they are new and cool and come in different colors. I get that they have optionally windows and may someday come out in clear or smoke. I know that there is a video of them getting run over by a truck without damage but so far, that has never been an issue for me.  On the downside I don't know that anybody can intelligently state what the long term reliability of these will be? If I'm not mistaken, the springs and followers are a proprietary design so if for some reason Magpul goes belly up 5 years from now, replacement parts may be hard or impossible to get?Who I really want to hear from are those of you who are replacing your USGI mags with Magpuls or at least will only buy Pmags instead of USGI mags from now on? I need someone to explain to me why they feel the PMAg is that good? Please don't reply with something like "try them for yourself" because I already plan to. I'm just waiting for the 20 round version to get released and have the bugs worked out. I'm really just wanting to read if there is something about them that I have missed (other then the Chevy truck test) to understand why some people think they are better then the USGI mags? Thanks |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:34:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Must be some type of cult with advanced brainwashing/torture techniques 
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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:47:36 AM EDT
[#2]
We will be releasing a full report on the PMags in 2008 until then we have this...  |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 8:54:30 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't have a good answer as to why I like them better but I'm one of those that switched from usgi to Pmags. Pmags just feels better in my hands, more solid feel, and fits really well im my DPMS. Also no sharp edges on Pmags, I can load them easily with my thumb without getting cut. I do use a Lula loader but I can load Pmags just as fast without it. Also when I push down on the follower the spring seem to go up and down more smoothly. Thats all I got for you.
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Posted: 12/22/2007 9:50:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Take this for what it is worth....just my opinions and observations
I don't see where the big advantage of Pmags is, but then again, I don't use Kool-aid as a major portion of my diet!  They cost nearly 30-50% more than D&H teflon coated USGI-spec mags (depending on if you upgrade to a Magpul follower for the D&H's instead of running the greens). They are thicker/bulkier/longer than D&H's. And most importantly...they shouldn't be left loaded for extended periods without the little covers that come with them because the feed lips could "creep". I couldn't really give a rat's ass about the chevy truck test....if a truck ran over one of my mags I would relegate it to a plinking mag only...if that...I wouldn't even trust it as a hunting mag when shooting coyotes! At 10-12 bucks a pop, I would not cry over a mag being damaged. I bought a Pmag in FDE to use for coyote hunting since it looks good in my tan & FDE equipped XCR or my Duracoated Dennysguns AR. I like the mag but I honestly don't think it is any better than the teflon D&H's which have proven flawless to this point for me under actual use (hunting, shooting classes and range time). Save some money and buy D&H teflons and put Magpul followers in them and you won't be disappointed ot have a bunch of feedlip covers to keep track of! 44Mag.com runs periodic sales on the teflons or will price match....watch out for those deals and get the D&H's for 10 bucks a pop shipped to your door...and get the MP followers for 2 bucks a pop in quanity and change them out just to have the "hot setup"! YMMV |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 11:41:43 AM EDT
[#5]
 B6 Suburban...   Second pass cracked the spine (crunch heard and 1 rd of Mk262 popped out)    WOW it works (shock I tell you  ) Still it works as a training mag'  Dropped repeatedly fron the roof of the villa   Second time 1 rd of Mk262 popped out  4th time - visible crak and 4 round of 262 pooped out  Mag still feeds and retains 30rds (however it was permanently retired, as even as a trg mag small bumps could let it drop a few rounds) FYI - NONE of the USGI or HK mags I did the same with functioned... I'd call they a pretty big clue |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 11:49:20 AM EDT
[#6]
As a plinker I just don't see the point of spending so much more per mag.
MAYBE if I was going to abuse the equipment all the time I would. bleh |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 12:14:04 PM EDT
[#7]
The springs are regular AR mag springs. Not sure why the follower would ever need to be replaced. The added insurance that the PMag gives over a GI mag, is worth the very minute extra cost, over a GI mag with a Magpul follower. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 1:25:13 PM EDT
[#8]
The springs are regular AR mag springs. Not sure why the follower would ever need to be replaced. The added insurance that the PMag gives over a GI mag, is worth the very minute extra cost, over a GI mag with a Magpul follower.[/quote] What insurance? Over USGI mags that always seem to work? For 2-4 dollars more per mag? If you are stockpiling 50-100 mags (or more ) that adds up quickly to NOT A MINUTE amount of money!Again, we see pictures of guys running over mags with trucks.....big deal....would you ever trust that mag again with your life???????????? Would you ever run that cracked mag in a rifle worth $1000-2000 or more? I surely wouldn't! Now that magpul has come out with the Gen 3 follower you will see all of the kool-aid drinkers spending hours replacing all their perfectly good Gen 2 followers and listing them on the EE  just wait!
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Posted: 12/22/2007 1:44:25 PM EDT
[#9]
Well I for one have had issues with USGI mags in the past - they get beat up in daily use - - the issue I am trying to demonstrate with the PMAG is daily abuse and daily ridiculous abuse - is that it still works. I'm not affiliated with Magpul and I dont make money in reflection to their sales -- my only point is the PMAG is an awesome mag - and when your life is on the line -- whats a few bucks here and there? |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 2:42:14 PM EDT
[#10]
The P mag is just a better version of a good thing. I don't have any reliability issues with my regular mags, but they never see really hard use either!
You could pay $50 for a HK mag that is supposedly more reliable than the P mag, and many folks pay for that. The P mag is probably more reliable than the HK and is very close to the price of regular mags. Whats not to like? I will definitely be buying at least 12 more, and when a regular mag goes down, its replacement will be a P mag. Its a no brainer. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 2:44:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Scuse my broad brush strokes, but *most* people are excited about the Pmag simply because it is new.
I don't need to name the obvious exceptions to the above, do I? |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 3:11:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Cute and poking fun at yourself is always worth a 
Thanks for the clue. I will say that those tests seem pretty extreme, especially to a couch potato like me  but I can respect the thoughts of a guy like you who probably uses an AR more in one month then I do in a year or two.By the way, nice 'burb! What's the package name so I know what to request at the Chevy dealership! 
Thanks for straightening me out on the spring issue. That was really more of my concern as I agree, followers aren't something that generally requires replacing very often but I still would have prefered it for the PMags to use standard followers. Cost isn't the issue here (for me anyway). Buying them through Brownells, the price isn't much more then I pay for D&H Teflon coated USGI's (my USGI mag of choice). If they are truly better then they are probably worth a premium over the standard mags. Really, all things considered, they are still pretty cheap either way. I just wanted to know why some people were now dubbing them "the best AR mag out there"? Having never tried one myself I can't say that I agree with that statement but at least I now know some of the reasons why some people feel that way. Thanks everybody |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 3:14:24 PM EDT
[#13]
they're for people who can't afford an AUG and the AUG polymer mags...
Matt |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 3:44:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Here's another PMAG test video link.
Video Info: "We accidentally shot at Magpul P-Mag in a class. We tested it and it still worked!!!" YouTube PMAG with a bullet hole test link |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#17]
right... |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:08:43 PM EDT
[#18]
The video was made impromptu to show that a plastic mag can be stronger than a metal mag contrey to popular beliefs (due to Orlite and Thermolds). Running over with a truck was a way of showing extreme conditions. Drop a Pmag from 12 feet fully loaded onto concrete and it survives. Try that with a USGI and the thing splits at the seams and spills bullets everywhere. Does it mean dropping a mag at 12 feet is a general problem? No it is not but mags get dropped all the time and damaged from just 4 feet. Bent feed lips and dented bodies etc. During MOUNT training one time we destroyed 20% of our magazines in just one day from dropping them on conctete and having people stepping on them Showing the PMag can handle extreme situations is a way of showing that everyday operations are well within in the PMags operational envelope. We said the mission of the PMag was to act as a volume suppliment to the USGI mag. After it has been out for a year we will decide if we think the PMag as a suitable replacement for the USGI mag. In short the Pmag does offer the following over the USGI. -Stronger body. -True anti tilt follower. -Constent curve inside body (USGI is straight then curved) -Stainless steel spring -Easy to disassemble. -Floorplate lock -Easy to grab floorplate. -Easier to handle during very hot and very cold temps -Snap cover keeps dirt and dust out. -Colored bodies (camo). -Dual Mag level indicator option -Bright Colored floorplates, followers and snap covers can be used to mark different types of ammunition. -PMag passed 500 hour simulated salt spray test where both the USGI and HK failed to function afterwards. -In Impact drop tests (Loaded and unloaded) the PMag outperforms USGI constantly. We do not have a max round count yet on the PMag but it is in excess of 70,000 rounds. We also had two different Army tests that showed the PMag functioned dramatically better in the M249 SAWs than stock USGI mags. The final thing we are studying is the longterm strength of the feedlips. We were expecting some feedlip creep when loaded without the snap cover but testing over six months shows that this is not the case. I hope this answers some questions here. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:09:13 PM EDT
[#19]
I just sent for 4 more Dark Earth so I think I have the answers.
1. The plastic is the same as the spaceship found crashed in Area 51, so it IS durable!!! 2. The springs cannot take a set because they are made from unobtanium. 3. They fit all semi auto army rifles including the m-1 Garand (late model) 4. You can use them as a Cod Piece. 5. They would fit perfectly in Jena Jameson's vagina. 6. Chuck Norris will specify them in his re-conquest of Bevery Hills. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:09:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Take a loaded GI mag and PMag and see which one still works after being dropped on the feed lips on concrete or rocky ground at the range during a class (or even "plinking").
A PMag runs you about $14, some dealers maybe a little less. A good quality teflon GI mag with a Magpul follower will run you about $12-13 on average. Sorry, thats just not much of a difference. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:13:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Your sig line quotes, "The most formidable weapon against errors of every kind is reason." ~ Thomas Paine Yet I suspect your actual statement is based far more on "feelings" than a reasoned outcome of a thought process. Please share with us your methods that lead you to your conclusion if you think I am wrong in my observation. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:19:44 PM EDT
[#22]
For some reason, even though we have no advertising agency, people cannot seem to understand that some people might like our stuff simply because it works. They always seem pop in with words like “Kool Aid” or “Snake Oil” so we thought it would be fun to do a spoof ad on the old Snake Oil theme. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:20:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Don't know if he still has them but the guy at sawtac.com had them on sale for 11.50 when you signed up as a subscriber. He had them in his forum as a group buy. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 5:21:27 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:10:34 PM EDT
[#25]
I just bought 10 Windowed P-mags from Brownells yesterday with my C&R license dicsount. I love the look of them. This thread makes me glad I bought them. Thanks Magpul for answering our questions.
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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:31:48 PM EDT
[#26]
I would buy more P-MAGS but my 2 Ar's are from Superior Arms and the lowers are tight and will not fit in the mag well. They do work perfect in my Colt 20".
I found out by taking a dremel to the P-mag and taking off about 1mm from each side of the mag well guide back strap they work. I do not know if it will be reliable now I need to test it. I e-mailed SA and have yet to hear back about a warranty for the lowers being out of spec. I may buy a couple more for my Colt. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 7:42:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Please don't misunderstand me. The Pmag is an impressive magazine. That it still works, even when damaged, has sold me on the Pmag as a viable product, that is to say, it is not snake oil. From the data I've seen in this thread certainly lays to rest a lot of the bad feelings about plastic mags. Of course anyone can take a look at the warsaw pact and see for themselves that plastic (bakelite?) mags work well when made properly. I only mean to point out that for the average civilian shooter the Pmag is not a necessity. Additionally, not using Pmags does not mean that professionals will be killed for want of them. Before the Pmag, USGI mags were an acceptable way to operate the AR15. After the Pmag, USGI mags are still an acceptable way to operate the AR15. The Pmag is better than the USGI mags in some ways, and it may be overall superior. But that does not mean that USGI mags are bad gear, or junk. Many people on this website are hopelessly hung up on the latest gear, and worst of all, the "upgrades." Black followers need to be upgraded to green. Green followers need to be upgraded to Mapgpul FDE. Magpul FDE followers need to be upgraded to Magpul Red. If one of those works for you, why change it? The worst part (as I see it) is the board runs in fads, and few of these guys are doing need-based "upgrades". It's all about fashion. That is the attitude I take issue with, not the Pmag or any of magpul's products. |
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Posted: 12/22/2007 9:45:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Thanks for writing back with you thoughts. I will disagree on your premise that the USGI is deemed "acceptable". This is based upon military findings that the USGI mag is the AR/M16s most glaring defect. The most recent being the dust test last month. Many military units in the combat zone purchased HK magazines at twice the price because the stock USGI mags were unacceptable. Black followers were replaced Military wide at great cost due to a particular serious failure. Added to this both Colt and the US Army have been trying to develop magazine improvements and new plastic magazines for some time now. Magpul just happened to out develop them on both counts. So I would theorize that users are interested in finding a solution to this issue through new items or upgrades as opposed to just getting excited over something new. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 4:47:31 AM EDT
[#29]
i'm definetely going to have to try out a few.
btw, i also appreciate a company with a good sense of humor, thanks for the snake oil advertisemnt guys
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Posted: 12/23/2007 5:30:08 AM EDT
[#30]
The horse and buggy were acceptable and reliable methods of transportation before the gas powered automobile.
The Model A Ford was acceptable and reliable for transportation before the 1966 Mustang. The 1968 Mustang GT was a fast and reliable sports car before the 2007 Mustang GT. ..................... |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 5:55:47 AM EDT
[#31]
Good info here. must tag.
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Posted: 12/23/2007 6:12:20 AM EDT
[#32]
A couple of months back I shot a carbine match. I left one of my gear totes inside my truck. My mom and stepdad needed to use it, and through a mistake somehow thought I said that the tote was trash.
A lidless tote was placed on the front porch with 12 PMags, 10 C products mags and about 5 USGI mags in it. It rained. A lot. I discovered this just as my birthday party was starting and had to get em clean quick. Board member Oden131 was there and helped me with the cleaning. The metal mags were all nasty, rusted out springs, some nasty white shit on some of the mag bodies, and the green followers in the usgi mags had caught rust off the springs. The grey magpuls in the CP mags did too, but not as much. Not to mention how much of a bitch it is to disassemble and reassemble metal mags. I totally wasted my time cleaning the P-Mags. The springs were still shiny, no gunk anywhere, extremely easy to disassemble and reassemble. Once they were dry, they were brand new again. One of the C Products mags still won't work, I don't know why. I can't see anything wrong with it, and the only thing before was that it wouldn't drop free from my MEGA lower. Incidentally, I know some of you have heard that they (pmags) have issues dropping free in some rifles. I have a Mega, 2 RRAs, and a DPMS lower and they drop free from all 4. Just my experience. ymmv. I also just recently sent 2 pmags to a board member in Afghanistan so I'm sure I'll be hearing his opinion about them to go along with KevinB's. For those that can't figure out what Kevin does, suffice it to say that if he likes em, it's a DAMNED good piece of gear. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 6:55:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Could you provide a link or reprint of this "dust test". I assume it was done by the military?? The military is always testing new designs and weapons (remember the SPIW and ACR?) so the fact that they are trying new magazine designs is not very remarkable. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 6:58:55 AM EDT
[#34]
link |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 7:20:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Seems more like a rifle problem than a magazine problem. If they issue a 5.56 mm weapon with a 12" barrel (like the XM8), magazine failures will be the least of their problems.
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Posted: 12/23/2007 8:46:27 AM EDT
[#36]
I can appreciate and understand the testing performed in order to discover a products' limitations.
This can be applied to any product-Magpul is simply establishing how resilient the mags are. The people who state some combination of, "..a solution to a problem that doesn't exist" have no concept of progression in any regard. I dig Pmags, I own a bunch, and I gotta hand it to these guys who did their homework when they came up with these things. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 10:17:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Anyone that has not had issues with USGI mag is either very luck or just don’t shoot much. USGI 30 round mags are a compromise design to begin with, straight then curved. USGi mags are a recognized weakness in the AR system. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#38]
The quoted failure rate is somthing like 1 every 4000 rounds for a USGI mag. You would have to do a real lot of shooting to notice that.
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Posted: 12/23/2007 1:39:04 PM EDT
[#39]
More like 1 in 300 by my math... I have had 1 stoppage/malfunction since I changed to PMAG's in April -- that was a improperly crimped AA-40 Frang round that got stuck in the bbl. |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 1:43:40 PM EDT
[#40]
KevinB that is pretty impressive.
Looks like the Pmags are better than I thought. Guess I'll have to buy some now. Any difference in reliability between the windowed/nonwindowed mags? |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 1:55:20 PM EDT
[#41]
I have not noticed any.
The windowed mags are my main mags on my carbine and in my vest -- the non windowed are in my bob, truck and villa stash |
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Posted: 12/23/2007 2:21:12 PM EDT
[#42]
I can get them at $11 a mag so that is the main reason I decided not to buy HK mags. I have over 100 USGI mags sitting around waiting for the flat magpul floorplates and anti-tilt followers, I doubt Ill ever have to buy another USGI mag in my lifetime though. All mags will be magpul from here on out, just cause I like them.
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Posted: 12/24/2007 6:33:46 AM EDT
[#43]
No math involved I'm quoting numbers provided by Magpul. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 7:00:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Damn viral marketing.
I hate you all. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 7:18:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Selective use of the numbers Kurt. The numbers we estimated on were brand new or near new issued magazines in a controlled environment. I said in a field (real world) situation like Kevin is in the number spread would increase sharply. For example -HK Mags out class most mags new but after field use they have been falling short. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 7:38:21 AM EDT
[#46]
Is Magpul still marking their mags Military/LE only, and if so, why?
I bought some of the 3/07 mags for my 458, and they are marked. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 8:04:24 AM EDT
[#47]
[
The Magpul #'s are MTBF of a USGI mag in general use KevinB's numbers are for malfunctions in the dust test that was just concluded. I have stuffed a PMAG into a customer's order here and there, generally when they are among the "Why a PMAG" crowd. I have yet to have a complaint about the mags. In fact I have sold 50-some PMAGs to 3 guys that I did that to. Buy one, buy two, and then run them hard. I have done reloads on a concrete surface and do not even worry about what will happen to the mag when it hits the ground. I have spiked a fully loaded one into a concrete floor, that broke the little protective cover and allowed two rounds to spit out, but that was it mag still runs great. I have thrown them into range bags and let the bag ride around in the bed of the truck for a weekend, that killed two USGI mags and a WC 1911 mag ( I had forgotten it was in there  ) but the sliding and smashing into the front and the back of the truck bed did no damage to the PMAGs, my LULA, or my lights.Is this scientific? Nope, but it does illuminate the durability of the PMAGs. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 9:44:58 AM EDT
[#48]
No, they arent. The 03/07 mags were pre-production mags. Why would it matter if they were?? |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 1:27:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Was the "dust test" a test of weapons, magazines, or both?? I read through the post quickly and didn't see any mention of magazines. |
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Posted: 12/24/2007 4:05:10 PM EDT
[#50]
SO MUCH MORE??? I GOT MINE FOR 10.00 A POP |
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