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Posted: 8/1/2017 12:30:30 PM EDT
[#1]
IMI Surplus 55 gr 5.56, simply because it shoots well in my guns, and I have been stockpiling it.
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:42:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
855. If I am going to be using my AR for anything resembling protecting myself it will be at close range most likely which means a lot to the everywhere or it will be against vehicles and I want penetration uber alles. I used it in combat. I am comfortable with it. It did everything I needed it to do. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 1:55:00 PM EDT
[#3]
M193 for STF maybe. Has no one read the studies? There is a reason that M193 is not used by the military. It pokes holes and the bad guy will bleed out, but he can live a long time. M193 for long term storage, shtf, but not for home invasion or need bad guy dead now.
MK262 or the clones is loaded in all my go to mags. Currently IMI 77. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 2:34:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193 for STF maybe. Has no one read the studies? There is a reason that M193 is not used by the military. It pokes holes and the bad guy will bleed out, but he can live a long time. M193 for long term storage, shtf, but not for home invasion or need bad guy dead now. At any distance I'd take a shot in my area of North Central Texas be it deer or bad guy I'm going to be well within the velocity range for M193 to frag. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 3:19:59 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193 for STF maybe. Has no one read the studies? There is a reason that M193 is not used by the military. It pokes holes and the bad guy will bleed out, but he can live a long time. M193 for long term storage, shtf, but not for home invasion or need bad guy dead now. MK262 or the clones is loaded in all my go to mags. Currently IMI 77. 
And M855 too 
goodthingtoread Actually, since we're on this topic, any of you clock your M193 or M855 out of a 14.5" 14.7" barrel? I forget what they're supposed to be doing..... My memory is that out of a 14.5 barrel M193 is still going to be fragmenting well out to 100. But I don't have a chrono and don't remember if there is a chart. Probably Molon did a thing. I'll have to go back through all of his links. And FWIW, I've read a few BTDT people on here say M855 was used up to much further than what the studies show is the threshold for fragmentation and they still did their job. Nothing scientific but anecdotal. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 5:21:07 PM EDT
[#6]
If I can use whatever I damn well please I'd like some M995!
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Posted: 8/1/2017 6:37:22 PM EDT
[#7]
When it comes down to it i'll use anything but what i have on hand it would be the 55 grain gold dot stuff psa was blowing out back in december
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Posted: 8/1/2017 7:37:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
snip. Read Dr. Roberts, DocGKR at pistol-forums.com. Start with this. edit: Does the US military use m193 for anything other than training? edit: cleaned up my childish BS because this is not GD. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:16:23 PM EDT
[#9]
The military uses M855, and now M855A1. With some MK262. Obviously some do a better job than others. You claimed M193 has in ice pick hole wound. That is clearly not the case. I believe Fackler worked on some of the stuff I referenced. And is referenced in the ammo-oracle.
There is no doubt there are better choices for self defense than M193. There are a lot of people that have put a lot of work into that and can be seen here: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#mozTocId803443 But I believe you exaggerated your position and wasn't really factual. So for the benefit of others, I'm disagreeing with this statement particularly: It pokes holes and the bad guy will bleed out, but he can live a long time. 10 cm is less than 4". Yes, it's not ideal, but most torsos will have more than 4" depth. Plus that's if it doesn't hit bone. And that's in gel. I personally have no problems with M193. I would even personally use it for home defense. But I do usually have some heavier match bullet ammo on hand for that. Plus the reason the military stopped using M193 and went to M855 wasn't due to it being a lousy stopper. Which is why I referenced the little tidbit of text about it's wounding characteristics. |
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Posted: 8/1/2017 10:24:08 PM EDT
[#10]
for yaw dependent rounds like M193 and M855, the angle of attack when the bullet hits makes all the difference in neck length
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Posted: 8/2/2017 12:13:48 AM EDT
[#11]
LOL. how is this not moved to GD? what a dick swinging topic. 193 and 855 are the worst rounds. didnt we all ready know this?
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Posted: 8/2/2017 12:35:18 AM EDT
[#12]
62g Fusion MSR
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Posted: 8/2/2017 2:05:25 AM EDT
[#13]
I have 64gr Gold Dot, 62gr Fusion, 64gr Power Point, 75gr BTHP, 68gr BTHP, 62gr BTHP, 55gr SP, M855, and M193 all laid back in sufficient quantities to see me through just about anything.
My Oh Lawd stuff is the 64 GD though. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 2:10:01 AM EDT
[#14]
64gr Gold Dots
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Posted: 8/2/2017 3:08:03 AM EDT
[#15]
The yaw dependent neck length is precisely why I like the TMKs for soft targets.
The gel tests show that the poly tip aids in initiating fragmentation with very consistently short neck lengths (~1"), even better than Hornady TAP. DocGKR's testing shows that even though standard SMK (eg. Mk262 and clones) produce somewhat better results than M193 or M855, it still suffers from variability due to yaw dependent neck length. M193 and M855 are much cheaper to stockpile, and even Mk262 is cheaper than options like TMK or TAP, but if money was no object, I'd stockpile TMK and RA556B. RA556B in my own testing chrono'ed higher than LE223T3, and is one of the top recommended barrier blind rounds, but like TMK, isn't cheap, or commonly available. As for the contentious M193 and "live a long time" comment: when it comes down to it, someone armed with a firearm remaining physically capable of still shooting at me and mine is an extremely undesirable condition. I prefer that whatever I use be consistently effective in incapacitating them as rapidly as possible. Therein lies the issue with M193 and M855 (and even Mk262). Yes, there's anecdotal evidence of, "it does the job", but there's also plenty of anecdotal evidence of, "multiple holes found in corpse. Guy continued firing back for way too long despite being hit several times". The inconsistent neck length means either/or can occur: with short neck length, hits put the target down rapidly/immediately, but with long neck length, the target may be able to continue being a threat, which is PRECISELY why DocGKR's data does NOT recommend relying on M193, M855 or even Mk262 for ideal SD ammo. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 8:08:07 AM EDT
[#16]
I apologize for being childish in my prior post. This is not GD.
Let me be clear. I don't dislike M193. I have several cases and several mags loaded with it if I ever run out of the MK262 clones ammo. I just think there is better ammo for acute situations. CBC or IMI MK262 clones are affordable, not as affordable as m193. I keep a 2:1 ration of M193 to MK262. Mk262 clone mags on top. Back on topic: CBC and IMI are very affordable SD loads when bought in bulk. I saw on the ammo sale thread that someone has CBC 77gr OTM for $700 a case. Not the $300 a case for M193, but 77gr isn't for plinking. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 8:56:53 AM EDT
[#17]
Another. 223 64gr Gold Dot user here.
But I would do my level best to avoid confrontation. Getting shot in a SHTF scenario ,even slightly wounded without medical care, would be a death sentence. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 3:04:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Like I said in my prior post. I really think we over think this. Look at it this way. Let's say you engage a human size target at 75 yards (FBI statistics say the average distance for a gun battle in the US is 10-20ft), yeah that close. You hit the target center chest, which bullet it going to kill him more dead?
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Posted: 8/2/2017 3:18:31 PM EDT
[#19]
For SPR and 16" carbines, IMI 77 grain OTM.
For SBR, 64 grain GD. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 3:20:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193 for STF maybe. Has no one read the studies? There is a reason that M193 is not used by the military. It pokes holes and the bad guy will bleed out, but he can live a long time. M193 for long term storage, shtf, but not for home invasion or need bad guy dead now. MK262 or the clones is loaded in all my go to mags. Currently IMI 77. Depends on barrel length, have you not read the studies? https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId803443 
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Posted: 8/2/2017 4:10:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MK262/BH 77 OTM 5.56mm |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 5:16:13 PM EDT
[#22]
For HD and very special occasions I have RXM556T3, 62gr bonded SP.
Chrono'd it at over 2700 FPS out of my 10 1/2 " bbl. Otherwise, lots and lots of M193. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 6:02:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Speer Gold Dot. When that runs out we will start working on the stash of M193.
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Posted: 8/2/2017 8:16:22 PM EDT
[#24]
I'd be "OK" with M193. But since much, much better options are available. I go with something else. I don't keep a huge stock of defensive minded 5.56/.223. But I do have a decent amount. I used MK262 for a while. But I switched to mk318 last year. Not worried about any type of overpenetration here. So having a barrier blind load in the house is a plus.
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Posted: 8/2/2017 9:18:48 PM EDT
[#25]
So much stupidity in this thread.
M855A1+77gr TMK loads from Stillwood. |
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Posted: 8/2/2017 9:37:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So much stupidity in this thread. M855A1+77gr TMK loads from Stillwood. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 9:27:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Trophy bonded 223
M855 and m855A1 I'll be Punching holes. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 9:30:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Trophy bonded 223
M855 and m855A1 I'll be Punching holes. Or .30 API from a sniper or BAR We are well armed here We are expecting armored things as robotic drones here in Mississippi. M193 from a m16 for t shirt wearing savages, tumble and roll |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 1:07:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what stupidity? people posting what they like to use as ammo? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So much stupidity in this thread. M855A1+77gr TMK loads from Stillwood. so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 2:10:04 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. You shot a lot of folks with FMJ who didn't die? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 2:46:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 2:57:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IMI 77s |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:00:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:24:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You shot a lot of folks with FMJ who didn't die? and isnt that why LE moved to soft point? and the military moved to 855A1? what's the deal with you fmj guys? are you just to poor or uninformed to afford decent SD ammo and have to belittle anyone that doesnt share your justification? isnt the point of stopping a thread, to stop it as fast as possible? sure any bullet will kill you, given time without medical but why screw around when they could take a hit and return fire and hit you, then you are fucked. get a bullet that works BETTER. concept. i guess ignorance is bliss. my job is done here. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:25:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An FMJ moving at 1000fps and one moving at 3250 is a totally different animal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. and by looking at your pic, you're sure not getting 3250. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:52:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that would be assuming you are shooting a 20" barreled rifle, which 99% of arfcomer's DO NOT. and by looking at your pic, you're sure not getting 3250. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. and by looking at your pic, you're sure not getting 3250. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 4:33:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nope but read enough from people that have. and isnt that why LE moved to soft point? and the military moved to 855A1? what's the deal with you fmj guys? are you just to poor or uninformed to afford decent SD ammo and have to belittle anyone that doesnt share your justification? isnt the point of stopping a thread, to stop it as fast as possible? sure any bullet will kill you, given time without medical but why screw around when they could take a hit and return fire and hit you, then you are fucked. get a bullet that works BETTER. concept. i guess ignorance is bliss. my job is done here. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 4:59:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
nope but read enough from people that have. and isnt that why LE moved to soft point? and the military moved to 855A1? what's the deal with you fmj guys? are you just to poor or uninformed to afford decent SD ammo and have to belittle anyone that doesnt share your justification? isnt the point of stopping a thread, to stop it as fast as possible? sure any bullet will kill you, given time without medical but why screw around when they could take a hit and return fire and hit you, then you are fucked. get a bullet that works BETTER. concept. i guess ignorance is bliss. my job is done here. the primary impetus for the move to 855A1 was to remove lead. It was a green initiative first. I think it is comparable to 855 in penetration. LEO doesn't concern me, as the question wasn't directed towards LEO. But I would say for the patrol carbine, maybe 70% of engagements will require shooting through things, primary sheet metal, which 855 was designed for. If I was a cop, I would want 855 before mk 262 or JHP. Maybe some of the bonded stuff, I don't know how it compares to 855 in barrier penetration. If you are interested in learning from people who HAVE shot someone, specifically with 855, multiple times, you could just stfu and read what I am saying. bullet performance is 2%. Bullet placement is 98% And I can't place a bullet if it doesn't get there in the first place. If your job is to not only demonstrate abject ignorance but also misplaced arrogance, your job is certainly done here. now shush. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 5:25:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that would be assuming you are shooting a 20" barreled rifle, which 99% of arfcomer's DO NOT. and by looking at your pic, you're sure not getting 3250. 
Yeah cuz I don't have any 16" barreled rifles. LC M193 in a 16" avg 3136 for me FYI The gun in my avatar is a 10" 300blk with subs btw so yes its quite unlikely its hitting 3k+. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 5:28:39 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M193 out of a 16in barrel is still moving at 2900-3000fps. Plenty fast enough for the round to perform properly. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:56:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what's the deal with you fmj guys? are you just to poor or uninformed to afford decent SD ammo and have to belittle anyone that doesnt share your justification? 
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Posted: 8/4/2017 10:08:36 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair, if it's happening, pretty much any flavor of 5.56 or .223 is going to kill a person at average gunfight distances. I honestly believe that we over think the issue of the best ammo. My preferred ammo will be the kind that goes bang everytime. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 3:52:31 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
so since civilians get to use whatever ammo they damn well please what would you pack as your "sweet baby jesus the fan is covered in shit" ammo? Ive been using just standard m193 and 855 since its usually cheap in bulk but lets pretend that price isnt a factor and lets also pretend that m855a1 is still basically impossible to get. What 5.56 or .223 load would you use? I thought about 64gr speer since can stock up on a lot for $.50 a rd at palmetto, but then i was like...but its your go to ammo, why not spend double and go for mk262? Speer is superior to mk262, that stuff only costs more cuz it's an official military round and neck beards will gladly pay more for that. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 3:53:33 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm with this guy Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
M193 is all I use. To be fair, if it's happening, pretty much any flavor of 5.56 or .223 is going to kill a person at average gunfight distances. I honestly believe that we over think the issue of the best ammo. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:43:06 AM EDT
[#45]
My go to ammo for any situation is federal 5.56 TBBC. I have a few bags of Ranger bonded 5.56 too. After that it's whatever I grab which is M855/193.
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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:35:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Speer is superior to mk262, that stuff only costs more cuz it's an official military round and neck beards will gladly pay more for that. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:44:59 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only real advantage I can see with mk262 over the 64g GD would be long term storage and maybe a little better at range. Both of those are a maybe though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only real advantage I can see with mk262 over the 64g GD would be long term storage and maybe a little better at range. Both of those are a maybe though. The heavy OTMs, like MK262, are great for longer distances. As my stash gets older I shoot it in matches. Almost as accurate as my hand loads. It gives me some flexibility. It is good in an SBR or a precision gun. I personally don't want barrier blind. I know shot placement and all, but still I don't want barrier blind. Personal preference. Quoted:
no. i think what he's getting at is the m193/855 crowd. wonder if those guys use FJM ball ammo for their self defense loads in their CCW pistol too? so much bravado on "any bullet will do" mentality. we should all know that isnt true. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 1:32:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Curious why people so concerned with bullet performance stick with 5.56 for "oh shit" when you have 6.5G or 6.8 which are so much better
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Posted: 8/6/2017 1:53:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Curious why people so concerned with bullet performance stick with 5.56 for "oh shit" when you have 6.5G or 6.8 which are so much better sure theyre good rounds but their only main advantage i can think of besides ballistics is that they still fit into an ar15 over an ar10. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 2:11:48 PM EDT
[#50]
for those who think that yaw dependant rounds just ice pick when they don't fragment:
M855 and Mk262 @ 350m |
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