Wow Shooting_Sigs, that's some damn good shootin. Was that done with the EOTech and magnifier?

I just got my Spikes upper with LW barrel today. I'm going to try to go to the range tomorrow and shoot some targets. I sure hope I can turn in a target like that. :)

VASCAR2,

That was the best one for the day . I added another target from a different day below at 50 yrds.. The first shot in the 8 ring low was just me not the gun, then i had 3 shots group fairly good. The white on the bottom of the target is not a hole shot in it , I don't know where that came from. I am trying a few different kinds of ammo to see what it likes. CCI MIni Mags & Winchester Super X shoot prety nice grops as well.

MustangGreg66,

That was with the Eotech and Magnifier. Good luck with yours, and hope you enjoy it .They are alot of fun to shoot.




http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214/buckmaster07/620a3e96.jpg

25 yard accuracy tests with various ammunition, Spike's 16" Lothar Walther Dedicated Upper, Spike's Tactical Lower (Actually Pre Spike's, Ted's) built with standard DPMS parts, scope set to 5X for all tests.
I did not zero the scope, it shot where it shot. I believe I fired Federal Bulk last.

These tests were done, resting the rifle with the support of the bench / platform / table, me in a seated position using a folding metal chair. I don't know what an official name would be for the table. It's roughly 15" x 42" and folds up out of the way on one side for access to the downrange area, which is a dangerous thing to do.   No rifle rest, rifle vice, sand bags or anything else, just me, that thing, "Whatever It Is" and the rifle. I should have tried to explain that a long time ago. It's the same position as I've used to shot since this post started. I did slow the rate of fire some for today's testing but I'm just not "Sniper Material" any more. Not enough patience. The reason I'm explaining this now is that I'm testing for absolute accuracy, I want everyone to know, this is the best that I can possibly shoot without mechanizing how the rifle is held on the target.

Remember, a lot of black comes off these targets when a bullet goes through. That's Shoot-N-See.
These are all 5 shot groups.
4th and 5th target sets only,I used a digital caliper for measuring from actual center to actual center of the farthest 2 hits on each target center.

Left, 1st target: I didn't bother to measure, Remington Thunder Bolts. I know atleast 5 went bang out of the entire box.

2nd set (Top and Bottom) of targets: Winchester 333, also pretty sad in my rifle.

3rd set of targets: This is the Aguila 60gr that did so well with a 1 in 7 twist last week. Not in a 1 in 16 LW this week.

4th set of 3 targets: Shot with Eley Prime, Match Pistol Ammunition:
Top: 0.310 worst hit to hit.
Bottom and the right center targets: 0.390

5th set of 3 targets: This was with CCI Green Tag, Competition Ammo:
Left center target of the 3 measures 0.335
Bottom right target: 0.240
Top right target: 0.200

Note: On that very last target listed, if you look closely, there appears to be a hit that's high, that's not a hole, that's some of the black that was left untouched. The actual hits were well below that and are visible as white of the paper towel background. The bottom right target may look to be a tighter group but it's not when measured. See 2nd picture, below..

SpecOps-13

Very Good thread.  It has a lot of info in it to help people like me who are shopping.  

MAHA

Mahamotorworks: I hope that this will grow to include all the options and information members will need to make an informed choice with confidence when they decide to buy or build an AR-22.

badazzar15: Thanx for the compliment. The pressure's just beginning for me. I believe I'm gonna need to do some tricking out on the lower I'm using. Next step for the Lothar Walther is 50 yards, trying for 5 shot groups in less than 1/2". Then, if I live long enough 100 yards in less than 1". That one will be all on me. The rifle should be up for it. I have to find the right ammo. So I'm the unknown factor there. It'll be a while before I can accomplish all of that.

I'd like to go to the outdoor range in Hernando County or Manatee after the temperatures come down a little. Since it's 60 or 70 miles one way to either, I'll be spending the day and shooting more than 22's.

My next plan is to test the Green Mountain Upper with some of the better ammo. I'd like to see how the Eley and the CCI Green Tag work with it. I'm also working on some better targets that I can make on my computer, possibly with a small area next to each target for an abbreviated report. The Shoot-N-See's are expensive to use for 5 shot groups.

SpecOps-13 / Dave

For targets, get some either commercially printed ones, or find a source of tagboard to print your own.  Shoot-N-C's are good for sighting, not for precision.  I have also used cardstock for printing targets.  You can find it in a 67lbs and 110lbs variety.

AzizaVFR: The card stock sounds like the way to go. Commercially available targets just don't seem to fit my plan. The Shoot-N-See targets are great as you say for sighting in but trying to photograph the results with a glare is a PITA. Thanx for the suggestions.


I picked up some CCI Standard Velocity Ammo to try in my next test. 25 yards with good ammo and Spike's Green Mountain Upper. CCI Green Tag just isn't available locally but I'll try some of what I have left and Eley Prime too.  Which ammo will GM will like best? I'll let you know, soon.

SpecOps-13

Thank you for all your time and testing. This thread gets checked daily.

I just had to use this post number here, it's 1000. Tactical Solutions is possibly offering a special group buy on a Custom SBX Barreled Upper.
May even be serial numbered and have the ARFCOM Logo, Guess which serial # I've asked for...... 13  
I've heard that these barrels are pretty accurate, competition for the Lothar Walther, maybe we'll see in the not so distant future.

My attempt at a target removed to save space, See AzizaVFR post #18 below with a link to a pdf file containing 3 targets. The white center with the Bold Black outline seems to be the best for me @ 25 yards so far.

SpecOps-13

Printed out okay.

What size is the inner and outer rings when you print?

When I print to fit the page I get inner just under 1" and outer just under 2".  When I print it actual size I get inner at 1" and outer at 2 1/8".

All measurements approximate as I'm using a yardstick and just got home from 1st day of our gunshow.

Thanks

Target: I printed mine at actual size and they came out exactly the same measurements as yours. 1" inner circle and 2-1/8" outer.

I'll be doing 50 and 100 yard testing with Spike's Lothar Walther once the temperature comes down to the 80's or below. Probably Oct. or Nov..

Added After Range Trip:

I didn't like the target I made. See my post above, bold large print just above the target for an explanation...

As soon as I got through the door at the range, I was handed a 7-1/2" Spike's Tactical Pistol,  M-261, 22 Conversion installed and a box of CCI Mini Mags. The Range Master didn't like the way it was set up with a scope and laser he'd added. So we took the scope off, battery was dead anyway. He wants me to zero the laser at "Whatever Distance". Well, you gotta understand, spend a great deal of money on a totally tricked out pistol. Then buy a $29.97 Sight Mark Red 5 MW Laser with Pressure Pad, second hand with no instructions and no hex keys. This was about 10:45 am.

I took all my stuff and set it on the bench for the lane next to where I was going to be shooting, that lane was "Out of Order" anyway.

I set up to get the laser sighted in. It's got a push / pull arrangement between 2 set screws for L&R and U&D. Loosen 1 and tighten the other to make an adjustment and lock it in at the same time. Well, that's fine, except when I adjust Up or Down, Left and Right changes and Visa Versa. To top that off, the chair I was using to shoot from broke and dumped me on the floor, @$#%^$#. About 12:15 PM and a hundred rounds I finally hit a good zero. The RM tested fired it on a target and was happy. Thank God..... And, No I don't recommend this laser to anyone.

The point to me writing this in with my testing? Even with all that was working against this pistol shooting well, it ended up punching holes within a 3" target center. If he tries firing .223 / 5.56, the laser may self destruct but atleast the first shot should be in the kill zone. He's on his own if there are 2 intruders. As I am finding out, for serious work cheap pointing or sighting devices just "Don't Make The Program". On my Defensive weapons, I have good optics or lasers. I've been lax with most of the 22's and installed $20 an $30 dollar scopes which for plinking are fine.

It's 12:30 by the time I started shooting my rifle ( Spike's Green Mountain Upper ). I'm swimming in my shirt by then. I put up 1 target ( 5 Centers ) for each of the 4 ammo's that I'd brought and fired 25 rounds of each. 5 shots on each Center. Then I hung 1 last target and used 5 rounds of each ammo on Centers 1,2,4 and 5. As it turned out the groups were very similar to the 5 groups I'd fired for each ammo to start with.  So, I'm only posting the 1 "Combo" target to show the results.

Someday, when my son graduates with a degree in Astro Physics, maybe he'll explain how and why ammo acts the way it does. The Lothar Walther really liked  CCI Green Tag and Eley and I believe it would also like CCI Standard Velocity. This GM Barrel loved Federal Bulk in a previous accuracy test, here it liked Winchester Bulk. Amazingly it loved Eley or I'd say run the cheap ammo in this barrel. I don't understand the difference in ammo likes and dislikes from the super groups of the Lothar Walther last week to these groups this week.

Eley Prime Match Pistol is a safe bet in either barrel......

I'll be drawing up a better target before the next trip. I actually think this target may have worked better with an EOTech than with this scope. The target really made me work for the groups that I did get.

I believe the rifle would have fired tighter groups with a better target and scope. No, I don't think it'll be competition for Spike's, Lothar Walther. But it's not bad.

SpecOps-13

Shot last weekend at German Nationals:
Prone position, 50 meters, iron sights, unsupported, 10 ring is 1.33"

http://tetragun.de/AR15_22_50m.gif

My setup: OlyArms Lower, Chip McCormick drop in trigger, dedicated .22 upper with Ciener bolt, Lothar Walther barrel, Lyman sights.
Ammo was RWS Rifle Match "S"

Cheers,

Michael

Spec,

Here is a target I made for a different challenge.  It is actually used for a 25 yard off-hand shooting position, doing 5-shot groups per bullseye.  The inner bull is 1.25", while the outer ring is 2"

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=666082&dn=y

There are three versions within the PDF, one with a full black ring, one with a 50% grey fill, and the last one with a 25% grey fill.

GunTalker:  Great Range Report. I was just waiting for a chance to tell you that. Nice group for 50 Meters.
Especially without optics..............

AzizaVFR: That might just work for what I'm doing. Thanx I saved it to my desktop so I can print some out.
I may try an x across the center to help with alignment..????

Spec

Added 9/13/2009:  Tom (Spike's) has a thread / post that's checking the water for a 1:9" twist 22 barrel. He wants to see our opinions of what and if we want it. Initially he told everyone it would be very specialized in the ammo that it will fire, Aguila 60gr SSS.

I took a good candidate for accuracy in a .223 upper with a 1:9" twist to shoot today. My thoughts were that a 16", 1:9" twist .223 will handle bullets ranging from 40gr to an absolute max of 73gr. For ammo I took the Aguila SSS 60gr, CCI Green Tag 40gr, CCI Standard Velocity 40gr and Eley Prime Match Pistol 40gr.

I am still working to find a target that I like to shoot that shows hits well and has provisions for a write up. That's why the collage of targets for today's shooting. All shooting was done at 25 yards.
The targets shown represent as closely as possible the average size of all targets that were shot today. The best group, The worst group and average groups are represented...

A Dime is 11/16",  Penny is 3/4", Nickel 27/32", Quarter, a little over 15/16" The farthest hits of the day were the 1" group fired with 20 rounds of CCI Standard Velocity, shown at the top left. Just slightly larger than a quarter. The other sizes shown in the picture are 5 round groups with the ammo listed for each.

CCI Standard Velocity average group was just under the size of a dime.
CCI Green Tag average size was 1/8" smaller than a dime. It was the most consistant ammo I fired today.
Eley Prime average was the size of a dime.
Aguila SSS had some FTE's and averaged just under the size of a dime.

This, with a Spike's Conversion Unit and a Standard 1 in 9 twist AR-15 Barrel.
I can't wait to shoot this new 22 barrel.

Well, this is just terrific. I just got my first AR together, not even sighted in yet (waiting for the big brown truck of goodness to deliver my cleaning kit) and after bumping into this I'm 99.9% convinced that I want to buy a 22 upper to go plinkning on the cheap!

Cheapest brass .223 (brass is a requirement for future reloading) I can find delivered is $.38 per, not including delivery,(and that's a pretty good deal, all things considered!) but .22 is .04 delivered!! Thats nearly 10 times as much fun per dollar!

That would give me plenty of range time/trigger time (sorely needed for this noob)

Now, please, someone convince me that my wallet can handle this!

First post. Shot my 6920 with the CMMG conversion. 1/7 twist so obviously not ideal, but groups were touching at 25 yds with mini mags. Went to clean it and noticed the fouling was like sand? is that normal? Or is there something else going on? Cleaned up ok, but I certainly don't want to mess up an expensive rifle to save money on ammo.

oilstain: Hope my IM was convincing. It doesn't take long to pay for itself.

Starbelly: Depends on the ammo you were using what the residue left behind will look like.
Never noticed CCI Mini Mags leaving a sand residue behind???? I can't think of anything else that
may have caused it. As long as it cleaned up alright....

Try some Aguila SSS 60gr when you want to make some
tight groups. It worked great for me in the 1:7" Colt.

BTW, Welcome to ARFCOM to both of you......

Spec

Thanks for the welcome and the IM. It's that kind of thinking that gets me into trouble, what's the quote? Oh yeah:

"We're going broke saving this much money!"

Seems I keep myself broke, otherwise my Health Care Providers are buying those Dr Truck Things, called Escalade.
If Teens and Geriatrics would quit running into me, I could stop the Dr. part.

Women go broke saving money. "It was on Sale".

Men go broke, either paying those bills or having too much fun.

I prefer the latter.

I have a bigger problem, I don't know which rifle to shoot this weekend. nothing I really need to test. I may actually take a Bulk pack of Federal and just totally frag a target. see how long it takes to shoot 550 rounds with reloading mags in the mix. That should totally piss the range master and everyone else totally off. I hope there's a Homeland Security Qualification going on. They can't hit the target worth a crap anyway. I still have the bullet fragments from where one of them hit me with a ricochet. They destroy the target frames, ceiling tiles, walls and floor quite well. God help us with people like that defending us.

Have a great weekend,
Spec

Just recieved an aluminum Velocity Firearms dedicated 22lr upper, mated it to a Delton lower..nice set up except the bolt will not engage into full battery (there is a small gap) when charged, about 70% of the time, any constructive comments on what the problem may be will be greatly appreciated..the unit was cleaned and lubed to no avail..wanted to shoot it on sunday, but now i have to wait to call Velocity on monday to see whats up?? great forum..thx

I've seen Ciener kits do this same thing and the Velocity upper uses a modified Ciener kit.  There are several things that could be causing this and I'll try to list some of the ones I've found.  With the metal 10 Round mag or BDM type mag could be dragging on the bottom of the bolt.  You can check this to see fi the bolt continually goes into battery with no magazine after firing single rounds.  If its a problem with Ciener metal mag you can use pliers to adjust the lip height.  On BDM mags a little sandpaper to lower the lips till the bolt clears.  Check the cut out on the side of the barrel for the extractor to ride when the bolt goes closed.  The bolt should drop freely into battery with the upper and lower apart and no recoil spring.  Make sure your not using a gas buster charging handle or are having the bolt drag on the charging handle.   Make sure the bolt is not dragging on the bolt stop or hammer when cycling.   A couple of friends bought velocity uppers and the recoil springs were junk.  They fixed their uppers by buying a Lakeside spring kit from Black Dog Machine.  They cut one spring till they had their uppers functioning with their preferred ammo.   The two velocity uppers I've been around were pretty accurate and once tweaked by their owners functioned pretty good.  If you have to order springs from Black Dog Machine its a good idea to get a replacement firing pin.  With a standard weight hammer the firing pins break after only a few thousand rounds.  Good luck I hope you get your upper sorted out.

The 0.200 group that I pictured above in my post # 958 has come under question in another post. Thank You for questioning my integrity. Someone should and I welcome it.  Here's some additional info and pictures that I posted there. You decide.

I'll agree that the Shoot-N-See Targets aren't the best to show group size because of the way they react when hit. They tend to leave Raggedy Ass Edges so that when they're pulled from the original target and placed on a paper towel, they aren't easy to photograph to represent the actual hits. I did the actual measurements while at the range and the target was still untouched. I would have done the photography then but others wouldn't appreciate my doing that. I've mentioned the problem with representative targets here in this post and the fact that I'm looking for one more easily photographed.. I'm not claiming a world title for this group, it would serve no purpose for me to cheat, fib or lie. I tried to get the best photographs I could, in enough variety that even I can see where your doubt comes from.


The left picture shows 0.200 marked by 2 dots with a ball point pen. I used the strongest magnifiers I have and an actual 22 bullet to line up with the holes to accurately mark these. The center picture shows that the bullet covers those dots and is setting off the surface on top of the Caliper. The bullet measures 0.225 at the point that it covers the 2 dots. The right picture shows the bullet pushed to the point into the caliper where it measures 0.200. The other pictures that I posted had an "O" that I placed in the vicinity of the hits using my computer. Obviously that wasn't accurate enough. They are actually too far apart. If I lay 2 bullets tip to tip facing each other side by side, the hole is totally hidden, raggedy edges included.

I don't know what else I can do to prove my case. I'd offer to send you the actual target but I don't believe I need to defend myself to that extreme.
If I do then I'm of no use to the people of this site and need to quit posting. I serve no good purpose. Even if I produce witness's to the actual measurement
at the range, Their authenticity could be questioned.

Sincerely,
SpecOps-13



Added: I left the 0.0005 on the caliper in the first 2 pictures just to see if  someone picks up on that.



I took 40 pictures and felt the lighting and reflection on this one were as good as I can get.
If you compare closely, you can see that the bullets by far overlap the actual holes.

Spec,

Being an amateur machinist and one that uses calipers a great deal will have to say your caliper needs to be zero'ed.  The typical round for a.22LR is 0224" in diameter.  Even just below the case mouth should measure 0.224"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/22_long_rifle.svg/180px-22_long_rifle.svg.pngg

Also, Shoot-N-C's are the worst thing to measure.  Get a pack of targets from Walmart using the beige tagboard, then use the following link for accurate measuring for Center-To-Center (C-T-C).  If you scan in your targets, you could also use the program OnTarget to verify group sizes and accuracy.

IMHO:  My take on all this is that the group is very small and something for all of us to strive for.  Whatever the actual group size - it is small and good shooting.  Maybe we need to get different targets but I think we are all on the right track to see which combos of barrels, ammo and sighting systems produce the tightest groups.  

MikeS1970:  Thank you for advise that we should take to heart....... And, I will Soon.

Sincerely.
SpecOps-13

The only reason I mentioned that the group had been questioned is that I felt I could better explain and show how the measurements were made. Now. I'm under question as are my digital caliper, Shoot-N-See Targets and the actual diameter of a fired bullet.

My caliper is Zeroed prior to every measurement I make. They matched exactly with the calipers used on the line of Federal Ammunition. They measure exactly the same dimensions as the machinist who does prototypes of AR Accessories for me. Those parts work and fit perfectly fine.

This group measures 0.200 period, center line to center of the 2 worst hits. I explained and showed that when 2, 22 rounds are placed side by side,  they more than cover the holes in the target. 2 cases sides together measure 0.448. Half of that is 0.224 which covers the dots marking the center to center hits as shown in the picture. My measurement isn't from the outside of the bullet hits, It is from the center, to the center of the 2 farthest hits.

The barrel squeezes the bullet down in size as it passes through. I would expect that through a Lothar Walther it would be down to 0.218 or so, considering this is a match quality barrel. That would make the outsides of the holes at 0.418 or very close to that. Minus half of the 0,218 for each of the 2 bullets.  That makes 0.200 center to center. I explained how the target was measured..... The actual holes in the Shoot-N-See measured 0.330.  If I use that measurement the actual center to center group size is 0.112 but I allowed for error where the edges of the hits didn't totally tear the Shoot-N-See off cleanly when they passed through.

 I'm working on finding better targets for representation purposes, I've already used about every target imaginable in my lifetime. I'm doing a test and learn thing here and will make my own or test what others send me. When I exhaust those, I may well decide to use a standard target or I may not. This post is about testing and experimenting to find better ways to improve the AR-22 experience.

I'm over defending my measurement. As I said, I'm not applying for a world title from this. I've explained and shown how the measurements were made from every angle I can imagine. If others wish to continue saying that I'm wrong, you're on their own. I'll rely on those who see the pictures and read my explanation to decide for themselves. I'm past this and I'm going to get on with with what I've always intended intend to do with this post, help others......

Spec.

Spec,

Here are a couple of targets I used for testing two of my bolt rifles with cheap ammo.  You shoot four groups of five rounds, plus four measuring shots.  You average your measuring shots to give you the bullet diameter.  For your groups, measure the farthest distance between shots.  Take that measurement, then subtract the bullet diameter for a true center-to-center group distance.  

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/BB_Federal_510.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/W52_SK_Standard_Plus.jpg

Hope this helps to give a visual to the words above.

Thank You for turning this in a positive direction.
Maybe we can help a few others who may do as I've done.
If I would have placed a dime next to the group and said no more, everybody would have felt that it
was a very good group and that would have been the end. I placed numbers to it and that's
where the controversy came into play. Read on and you'll see why....


Yes, AzizaVFR used the preferred,  precise method of calculating a group size.
The correct and proper way to do measurements when using a standard target.

There in lies the problem with Shoot-N-See Targets, they aren't standard by any means,
they don't tear away in the same manner as a more commonly used target material.
They tend to self heal to an extent. making it difficult to get a good measurement.
By the proper method the group I'm calling 0.200, center to center is  0.330 outside to outside
at the farthest points where the bullets impacted.
The individual bullet print on this type target isn't consistent in size to get a diameter for subtraction.
If I take 0.218 as I mentioned for the LW and subtract it from  0.330, I'd come up with 0.112
as a group size. That's not right, estimating the center of the actual hits is the only way of attempt to get
a group size with a Shoot-N-See. My Bad, in choice of a target. Maybe others will learn from this.
If it absolutely counts and will be scrutinized by those who know how it must be done,
Use a standard target. I did the best calculation of the actual group size that I could given the circumstances.
I honestly believe that if anything I calculated the size of this group the opposite of being in my favor.

Here's an extremely blown up picture showing 3, 0.177 BB's laid over the actual opening in the Shoot-N-See.
It's blown up a little to far, out of focus, but you can see that 0.354 covers the opening where 5 bullets went through.
Again, this is not a good target to use when measuring groups and all the controversy is really my fault.

Spec

I tested the Spikes Tactical .22 kit today, and I must say I'm happy with it.  I used the BDM mag that came with it.

The rifle I installed it on was a 16" CM 1x9, mid-length.

My first mag downrange was Fed Bulk pack, and it was a jam-o-matic.  At least half stove-piped, but fed the next round into the chamber every time.
Then I ran through 100 rounds of CCI Mini-Mags, same results.  Lots of stovepipes.
When I switched back to the Fed Bulk pack, it ran 100% for the rest of the day (approx 300 rounds).

I wasn't expecting it to be 100% right out of the gate, and I figured after about 200 rounds it would even out.  It likes the Federal Bulk Pack, and I haven't put anymore Mini-Mags through it.

Overall, I'm extremely happy about it.  Once it got through its "break in" period, it ran excellent.  Today was more of a function check than anything, so I wasn't too concerned with accuracy.  I shot it on the 50 yard line at a 100M silhouette target, and most of them hit black with an unmagnified optic.

I would recommend a loader, because it tore up my fingers after re-loading the magazine all day.

VERY easy to clean.

Long story short, Tom (badazzar15) of Spike's put together an all out custom lower for me, at my request. I picked it up at the end of last week. While I was there Tom handed me a Lothar Walther 18" Bull Barrel Upper he'd built for himself. It's one of a kind right now. He wants it back but wanted me to take it and test it. It may be available to everyone if there's enough interest.

For the long story, if you haven't already and want to read it. The first post in this link will tell you more than you wanted to know: my post # 1118
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=461769


I wanted to test my Spike's Built Lower and Preliminary test badazzar15's Lothar Walther Bull Barrel Upper. Thoughts of waiting until I find just the right scope and Lothar Walther recommended ammo were killing me. So I took a plastic riser that was still in the box and put it on Tom's upper. I pulled an old Redfield 1-3/4 to 5 Teleview Scope that I've got on another rifle with a high ride upper receiver and put the 2 together. Looked like Crap with the Tan Riser but GTG for today. Set the Scope to 4x and got it close to being zeroed at 25 yards with CCI Green Tag. I tried the Eley Match Pistol but it just wouldn't group as tight as the CCI.

The 5 shot groups aren't bad for a start. The range had some antique NRA approved 75 ft. small bore rifle targets. Rather than get in a bind again over how big or small the groups are, they're referenced to the size of a dime. Until I can find the software to do the measurements for me.


Repost of the pictures of the lower and rifle. I post pictures of the rifle with the scope when I find what I'm looking for. Not the setup I used today.


Spec

Well you did ask nicely...

OnTarget

Your results:

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u184/AzizaVFR/BangToys/Targets/Spec-13_target.jpg

Wow, is that cool software or what. You're my best buddy. Cool.
Now I only have to wake up so I understand what just happened,
Thank You AzizaVFR.


I forgot to mention the lower that Tom / Spike's built for me. There's no take up,
no over travel with the Wilson Combat Trigger Pack. The pull measures right at 4 lbs.
It's clean and crisp  The Magpul ACS works as good as it looks. I want to thank everyone
at Spike's who had a hand in putting it together. Special thanks for working my logo
to make it look so good. Special thanks to Tom for taking the time to make it happen.

SO-13

PS: ADDED, LW recommended Fiocche? (40 gr), Eley? (40 gr), Federal Match, and Wolf MT.

Everyone of those rounds are subsonic match ammo at sea level.  It sounds like Tom has that recoil spring for the bolt set just right.

After speaking with Tom on several IM's, I called up Spikes this morning and special ordered the "SpecOps" Bull Barrel. Its a LW 18", 1:16 twist, stainless, target crowned dedicated barrel. I should have it in a couple of weeks. Same barrel SO-13 is testing.

I made an order today for a couple hundred dollars ( Ouch!!) of Fiocchi Exacta Rifle Super Match, Eley Match Rifle
and Federal Premium Gold Medal Ultra Match. Expected delivery isn't soon. Over a week. I just couldn't find anything local.

Range Day. I didn't have any of the right ammo so I took a mixed bag, Remington Golden Bullets,
Winchester 333, CCI Match Pistol, CCI Standard Velocity and Eley Match Pistol. All for 5 shot groups. I'm still experimenting
with targets but think I like the one used for CCI today. The new Pentax Scope and American Defense Mount were great. Picture below.

I fired the Winchester and Remington first just to see if the scope was anywhere near zeroed.
I tweaked a little as I fired. The groups were what I'd expect for bulk ammo. enough said.
Yes, This upper loads, fires and ejects Remington Golden. Just like Tom said.
9 didn't go bang out of 50 though, no matter how many hits on the primer

I don't think any of today's groups were good enough to write home about, None were terrible for the ammo used.


The surprise of the day was CCI Standard Velocity Ammo. It's inexpensive and with a little effort pretty accurate.
I was doing the final tweaks on the scope while I was shooting it, as is evident with the left target. Never did get it
perfect on the bull. I didn't want to waste the good ammo adjusting the scope for the standard velocity ammo's.
I figured the Eley and CCI MP would kick butt compared to this stuff.

NOT!

I fired the Eley MP next. I didn't post any pictures of the groups because they were very similar to the CCI MP
for group size.

Lastly, I fired the CCI MP. Although not terrible, I really thought the match pistol ammo's would do better.
Guess that's why they're named Match Pistol.


Spec

Nice groups! What's the measurements center-to-center? Just kidding! How far were you shooting? 25 yards or 50 yards? What's the magnification on your scope and what did you have it set on when you shot those groups? Thanks...keep up the good work.

I've tried the On Target program. I come up with different figures all the time.
I need to really study it some more before I start making claims.
The bull on the 6 targets at the top is 5/16", guess from there.

The Scope is a Pentax Whitetails Unlimited 4.5 - 14x 42mm. set to 5x
I was shooting at 25 yards.

I saw an Old Buddy Friday night who wants me to shot at his range.
That'll get me out to 50 yards without making an entire day of driving and shooting.
Still hopeful to gain access to a private range but that all depends on a middleman
getting me an introduction. That would get me to ranges that a 22 isn't capable of.

Spec

yeah thats why i like my inlaws owning a 178ac farm.  we set up the targets and walk off 50yrds, 100yds, and yesterday we stretched out to 150.  If we had the 4wheeler to go check targets or a decent spotting scope we would have gone back farther. i was grouping 1.5" at 150 balancing my pmag on the tailgate

That is one great looking lower! I also really like the American Defense mount. Nice groups also.

Repost for the Sticky plus little bits added here and there.

Picture of the whole rifle in one place.


I ordered Eley Match .22, 40 gr Round Nose, Fiocchi Exacta Rifle Super Match .22, 40 gr Round Nose,
and Federal Premium Ultra Match Gold Medal .22, 40 gr Round Nose Ammunition from Midway USA.

I corresponded, as may have been mentioned with CCI. I'm running out of CCI Green Tag and Standard Velocity
for testing. I asked them for some assistance and was told that those products were on 6 to 12 month backorder
So they were unable to help me. Too bad, I'd like to compare both at longer ranges. I'll have to be very sparing with
what I have left of each.



The targets shot at 25 yards:
#1 through #4 are all 5 shot groups for each target and ammo type.

I ran figures on just the maximum Center to Center for the 3 Ammo's.
Only one group came out really bad and that was me pulling the rifle
(How things change so quickly,,, Now a group just over 1/2" is Bad.
A couple months ago, it would have been a spectacular group).
Remember, I'm just learning the On Target Software so I may be off by a couple thousandths.
0.250 is equal to 1/4", in all only 2 of the 12,  5 shot groups was larger than that.

Center to Center Max Only.

Eley Target:
#1 = 0,224
                  #2 = 0.228
                  #3 = 0.579
                  #4 = 0.241




Fiocchi:    
#1 = 0.222
                 #2 = 0.287
                 #3 = 0.226
                 #4 = 0.174




Federal:  
#1 = 0.135
                 #2 = 0.126
                 #3 = 0.154
                 #4 = 0.208




Federal Premium Ultra Match came out the winner here although not by much.. Guess it should win
by atleast a little, it costs more than twice as much as the other 2 ammo's. CCI Green Tag and Standard
Velocity would be close contenders too. Hell, everything's pretty accurate in this setup.

I couldn't resist doing a little stress relief after so many planned, calculated, boring, sniper style shots.
So here's one of my 150 round targets with Federal Bulk. I ripped through them as fast as I could acquire the target.
I was only using 1 magazine so it gave me a break to sit down and reload it. I fired standing, sitting, leaning on the left
wall, the right wall. It actually drew a small group of onlookers. Another "Old Guy" said he'd never been interested in rifles
but the one I was shooting was the finest he'd ever seen. He asked if it was an AK-47 made in .22. That was a "Priceless Moment".
I explained to him that it was more like an M16 / AR-15. He even asked me where he might get one.

This group is appx 1-1/4" x 1/2", not bad for just totally screwin around.






Spike's should have some form of this upper available in the not too distant future.
Probably working out the actual parts and pricing details.
Let them know if you're interested.

SpecOps-13

I've read all 6 pages, but afa considering a conversion i don't know which to go with Spikes or CMMG...advise please...paticularlly from those who have run both

I dont think you are going to get a right/wrong answer with that question.  Lots of guys swear by one or the other or even both.  I've owned both and still have one of each w/no complaints..

I'm in a similar quandary, I've decided to get a dedicated .22 upper. Now, which one?

CMMG - not the best deal, but I really like my other CMMG stuff

Spikes - lots of options, can get one of those super accurate barrels, but a bit pricey by the time you add it all up!

Non-arfcom-approved Tactical Solutions group buy Custom SBX Barreled Upper - IF this barrel could be competition for the Spikes w/upgraded barrel, this is a super deal.


I'm so confused!

I am looking at the same thing.  I am considering conversion, or full upper.  Money is the main concern right now.  I would love to have the Spike's LW barrel upper.  But it is really expensive.

It's more expensive, yes. BUT it appears to be totally worth it. I'm waiting on finding out if the newcomer's product is comparable...or at least close. If it isn't, then it's a no brainer, really.

I thought about it for a long time before I decided to get just the spikes conversion and use it on a m16a1 upper. I am happy with the choice as that it keeps a 1" group at 50yds and the ability too quickly switch the upper back to a 5.56. I also got real lucky in that the battle sight for the 5.56 also left me dead on at 25yds with the 22s, this is not the standard though and most will have to adjust their sights. If you are wanting to shoot some serious groups though get a dedicated upper and don't look back, myself however have plenty of tac-driving 22s "that's why this money pit of a 10/22 is hanging on my wall for over a year." and only wanted an alternative to shooting .35c a round ammo out of my AR.

I was having the same problem ($$$) so I opted for the Spikes conversion. After two range trips I loved my Spikes conversion so much that I went ahead and ordered a dedicated Spikes upper. It arrived yesterday and I can't wait to get out this weekend with it. One nice thing about the Spikes unit is you can start with the conversion bolt and later order an upper without the bolt and use the conversion bolt and save a few bucks.

Some of you wanted to see the conditions I've shot in since the beginning
of this post. I didn't have any pressing testing that I could do so I took my
Spike's Green Mountain Rifle out of the back of the safe, Grabbed a couple
boxes of Winchester 333 and a camera.

It was a BLAST to just go shoot without worrying about punching
5 shot holes under 1/4"... I went through about 600 rounds. The one box of 333
had a few missing from a previous trip. I ended up with a hole a little bigger than
a golf ball in the target. Who Cares..........

This is the SPPPC Inc. where I shoot small rifles and big handguns.
There's no AC in the shooting area, this is the first trip in well over 6 months
that the temperature wasn't between 110 and 125 F.

Spec

  Captured Info / Thoughts from Several "Lost" Posts, I'm only reposting what
I had written, Didn't quote anyone elses input. Safer this way..   .


The Never Ending Question, Which AR-22 Conversion is Best, Conversions Only

I've fired many of the conversions that are available, but not all. There are some overall differences,
but they all have the potential of functioning perfectly or very close to it. Except for a few "Scam Companies".
Most of you associate me with Spike's Tactical. They've been the most open to having me test their products.
I've also tested the CMMG SST Conversion and will soon be testing  a Tactical Solutions Upper and quite possibly
one for Ballistic Advantage if all goes well. Although the last 2 are dedicated uppers and we're only talking conversions
in this first topic. I have 6 Cieners. I've tested them and several Oly M261's that I've had. I've even fired a Colt Conversion, once.

I've come to some conclusions that may or may not be a surprise, depending on how long you've been
around the 22 conversions and how much you've done to make one function properly or even better.
Some work perfect right out of the package and others require a little or a lot of work to get them to that point.

Give me 50 of anyone's conversions and one rifle. I'll find, to varying numbers, some that fit and function great,
some that are alright or good and others that seem mediocre or terrible. Why,,,, how is this possible? All things are
not created equal. Give me a different rifle and the ones that seemed to be terrible may become great and visa versa.
I used to swap my Ciener Conversions from rifle to rifle till I found one that felt and shot right.

Let me say that none of the reputable mainstream manufacturers that we normally discuss here purposely let bad
products out their door. One Bad, written up here counteracts 1,000 Good. Some unforeseen products get by inspection
and fail in the hands of the consumer... What failed and how the manufacturer deals with this is very important. It's must
be quickly and correctly fixed. that's called damage control....

I know from personal experience that a picture is worth more than a thousand words. Someone can
explain till they're blue in the face but until I can visualize what they're saying, I can't fix the problem.
It helps immensely if you can photograph what you believe to be the problem. It saves a lot of time..

Now, how do you maximize a conversion? Make it as accurate and reliable as possible. Each manufacturer
has a troubleshooting post here or a sheet that comes with the conversion. That pretty much takes care of
most malfunctions. Broken or damaged parts they will replace. At this point there's something else that can be
done to improve your conversion.

Conversion Fit........ Each rifle, each upper, chamber and each lower are slightly different. Each chamber adapter, bolt, rail,
OAL of each conversion is slightly different. Some of this is caused by the tolerance the specific manufacturer considers
acceptable. If your whole bolt assembly, including the chamber adapter moves even slightly when you pull the
charging handle, that can affect accuracy and reliability. If you have a buffer and spring installed and you hear a
twang when you pull the trigger (Caused by the bolt assy pushing back slightly on the buffer and spring), you
can bet that your bolt assembly is moving. If when you install the bolt, there is a gap one way or the other at
the rear of the receiver (bolt assembly not flush with the rear face of the upper receiver) your bolt is either too
tight or loose at this point. Once you close the upper and lower. even a bolt assembly that was perfect to this point could be
wrong now. If you need a Gorilla to help you close the upper and lower, there's a problem.
One that could damage the conversion or even the rifle. Hand fitting your bolt assembly to the rifle you're going to use it in
or finding a rifle that it fits well in becomes a necessity. There are some simple fixes that anyone with common sense and
a little mechanical skill can accomplish.

There are many ways to make the fit right. In a topic below, I'll mention Aluminum Tape on the rear face of the bolt
assembly to fill any gap for a bolt assembly that's loose. There are other ways, o-rings on the chamber adapter allow
for a better fit in a broader variety of uppers and lowers. Spike's Chamber Adapters come this way. Some people use
tape or heat shrink tubing on the chamber adapter to do the same.

There are other factors that can be cause for concern, loose fit of the bolt on the rail (wobble) I've checked this on different
manufacturers bolts, some are pretty tight and others are loose. That's again is allowed tolerance when the parts were
manufactured. Not much can be done to correct this, so it can be lived with for the most part. You could likely get the
Manufacturer to replace the bolt assembly if it's too bad.

Who makes the best conversion? The opinions are all over this rimfire section. You can read all about it.
You have to decide which has the features you like best. It's the Chevy, Dodge, Ford debate all over again.
In actuality, it may be you that makes the best conversion using what a chosen manufacturer gave you.
You just have to decide in your mind which one gives you the best starting point..


Who Makes the Best Conversion or Dedicated Upper

Every day that I'm able I have visited the Rimfire Forum. I do my best to give answers to questions that are asked.
I try to find ways to make the answers last for a while. That's a hard thing to do. Even if I put the answers in this 22
Sticky, everyone tends to ignore them after a while because they've already read through them once. I especially
try to catch the Newbies questions and the questions that nobody seems to want to answer. I'm not always right
and I'm always open to others enlightening me on things.

I have been running tests on various 22 conversions and dedicated uppers for a few years now. At first, totally at
my own expense. As time has past several manufacturers have placed their faith in me to run Test and Evaluation
on their products. I've tried very hard to be impartial. To report the facts and let all of you make the decisions of
what you buy. Of the manufacturers I have worked with, there hasn't been any units that were junk. I have my own
preferences but you do or will too. Typically there are a few products that slip past anyone's QC. Other than that the
products that I've tested are all acceptable for your consumption. I have not shared any faulty parts that I have
run into with you but have contacted the manufacturers with my opinions and requests for replacement parts. This
has not occurred very often. If and when they respond I continue my testing. I see every manufacturer being bashed
unnecessarily over products that malfunction. Shit Happens, Try to give them a chance to fix the problem as I do.
Some products are better than others, Read closely what is written and you can figure that out on your own, based on
my testing results or that of others.

There are many things you can do to maximize any combination you buy. Whether it be a conversion unit for a standard
AR-15, a dedicated upper or complete rifle. First, make it as close to 100% functional as you can. Most of the manufacturers
are very willing to help you with this. Some give written instructions with your purchase. Others assist via E-Mails, IM's or
phone conversations.

Try various ammunition's. I've found very acceptable results with every combination I've tested, even the 1:7" twist with
a conversion unit. I once felt this was impossible to achieve. It's not the case.

The way your Lower is set up can make a huge difference in accuracy also. A standard combat trigger will give you very
little assistance in keeping your groups tight. You don't have to buy a $300 trigger assembly to make it better. There are
many ways to maximize what you have. It involves a little work or a small expenditure on your part.

The stock, grip and fore end will make a difference in how well you shoot also. They need to be right for You. Try some, see
how they feel, how the sights or optics will line up. Finding the best for one rifle may be totally wrong for another.

Optics, this is an extremely important factor for accuracy. I have a lot of inexpensive Scopes and Red Dots. I also have some
rather expensive scopes and EOTech's. I'd be totally broke if I had great optics on every rifle. For plinking almost any will do.
If you only have 1 rifle. Put the best you can afford on it, whether it be target sights, scope, combat optics or laser.
Note: The finer the Dot, Laser or Crosshair the better, Fat Dots, Laser or Crosshairs will cost you accuracy.

Other items can help, but I'm not going to get specific. Generalities would be anything that can make the rifle steadier or your
vision easier. Bipods, slings, rests or even a target that's easier for you to see. Some of the exotic muzzle devices will have a
negative effect on accuracy. KISS really applies to muzzle devices for 22's.

I won't give you my opinions about which manufacturer makes the best conversions or dedicated uppers. That's your decision.
Read the facts of my testing and that of others and figure that out for yourself.

Possibly Improve the Accuracy and Function of Your Conversion or Dedicated Upper


This will apply to a small number of conversions and dedicated uppers. Most uppers, lowers
and conversion bolt assemblies fit quite well.

For the few that don't:

Starting with a clean bolt and rifle. Pull the charging handle slowly back while watch the chamber
adapter or collar assembly on a dedicated upper. If the chamber adapter or collar moves slightly
rearward it means that the bolt assembly isn't a tight fit in your upper/lower combination.
This can cause a loss of accuracy that you didn't even know existed. The chamber adapter could be
seated slightly different with every shot. It can also cause feeding, firing and extraction malfunctions
that are difficult to isolate.

Dedicated and conversions bolt assemblies are made to fit a "Nominal" upper/lower combination.
Whether any hand fitting is done on the dedicated upper parts, I'm not sure. That would depend on
the manufacturer and the person doing the assembly. Even if they were hand fit, your lower may be
the cause of the loose fit.

Manufacturing processes aren't exact, so some bolt assemblies fit quite well and others won't and will
require a little modification. I've seen this bolt movement with some Ciener and CMMG Bolt Assemblies on
certain AR-15 upper and lower combinations. I haven't seen this with Spike's conversions because the o-rings
tend to hold the chamber adapter in place and somewhat compensate for slight tolerance variations. In fact, it
may take some effort on the charging handle to get their chamber adapter out of the chamber after being fired.
Depends on how many rounds you fire.

There have been attempts at forcing the chamber adapters and collars to stay in position fully forward.
Some will work, others haven't. CMMG uses a set screw on their dedicated upper. Many other attempts
have been made to correct this. I don't know that there is a perfect "Fix All".

The fix may be as simple as adding a piece of Aluminum tape like is used on air conditioning ducts to the back plate
of the rail assembly. I recommend that you clean the surface well first then cut the tape as closely as possible to the shape
of the "Whole" rear plate (Although the top is the most important area). This can be done with care, using an X-Acto Knife.
The added thickness of the tape will put some force on the bolt assembly to stay forward, layer it if needed.
This will quite possibly eliminating the light primer strikes, some FTF and FTE problems.

I've dealt with several Oly M261' s but they're generally too tight and you need a Gorilla to get
the upper and lower closed. Filing their rear plate in just the right places will correct the fit and make
the upper and lower close easier. Don't file too much.


A Fix???? May Be,,,,A Folding Stock to fix a loose 22 bolt assembly:  http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_36&products_id=347



SpecOps-13

Had my AR and CMMG Stainless .22lr conversion for just over a month and have had ZERO problems with the conversion. There is the issue of rimfire consistency, but that should and needs to be understood when using any of theses conversions. I have had maybe two or three fail to extract or feeds. I don't remember because I practice to keep shooting no matter what happens. Bad guys don't care if your system don't work. The reason I bought this kit was to practice rapid fire, and mag dumps and changes. For me it has been great. The wife also prefers to shoot the .22lr instead of the 5.56mm which means more time for us at the range.

The CMMG Conversion is well worth the cash and will being paying it's self off in another month or so.