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I haven't even had a chance to shoot mine yet.

Quoted: Note that he's put alot of the items on his website on sale, but hasn't mentioned his impending closing, nor does he say anything about the barrels possibly being not as advertised (buy at your own risk that it won't shoot combat loads).

Ok, Just from a reading comprehension standpoint, the title of your thread states "Ko-Tonics/Cardinal Armory is going out of business" then inside the post you state , "he's put alot of the items on his website on sale, , but hasn't mentioned his impending closing" , tim's mention is "What will happen to my company as a result of this remains to be seen." So no where in there would I make the assumption he is closing...so where did you derive this? If he is, Id like to get some of the sale items...

Quoted: Just to let you all know, Tim at Kotonics/Cardinal posted a couple of days ago over at 68forum that he finally traced down the problem some people have been having with his barrels blowing primers with SSA combat load ammo. I have pasted his post for those who are interested. www.68forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3117&st=0&sk=t&sd=a Quoted: In the past two weeks I have become aware of (yet another) problem with the barrels that have been shipping for the past year. Art K of Silver State confirmed with calibrated ammo fired through one of our latest barrels that excess pressure is still being exhibited, even when the chambers have been reamed and polished. Velocities from test ammo were over 100 feet/sec lower than expected. About a year ago I switched chrome companies. I made that change, trusting the advice of a company who has since then shown themselves to be severely challenged morally and ethically, but it was my decision to change and now the "chickens have come home to roost." Every problem that we have experienced has been due to this change. Chambers had excess chrome, and it took a while to work out a fix for this problem. Now it is virtually certain that the bores also have excess chrome. Over the weekend I ran lead slugs through barrels and found that the bores were as much as 0.0007 undersized. Excess chrome in the bore cannot be fixed. I know, I tried. I am considering legal action against the company that has been doing the chrome for our barrels, because of the damage that has been done. I have already contacted a company who is making air gage plugs to be able to air gage the bores of our barrels, and I have contacted the company that did our chrome at the beginning and informed them that all our barrels will be coing back to them. Until we have barrels that have been air-gaged, I can no longer guarantee that the Cardinal Armory barrel you have will handle combat loads reliably. It will be at LEAST two montch before we have air gage equipment in-place. I am going to lay it on the line with you. This is a serious problem. It is serious not from a technical aspect but from a business aspect. I have made every effort to supply the best quality product that I could, at a reasonable price. What will happen to my company as a result of this remains to be seen. - Tim unquote I have been having problems with my 6.8 upper blowing primers since May, and despite Tim re-reaming the chamber, later replacing the barrel, and Art at SSA exchanging the ammo, I am still having the issue. Several others have as well. See here for my ordeal: www.68forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2399 I talked to him today since he hadn't updated us about the situation, and was wondering what the prospects were of getting a barrel that was as advertised - ie, combat load capable - Here's the gist of it: Basically due to lack of funds to have more barrels made up and chromed by the old company, he's going out of business. No prospect of replacing my barrel with one that has a proper size bore, and so I'm stuck with crappy old Remington/Hornady ammo, not the hotter loads he sold it as being capable of safely shooting. I haven't gotten either of those ammoes, and so I can't even confirm that the barrel doesn't have a problem with them either. I am NOT happy, to say the least. I don't blame him for what the chromer's messed up; one major problem was that he had no contract with the chromer, and after talking to a couple lawyers that he said that he basically has no recourse with them. He has to eat it, and doesn't have the funds to make more barrels. Unfortunately no one else makes barrels with similar specs, so I am truly shit out of luck. A $839 upper that doesn't work properly. So what if it MAYBE shoots watered down ammo, it's still not as it was advertised. I could have bought a cheap RRA barrel instead if I had wanted that. Note that he's put alot of the items on his website on sale, but hasn't mentioned his impending closing, nor does he say anything about the barrels possibly being not as advertised (buy at your own risk that it won't shoot combat loads). I have been flamed before for warning people that something was amiss at a vendor, and I expect to be again, but this time I do have it from the horse's mouth as it were.

Quoted: I'm with you. If he's going out of business, I want to hear it in his voice plain as day. We're trying to be fair here by not destroying Tim's reputation in case he has intentions of making right but..... I, and others, have copies of an e-amail from him to another member stating CLEARLY that he is DONE, and as of this AM ARFCOM and 6.8Forum members calling him and him USING THOSE WORDS! I'm not sharing it publicly as it is second hand but make no mistake I have every word. I'm sure someone less kind is going to post it anytime now but I won't be the first. Not yet.

Hey if he has stated so in emails, and you have them, I have no reason to think otherwise, however this is news to me, and as he a Industry Partner here on Ar15.com it is not looked highly upon to speculate on such matters. If those emails state he is calling it quits, then so be it.  I would think he would make a formal announcement then simply allowing the peanut gallery do it for him is all. Again, if this is he case. I want in on some of the sale items... so I'd like to know if he is in fact shutting down.

Hey now, everyone.  Lets keep out cool, several people have said they have heard word from Cardinal Armory they are calling it quits.

Lets see if a statement is made in either this thread or his industry forum here on AR15.com by CA/Tim.  I am sure he knows about the threads now. I called the office number on his site to confirm but no one answered.  

No need to bicker and throw darts at one another.

Quoted: Hey, Cold, can we just delete this thread? I'm tired of the hassle, and frankly, regret trying to help anyone out. Let folk figure it out for themselves what's going on.

I think its a good idea to know if he is or is not going out of business, as this thread was the first I heard.  If people can stay civil, which seems to be the case for the most part, it is fine to stay as is. Several people have come forward and stated Tim said he is out of the game. Another member posted a link to a question in CA's industry forum. Lets see what happens, if this thread goes south I am sure Z, M4M or I will lock it, but as of now its all CoC compliant.  You did not do this maliciously so it seems so there is no reason to close it.  You were simply posting to let others know what was going on.

Spoke to CA just moments ago, long story short, it sounds like Cardinal Armory is going to liquidate current inventory.
What is sad is it sounds like he will be unable to offer a remedy to excess pressure in some barrels due to the Chrome Plater issue.

Quoted: Quoted: I talked to a company today by the name of NECO. He has firelapping abrasives and bullets similar to the Tubb's system. I explained the excess chrome issue to him and he said he thought his system would work in removing the excess chrome. You can roll your own bullets or get the bullets with the abrasives already imbedded in the bullet. What do you think? Have you or anyone else had any experience with that system? I wouldn't mind trying it but $70 for the kit is a lot if it don't work. 1 kit is supposed to do 10-12 barrels. NECO's process removes .0001" or less; Cardinal Armory's barrels may need up to .0007" removed. That's a LOT of very hard chrome.

Correct and there in lies the rub with the problem.

The Internet is an amazing place.  People say and do things that they would never say or do in person.

My business is in deep trouble.

Superior Plating has been applying too much chrome to SOME of my barrels.  This results in a constriction of single-digit ten-thousandths of an inch.  This results in higher pressure and lower velocity.

I test fired each and every upper we built with standard commercial ammo.  I have NEVER shipped an upper that exhibited pressure signs.  I am stunned and amazed that one poster writes that his upper showed pressure signs with standard commercial ammo.  If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) then I was never contacted about it.

TECHNICALLY, I have already researched a solution to the problem.  The excess chrome absolutely cannot be removed except by a chrome-plating shop.  I have already spoken with US CHROME and they said that yes, they could certainly do it.  TO do it we would need air gage plugs fabricated specifically for my rifling.  I have also identified two different companies that could make them for us.

We could not fix the barrels without air gage plugs.  In the mean time, I would have no product to sell.  And I would not have barrels to replace the defective barrels until we completed the fix, maybe eight to ten weeks.   That's eight to ten weeks with no product.

If you went to the doctor with one dollar in your pocket, and and the doctor told you that the cure would be $10.  What do you do?  Assuming you aren't into stealing, you walk out of the doctor's office with no cure, sick as before.

I am sick and ashamed about this.

I have no option for fixing this.  I am screwed.  And it's about money.  I am out of cash, and unable to make further commitments.

Some of you are (rightly) upset that the product is not fulfilling expectations.  I am sorry.  If it were in my power to offer you a fix, I would do so.  I could never foresee a set of circumstances in which this could take place.  But it did, and I am screwed.

For those of you who do not know.  I have been living for the last two and one-half years on our retirement annuity.  I built a few rifles for myself out of blemished parts, but other than that, I have not made any money from Ko-tonics/Cardinal Armory.  And I don't have any investment bankers or others sitting behind me bailing me out of trouble.  

I don't expect you to cry "Boo-Hoo."  I am not looking for your sympathy.  I am just telling you what is going on.

I will tell you this.  Many of you have kept my phone ringing off the hook calling to express your concern about what's happened.  To me it has been a little unreal.  I am grateful for your understanding and support.

A few of you are acting like your KT68 barrels and uppers are dangerously over-pressured.  I am mystified.  I shot a deer with a 6.8 carbine shooting Hornady ammo out of a CMMG 1:10 twist six-groove barrel a few years ago.  The bullet probably hit at 2,400 fps.  The deer fell over dead.  It appears that even at "low velocities" 6.8 proves to be quite deadly.

Nevertheless, you bought my barrels to shoot SSA combat loads, and if your particular barrel doesn't, I have done everything in my power to rectify that.

Some of you have written some things in this threads that I don't believe you would say or write if you were speaking to me in-person.  My phone has been ringing off the hook.  I can't answer every call.  I had to lay off Stevan and Ian when I made the decision, and that kills me, but it means that the phone sometimes rings and you get the answering machine.  I apologize, but I am but one person.

Let me write one last thing and I need to write it very carefully.

One thing can fix this situation, and that's money.  I don't have any left, but given a little money, it could certainly be fixed.

I have described my current situation to people on the phone as "out-of-business."  This means that I must sell existing inventory at a loss and sell-off my equipment and when that is done, I must write a resume and try to peddle my fat 52-year-old carcass on the job market.  Are you surprised?  Did you think I just "bailed" because I had a "golden parachute?"  If so, you watch too many movies.

I must day-to-day continue to operate with the understanding that I am going out-of-business, UNLESS AND UNTIL SOME MONEY ACTUALLY SHOWS UP.

I REMAIN COMMITTED TO FIXING YOUR BARRELS.

IT IS NOT COMPLETELY OUT-OF-THE-QUESTION THAT SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WILL DECIDE TO OFFER ME A SUM OF MONEY.  I WOULD CERTAINLY ENTERTAIN SUCH AN OFFER.  I HAVEN'T SUDDENLY LOST MY PASSION FOR 6.8 SPC.

IF I AM OFFERED SOME MONEY, I WOULD TRY TO MAKE IT CONTINGENT ON RECTIFYING THE CURRENT SITUATION OF THOSE FEW CUSTOMERS WHO HAVE BARRELS THAT ARE EXIBITING PRESSURE SIGNS.  IF A BUYER WANTS MY BUSINESS AND MY NAME, I WOULD TRY VERY, VERY HARD TO FIND A SOLUTION FOR EXISTING CUSTOMERS.

BUT JUST REMEMBER, WHEN YOU'RE BROKE, YOU DON'T HAVE MUCH LEVERAGE.

ONE NEVER KNOWS WHAT A DAY MAY BRING.  THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY.

Please feel free at this point to call or write.  I am glad to speak with any and all of you, and I have nothing to hide.  I consider many of you my friends, and you have proven to me that it was mutual in these last couple of days.

My business problems have NOTHING to do with an incorrect specification.  IT HAS EVERYTHING to do with a vendor who did some thing that was OUT-OF SPEC.

Do you understand the difference between these two?

If a car is spec'ed to run at 80 miles an hour with a certain fuel injector, and a supplier puts in the wrong fuel-injector and it only gets 75 miles per hour, would you say that the specification for the car is wrong?  I didn't think so.

I am up to my eyeballs in issues, that's my last post here for a while.

Tim, thank you very much for responding here. Even though I don't own a 6.8 SPC (or a 6.5 Grendel for that matter), I'd still trust you if I were in the market for one. I sincerely wish you the best in your future endeavors, and hope that you can eventually turn all of this around.