Sorry to hear Tim

I test fired each and every upper we built with standard commercial ammo. I have NEVER shipped an upper that exhibited pressure signs. I am stunned and amazed that one poster writes that his upper showed pressure signs with standard commercial ammo. If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) then I was never contacted about it.

Tim,
Thank you for posting publicly to stop the rumor mill, and I realize at this point it may be useless continuing the discourse, but let's keep to the truth. I am the one whose barrel purchased barely 30 days ago will not shoot without overpressure even with commercial loads and I ABSOLUTELY contacted you regarding same. I E-mailed you first. NO response. Next I IM,ed you on the 6.8 forums. Both times I directed you to the forum thread with details and photos of my blown commercial SSA cases. NO response. 3 days ago I reached you by phone, went over all the details and you swore you were sending a UPS call tag and going to make everytjhing right.  JUST 3 DAYS AGO you were still making promises and now it's " stunned and amazed" and "I was never contacted about such a thing" PLEASE! I'm sorry if I'm not a devotee who's been on the Ko-tonics bandwagon for several years, and that I'm not as sympathetic to the backstory as some of the others here. I'm just a paying customer who seems to be out several hundred dollars and I don't apologize for sounding harsh. I probably shouldn't say this out loud even though any of us with these problem barrels should be entitled to a 100% resolution at no cost, I'd likely be inclined to send more money for a fix and not think twice, because I really like and want the product to work. Sadly it appears even that is not a possibility. Are you planning anything in the way of customer refunds at this point?

Order #1549 placed 6/23/08 delivered in early July

Damn - I guess this explains why I haven't heard back on a question I had, and an order I wanted to make for a BCG.

Tim, sorry to hear about the troubles, and your attempts to rectify the situation are admirable.  There are a LOT of people here who want to see you succeed and wish to help you out - is there a way we can help?  What sort of $$ are we talking about here?  I'd rather donate some money to help out a fellow gun owner/maker than watch more of my cash get pissed away on useless crap.

tag

Earlier this year I bought a Kotonics 6.8 mm upper.  So far, I have only fired standard cartridges.  If I can't fire combat loads, well, I will just fire standard loads.

It is still a great upper.  

Shotgun1 (and others),

I talked to Tim today at lunch. I realize that you and a few others stand to lose several hundred dollars and I truly feel your pain. However, Tim is losing his livelihood, his business. and, most importantly, his dream and, in all honesty, it is not directly his fault. Yes, he could have been more careful with contracts and stuff, but he got screwed and that is landing on you. I'm really sorry and I understand that you're mad. I would be, too. But there is a bigger picture here and that also deserves sympathy. Simply put, Tim is a good guy. But if you don't have the cash to make things right (my words, not his), there is nothing to do but say 'I'm sorry'. I'm always an "early adopter' and there are risks associated with that. There are risks associated with buying from a small company like Ko-Tonics instead  of Armalite (wondering why the ACR is taking so long?, Tim knows), and you should understand that sometimes the cool factor will win out and sometimes you will lose your $800 invesrtment.

Having said that, we are talking about (in almost every case except a very few like Shotgun1) a problem shooting SSA combat rounds. Almost no commercially available 6.8 will reliably shoot these loads. 6.8 is a wonderful round on the verge of exploding into the mainstream! Live it and love it! We are on the cusp of something cool and Tim had a LOT to do with that! In fact, 68forums had a LOT to do with that. All I'm asking is that we keep some balance here...

One more thing, I've had a very bad 3 years financially, so I can't do much, but the amount needed to stay solvent (in my opinion) is not overwhelming and the upside is huge. I do not represent Tim nor do I have inside knowledge, nor am I soliciting. I'm just saying some PMs from you regulars might go a long way.

Sorry, I know I'm probably out of line,

Kerry (the other Kerry)

Quoted: Shotgun1 (and others), I talked to Tim today at lunch. I realize that you and a few others stand to lose several hundred dollars and I truly feel your pain. However, Tim is losing his livelihood, his business. and, most importantly, his dream and, in all honesty, it is not directly his fault. Yes, he could have been more careful with contracts and stuff, but he got screwed and that is landing on you. I'm really sorry and I understand that you're mad. I would be, too. But there is a bigger picture here and that also deserves sympathy. Simply put, Tim is a good guy. But if you don't have the cash to make things right (my words, not his), there is nothing to do but say 'I'm sorry'. I'm always an "early adopter' and there are risks associated with that. There are risks associated with buying from a small company like Ko-Tonics instead  of Armalite (wondering why the ACR is taking so long?, Tim knows), and you should understand that sometimes the cool factor will win out and sometimes you will lose your $800 invesrtment. Having said that, we are talking about (in almost every case except a very few like Shotgun1) a problem shooting SSA combat rounds. Almost no commercially available 6.8 will reliably shoot these loads. 6.8 is a wonderful round on the verge of exploding into the mainstream! Live it and love it! We are on the cusp of something cool and Tim had a LOT to do with that! In fact, 68forums had a LOT to do with that. All I'm asking is that we keep some balance here... One more thing, I've had a very bad 3 years financially, so I can't do much, but the amount needed to stay solvent (in my opinion) is not overwhelming and the upside is huge. I do not represent Tim nor do I have inside knowledge, nor am I soliciting. I'm just saying some PMs from you regulars might go a long way. Sorry, I know I'm probably out of line, Kerry (the other Kerry)

Hard to swallow Kerry. I'm a "good guy" too. How about you pony up about $300 to me just for the barrel and attachments, I'll keep the rest of the $900 upper. I'm not going to pay you back or anything. I'm just going to take your money cause I'm a "good guy" who like everybody else has had my problems in life. So I'm just going to take your money and please remember to be grateful when I reach in your pocket. Now you feel my pain.

I also talked to Tim at lunch. 3 days ago. I heard the same story. I also heard "don't worry" you're covered. So... blowing smoke up my butt on Monday but honest, sincere buddy of yours at lunch on Thursday. Your right, you may be a little out of line.

ETA: Sorry I might not be as fumed if;

A. my barrel was at least useable like most of the others

and

B. Tim was not making false statements about the issue.

At work here, so can't email, but has anyone emailed ARspecialists to see if he could swap out the kotonics barrels in the bad uppers?  I mean, sure it's going to cost you, but at least it isn't a total waste.  Just curious.

Quoted: I used to get cranky about AA's deathgrip on the Grendel, but as I watch the 6.8 drama unfold I'm starting to think their was some logic in his madness.

Yep, the whole 3 different specs, different twists, grooves finally made me sell my 6.8 and I went back to the 6.5.  Glad I didn't follow all the 6.8 fanbois devotion to KT on this one.  

Quoted: Quoted: I used to get cranky about AA's deathgrip on the Grendel, but as I watch the 6.8 drama unfold I'm starting to think their was some logic in his madness. Yep, the whole 3 different specs, different twists, grooves finally made me sell my 6.8 and I went back to the 6.5.  Glad I didn't follow all the 6.8 fanbois devotion to KT on this one.

kentucky_smith, mudbug, et al.. enjoy your grendel, it is a great round for the ar like the 6.8 is. follow whatever crowd you choose.

however the whole 6.8 world is not going to collapse because of a few barrels being out of specification.  there's still plenty of 6.8 action in the market. every major ar manufacturer makes a 6.8. the ammunition companies are on board for the 6.8 also. several barrel manufacturers and ar manufacturers are moving towards the specifications that ko-tonics/cardinal armory and silver state armory proved viable.

there are barrel tests going on this week that are mentioned in another ar15.com variants posting that will help validate the performance of the 6.8 in different barrel twists and rifling types.

just because you chose to go grendel, and there are some cardinal armory barrels out of spec, doesn't mean the 6.8 is going anywhere. nice try though.

Quoted: There is NO NEED to turn this into a my round is better then your round, debate, lets not go there.

Actually I didn't do any such thing. I just said that having watched the mess that surrounds the 6.8 I see some value in Bill's plan and his opinion that getting a SAAMI cert doesn't guarantee there won't be problems.

That is an entirely different subject that a "My cartridge is better than yours" debate. It's more about the process of commercializing a wildcat.

Quoted: [just because you chose to go grendel, and there are some cardinal armory barrels out of spec, doesn't mean the 6.8 is going anywhere. nice try though.

Uhm, I didn't say anything like that, not even close.

Mudbug,

I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just asking you to drop it so as not to cause the mods to take action. I, and some other members have a financial stake in seeing that this thread stays open and on topic. Just asking a favor.

His comments were more aimed at the two that were posted above him because the "my cartridge is better than yours" shit storm that was starting to brew again.  

I just got my upper so, I too am very interested how all this will pan out.

You did create an llc for the company, right?

I am a bit confused.  If the company that chromed the barrels did not perform to specifications, then they should not be eligible for any compensation for their product.  Moreover, they are liable for any and all damages. So either Cardinal Arms wrote a poor contract with the chrome plater or there is more to the story than what is being told.


320pf.

Quoted: I am a bit confused.  If the company that chromed the barrels did not perform to specifications, then they should not be eligible for any compensation for their product.  Moreover, they are liable for any and all damages. So either Cardinal Arms wrote a poor contract with the chrome plater or there is more to the story than what is being told. 320pf.

somewhere in this mess I recall someone saying Tim mentioned he did not have a contract with the chromer

Quoted: somewhere in this mess I recall someone saying Tim mentioned he did not have a contract with the chromer

A contract is one thing, money for a lawyer is another. Having been through that I can assure you it is not the option to pursue here.




You guys are each out one barrel. that's all, period.

I would love to see Tim come back from this.

Here are a couple points. Tim could get a solution lined up with pricing and contact, and everyone pay to get their own barrel fixed.  

To understand my point remember the Doctor that were doing Silicone breast implants charged a fortune to put them in.  When it came out that it was a bad thing those Doctors were not ran out of business, hell, they charged just as much to take them back out.

I see no reason Tim should go away.  CMMG did not go away with the fiasco of the Mid-length Giffman group buy.

I would love to see Tim come back from this. Here are a couple points. Tim could get a solution lined up with pricing and contact, and everyone pay to get their own barrel fixed.

I may be his loudest and toughest critic right now, but I believe in the product and God help me for even thinking it, even as pissed as I am I might consider that as a reasonable solution.

The CMMG fiasco wasn't this bad.  CMMG has stated that the barrels are still under warranty.


2 have been returned for repair.  

Quoted: The CMMG fiasco wasn't this bad.  CMMG has stated that the barrels are still under warranty. 2 have been returned for repair.

That is what they say and may be true. But they didn't fix the location of the gas port on any of them.   So folks had to deal with it.  In the case of these 6.8 barrels there are two solutions low pressure loads, or custom work.  My point is CMMG survived a fiasco that PO'ed a lot of people Tim can too

Would be nice to get a list of who has got bad barrels and who has ok barrels without having to shoot them to find out....

Is there a 'date' cutoff?

If I were Tim  I would post a warning on the website with the recommended course of action, and e-mail everyone you can, this is for thier safety as well as to get them updated.

Negotiate with the chrome company for some $ assistance for those who send them in. (probably get nowhere, but try)  Then move on with new barrels for sale that are done right..  If folks want to contact the BBB, who cares? Are folks going to come there for small claims court? OK if any do,  go to court and pay when you loose.  It is a tough break, but don't be a wussie and abandon ship because you broke a mast in a storm.

Shotgun1,
You make points that cannot be argued. I really do feel your pain as much as I can without being out $300+ of my own money. I was only trying to point out that there is a second tragedy here, and it is Tim and Cardinal Armory.

You are right, my barrel (from 11/07) appears to be fine, so I cannot truly understand your circumstance. You have my sympathy, but so does Tim.

Sorry if I came across as attacking you, because you are clearly a victim. My only question is: 'A victim of who?' Tim may have been naive in his contractual dealings (I don't know), but he didn't directly make the chroming error (apparently).

It may be cold comfort. but i know he feels bad. In fact, he may lose everything. Everything! Over combat loads! In most cases, yours being an exception, all other rounds are FINE. I know it doesn't help you and I'm really, really sorry, but I don't believe any of the other manufacturers are dealing with this because they can't shoot combat loads, period -- under any circumstances. I understand you were assured they wold work and it has been a colossal F up and you aren't the only one affected, but the whole situation is very. very sad.

Do me one favor, please? I really feel bad for you and I understand your righteous anger at the circumstances, but spare a thought for Tim. Yes, i know, he could've , he should've, better contracts and lawyers were required, but it didn't work out that way. I'll tell you this, I'm not a rich man, but if someone will start a fund on 68forums.com to help Tim or his customers, I guarantee you I will donate.I have that much confidence in Tim's integrity.

Best wishes,

Kerry

Quoted: I'll tell you this, I'm not a rich man, but if someone will start a fund on 68forums.com to help Tim or his customers, I guarantee you I will donate.I have that much confidence in Tim's integrity. Kerry

Actually I was coming back with a similar thought. Folks chipped in to help Cav arms when things were bad and out of their control....



eta: Of course I say this assuming Tim has clean hands in this all.

Hopefully Tim still has the Cerakoting business up as I have more than a few weapons I'd iike for starters..

Also he is in close proximity to Ion Bond and i have a few items I wouldn't mind also gettin' IB's...

There is no reason to give up the ship here...

Tim has pretty much been one of the main go to guys on the 6.8 spc...that hasn't changed...

imo

Cardinal Armory is selling those barrels now at a discounted price.  Hopefully Tim can find one to replace Shotgun1's useless barrel.  Since he appears to have barrels, has anyone contacted him for a swap where you send him the upper and it can be test fired after repair?  

For myself, I have one of his recent 18" barrels.  Haven't shot it yet.  As long as it can shoot standard loads, I'm fine with that.  I'm only shooting paper and if I were going to use it for hunting, I'd be using standard loads anyway.  Besides, anything that will drop a deer will drop a human so combat loads are not that appealing to me if it will cost me more or is hard to get.

If you've any doubt about the interior dimensions of your bore, I highly suggest Beartooth's manual, and their dead soft sinkers for slugs.

Its not a difficult process.

beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

I've often wondered about what troubles the variation in bore/groove diameter that is often seen in Shaw/Wilson barrels would cause those barrels intended to be plated.

I wonder if they use a different rifling button for the barrels that are intended to be plated, of if they're all (at least the ones I've seen) oversized anyway.

Tolerance stackup between the barrel manufacturer and the plater?

It would be interesting to know how many good barrels and how many barrels with bad chromed chambers are out in the public.  Does anyone know how to post a survey, maybe at the top of this thread?  I will start with mine:

GOOD BBL.  Purchased on 6/18/2008

ETA: I wonder how many bad chrome lined 5.56 barrels have been shipped over the years from various manufacturers?  Probably thousands, but those larger companies have the resources to replace them, where as Tim does not.

MadDog

Quoted: It would be interesting to know how many good barrels and how many barrels with bad chromed chambers are out in the public.  Does anyone know how to post a survey, maybe at the top of this thread?  I will start with mine: GOOD BBL.  Purchased on 6/18/2008 ETA: I wonder how many bad chrome lined 5.56 barrels have been shipped over the years from various manufacturers?  Probably thousands, but those larger companies have the resources to replace them, where as Tim does not. MadDog

See now that goes to show how piss poor a job that chromer was really doing. unless Tim had a lot of mixed batch inventory, the chromer wasn't even consistant enough to make bad batches. Looks like he might have been screwing it up barrel to barrel. My barrel was ordered 6/23/08 BAD. Yours 6/18/08 GOOD.

In the interest of not bashing Tim every second of my life, and in the interest of helping him solve my (and others) issues if at all possible, he had mentioned that if it was excess chrome in just the chamber he was set up to ream and fix. With that in mind, I made a half assed amatuer attempt at bore slugging this AM. Took a .50cal. Mzl loading ball, cylindered it down to about .30cal, dropped it in the chamber with a patch behind it, tapped it hard with a rod til it started. After it "swaged" to size it practically dropped through the bore. Does that sound like I did it about right? Slug came out nicely marked and measures a pretty consistant .2765 with my mic and .269 in the groove with my dial calipers. I'm guessing that's tight for what should be a .277/.270 but is it too tight or might I just have a chamber problem yet?

Quoted: Quoted: It would be interesting to know how many good barrels and how many barrels with bad chromed chambers are out in the public.  Does anyone know how to post a survey, maybe at the top of this thread?  I will start with mine: GOOD BBL.  Purchased on 6/18/2008 ETA: I wonder how many bad chrome lined 5.56 barrels have been shipped over the years from various manufacturers?  Probably thousands, but those larger companies have the resources to replace them, where as Tim does not. MadDog See now that goes to show how piss poor a job that chromer was really doing. unless Tim had a lot of mixed batch inventory, the chromer wasn't even consistant enough to make bad batches. Looks like he might have been screwing it up barrel to barrel. My barrel was ordered 6/23/08 BAD. Yours 6/18/08 GOOD. In the interest of not bashing Tim every second of my life, and in the interest of helping him solve my (and others) issues if at all possible, he had mentioned that if it was excess chrome in just the chamber he was set up to ream and fix. With that in mind, I made a half assed amatuer attempt at bore slugging this AM. Took a .50cal. Mzl loading ball, cylindered it down to about .30cal, dropped it in the chamber with a patch behind it, tapped it hard with a rod til it started. After it "swaged" to size it practically dropped through the bore. Does that sound like I did it about right? Slug came out nicely marked and measures a pretty consistant .276 up and down its length with my dial calipers. I'm guessing that's tight for what should be a .277 but is it too tight or might I just have a chamber problem yet?

I am ignorant about "cylindered it down"  How is that done?  I have a new lightweight grunt to check.

Thanks

I am ignorant about "cylindered it down" How is that done? I have a new lightweight grunt to check. Thanks

Squished it in a vise and rolled it between 2 pieces of steel until it went from a 50cal ball to a 30cal cylinder. Could have also just used a #10 fishing sinker if I had one.

If I may offer a suggestion.  I have no dog in this fight.

We need a sticky here to try and isolate any patterns in the defective barrels and exchange information pertaining to the bad barrels.

Have the owners slug the bores.  Post the diameter of the slug and when the barrel was purchased.  A pic of some fired cases from the hot SSA ammo if you have it.

That should help in establishing a pattern of when the issue started and how widespread the problem is.
It may be a big problem, or not.  Documenting the problem would shed some light on how widespread the defect is.

The mods could keep the thread on topic for information gathering and keep the shitstorm elsewhere.



ZM

Tri-C:

Why do you feel the need to check your barrel?  Have you shot yours?  I didn't check anything, I just purchased commercial ammo including SSA Combat Loadings and shot it all through my lightweight 16" KT barrel.  After 300 rounds it still runs like a top.  I am not going to bother to check anything.  If I were to bother to mic the chromed barrels on all of my 5.56 AR's I might find some out of spec but they all function perfectly.

MadDog

Quoted: Tri-C: Why do you feel the need to check your barrel?  Have you shot yours?  I didn't check anything, I just purchased commercial ammo including SSA Combat Loadings and shot it all through my lightweight 16" KT barrel.  After 300 rounds it still runs like a top.  I am not going to bother to check anything.  If I were to bother to mic the chromed barrels on all of my 5.56 AR's I might find some out of spec but they all function perfectly. MadDog

Not everyone would accept out of spec (in a dangerous sense like these "could" be) and operate their weapon as normal.  I know I would not...

Quoted: Tri-C: Why do you feel the need to check your barrel?  Have you shot yours?  I didn't check anything, I just purchased commercial ammo including SSA Combat Loadings and shot it all through my lightweight 16" KT barrel.  After 300 rounds it still runs like a top.  I am not going to bother to check anything.  If I were to bother to mic the chromed barrels on all of my 5.56 AR's I might find some out of spec but they all function perfectly. MadDog

You apparently have one of the good barrels, for if you didn't, it'd show up fast when you tried the high pressure loads. Mine did on the very first rounds fired. You should be good to go from what I've seen.

  I've e-mailed Tim and asked him to consider my cancelled order "open".
It appears that Tim could use an infusion of capital... as in from a person or entity willing to invest. Tim enjoys a great reputation and in my humble opinion that equals sales potential.
  If any of you are willing to do business with Tim, post here. Show you will support his company in the future. You never know who lurks and may come to the rescue...

Quoted: Tri-C: Why do you feel the need to check your barrel?  Have you shot yours?  I didn't check anything, I just purchased commercial ammo including SSA Combat Loadings and shot it all through my lightweight 16" KT barrel.  After 300 rounds it still runs like a top.  I am not going to bother to check anything.  If I were to bother to mic the chromed barrels on all of my 5.56 AR's I might find some out of spec but they all function perfectly. MadDog

It is an interesting procedure that I have never done.  Try to learn something new every day.  I've shot less than 30 rounds through my new upper and was plagued with problems from a defective C prod mag and a 3lb. Bill Springfield trigger apparently not stout enough for SSA prohunter.  I'm curious if this chrome problem may have contributed to any of my woes.  All my brass that actually fired looks normal.  

ETA:  thanks for the answer Shotgun.  I'm going to do for grins on a worn out 556 barrel that I've replaced.  Rifling is almost gone.  

Are the bad barrels all of one model?  For example, all lightweights, all SPR's, all 16", all 18", etc or are they across the board.

Anyone know the type of $ needed from an investor?

I am willing to support.  Thats why I have not cancelled my order for an 18" barrel.  Which I ordered before I knew about the bore issues.  I am hoping I get lucky.  If not, I am hoping that things turn around for Tim.  I talked to him today.  He said if there was an investor interested, this could all be fixed.

On that note.  I am going to buy a box of Combat loads.  I should know on the first shot if the bore is under sized.  If it is, then I will just reload barnes bullets (because they are a bit smaller in diameter and would fare pretty well out of this tighter bore) and get as much out of it as I can.  I have no interest in shooting the hottest loads I can get.  My interest was being able to taylor loads for my 6.8 that got the most velocities with the best groups.  Hopefully I can acheive that with standard loads and possibly a little more out of reloads.   Seriously though, we are only talking around 150fps.

Here’s some reloading things one could try if you have one of these barrels and you reload… following this annoying disclaimer: the following are suggestions that result from my personal experience. I know what I’m doing and I worked this up with one of  MY barrels (an early, 16 inch, 1:9.5 twist, 6 groove, CL, overly tight, barrel). If you attempt these suggestions, you should know what you’re doing and should proceed with caution.

Also, I would be very skeptical of trying this with a barrel that is showing signs even with the anemic factory loads. I think someone mentioned they were popping primers with the snail loads - that may be a barrel beyond help from these suggestions. I'd have to see it personally to know if I would proceed or not. Regardless, here's some food for thought for others that seem okay with the snail loads but pressure-out on anything above (i.e. "combat" loads).

1. Take the 6.8spc neck-sizing button and spindle out of your full length die. Replace the spindle/button with a .223 one (allows the primer to be knocked out on a fired case, but doesn’t push the neck back out on extraction). Or you could knock the primer out with a punch or de-capping die if you have either. Not only does this create a tight neck and bullet seat, but it also slightly swages the bullet down in diameter as its seated.

2. Resize the case normally with the FL die and with the .223 button/spindle or without any button/spindle at all. Trim to length (be advised your standard 6.8/.270 trimmer pilots won’t fit because the neck on the case is very tight now – I turned a pilot down personally).

3. Chamfer case mouth. Make sure there is a good inside chamfer. The neck will be real tight and you want to swage the bullet, not cut into it.

4. Prime case. I have had the best luck with large primer cases using magnum or mil-spec primers and the powder below in my barrel. In this case with THESE barrels, I would probably start with a small primer case and std primer (NON-mag/mil-spec) and see what pressures do. If things looked okay I’d load a few with small-rifle magnum primers with the same charge and see how pressures looked. If things looked okay still I’d then use a large primer case with a std large rifle (NON-mag/mil-spec) with the same charge. If things still looked okay, I try the same charge/case with a large rifle mag primer. If things still looked okay, I’d then begin to bump the charge up in .5gr increments and observe for pressures.

5. Insert powder. I have had great success with AA2520 and the barrel mentioned above (I get max safe loads of 2600fps with 115gr bullets with the barrel mentioned above). I personally would use the primer approach mentioned above and start with 28gr of AA2520… YMMV. The point is that it will require a slower than “normal” 6.8 powder – the greater friction of the tight bore will build too much pressure, too early, with the “normal” 6.8 powders. I haven’t seen or used one of these recent barrels though so I don’t know how they would specifically react – MINE IS DIFFERENT. In any event, I personally would start with AA2520 and progress to a slower powder if needed – next would be Varget likely.

6. Seat bullet as per normal. Be advised, they will seat hard because the neck dia is much tighter than usual. Attempt to start bullet with moderate pressure on the press lever. If it doesn’t go, let off a little on the lever, rotate the case roughly 180 degrees and try again. It will always go for me on the second attempt when it happens (I also have good dies though) which is maybe 1 in 10 rounds. Boatail bullets usually go very well on the first pass.

7. Once you have a load, observe ejection patterns. The gas pressure at the port may be higher than what the port was drilled for. If the ejected case comes forward of 3 o’clock (more likely), add carrier and/or buffer weight and/or use a +10% recoil spring. If it comes aft of 3 o’clock, lighten buffer and/or use a reduced power spring.

This may seem like a lot of extra reloading effort, but it sounds harder than it is. It has worked very well for me and the barrel I mentioned above. Again, please use caution if you attempt this.

Lastly, sorry to hear about how things have developed, Tim. I wish you well. You have done a lot for the 6.8 and seem to be one of the good guys.
-w

I've been looking to get into the 6.8/6.5 game and basically considered Tim as my only source for 6.8 parts if I went that route.  I would still buy them, since my other options (for price) would leave me with a M1S barrel or something similar.

I don't know how chrome barrels would react, but what would shooting coarse, grit-embedded bullets through the barrel accomplish?  Would it remove enough material or is the chrome too hard?

I know a lot of mall ninjas are hard up for CL barrels, but its not really needed for most users and this whole problem could have been avoided with a straight stainless or chrome-moly barrel.  I know Tim's catering to a crowd that wants to use them in adverse conditions as well as the home user, but it ended up like having the perfect chocolate gourmet cake and then someone put a cheap icing on top.  It would have been fine by itself, but the topping just ruined the whole thing.

.........hindsight being what it is:  one of the things that set Kotonics barrels above the rest was its ability to handle high pressure combat loads. Knowing that, why in the world did Cardinal not use at a minimum combat loads for proof testing? Tim stated that each barrel was test fired with commercial loads before shipping, thus indicating no pressure problems. Had he used the combat loads to test ( I always thought proof loads used were above stated maximums to insure a margin of safety)  he would have caught this chrome supplier issue long before his market was saturated with barrels that now may or may not be in spec., and avoided an otherwise great   business being on the brink of bankruptsy. Could the commercial load proof testing have been a cost cutting measure for a low margin business trying to get ahead? And if so, damn what a cost it has resulted in. As to having no written  and specific contract with his chrome supplier, that's business 101 folks.
No, I'm not a brick thrower. I got interested in the 6.8 due to the efforts of folks like Tim. I Almost bought a Kotonics barrel. But in the end I bought a Bushy barrel (came with M4 cuts by the way) and built my own hunting carbine from various parts I had on hand. I'm glad I did. No it doesn't shoot sub-moa loads on steriods, but it will shoot moa on a good day and mo-deer any day. I reload and have no interest in pushing the limits on velocity.
I wish Tim all the best and hope it works out for him. As to customers stuck with $300 junk barrels.......suck it up and move on. I wish I could re-coup every $$$ mistake the deck has delt me. Man have I got  boxes full of defunct gun and archery shit,  all that seemed like a good idea at the time.
If there is demand, and Cardinal can not recover, someone else will see this as an opportunity.

Quoted: Quoted: I am a bit confused.  If the company that chromed the barrels did not perform to specifications, then they should not be eligible for any compensation for their product.  Moreover, they are liable for any and all damages. So either Cardinal Arms wrote a poor contract with the chrome plater or there is more to the story than what is being told. 320pf. There is no more to be told, because there is no contract.  Call Superior Plating yourself and ask if a contract is needed to have chrome plating done on barrels. There was nothing but profuse verbal assurances that "we do this for Colt and Bushmaster, so we can do it for you, no problem." I have already spoken with two lawyers about it, and with no written guarantee, there is no recourse in court.  Everything they offered to me was verbal assurances.

Wouldn't a verbal contract be enough?  Well i guess not but regardless they screwed it up, it would be nice to see them stand behind their product.

Tim, best of luck.  There are some states that allow a verbal contract in court
That said, slugged mine: .2715 in the grooves and .2760 in the bore................in the process of ordering Combat loads to see, but this one should be OK.