I looking to buy either a 10.3" DD upper w/ RIS II MK18 handguards or a 11.5" BCM upper w/ RIS II MK18 handguards. I don't understand why there is such a big deifference in price. I can get the DD upper from SmartGunner for $600 and the BCM upper is $900.

Is there that big difference in quality? Which would you get and why?

Basically, SmartGunner has good deals. I would get the DD 10.3" because it is cheaper, the Mk18 RIS II was made for that barrel length, and I like DD barrels. The DD upper receiver doesn't have a dry teflon coating on the inside and if the BCM does then that is about the only thing it has on the DD. I don't like how both have their logos on the upper receiver and bolt carrier. The only thing to consider is what kind of gas block they come with. I would prefer the DD pinned gas block or a pinned Mk12 gas block.
Dustin

I will check, but I don't think the BCM uppers are coated. Either way, I'm going to be using a Fail Zero Bolt/Bolt Carrier.

Id go with the DD. Same quality for a cheaper price, win win.

if you are going that route with an SBR just go whole hog and get the Fail Zero stripped upper from them as well.. then build from parts the rest.

thats what i would do... hell thats what i DID..

ill never buy anything else... the Fail Zero stuff is just too good.

This. Smartgunner has some seriously amazing deals right now. If I had a little extra cash I'd be buying one up myself.



 

WOW 6 replies and there is no "Go BCM, nothing else even comes close" yet.

Color me impressed.

Like others have said.  Both very good quality.  Smartgunner just happens to be having a really good sale atm.  You'd be just as happy with either one.  Actually you'd probably be happier with the DD since you'd save $300 which gets you 1k of plinking ammo.

Post up some pics when you get her built.  We all love gun porn.  

Or over half-way to an Aimpoint T-1 to go with the rifle...

Looking around Id have to say DD has the best deals going right now when it comes to rifles and complete uppers followed by BCM. No matter where you shop at. Personally Id get both.

I ordered a 12.5" BCM upper. It should be delivered today. I probably would not have ordered it, if I knew about the Smartgunner deal. I will be suppressing this upper. I don't think I will suppressing the other upper.

I don't know if I want a T-1. I was thinking about a Comp M4s.

Both are top quality uppers. I was gonna go BCM for my pencil barrel build but they were out of stock. Then someone pointed me to smartgunner and I couldn't say no to that! It's almost like getting a $300 RIS for free... CHF barrel too so I can be like all the cool kids. If you got the cash, jump on the deal asap. I heard a rumor that prices may increase beginning next year for the DD builds, but don't quote me on it.

Be advised, there is a pretty long wait for smartgunner right now. Some people have had to wait 3-4 weeks for their upper to ship.

You'll be happy with the Comp M4s.  That is what I am currently running.  It is an awesome sight. If you get the Comp M4s, and you get it from LaRue, it comes with the LaRue mount.  Awesome mount.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=226

The T-1 will  be my next purchase, however.  It will go on my LMT or DD.  Can't decide which at the moment, but leaning toward the LMT.

I ended up ordering a DD 10.3" upper w/ 10" DD Lite Rail. This will serve my needs and Tommy has it in stock.

Do you guys know if the uppers from smartgunner have the M4 feed ramps. It didnt say anything about it when I was on their website. I am going to do a MK18Mod1 clone and this would be  a great start for me.

Daniel Defense uppers have M4 ramps.
Dustin

Anyone have one of the DD 12.5 or similar SBR's.  I've been thinking of getting one, but have no clue what kind of groups they are getting out of it.  Not trying to jack the thread by the way.

In today's edition of the "DD vs BCM" thread of the week, I'll again side with BCM.  The story of Pat Rogers' "Filthy 14" BCM middy with 41,000+ rounds down the pipe makes an impression.  My five BCM's have run like champs with 1000's of rounds through the pipes.  Mind you, I don't abuse my rifles the way a T&E person does, but my experiences have led to a total confidence in all of my BCM setups.  The smartgunner deal is certainly nothing to sneeze at, but for the extra $200-$300, I'd rather buy exactly what I want instead of the deal of the day.  

If push comes to shove, I want a BCM middy in my hands.  YMMV.

I would love to hear what makes the BCM upper $200 to $300 better than the DD upper other than barrel length.
Dustin

That was my point for starting this thread. I thought maybe I was missing something.

I have read the Pat Rogers story and I would be impressed if  he ran a DD rifle or another manufactures rifle the same way and it didn't hold up. Who's to say that a Colt, Bushmaster, Stag or etc will not do the same thing? I don't run any of my guns that hard, but they have never let me down either.

I run a BCM upper on one of my guns, and I really like it.  I do not have a DD upper (although I do run their handguards).  I think you will find that the specs on the uppers will be very similar, thus is would be hard for me to go with the BCM over the DD for that kind of price difference.  The prices they are offering on those DD uppers are very attractive.  Now I need to put it out of my head before I end up buying one.

I own both and just having recently receive a DD upper from smartgunner I would say get the DD.

He just told you, "because Pat Rogers uses it." Sorta like how anything Costa or Haley touches in a Magpul Dynamics video immediately has a 3-month waiting list.

I jest... he also probably just wants to use what he is comfortable with and has lots of personal experience with to prove that *yes it works* to himself. Nuthin wrong with that! Though, after 5 rifles from the same place I'd rather give some other manufacturer a go just to shake things up a bit personally.

As for my choice, I actually don't have much personal experience with BCM or DD rifles but I *do* have lots of experience with other DD products. I know firsthand that their rail systems are pretty much the best you can buy. The attention to detail and quality of machining is second to none on those rails and there is no reason at all for me to think their rifles will be any different. Both BCM and DD rank at the top of the fabled AR chart too.

When the "deal of the day" is DD...  it is an entirely different story.

I don't own a DD or a BCM, so I am not saying either is better. Because I honestly don't know. My problem is people keep mentioning Pat Rogers test of the BCM like they saw it first hand. Call me sceptical, but I don't believe anything I didn't see in person. Any type of test can be doctored. I'm not saying that Pat did......but common sense tells me not to believe everything I hear, then talk about it as if it were fact

Everything about this rifle was well documented and witnessed. I own BCM rifles and I DO BELIEVE IT. Nothing against Daniel Defense rifles, they may well be fine weapons also- but I believe Pat Rogers and these well documented claims. YMMV

Well, I saw the SmartGunner deal the other day, and I couldn't help but to order a stripped (lightweight) DD carbine upper from them. I already have a BCM middy that I really like, so I figured I'd give DD a go. I bet they are six of one/half a dozen of the other. At least I hope so!

I don't in any way doubt Pat Rogers' tale of "Filthy 14". No wonder BCM has it linked on their website - what a testimonial!

But I suspect that a Daniel Defense AR could do pretty much the same thing.
Maybe Larry Vickers should give it a go?

Oh, BTW I also ordered a DD upper from Smartgunner.com.

BCM must be good, otherwhise they wouldn't have such a huge following. I will own one, one day. But till then, I have yet to see any documentation that couldn't have been "fudged". I wasn't saying it didn't happen, or that BCM couldn't do it. This is the interweb after all, and peoples opinion quickly become confused with fact. The point I was making is this....you own BCM rifles, tell us of your experience of them, not refer to some test that a gun guy did, who I and most of us have never met.

Read the article.  Read the accounts.  You say "people keep mentioning....."  Research the facts for yourself before making a post like this.

I have a BCM and my next one will be a Daniel Defense , I don't know who is better, but I want to get another one so I figured I'd go with a Daniel Defense this time.

I have read the article. I also stated these tests can be fudged. If you read my posts a little better you will see I'm not bashing BCM or Pat's test. I am sure BCM makes an excellent product. I'm am however a sceptic and as such chose to no believe everything I read or every test someone does. I am more inclined to believe other peoples FIRST HAND experiences. The OP clearly asked is there any big difference in quality. The answer to that is "NO" imo. Trying to sway someones opinion based on someone else's experience other then your own seems a little foolish to me. For instance a personal friend of mine read a review on a certain pistol. Said review praised said pistol. My friend went out and bought one of these pistols, based on what he read. So far he has had nothing but problems with it. Now if I wanted that pistol, based on the magazine review I would buy it. Based on what I have watched my friend go through next to me at the range, I would not touch one.

+1 plus way better customer service over BCM since BCM doesnt answer the phone EVER when you call them with a issue and DD does.

Flame away.....I'm getting out the popcorn.

I received my new Daniel Defense M4V2 today and it is the best finsihed AR I have ever owned [Colt, Bushmaster, Rock River, LMT]. I will not be able to shoot it for a couple months but based on my initial inspection it should be fine. I could not find a flaw on it anywhere.

I put an Aimpoint T-1 in a Daniel Defense mount on it and it is exactly what I was looking for. I like that it comes already set up with the rail, ladder covers, stock & H buffer I like and with a great looking BUIS. I have built several AR's and owned several factory built ones, up to this point the LMT's were my favorite, I think the DD tops them and at a great price if you shop around. I like it well enough I am thinking about buying a second one before I have even shot this one.

I have to be honest...  I have gotten good customer service from both BCM and DD.

There is certainly a confidence that builds after using the BCM rilfes/components over time.   I do own some other AR's too (LMT and Noveske) and have shot Colts, DPMS's, Bushy's and RRA's, but the BCM's are what I'm buying now.  Does that mean the other stuff out there stinks?  Of course not!  I enjoy shooting all kinds of different rifles.  My preference right now just happens to be for the BCM Middy's in particular.  "B Co" offers the exact configurations I'm looking for, products are packaged well, and delivery has always been fast.  When items do appear out of stock, you can simply ask Paul via a thread in the Bravo industry forum for an estimated in stock date...same goes for the new configurations being brought to market.   In my experiences with Bravo, Paul has done an outstanding job putting his customer's interests first and delivering such a high level of quality and service.  It's pretty impressive to see such a relatively small company going toe to toe with huge, established manufacturers like Colt and LMT and exceeding expectations.

What makes a BCM better than the DD smartgunner deal?  That's up to each individual to decide and it's what makes the many "DD vs BCM" threads a lesson in tail chasing.  Why choose a BCM right now?  BCM offers more upper configurations to choose from.  BCM can deliver in stock items in days and not the 3-4 weeks being quoted by arfcomers who bought one.  Are BCM and DD the same quality?  Maybe.  Without specific knowledge of their manufacturing processes, I'm not in a position to break this down.  If there are any published T&E reports like Pat Rogers' "Filthy 14" account (whose integrity I certainly don't question), I'd love to see them.  Actually, I think most arfcomers would be interested in that.

Anyone jumping on the DD deal at smartgunner is likely getting a top notch upper in return and saving some money.  It sure seems like a good deal.  Personally, I love the DD rails and also use some of their mounts.  With all of these DD uppers headed to arfcomers now, we'll likely see plenty of feedback on their performance and I'm very anxious to see how they do.  In the meantime, I still think it's premature to call these two identical without some verified accounts.

(edited for clarity)

I'm not trying to discredit Pat Roger's Filthy 14 because it certainly is impressive, but since when is a test sample of one the end all be all of scientific analysis?  

Yes, there are many people who run BCM guns in carbine courses and in other applications very hard.  But, there are also people that run other guns the same way with no problems.  Just because someone (Pat Rogers) tested this with a BCM gun doesn't mean the same results wouldn't be had with any other gun from any other manufacturer.  You can't point to one particular instance and say "Well BCM is the best because this one particular gun performed very well under harsh conditions."  Who's to say another BCM rifle wouldn't do the same thing or that 'Insert brand x here'  wouldn't do the same thing as well.


It is a one sided test and to sit here and say BCM is top notch above everyone else and point to a test sample of one particular case as the reasoning is just ridiculous.

I'm not a BCM fanboy but regarding their customer service my experience has been A+ with BCM. As soon as I place an order they are in contact letting me know the status and the order always shows up days later. The product is always excellent.

I have not owned a DD upper or rifle but would have no problem taking part in that excellent deal at Smartgunner. If I had the extra cash right now I'd be trying out that DD. JMO

JW you should be an ambassador! I may have ruffled some feathers with my earlier post, you have done a good job smoothing them back down. It is your and everyone elses personal experiences with BCM and the resulting feedback that makes me want one. Not because of Pat Rogers filthy 14 test. He can probably aslo shoot one ragged hole at a moving target a 300 yrds....I cannot

That is fine. I was thinking that you felt quality wise alone the BCM was worth $200-$300 more than the DD. If the identical configuration was offered by both I would certainly pick the cheaper one, even if I had to wait 3-4 weeks. I haven't heard any complaints about smartgunner's or DD's customer service.
As far as the Pat Rogers BCM, why couldn't a DD rifle or other quality rifle do the same thing? If DD gave me free rifles and I had a bunch of free ammo to shoot I would probably attempt the same task.
Dustin

Lol...I'll take that over "fanboy" or "Koolaid drinker" any day of the week!  

There are a very few companies in any industry who have earned my complete respect and Bravo happens to be one of them.  I'm happy to share my experiences and/or reference what others have published.  It's just another puzzle piece for someone to consider, that's all.  Conversations about what is "the best" AR-15 are pointless IMO because there are so many excellent choices available in the civilian market now.  I haven't stopped shooting the other rifles in the safe by any means, but as it stands now the BCM's are my favorites and I'll be buying more of them in various configurations.  It also shouldn't go unnoticed that Bravo Company is a corporate sponsor of the Wounded Warrior Project and I have seen firsthand Paul's sincere commitment to helping our nation's heros.  

As far as DD goes, I don't see any reason not to try a DD upper with such a significant incentive being offered by smartgunner.  Shoot the heck out of it and form your own opinion.  Hopefully, there are some formal evaluations in the works as well whose results can be posted here.

For the guy who questioned the validity of testing and reporting on just one rifle, I completely agree.  However, maybe you're not aware that Pat Rogers acknowledged having 20 or more BCM T&E rifles in use at his classes over time?  Paul from Bravo has credited Pat's feedback with improvements made to the BCM line.  That works for me as I have no desire to fund 20 rifles and hundreds of thousands of rounds to arrive at likely the same conclusions.  Below are some of the posts Mr. Rogers made on arfcom relevant to "Filthy 14" and his ongoing evaluation of BCM rifles.  You can form your own conclusions.

Filthy 14 thread

Paul's introduction of EAG Carbines and acknowledgement of EAG's input

Post by Pat Rogers discussing BCM rifles under evaluation (scroll down mid page)

By the way, I haven't seen any posts that indicate he's ditched his Colts.  The takeaway here for me is that there's room for more than just one manufacturer at the top of the food chain.

Indeed. Colt, BCM, Noveske, KAC... a lot of excellent quality ARs to choose from these days. :) Don't know which is best-best, but you really can't go wrong with any of them.

OK I have one build currently with a Noveske Barrel, one with a Sabre Defense Barrel and One DD barrel.   I bet they will all shoot great.   I am looking into 2 other builds..... and I am thinking of BCM and Rainier for the Barrels..... mixing it up.  There are so many good vendors right now that are giving great product and great customner service that its a win win  either way you go.  I have BCM BCG"S set to go in all 3 of my builds..... The First 2 Lowers were complete and are Armalites.... I am getting a DD lower and a DD LPK to complete the third build.  What I am trying to say is get what you want dont think either will let you down in quality or Customer Service.

About the Pat Rodgers info and the Filthy 14.  He has a unique opportunity to test rifles with lots of rounds and give input.  BCM is lucky to have that input and I believe it will keep the quality up

Thanks for the links JW. BCM, Spikes, Noveske, LMT, DD, Colt and many others have a solid following. I'm guessing because they all make a top notch product, not because they turn out junk! Because someone prefers one brand over another doesn't make someone a fanboy or coolaid drinker

Now that I have the upper I want. It's time to invest in some training.

Too funny... the weekly DD vs. BCM thread. As others have already tried to point out, BCM has gone out of their way to provide information about their strict adherence to the TDP. I have not searched in awhile, but previously, I found myself digging for specs on some DD parts. BCM also has a large following that shoot their firearms A LOT, thus witnessing how their rifles perform. I think what many are trying to say is - it's not that BCM is necessarily better and worth the extra $2-300 because of the specs. They simply prefer them because because they have used them A LOT and know exactly what they are getting. If they bought a DD, they might have exactly the same results, but people tend to stay with what has worked for them in the past.

There have always been individuals out there stating "why pay an extra ___$ for X brand when I could get the same results from Bushmaster. That comparison can be done on paper because the specs are not the same. All of the major components are manufactured different, from the BCG to the barrel. In this case, the specs are very similar, which is why more people don't understand the want for BCM. It's simple - documented experience!

I still remember when everyone said - "why buy Colt for $3-400 more when BCM is the same thing, but cheaper". The answer was simple in that debate as well... documented experience.

BCM has come along way and now they have their own "documented experience".

Would I buy a DD upper/rifle? Sure... I like the CHF barrels and the price. If I was only able to have ONE upper/rifle and had to use it for defense, I would buy BCM. Why? because I have confidence from past experiences.

I have both a DD upper from Smartgunner and a BCM upper. They are both solid bet your life on uppers...but the DD isnt just a better value its a steal

I own DD and BCM products and I must say that both of them are outstanding.  In this case, I'd go after whichever is cheaper.

no longer technical, if it ever was