Hello everyone.  After purchasing my first ar which is a stag arms and loving it, I started researching for my next ar.  I have heard plenty good things about lmt as far as quality and reputation.  So a week ago I started looking for an upper and bcg for my stag lower.  I decided to go with lmt.  Off course I could not find all the parts I needed in order to satisfy my desire for a new ar.  So I decided to get a complete rifle.  Before I go into details I just want to say by no means am I bashing on lmt or putting down it's reputation, reliability and or superiority.  Especially since I have not fired the gun yet, I cant say anything about it's function or accuracy.  However after inspecting the gun tonight after work, to say the least I am disappointed.  I paid I believe $849 for my stag arms model 1.  I found my complete lmt rifle for $1257.95 shipped to my local dealer.  I know most of my concerns are asthetics, but for a $1200 ar and lmt's quality reputation, I expected more.  I expected atleast for it to look as good or better quality than my stag.  Please bare with me as this post is quite long with lots of pictures.  My disappointment is in the workmanship of my bolt carrier, upper receiver and lower receiver.

upper receiver

These two first pictures you can see where the ejection port bevel that meets the door there's two areas where the it isnt black.  It doesnt have finish on those areas...



These pictures shows marks on the upper reciever...



This picture shows a raised area on the upper receiver just in front of forward assist...


lower receiver

These pictures you can see ripples on the right side of the lower receiver...




bolt carrier

These pictures shows the how rough of a finish is on the bolt carrier...









bolt carrier key

These pictures you can see cracks where the key is staked...



castle nut staking

In these pictures you can see the staking job on the castle nut, one is completely off and the other... is it staked properly...



pivot receiver pin

And finally in this picture the flat part on the receiver pivot pin is so tight against the lower receiver, it is so hard to get the pin to back out...
Also it is really hard to line up the upper to the lower from the front pivot point... Is this normal?


The pictures dont really show how bad the finish is on the bolt carrier and ripples on the receiver.  It looks worse in person.   Is this normal?   I know finish doesnt affect functionality and how well it performs but it looks horrible.   Am I being too picky or does it seem as if my new lmt slipped through the cracks during qc as far as workmanship?  Should I call lmt or the dealer I bought it from and voice my concerns?  Please help, I need lots of advice as I have never encountered this before with any firearm.  Anyone else with lmt rifles or products that look like this?  Thanks in advance.

that bcg does look like a rough mold. The missed castle nut stake is no excuse for that price range even if it's a friday/monday gun.

Call LMT and ask to speak with Gene Swanson.  Email the pics to him and I know Gene will make it right.  This is not what LMT would like to have out there representing their company.  As busy as maufacturers are right now, everyone is having some issues with QC.  

Your right to not be satisfied with your stick.  You paid for the quality and the function.  If you only get the function, you still don't have have part of what you paid for.

I would request a new rifle from LMT.  There is evidence of very sloppy assembly work and you should not take the insult of having paid close to $1300 for that rifle.  That carrier should have never been used and should have been recycled at the factory. There is no excuse for that rifle to have left the factory.  I don't  care if it functions fine now.  Given the carelessness in assembly you can't be confident the rifle will be fine over its expected life cycle.   I really hate that some folks will excuse manufacturers for poor quality with the arguement of function over all else. That's fine if you are buying a Saturday night special but not when someone spends a paycheck for a rifle!

I had a scratch like that in almost the same spot on my new LMT. I just rolled with it because the scratch isnt anything I wanted to worry over. My concern with mine was the fit. My LMT had a considerable amount of play compared to my Stag, I had the same hard time thinking I paid $1200 for this. Well I went and shot mine yesterday and it ran flawlessly for 200 rounds. Looks like you have a few more probs than just the scratch though. Send that sucker back and make them give you at least a free hat or something.

Unacceptable; in fact QC like that can ruin a company. That thing should have never left the factory. Call LMT.

Must be improved, self-lubricating carrier to match their self-lubricating MIM gas key.
Maybe it's their newest, unadvertised, self-lubricating rifle.

Wow! That is bad. I would be able to put up with the ripples and scratches, but to leave an unfinished spot on the upper receiver and poorly machined BCG is unacceptable. I have no doubt LMT will make it right. Please keep us updated when you get a replacement.

If that crack in the bolt carrier key is a real crack,and the material in the new MIM,that is a real bad item.

From looking at the pictures I am starting to think LM&T is accepting some IMHO poor quality parts. Also I am thinking LM&T is having some outside vendor doing some if not all of their civilian rifles.

Your LM&T rifle is a far different looking rifle,then the LM&T Defender 2K I bought about three years ago.

Guess I have to go and re-check my MRP 12" piston that's sitting at my dealer waiting for a stamp..

Mine is supposed to ship here in the next month or so.  I certainly won't be happy after my 6+ month wait receiving something like that.  Good luck and let us know how things work out.

My carbine upper from LMT is flawless and shoots 1 moa. Mine was made in July 08.  I dont understand how a manufacturer like them would allow that to leave their factory.

MAN, I NEED A NEW JOB!!!!!!!!!

Dang, was that bolt carrier carved by a cub scout out of balsa wood?  I have seen pinewood derby cars that were smoother.

My Olympic Arms is leap years better than that.......

Heck my 70 year old remington single shot that was left in the barn for 10 years is better than that!  Yuck.

Unacceptable and I would not have taken delivery of that.  I refused a DD because of a tiny surface scratch on the upper and into the lower that happened after QC during packaging.  Very minor.

Send that beast back....

New

Lesse.....

The ripling and "scratches" on the upper and lower are from the forging process.  As demand has increased, i'm sure the forging houses are ramping up production as well and this sort of thing slips through.  

Wouldn't suprise me if they were also useing as much scrap as they could and letting stuff out the door that would normally be recycled for blemishes, just to keep their clients (like LMT) happy.

The "grey" areas on the upper ejection port are from the internal finish process that leaves a layer of material on the inside of the upper that is supposed to help with lubrication.  Some companies advertise this as a dry film lubricant treatment, so that's one thing i'd not worry a whit about.

The bolt carrier.....hhmm....seems rough, but i've had similar berfore and it doesn't mean much of anything.

It would seem to me that someone is useing their tool/machine dies too long and letting them get dull as hell before replacing them.  

So long as the CD's are correct (critical dimensions) on the running rails, internal machining, etc, It's another thing i'd really not worry about.

Thing I WOULD worry about are as follows....

MIM gas key......nuff said...

Upper and lower forgings.....While purely cosmetic so far, they could be an indicator of issues with the forging dies, or even evidence that the forging house isn't geting the material to the proper temp before beating the shit out of it with the forge.  This could create internal stresses or micro-cracks that can't be seen, don't matter really during the machine process, but can show over time or under heavy stress load (like shooting the damn thing).

Castle nut staking.....absofuckinglutly shameful....were that my shop, i'd rather melt the gun before I let it leave my shot looking like that.   No excuse.

I'd aske LMT to replace some of the parts on that rifle starting with......the rifle.



On the other hand, this line of thinking......



Is completely unecessary, excessive, and ridiculous......

To each their own my friend.......it was visible from arm's length and I was buying the gun for its quality and fit and finish instead of buying the Colt.  They had about 10 of them so they just went back and got another box.  No big deal.

New

Part of me thinks that is unacceptable, especially for the price.  The other half wants to ask "Ya gonna stare at it or shoot it?".  

I have one simple question.....

The parts which are problematic on this gun.....are they designed to look like that or are they designed to look differently?

If I were to pick up 100 LMT rifles would 99 look like this one or would 99 look like they should?

Unacceptable, completely.

New

That's ridiculous and unacceptable.  We all know demand is high, but allowing stuff like that out of the plant is unacceptable.  

I'm sure LMT will make it right when you call.

I would be unhappy with the weapon. And I am generally in the "fit and finish worry is BS" crowd. Most of these types of posts are silly and the posters need to shoot more, whine less. In your case, that does not look like an expensive, supposedly top-of-the-line carbine. Call LMT.

I have a new LMT BCG sitting in front of me, and just looked at it under magnification. The finish on the carrier is a little rough, although not any rougher than my Colt bolt carrier, but doesn't look as rough as yours is. You probably just got a fortuitous assembly of all less than decently finished components. From what I've seen posted here about LMT's customer service, I there's a good chance they'll make it right. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

What did LMT say when you brought this to their attention?

Call LMT.

To be fair - make sure to rejoice in this thread at how happy you are once they resolve the issue.

Every manufacturer has defects.  It's how they resolve them that separates the good companies from the bad ones.

The only things that bother me are the castle nut staking??? and the pivot pin. Those are obvious shoddy workmanship. The rest wouldn't concern me in the least. However, I would certainly want those two problem corrected.

Yah I recently bought a new defender lower and it had a real crappy stock stake job like the one in the photos above, ended up fixing it myself. I believe QC has gone down some due to the demand for ARs has gone up to Obama.

Nobody wants a scratch on their safe queen, and that's OK.

While we all want LMT and others to be more like Colt in QC, they don't have to LOOK like Colt in the process.  The gas key is at least staked, but I agree it makes me itchy to see the stress cracks.  The Castle nut staking is abismal.  Send it back.

I see what you did



 

Actually, I want the QC of all to be more like LaRue, Daniel Defense, and other top enders.

It doesn't matter whether I plan to take the gun into battle or leave it in the safe and never touch it.  It is about the money I spend and expecting perfection (or as close to it as possible) and will not accept defects from the factory including in fit and finish.  If I were enlisting and were handed a beat to hell rifle, no biggie.  But I take extreme and extraordinary care of my guns (all of them) because I have inherited guns that were cared for for crap and it was disappointing somewhat.  I want to hand my children some very nice guns when I am gone.

Don't confuse what you are willing to accept with the way things are supposed to be.

The posts like this and one with the Colt that was just put together terribly are not how the guns are intended to be.  If I shell out good money, I want the lower smooth and well prepared, the bolt to be as it should.  Shelling out money for poor QC and then saying "well gee it is a tool" isn't acceptable to me.  If it is for you or others, I don't begrudge you of that.  But those of you that argue with a poster that they are wrong about obvious defects doesn't follow with me.

If I had bought the new Colt 6920 which had such different color lower and upper that I had to verify that the gun wasn't used and a mixmaster, that's not something I would be proud to show off at the range.  If I have to explain the problems to others, the gun shouldn't have come like that.

New

I have great news.  After talking to Gene at LMT and Rainier arms on friday, my rifle is getting exchanged with a new one.  I spoke to Gene once over the phone and spoke to John at Rainier Arms twice.  After sending emails and photos to both companies I received an email the same day stating that LMT has responded to Rainier Arms and to send my rifle to Rainier to have my rifle exchanged.  In the beginning I was really disappointed with my purchase, however now with the results of talking to both companies they provided me with a resolution that in the end was in my best interest.  LMT and Rainier Arms has proven they both stand behind their products.  I just wanted to let everyone know the outcome.  I will be sending my gun in monday or tuesday.  I will keep you guys posted once I get the new rifle in and inspect it.  Buy with confidence with LMT and Rainier Arms as they do make sure their customers are satisfied.  Thanks.

Good for LMT and Ranier.......everyone lets a squeaker through.  Maybe the QC dude had a fight with his wife that morning and didn't have his head in the game.

The important thing is that they didn't blame you for being overly sensitive and corrected it.  I will remember them next time I need a rifle.

New

The "Gray stuff" near you ejection port is the dry lube film that is airbrushed on after the receiver is anodized.  It's not possible to get that stuff sprayed in there perfectly, all LMT's come like that.  If it bothers you take some solvent (something stronger that CLP)  and rub it off with a cloth around the areas where it bothers you, it will wipe right off.  Just make sure you don't get it inside the chamber or you will take it off there.  Eventually the bolt will wear the stuff out of the chamber, but that's after a couple thousand rounds.  Don't be suprised if every nook and cranny on the rifle is pretty, LMT makes their rifles for war, not sitting pretty in a safe, or looking pretty at a range.  Their good reputation comes from running the piss out the rifle without it failing.  It's a rilfe you can trust your live with.

LMT makes weapons that are used and made for war..... The LMT reputation comes from running flawless in the worst conditions,  not winning a beauty pagent.  I wouln't be suprised at all if LMT stopped selling to civilians becasue of all of these whiners that want a pretty rifle for a pet.  Why not take the rifle out and shoot it, if something breaks LMT will replace it.  Im pretty sure you will not have to make that call.

I concur.

If that is the best that LMT could do with the rifle, they shouldn't sell to civilians.

Clearly, LMT concurred that the gun was poorly QC'd and made it right.  Bottom line, I would question that rifle if I were issued it by the service......

Fail.

New

stop with the insults in tech, or next one is a warning ~Cold

This for an LMT I to would be going hmmmmmm.

On the flip side I sure hope some troop doesn't lose the advantage against an enemy when that crappy bolt carrier shatters in the heat of battle.   No one will be laughing or rolling on the ground about that.   If our government is accepting crap like that we better hope we have a lot of troops waiting to replace the fallen ones.  No one here is arguing that overall appearance is the sole factor in quality.  That would be foolish.   What is foolish is accepting an inferior product with questionable assembly from a manufacturer that has a reputation of excellence while excusing the lack of QC for what ever reason. Rainier and LMT appear to understand this and have agreed to replace the rifle.

Look, if you want to pay for shit looking rifle, do it.  If I am buying it for my personal use, it will be right in all capacities.  That is not right and not the way it is supposed to be.  If you want to argue that it is good enough for you, that's not surprising.  You look like a moron arguing that this rifle is right.....If it were LMT wouldn't have handled it.

Shit quality (in this case), shit quality control, shit build....I guess that this is part of the little bitty dick measuring that goes along with the "my noveske is better than your Colt" nonsense that goes on around here.  I just bought a Daniel Defense and if it were built like this, I would have got my money back and bought a different brand.  

New

stop with the insults in tech, or next one is a warning ~Cold

Soku,
I agree 100% about the BCG.  I am just referring to the comments others made about the small imperfections within the finish of the rifle.

Uh, I'm picking up my LMT CQB Piston on the 18th (UPS Don't loose it) For 2 grand,  I am expecting every bit of Quailty out of it as any other product that I buy.
My larue has fit and finish, I would expect nothing more from any other maufacture.

I agree. I work for the "factory" as a service tech (non gun related) and while we are the world leaders in our field, we have QA issues form time to time. But we take care of or customers which is why we are the prefered "design around" product and have 30-40 year relationships with our customers. LMT is such a company from my limited experience. My complete upper, BCG and BUIS were just recently purchased in the last 3 months with none of the problems you have. I choose LMT based on thier rep and they will most liklely be more than willing to correct this. Give 'em a chance and then judge.
Just my modest opinion. By the way, TRANE forever...
Let us know.
Thanks

I have two barrels and one complete rifle kit from Del-ton, no issues like on this rifle. Machining sucks on carrier and those cracks are unacceptable

Send it back. I have had 2 LMTs I built from separate uppers and lowers and they looked nice, nowhere near that one.

Of course I would accept it in the military, I wouldn't have a choice.

One small blemish, it happens.  That many blemishes = shit.  I wouldn't accept it if I had anything to do with it.  I certainly wouldn't accept it if I was paying my personal money for it.

That bolt carrier is a huge issue as is the cracks in the staking.

Sorry, I hope you aren't in sales because you couldn't sell ice to desert dwellers.  You certainly aren't selling the nonsense you are posting here.

JMHO, YMMV

New

I'm not part of the "fit and finish" crowd but that looks like shit. I could handle the scratches but when you consider the overall quality and amount of mistakes on that rifle it adds up to

very poor QC. The castle nut staking is a complete joke and I'm glad that LMT decided to stop making MIM keys that crack during staking. Good to hear that they took care of you though.

This is a LMT as per AR15 protocol is should of been deleted at first sight of this thread. It is not like it was a Bushmaster.

The staking on my 6920 castle nut was worse.  Atleast they got one of yours solid, on my 6920 is was virtually nonexistent...





I had to beef it up myself.  Its not hard, so its really no big deal.

As noted before, the grey on the ejection port is drylube...

Uh, not really, the top one is correct. The other one looks a little light.

Are you sure thats not a Vulcan?

+1