User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:11:45 PM EDT
Okay, so I took down some notes today and decided to provide maximum detail to you guys who helped me. (SamColt, etc.)
Here is what I took down. 1) I fired my AR twice now 2) The problems occur EXACTLY after 112 rounds have been fired (4 mags of 28). This is the exact point of when my AR began short-stroking and having FTE's. Here are pictures from the range, of exactly what happens (Pictures are from today):    3) After the first time these incidents occurred I took my bolt apart and sprayed down the whole rifle with CLP and left it over-night, as per advice of an ARFCOM'er 4) This morning, I completely cleaned all the carbon build up and crud from my chamber, bolt (inside and out), carrier, gas key, firing pin. 5) I re-lubricated the rifle, and took it to the range 6) After my short-strokes, I checked to see if my O-Rings were aligned. They weren't. 7) I have confirmed that all of my magazines are working well, but it is exactly after 4 mags when this incident occurs. 8) While firing the first few mags, my AR fired precisely and consistantly, but my friend couldn't help but notice some smoke coming out of my handguards. I wasn't worried I assumed it was a hot barrel + moisture. 9) I am currently STUMPED as to what may be wrong with the rifle, but I took my rifle apart right now, without touching anything and took some pictures that might help decode my problem.         If you need anymore pics or details to help narrow down my issue, please ask! Thanks 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:27:18 PM EDT
[#1]
looks like a 20" AR?
1- you have way too much oil in the chamber area, for me anyway 2- check torque on gas key (allen screws ontop of carrier) 3- check function of you ejector spring and plunger, maybe try reinstalling it if it binds up |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:32:03 PM EDT
[#2]
I figured that too, but I was running my AR literally dry two days ago and it did the same exact thing. Excuse the rampant retardation but what do you mean by check the torque on the gas key? Should they be very tight, loose, etc..? I'm not sure if the ejector and plunger might be the problem, because after I clean my rifle, it functions flawlessly and ejects very firmly. Right after those 4 mags is when it starts to become an asshole. Do the pictures show any sign of a leak in the gas tube? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:32:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Might be a loose barrel nut. My LMT did the same thing after a few mags, the hotter, the worse. LMT tightened the barrel nut, dropped it into a sonic tank to get the grit out, and it runs fine now.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:34:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Way to much crud in the barrel extension/chamber area.
are you positive it's short stroking? does it fail to lock back on an empty magazine?? all the time?? some of the time?? how often?? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:44:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Is there anyway I can go about tightening my barrel nut, without having a gun-smith do it? Or does it require professional attention.
I know, that from those pictures it shows a lot of crud in the chamber area, but I don't believe it is the cause of my problems because of like I said, when it was doing the same thing the first time I shot it, my rifle was running dry as hell. There was no crud in the chamber/extention area either, just carbon. It locks back fine on an empty magazine, never had a problem with that. Like I said it runs VERY well before this shit starts to happen. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:51:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Turn the deta ring on the barrel with the little play it has and look close youll see if the whole assembly is moving or not.Yes you can titghten it with a barrel wrench,upper vise blocks,a vice and a 1/16 punch to knock out the gas tube roll pin.Also check the carrier key for looseness.All you need is a gap the thickness of a piece pf paper to get gas loss.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 12:41:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Hemi, could you give us a rundown of your AR again. Did you build it yourself? Complete upper; complete rifle when purchased? Or could you link us to your original post when this problem started.
Off hand, I would refrain from diagnosing your problem as "short stroking" as it would appear that - as you mentioned 1) the problem does not occur immediately and always; and 2) the bolt does lock back upon firing the last round (if i understood you correctly). But you definitely have a Failure to Extarct (FTE) and Failure to Feed (FTF). These may be caused by a lot of things INCLUDING short stroking. If you built the upper yourself, then as Chromeline mentioned, check to make sure there the barrel is torqued properly and there is no play between the barrel and the reciever. Is the bolt new? The reason I asked is to make sure that the extractor springs are new and ok. You say that when you start off, the bolt is clean. It functions flawlessly. Then in time / by your 4th mag, it starts to act up. Do you check if there is fouling on the "claw" of the extractor? If you have a friend that has an AR, why not borrow his bolt and run it in your AR. If the problem still occurs, then at least we have eliminated the bolt and its extractor as the possible culprit. Keep us updated and good luck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 12:49:57 AM EDT
[#8]
If it locks back on an empty mag it is not short stroking. It appears maybe it is failing to eject.
Pull the bolt apart and clean under the extractor relief. Generously lube the ejector rod but pooling lube in the bolt face and work the ejector to get the lube to flow into the bolt. I had one bitch of an RRA bolt get brass shavings in the ejector housing, a new bolt fixed the problem. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 6:34:42 PM EDT
[#9]
When it is getting jammed, is the spent brass stuck to the bolt face like the rim is wedged into it?
If so, I've seen this problem and it was caused by brass flakes/shavings stuck in and around the plunger on the bolt face. Might be worth checking. Just push the plunger down with a punch or a dowel and see if there is too much resistance or if you can visibly see brass flakes. Also your chamber looks filthy. You might have to take a dental pick to it, to free up the carbon/powder build up. And your bolt has a ton of carbon built up on it that needs to be scraped off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 6:45:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but what ammo you running in there? Is it the same ammo all the time when the problem occurs?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:10:35 PM EDT
[#11]
When I play with the delta ring, the whole assembly does not move, but the crown that holds the base of the handguards (in the d-ring) does and reveals a gap between the gas tube when I move it around, but the gas tube stays still.
I have a Bushmaster 20" A3 1:9 with a MEGA Gator Grip lower reciever. I did not assemble the rifle. I took a few pictures, and spent a lot of time just now cleaning fouling with a tooth-pick + cloth. I can't say that there was a huge abundance of shit in the claw or the bolt-face but there was carbon build up that I missed.  Unfortunately no one I know has an AR, that I can swap with
I am running only Radway Green SS109. I am planning on giving my rifle another test drive Wednesday, but maybe my details might spark up more questions. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:23:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Ok. Keep us posted.
May I suggest also, if you have not done it yet, that you label your mags (a,b,c,d or 1,2,3,4) and take note of which mag you are using if and when it malfunctions. Do this each time you go out. This is an additional data we may have to look into. Good luck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:28:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks Eye, I am numbering them as we speak. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:31:35 PM EDT
[#14]
a couple months ago someone posted short stroking problems after using radway green after 3-4 magazines. apparently there was a leak in the FSB/gas tube that only became apparent after the parts warmed up, and the weaker powered radway. (search the ammo forum)
I'd say clean it, check the carrier key/ gas key, ejector plunger... and give it a run with 5-6 magazines of lake city ammo |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:52:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Radway Green is known to be underpowered.
Give it a try with some different ammo. I would also check the gas key, and make sure it is tight and staked. If you want, you could add a #6 O-ring to the extractor spring. When you re-install your bolt, make sure it just has a lite film of oil on it, yours is looking really wet IF I was a betting man, I would say that it is the ammo |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 9:50:06 PM EDT
[#16]
I exhaustively try alot of brands out of the box, firstly to see what the gun will eat, and second to see what it is most accurate with. RG is underpowered, some of it down-loaded for the SA-80. In those terms, it's not even designed to run your gun (tho I think it probably should if everything is up to snuff). |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 10:20:53 PM EDT
[#17]
RG functions extremely well in my AR and it's VERY accurate up to the 5th mag, when it starts to have FTE's and FTF's. Even then, when I manually chamber a round it shoots fine.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/20/2006 10:39:20 PM EDT
[#18]
I run Radway but had tons of problems using Guat and Radway in LMT- however discovered the barrel nut was loose which LMT addressed. I also put in a once piece gas ring, D-Ring, and extra powered return spring. Now it runs fine overall! Plus it looks cool.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 2:11:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Alright Range Report number 3 and I have good news and bad news.
Good News: My Mags are fine, they are not the issue and I was able to get 7 mags before I had more FTF/FTE. Bad News: Still having problems  I was able to get 210 rounds today before I started having the problems again, I have confirmed that all of my mags are fine as I was to get all 6 through perfectly and then a 7th reload. The 8th mag began giving me problems again. I've also noted that when I do get an extraction while my rifle is having problems, the round barely ejects. This sounds like an issue with my ejector but it looks fine. I took more pictures of my AR broken down after the range visit, maybe someone will find something that doesn't belong.        
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 3:10:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Are you using a standard buffer spring? I used a CS high power buffer spring for awhile and it would do EXACTLY what yours does: work fine for a while, then those problems.
A standard buffer spring fixed it all. Nothing looks out of the norm as far as I can see with your parts. Go out and buy some winchester, remington, federal, etc ammo and see if it's the radway causing the problems. Some AR's don't like some ammo. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 3:22:09 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm not sure, I got it used. Is there any hint of a gas leak in your opinion? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 3:51:59 PM EDT
[#22]
I am by no means an expert, but the one thing you should check is to see if your getting enough gas.
Single load a magazine with one rd and fire it. See if the bolt locks to the rear. do this about a dozen times. if it fails to lock back once or twice, you have a gas issue which is causing your problem. Also replace your extractor and spring with a brand new one. The one pic you did not show is of the top of your Gas key. Check that bad boy to see if it's tight and staked properly. And lesson learned... This is why I do not use anything but factory build. To many problems you can inherit from some other knuckle head who thinks he can build a rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:03:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Hrm, well Harv I appreciate the advice. I fire 4-7 mags with NO problems at all. It feeds perfectly and is consistant. After that one point is when everything goes to shit. Here is a picture of my gas key.  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:04:03 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm going to bet it's a gas key that needs to be tightend or a gas tube alignment / sealing issue.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:07:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Sorry for being so redundant, I'm just trying to some-how understand this on my own. If my gas key wasn't tight enough, or my gas tube wasn't aligned or sealed properly wouldn't that mean that my AR wouldn't function well at all? I'm just wondering, because like I said it functions VERY well before this happens. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:11:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Sometimes when they get hot the tolerances start to change and the problems begin. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:13:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Do you know where I can find a further dis-assembly guide which will include removal of the gas tube? |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:18:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Can you remove your buffer and spring so I can see what kind it is?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:19:15 PM EDT
[#29]
I wouldn't pull the gas tube out yet, if the gas tube is out of alignment it can be "tweaked" while in the receiver.
Have you tried spraying some gun scrubber type cleaner into the upper when it starts jamming? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:27:48 PM EDT
[#30]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:29:29 PM EDT
[#31]
No, but I keep my carrier and bolt lubricated very well. I over-lubricated it and under-lubricated it, and the same things happen. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:31:02 PM EDT
[#32]
I thought we already established that it wasn't short stroking.
It does lock back on an empty mag. when you fire one round...correct? when it starts to experience problems will it consistently lock the bolt open when you fire one round? is the tip of the ejector flush with the face of the bolt? press down and then release the ejector a few times with a punch or something... does the action of the ejector feel smooth? or does it feel rough? does it feel like it's catching or binding? I would even go so far as to take the ejector apart and clean out the ejector channel and check the ejector pin for burrs or rough spots. I would clean everything back up again, inspect the ejector as outlined above and go shoot it somemore. when you get home carefully inspect the bolt paying particular attention to the face of the bolt and the area in and around the extractor and ejector. look for fine brass shavings that might be working their way into the extractor and/or ejector. after I installed a new barrel once I had brass shavings that were appearing on my bolt. It turned out that the bolt had a sharp edge at the extractor shelf that was shaving the back of the brass case as the bolt rotated into battery with the new barrel. I was able to closely inspect with a magnifying glass my bolt after shooting my rifle and I was able to see where the brass marks on the sharp edge on the extractor shelf. I took a small stone and gently smoothed out this area and havent had any more brass shavings appear. we'll get this damn thing running yet. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:33:40 PM EDT
[#33]
So let's say it's gas related. There are two ways I can think of that can reduce the gas volume - a leak, or a blockage. I don't think gas tube blockages are common, since the force of the gas tends to self clean it. And I didn't see you mention any obvious crud buildup in the gas key. Also, if it was a blockage it wouldn't happen so consistently. So I think a blockage is unlikely.
That leaves a leak as the main suspect. Perhaps after heating up sufficiently something is expanding just enough to leak. You stated you inspected your barrel nut and it seemed OK. I'd check everything related to the gas tube. There could be an improper fit at one end or the other. If possible I'd try replacing the gas tube. Here's another idea. Fire enough rounds to make the problem start happening. Then set the rifle down and let it cool for 20-30 minutes. Then fire another mag of rounds. If that mag works OK, then heating is indeed the contributing factor. ETA: You said you've tried lubing everything to no avail. Expansion due to heating could also cause increased friction somewhere in the action. But since you said the problem occurs only after 3-4 mags, whether the rifle is dry or heavily lubed, I'd guess that such friction isn't the issue. This again leads me to believe it's a gas leak. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:40:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Can i ask have you ever used a chamber brush on that rifle?I would put a oring over the ejector spring and clean the chamber if you have not yet
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:42:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Yes it locks back fine before the issue, I haven't mentioned short-stroking anymore  When the issue occurs, it still locks back after a lot of chamber clearing Yes, the ejector is flush with the bolt. The action seems fine in my ejector when I depress it myself. I've cleaned my ejector and ejector housing religously before this range visit, which I assume was the reason why it lasted longer 
What I will do, is I won't clean my AR. I'll leave it exactly as it is and I will take it to a shoot on Saturday. This should be enough cool-down Would someone like myself be capable of replacing the gas tube or is it something an armorer should do? |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:44:34 PM EDT
[#36]
I was just on Fulton Armory looking for parts for my M-14, and I came across this. The review seems to completely describe the issue with my rifle.
www.fulton-armory.com/D-Fender.htm
Yes, I also use the C & J Barrel Extension swabs to clean it after which are specifically shaped for it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:46:57 PM EDT
[#37]
What brand of mags and how old are they? Your gun looks dry to me, flash is deceptive. If they are a certain brand of mags in my mind, you may have it narrowed down with that............. It may be less stress to part the gun out and buy one that works. I have 7 that I abuse and they all run. It is hard to imagine one that doesn't. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:47:42 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm stumped. Keep us updated though, I am curious to see how it turns out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:49:36 PM EDT
[#39]
I know you didn't mention short stroking but some people were starting to go down the "it's a gas issue" road again.
replacing the gas tube is easy but I don't think that's your problem. have you checked in the FL home town forum for someone who may be able to meet you at a range and give you some "on-site" help?? as far as the Defender O ring goes I would install a heavy duty extractor spring rather then the Defender. you can also just go down to Home Depot and get an O-ring of the same size as the Defender and install it over the extractor spring just to see if adding extractor tension cures your problem. frankly that's an easy something to try and you should try it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:51:47 PM EDT
[#40]
I didn't read all of the replies closely, but what brand/type of ammo? Radway?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:51:57 PM EDT
[#41]
I could meet him in Arcadia, but thats about a two hour drive for him. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 4:55:25 PM EDT
[#42]
I have one Colt mag and 5 D&H mags both brand new but I am 99% certain mags are not an issue.
I run Radway Green, and at one point I will try more ammo but I'm not sure if the ammo is the cause of the problem. I will see if anyone in Hometown can give me a hand. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 5:08:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Concerning the potential gas situation:
Assemble your own LOWER, UPPER, FREE FLOAT, TRIGGER, GAS BLOCK - Step by step instructions! Check your setup against these build directions. Should help point out any potential discrepancies. More info in the thread above.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 5:45:10 PM EDT
[#44]
I would try a oring over the ejector spring its a small oring that just fits around it can get one at any auto parts store. Can some one post pic of one installed. It will cure ejection problems.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:06:07 PM EDT
[#45]
What's odd about this is the relatively precise timing of this FTE, at the 4th magazine, not before or long after. Weak or damaged springs, general build-up of crud, neither of these are going to have that sort of timing. If a spring were too weak, it'll show itself in a malf with regularity but on no schedule, same with dirt. The FTE you're getting is related to heat build-up as that is the only thing that will be the same session to session regardless of how well you cleaned your gun. 4 mags of ammo is 4 mags of ammo, the heat generated by that is not going to change much.
A cold gun is going to be at its most reliable state, where tolerances are at their loosest. But heat isn't the problem, it's simply causing the real problem to show itself at that precise temperature (whatever 4 mags generates), so I'm thinking it's damaged somewhere. Clean the gun completely of crud and lube, get it bone dry. Carefully check the bolt, bolt lugs, extractor, barrel extension and carrier key, then remove the handguards and look at the FSB, gas tube and barrel nut. You're looking for any sign of damage, even the smallest crack that will expand under heat. General looseness of any of these parts is also something to check, but loose parts are going to be at their loosest when the gun is cold. A malf caused by loose parts is going to fail much sooner than 4 mags. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:16:29 PM EDT
[#46]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:18:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Im dumb founded, the pictures posted looked fine,but I was looking at bolt head, is their a small hairline crack there?
Hard to tell by looking at pixs. Keep us posted, I'd like to know what causing this problems as well. TG |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 6:37:16 PM EDT
[#48]
I will keep you all updated, this saturday I'm going to a shoot where someone will luckily swap parts with me to see what's wrong.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 7:24:02 PM EDT
[#49]
it might just be me, but that extractor spring looks pretty beat up. i would swap that out
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 8:00:24 PM EDT
[#50]
If it wasn't for the timing of the failures I would say dpmmn is all over this. I'm still not convinced he isnt though. A couple thoughts: Ruling out the ammo - pick up a hundred rounds of something else and start with that. If it fails after the 4th mag stop shooting and read Soldier of fortune for 20 minutes whlie the rifle cools down. Repeat with same ammo but this time after the third mag stop and let it cool then start over. We need to try everything we can to get it not to fail. Then when that happens we're getting closer. Then repeat that process with the Radway Green. If letting it cool is the answer then ugh....But at least we'll know... As dpmmn mentioned get a #6 o ring or that d ring if you prefer. Also look at Brownells and get a 3 pack of HD extractor springs. They are exactly what should be shipped with all bolts IMHO. These things are cheap and can be swapped at the range. Swap them out and repeat after a moderate cleaning. Not the bore just the chamber and BCG. Also make dog gone sure that ejector is working properly. Holding the bolt firmly use a punch and make sure the ejector is moving freely. Gunk-out is a great product. It's a degreaer that I cant live without. If you happen to have some or something similar with a straw - clean that bolt good. Blast it in the ejector spring oil hole, completly clean and coat lightly, just barely with CLP. With this trip to range if the failures continue you can rule out the ammo and probably the BCG if you make those upgrades to it. |
|
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
