User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 9:04:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Is the extractor spring in the right way..the fat end should snap in the extractors hole itself and the insert in the small end so it does not bind up in the inside of the spring.Notice the insert has a flared bottom...could be when it warms up the insert is getting stuck in the middle of the spring binding it up and decreasing tension.Check and see the spring is in right.#1 your extractor spring is not straight...do me a favor and turn the spring around in insert the the end thats showing into the extractor and put the insert in the oposite side..push down with your thumb until it snaps in it does have a fatter end...if the spring doesnt snap in its not fully seated in the extractor try it before messing with anything else.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/24/2006 11:58:21 PM EDT
[#2]
id try diff ammo, it looks dirty as hell. your not using break free are you?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 12:40:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Yes, I'm using break-free CLP |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 12:42:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Chrome Lined sent me a message concerned about my extractor spring and I think he may have been right, I took some pictures of exactly the way my ejector was seated. I'm no professional, but from everything I know the wider end should be the part that is seated. These are pictures of exactly how my extractor spring was in.
  |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 4:20:55 AM EDT
[#5]
I seriously wouldn't be suprised if it is an ammo issue. The RG is full powered but has a different pressure curve. I would run a different type of ammo at the same pace/round count as you have with the RG and see if it will function any different.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 4:26:45 AM EDT
[#6]
try something different. we had the same thing happen with all our weapons when they issued those otis kits with the little bottles of break free. the stuff we had was really gritty. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:31:42 AM EDT
[#7]
My .02$
IF your GAS Port is undersized or to the LOW side of MILSPEC AND your Gas block is slightly out of alignment = even smaller gas pressure as the HEAT expansion exacerbates the REDUCTION of gas flow/pressure increasing the likelihood of your problem. If a change of ammo LIKE LC (Higher Pressured that RADway) increases the time to FAILURE (How many mags before failure) then this MAYBE an area to LOOK at. Had a similar problem on WESCOG upper build of mine, it was undersized gas port and possibly slight misalignment of gas block. Corrected port opening, CAREFULLY aligned gas block, assembled and prayed - problem disappeared. YMMV. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 7:55:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Hemi -Cuda,
By your pics and arrows it looks like the extractor spring insert was backwards? And am I correct that this is a Bushmaster complete upper? I ask because your jams are very similar to what I started getting with a Bushmaster after only 20 rounds - I then found that the extractor spring got much weaker compared to before it was fired. Bushmaster sent me a completely new extractor assembly, with an O-ring this time. I'm starting to get the feeling that Bushmaster had some bad/ underpowered spings get out of the factory.. anyway, I also have some Wolff springs - going to do testing this weekend. (See my other post:www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=288026) While I don't claim to be an expert with AR-15's, I've done my fair share of wrench-turning over the decades.. one of the things I was pondering with my situation is if I had a bad spring - to the best of my knowledge, springs with faulty heat treating/annealing can soften up or lose thier power at a specific heat range. Or they may just not hold up for more than a few cycles, which seems to have happened in my case. I think in your case, the mystery of a specific failure point of after 4 mags, may very well be heat related.. but not gas. (Famous last words at Taco Bell hatand the extractor is the culprit. I say try the O-ring/ extractor spring first, it's the cheapest and simplest to test, and then if it still is acting up, at least you can cross that off the list of potential causes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 8:10:20 AM EDT
[#9]
The same exact thing happened to me at the range after about 150 rounds my rifle pulled the exact same shit on me and wasn't ejecting the round all the way it stopped half way just like in your first picture, i brought it to a gun store and the guy said that the gas key was loose, probably after i was dicking around with it
 , anyway now it works great so it could be that
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 9:06:06 AM EDT
[#10]
If it were my gun I would replace the extractor spring and change out the gas rings.
EDIT: Also, because it is cheap, change out the ejector and it's spring. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 12:44:06 PM EDT
[#11]
So no one else thinks that this was because of the extractor spring sitting backwards?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 12:50:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Eeh... Could be, but it's hard to tell if from the pics if the spring was backwards, or if just the insert was backwards. Either way, you'd possibly be getting binding.. but how would this have anything to do with heat?
IMO: Option 1) Cheapest - reinstall current spring and insert correctly and re-test Option 2) Get a new extractor spring, install and re-test |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 1:15:20 PM EDT
[#13]
The spring was seat liked this \ / I put it back in like this / \ |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 1:23:45 PM EDT
[#14]
It looked to me that the extractor spring was in backwards as well. If that if it is and get a #6 I think o-ring from harware store.
All that said, it looks to be extracting but just not ejecting - or it just doesn't have time to eject (shortstroking). Have you tried and cycling the action w/o ammo right after this happens to see if you detect any binding? If it binds, figure out where. Possibilities are gas tube/key, bolt rings/carrier, carrier/receiver extension tube. How about removing the front sight base and cleaning out the gas port? for a little better gas flow? Remove the ejector and spring and clean them and the hole in the bolt where the ejector goes really well. Make sure that the ejector is straight - don't know how it could really bend but... Lube a little and reassemble. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:02:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Heat might not be the issue he said after 4 mags...that just might be the time it took for the binding in the spring and insert to occur...make sure the fat end clicks in and is straight and the insert goes in snug..let us know if that works..in any event change out the spring to an X-Power one..seat it in corectly fat end in and listen and feel for it to snap in..put in the normal insert and wont need an O ring for the extra tension.In any event you wont know if its the way it was aseembled until you put it in the other way with the insert assebled corectly..then if it still happens try replacing the spring first..
$1 isnt much to spend on an X-Power spring.  and if the extractor is not working or moving freely then it does not matter about the ejector the extractor will hold on to the case.If the spring is not staright and the fat end as its made to fit snug in the extractors groove..it will move to far forward and not be "springy"shall we sat and throw the case free as it ejects..remeber the ejector is pushing forward as the extractor pulls and gets a push from the ejector..if the spring is not right its gonna get messed up.To check the ejector use some lube and an empty case to work the ejector back and forth..if its bent you will know..it wont depress smoothely...try the simple things before taking off the FSB or Gas tube ,or tightening screws on the carrier..try the extractor spring or X pwer spring corectly assembled with the insert first. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:14:46 PM EDT
[#16]
That extractor spring was in backwards. Call me tomorrow at the shop. I have an assload of take-out new extractor springs and blue inserts. I will mail you one, no charge. Put it in the extractor with the big end down and with the base of the bumper inserted into the big end of the spring. It should go into the extractor with a 'snap'. Make sure it is vertical to the extractor. This should solve the problem.
A improperly installed or smashed extractor spring does not have the tension required to pull fired rounds from the chamber as the rifle heats up and the chamber shrinks due to heat. This ain't rocket science guys. Most AR problems are pretty simple. Go to the most obvious culprit first and replace the cheapest part first. Denny 816 809 9452 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:16:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Thanks buddy, I'll give you a call. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 5:26:04 PM EDT
[#18]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 7:59:59 PM EDT
[#19]
On all my extractors the insert was always in flat surface against the bolt in slender end to the extractor..is the insert in wrong Denny?..ive never had extractor problems in thousands of rounds or does it really matter how the insert goes in as long as the spring is in right..Where the extractor is the moving part shouldnt the inserts flat end be against the bolt and the slender part be the push off point as the extractor moves?its the same way in all my ARs bolts even ones I bought seperately from colt.Definately not rocket science I agree..I knew the spring looked like it was in wrong.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/25/2006 8:11:45 PM EDT
[#20]
I swear by frigging Brownells HD extractor springs. You can barely pry the extractor with a punch. a 3 pack is a couple bucks. The spring is so much heavier it's hard to believe it even pops over the case rim
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/26/2006 2:55:43 AM EDT
[#21]
I took this bolt apart this morning to show how the extractor spring goes into the extractor. The extractor spring is shown out of the extractor orientated the way it snaps into the extractor. The bumper is already inserted into the extractor spring with the base of the bumper inserted into the big end of the extractor spring.  This picture is of the extractor spring installed in the extractor. A Crane O ring, if one was to be installed, would then be slipped over the small end of the estractor spring. The smaller end of the extractor goes towards the bolt. The should be a definate 'snap' when it pops into place. This extractor assembly is now ready to be replaced in the bolt.  I hope this is clear. Denny |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:36:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Range Report:
I took my AR to the range again today with some ARFCOM'ers and it was extremely hot. Someone offered to switch out bolt carriers with me and it kept doing it. We are now affirmative on a gas problem. Someone gave me some Varmint 75 grain ammo and told me to shoot it to clean out my gas tube. After doing that, I rapid fired two mags without a problem and then I was out of ammo  Also: I now have an O-Ring over my extractor as well, didn't help. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:47:40 PM EDT
[#23]
How is it a gas problem? Over gassing and too much bolt speed? I thought we established it was not short stroking (at any time)? I would try a different bolt. I believe your ejector housing or spring has something to do with this......(Check headspace before doing this!) |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:52:55 PM EDT
[#24]
No no no, I completely swapped the bolt carrier + bolt with another one and it didn't work. Also my rifle failed to lock back on an empty magazine today once. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 12:58:34 PM EDT
[#25]
If you think it is a gas problem, then take off the FSB and check the gas hole on the barrel and make sure it is completely drilled thru. Sometimes the manufacture of the barrel does a crappy job of drilling out the gas hole on the barrel.
I forget what the size drill bit to use. but someone here should know. If the hole is not drilled completely thru and have some blockage, It could cause jamming issues.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 1:20:40 PM EDT
[#27]
You're bound to get killed saying shit like that on ARFCOM 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 1:55:53 PM EDT
[#28]
If its a gas problem and the same thing was happening with a completely different carrier group then its either the gas tube,front site base or the gas hole in the barrel.To centurion the over all design?man go back on the AK side will ya
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 2:01:17 PM EDT
[#29]
I'll take it apart after I take a nice long nap  Yeah! Our rifles may be more finicky but atleast we can hit shit with them
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 2:52:53 PM EDT
[#30]
try a D-ring, looks to be a extraction problem.
I had all your problems before, once a D-ring went in, it went all away. I also use British Radway Green (m855) SS109 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 2:57:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Yep, looks like this is the track. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 4:03:17 PM EDT
[#32]
I don't claim to be an expert, but I think you just had a lot of crap in your gas tube. You ended up with a restricted flow of gas, and thus not enough back pressure to completely cycle. That would explain why the weapon functioned fine after some higher pressure ammo blasted the crap out of the tube.
I doubt that it matters, but the stuff I gave you was Winchester "High Velocity" 45 grain JHP. I had a couple more boxes I would have given to you had I known you were leaving because of insufficient ammo. I thought you were leaving because it was so damned hot. I left about five minutes behind you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/27/2006 8:38:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Well shit where did i get Varmint 75 gr from?! Damn heat I think that may have been it because I rapid fired 2 mags on a very hot gun afterwards and it was perfectly fine. But the rifle has less than 750 rounds through it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 7:13:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Somebody again tell me why the gas problem, causing short striking, would be based on the rifle reaching a certain temperature?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 8:20:43 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm took my gas tube pin out, and im having a REAL hard time pulling out the gas tube. I put pliers + sock for cusion around it and lightly tried to hammer it towards the reciever. It just wont budge. Any tips?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 8:27:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Use a vise...tape the teeth and turn the upper upside down and put the tube in the vise..clamp tight but dont sqish the tube...rotate the upper left to right pulling to the rear and it will come free.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 8:35:52 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm using a vise now, now matter how much I twist, rotate and pull, it wont even budge. I have scratches all over it now. At this point I think I'd rather just hammer it the fuck out and buy a new one. They can't be expensive. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 9:01:26 PM EDT
[#38]
   There is my gas tube, looks fine to me. Dirty, but fine. Also the last pic, is for confirmation. Should I get a new gas tube because of those scratches  , and where
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 9:20:28 PM EDT
[#39]
From Armalite web site, tech note # 48: "...The cartridge case is a highly sophisticated component that performs a number of functions 1. It holds components (bullet, primer, powder) together precisely. 2. It engages key surfaces of the magazine and rifle to transport these components into the chamber. 3. Upon firing, it expands into intimate contact with the chamber wall to seal high pressure gas in the barrel. 4. It contracts from the chamber wall when pressures lower to an acceptable level and when some of the heat within the case is transferred to the chamber wall. 5. It transports heat out of the weapon when extracted. When the weapon overheats, it is harder for the cartridge case to transfer heat to the hot chamber wall and shrink away from it. Adhesion of the cartridge case to the chamber wall results in increased resistance to extraction..." |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 9:48:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Get a new gas tube just to rule it out as the issue. A new one should not cost more than $15 max. You should be able to find one from many of the dealers here on the EE. Also, get the D-fender ring or similar product along with a Wolff extractor spring (or similar) and ALWAYS use them on your bolts. Try some different ammo. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 9:53:36 PM EDT
[#41]
I have an O-Ring over my extractor |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 10:09:44 PM EDT
[#42]
As long as it is one made for use on extractors, such as the D-fender/Crane O-rings, keep it. If you got it from the hardware store, get rid of it and get the right one. An extra power extractor spring (Wolff/Brownells) wont hurt either, and will give additional piece of mind. Again try shooting a good amount (200rds+)of a different brand of (quality) ammunition and let us know how it runs afterwards. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 10:29:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Dayum! Still having problems? I've got to hand it to you Hemi ... you are one patient dude!
And I do mean that with no pun intended. If that were my upper, I would have slammed it on the floor out of sheer frustration! Maybe it's time you had it looked over by a professional gunsmith.  Hope things work out soon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/28/2006 10:44:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Don't you worry, my AR has scuff's it has never seen before After this gas tube replacement, if things dont start to work out. Bitches are gonna get choked. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 4:46:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Might as well, while you have the gas tube out, pull the FSB and check the gas port in the barrel as was suggested. Also check the gas port passage in the FSB. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 1:04:33 PM EDT
[#46]
Do you have a guide to removing the FSB, I have a feeling that I have to just lightly tap it out with a hammer after removing the two pins on the bottom. Naturally, it wont budge with regular pulling. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 1:41:41 PM EDT
[#47]
This has been a very informative post, sorry about the AR design comment, but one day we'll have it all worked out I guess. I have the same problems with one of my rifles.
Just curious, overall it sounded like it mainly became a gas issue only when the parts heated up, which caused binding or at least not enough pressure to properly cycle the bolt. Mine usually acts up around five magazines deep, then suddenly it chokes on everything so I put more lube on the bolt to get it to run another magazine only then it starts choking again. I followed this post very closely because it describes many issues I have experienced. My thought is perhaps the bolt is swelling in the carrier causing it to bind and not properly back out when the pressure is built up, instead because the bolt is bound in the carrier, when it unlocks it does so very violently which coupled with a weak extractor spring- would leave the round in the chamber. Adding lube only helps to reduce the binding or at least help with the bolt unlocking from the binding in the carrier, enough so that it relatively spins but without such a violent reaction, esspecially when pressure is still built up in the barrel retaining the casing. As soon as the bolt gets dry, coupled with swelling from the hot gases dumped directly on it, it chokes. I bet if you were to put some jewelers rouge on the bolt itself mixed into some light oil and run several hundred rounds, it would polish itself enough to not bind in the carrier even when it became hot or evaporated the lube off the bolt. Any thoughts on this? I have used jewelers rouge mixed in oil to polish triggers before by just adding the mix directly to the trigger group during firing, the same principle could be applied here to simply polish the bolt enough so that even when heated, it won't bind in the carrier even if dry. Same reason a well run AR runs better perhaps- because the bolt is slightly worn/polished around the contact surfaces inside the carrier. Thus even with the bolt swelling due to the heat, it won't bind as much, so the extraction won't be as violent- and cause it to run more smoothly. C
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 2:31:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Just curious as this thread has peaked my interest more then most of these type's of threads...
But did you try any of the simple solutions first Like the one I suggested or changing out your Extractor spring and trying different ammo. Cause it sure looks like you went right to "tear the Fu*&er Apart in a pretty big hurry... Cause it's usually the simple shit that causes most problems.... And at the rate your headed... I see a Competent AR Smith that your gonna be paying for in your future....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 2:41:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Nah, I'm not doing anything serious. I'm just replacing my gas tube and hopefully going to check the FS port, if I could figure out how to get it off, that is. I've tried a little bit of other ammo, and I've put an O-Ring over my extractor. Niether of which is the cause of my FTE's and FTF's according to numerous amounts of people. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/29/2006 3:42:30 PM EDT
[#50]
You tried a different bolt as well right?
Based on the reply above to my question about the heating causing the failures. is it possible for this issue to be related to the chamber itself and it's finished dimensions? |
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
.jpg)
