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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:13:04 AM EDT
[#1]
As the 6.5mm or 260 Remington rounds are and have been on the market for quite some time, this is your only choice. When one considers their also the highest BC rounds readily available something you'll need with your choice of 16"-18" barrel lengths and the expectation of decent groups at 800 meters.
It's your only option, IMO, given your proclivities. Mike |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:15:39 AM EDT
[#2]
should i just wait for the 6.8? Im just worried that it will fall through and then we will be up the creek if we have already purchased one.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:22:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Ya want a rifle that'll shoot 800 meters accurately, if what you posted above is to be believed.
Waiting ain't gonna get that 6.8mm round no 800 meters accurately outta no 16-18" barreled AR platform. (check the ballistics on the 6.8....., fwiw, I don't think the 6.5mm will get there either unless a Krieger or similar barrel is in your plan, but you'll have a better shot with it given your unreasonable expectations) I can't make it any plainer......, "of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong" Mike added: now a AR10T chambered in 260 Remington or 6.5mmX08 (whichever ya prefer it as their the same caliber) will go 1000 yards inside 6" in most shooters hands and 4" r smaller in an expert's almost any day of the week, but your expectation for the AR15 platform rounds are somewhat unreasonable......, due to their lack of oomph! |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:25:05 AM EDT
[#4]
will the 6.8 accuracy and range mimic the 5.56? If so that is about what Im looking for.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:25:47 AM EDT
[#5]
And from what ive seen 6.8 are cheaper and the ammo will be cheaper.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:37:53 AM EDT
[#6]
get a 6.5 with a 20" barrel and you'll get to 1k no problem..... just hope you reload- from the price of ammo it looks like it'll get pretty expensive
-Roth |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 8:31:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Both 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC are around $20 a box. Lapua is very close to picking up the round as a factory production cartridge. They already produce the brass.
A Marine Corps shooter using the 6.5 Grendel recently got a 10" group at 1,000 yards, and said it could easily have been half that if the "busy-ness" of the Horus reticles hadn't obscured the target at that range. This with shifty winds between 3 and 7 mph. 6.5mm bullets have killed big game for 100 years, so the caliber itself shouldn't be an issue. The 6.5 Grendel puts those bullets in a small, compact package, giving up some velocity, of course, but not much else. The velocity loss can be overcome to an extent by the fact that you can use long, high-sectional density and high ballistic-coefficient bullets which retain their velocity and thus trajectory, energy, and penetration at longer ranges. For big game, think something like the Hornady 129gr SST, or for smaller Texas deer, the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tips and Partitions are proving very accurate. John ---------------------- 6.5 Grendel: AR10 Soul in an AR15 Body www.65grendel.com |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 8:41:42 AM EDT
[#8]
[DELETE DUPLICATE POST]
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Posted: 10/5/2004 8:53:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Are you intending to shoot deer out to 700-800 meters? First off, it's not terribly smart to attempt that for a variety of reasons, and secondly, neither round will have much oomph at that range. Both of these are 300 yd cartridges realistically.
If you are talking target shooting only, I still think your 16-18" barrel isn't the best option. Better to go with a 22-24" barrel. That will help out also on the hunting side as well. IIRC 6.8 SPC out of an 18" is only good for 2500 fps or so, the Grendel good for maybe 100 fps more. These are good, well balanced moderate range cartridges. Don't try to overextend their capabilities. Mr Wilson has it right. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:02:01 AM EDT
[#10]
There is a difference between trajectory and accuracy. Trajectory is the path the bullet follows. Ignoring wind drift for the time being, this path is determined by only two factors: (1) the bullet's muzzle velocity, (2) the bullet's ballistic coefficient (BC). Accuracy is the measurement of how closely multiple shots follow the same path. This is normally observed by shooting a group at a certain distance and measuring the group size. While a 7 Magnum will have a more flat trajectory than a 308, the 308 may be more accurate than the 7 Mag. Accuracy and trajectory are separate things. A rifle can be flat-shooting but inaccurate; have a more normal trajectory and be accurate; etc. Obviously we all want a flat-shooting cartridge in a rifle that is accurate. If you add wind drift into the mix, the flatter shooting cartridge (ie, higher BC, higher velocity) will be deflected less, so errors in wind doping will have less effect. This is not really pure rifle/cartridge accuracy, but it affects the practical accuracy of the shooter + rifle. If you are serious about shooting to 800 meters, a 16-18" barrel is the wrong choice. For this, a 6.5 with a 24" barrel would be a superior choice. 6.8SPC will lose a smaller fraction of its muzzle velocity as you cut the barrel back from 20" to 18", or 18" to 16", because it is less overbore than 6.5. If you want a handy field rifle for hunting, a 16 or 18" 6.8SPC might be a better choice. Some logistical concerns- Right now, 6.5 brass and loaded ammo is readily available. 6.5 uppers are only available from one source, and it doesn't seem like this will be changing. 6.8SPC loaded ammo is not yet available. All of Remington's production is going to the military (see Troy's post on the other thread). Loaded ammo, when available, will be around $17-19 per box of 20. A batch of 6.8 brass was sold through distributors last month, so there is brass out there for handloading. 6.8SPC uppers in various configurations are available from multiple sources. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:09:39 AM EDT
[#11]
This is flat-out wrong, the evidence is on my reload data page linked to from the FAQ thread. With powders on the shelf today, breaking 2600fps is pretty easy in 6.8SPC. I have 3 or 4 loads that will reach into the 2620-2640fps range with a 110 or 115gr bullet, from an 18" bbl. I have heard first-hand that with some powders under development, 115gr @ 2820-2830fps is possible from an 18" barrel in 6.8SPC. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:28:22 AM EDT
[#12]
I stand corrected, I was going by memory.Remington's website lists 2800 fps from a 24" barrel. Subtracting 6-8" barrel length gets right down to around 2600 fps. At the same time I recall some early production ammo not being that stout. I'm not talking the earliest production either, that was way off, but supposedly the later production versions were still a little short of published numbers. As reloading data and new powders becomes available you very well could see a boost, which would be great. But remember, these lighter weight bullets don't have the highest BC's and are primarily designed for varmint hunting. If you are talking hunting, the .270 Winchester established it's reputation using 130 grain bullets. I would suspect reloading data using that bullet weight will become available, but I wouldn't be surprised to see velocity drop off another 100 fps due to the increased weight. Maybe the best performance would be obtained shooting something like a lighter weight GS Custom (South African specialty hunting bullet) all-copper bullet -- you'd still get good terminal performance but the reduced weight would allow higher initial velocity and better trajectory across standard hunting ranges. Don't get me wrong, I'm not badmouthing the 6.8 SPC, I'm just cautioning for anyone to become familar with it's capabilities, especially taking into account various barrel lengths, and make your decisions accordingly. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:31:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Who can tell us how much faster the 6.5 is than the 6.8 then?
How do some typical BC differ for the two calibers? |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 9:55:00 AM EDT
[#14]
from the threads i've read, the only advantage 6.8 has is its bullet start to tumble about a foot before the grendel. not a huge consideration on deer. i'll get a grendel if they manage to survive a couple of years. someone wanna post a link to the afj article on blackwater?
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:38:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Actually, the preproduction stuff in the white box (which had the powder "clumping" problem) shoots 2700fps +/- 25fps form my 18" barrel.
The 110 and 115gr bullets have BC's similar to 75-77gr 223 or 150gr 308, in other words, 0.340 - 0.40. Don't expect the 130gr bullets to work well, if at all, in 6.8SPC. They just take up too much case capacity. You might be able to make 2500fps from a 20" barrel with a 130, but it wouldn't fit in a 6.8/PRI magazine. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:41:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Thanks for all the replies guys. I will only be shooting deer and what not out to 300 meters max so I think ill go with a 16'' 6.8 rifle. Also there is a ballistics chart for 5.56, 6.8, 308 and 6.5 grendel at www.65grendel.com
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:46:35 AM EDT
[#17]
Barnes used to make a 100gr X bullet (discontinued in 2002) and a 120gr X (discontinued in 2003). I think the 100gr would be an excellent choice for game. It ought to have terminal effects more similar to a conventional 120-125gr bullet, but will have a higher MV. I have a stash of these I plan to test out. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 10:52:02 AM EDT
[#18]
That's interesting. The few things I read indicated numbers were off. Your data is promising.
And that's the rub. If the round is going to be marketed as being a dual-purpose round, with medium/light big game hunting potential, then they're going to have to laod it with big game bullets. Not necessarily controlled expansion stuff, but just some standard softpoints, e.g., Remington Core-Lokt, Hornady Interlock, Speer softpoints, Sierra Gameking, etc. All of those come in 130 grains or heavier. I checked out Barns website expecting to see a lighter weight TSX or something of that ilk -- no such luck. They too started at 130 grains. The only company I know of that markets lighter weight stuff is GS Custom, but those are pricey, and since they are all copper, with a multiple-ringed shank, they are long for their weight. Still, I have no problem believing that they wouldn't perfrom on game if you get the velocity up into the 2600-2800 fps realm. I wonder if anyone has plans to offer 6.8 SPC in a bolt action rifle with a longer mag which would allow a longer OAL to accomodate 130 grainers. As you pointed out, mag depth/length becomes a limiting factor when trying to work with the AR platform. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:18:54 AM EDT
[#19]
You don't need 3000fps, or 130gr or heavier bullets to slay deer - even large deer. Heavy and slow .30-30 is a perfect deer round. On the other extreme, a 85-90gr bullet from a 243Win does the job too. The 6.8SPC is pretty close to the 257 Roberts, which is a perfect deer round. The 6.8SPC is right in that range with a 90gr at probably 2900fps, to a 120gr at maybe 2550fps. If we go by the production ammo I've seen, the standard load is a 115gr at 2700fps. I'm loading the 110gr VMAX to 2630fps with off the shelf powders today. Remember that the faster a bullet impacts, the more it will expand and/or fragment and the less it will penetrate (FMJ excepted). And the slower a bullet impacts, the less it will expand and/or frafment and the more it will penetrate.
This misses the entire point of 6.8SPC, in my opinion, which is to fit in a 223-length action (shorter than a "short" action). If you can load long, you might as well use 7-08 or 308. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:35:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Better yet, a 260 Remington. I have a M70 HP match rifle in that caliber and the thing is a HAMMER. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:36:55 AM EDT
[#21]
By the way, here is the 6.8SPC FAQ: demigod.org/~zak/68faq
Here is my 6.8SPC load data: demigod.org/~zak/68loads |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 11:38:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Indeed. For target, I'd go 260 for the BC; for killing large things, I'd use 7-08 or 308 just because heavier bullets are available. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 12:27:22 PM EDT
[#23]
smithy.... your requirement is almost exactly what i want... i don't know anything more than you... now that the aimpoint 3x thingy is out it may change the way i approch my next build
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Posted: 10/5/2004 12:37:43 PM EDT
[#24]
6.5mm Grendel a 300 yd cartridge, lol. Please enlighten me as to how you came to this conclusion. 
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:30:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Ballistics Page I'm assuming 300 yds for a typical 120 grain bullet. Velocity drops off to around 2000 fps which is a good threshold for reliable expansion. Retained energy is around 1200 ft lbs, which again is a pretty well accepted standard for deer-sized game. I'm talking softpoints here, not V-Max varmint bullets or OTM's. 110-120 grains may work fine against humans or against paper targets at long range, but for a hunting load, required terminal performance is something different. You may be able to extend that a bit, but not much. I'm curious, did you think my 300 yd threshold was giving the cartridge too much credit, or not enough? |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:40:50 PM EDT
[#26]
257 Roberts is pushing right on the edge of 3000 fps with a bullet that has higher sectional density. Stubby .277 bullets, in the weights you list and featuring varmint or match construction, won't penetrate as much. What this cartridge needs is a good 110-120 grain controlled expansion bullet that can be driven to 2700-2800 fps. Failing that, a standard softpoint (Hornady Interlock, Speer Hot Core, Sierra Gameking) would be a good addition. My point is the ballistic potential is there but the proper bullets don't exist. I certainly don't think V-Max's or OTM's are a viable option when we are talking deer as the intended target. For humans and paper they work great, but a hunter has an ethical obligation to use a bullet designed for a quick and humane kill. Varmint weight .277s aren't the answer. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:40:55 PM EDT
[#27]
That's not true any longer. Medesha is reaming chambers and assembling uppers. Competition Shooting Sports appears to be building custom uppers as well. There may be even more sources now, those are just the two others that I've noticed.
The issue is that if you try to use long (high BC) bullets in the 6.8 SPC, they have to be seated deeply into the case and use up much needed powder capacity. The 6.5 Grendel has a shorter, but fatter case which allows longer bullets (but results in lower magazine capacity for any given sized magazine). |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:48:12 PM EDT
[#28]
There is a 110gr Sierra Pro-Hunter (#1810), and the two Barnes bullets I mentioned previously. People need to understand what 6.8SPC is. It's not a replacement for 308, 7RM, 50BMG. It's not 270Win. It was developed for superior terminal effects in a M4-sized package. Thus,the bullets available now are either left over from 270Win, or are specifically designed for 6.8 in its original roles. If there's something you want to do with it, go start experimenting, or calling ammunition manufacturers. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 1:48:50 PM EDT
[#29]
I stand corrected. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:00:24 PM EDT
[#30]
At realistic ranges (300- yards) both cartridges are adequate.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:07:45 PM EDT
[#31]
I missed the Pro-Hunter offering. Looks like that's the sole offering from any mfg. As you pointed out earlier, Barnes stopped producing the lighter weight stuff. That's what I was calling for in my earlier post, something along those weights with that terminal performance. the only thing that approaches this is the GS Custom offering -- when I ordered mine years ago it took upwards of a month to get them and they were pricey.
Absolutely agree. I would only add that terminal effects were spec'd against humans. Performance against deer-sized game, whether originally considered or just an afterthought, hasn't been really accounted for. I'm surprised they aren't offering appropriate ammo for it.
Absolutely agree again. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:16:29 PM EDT
[#32]
You can still find the 100 and 120gr Barnes, if you look around. I found 7 boxes of the 100gr at a local shop. That's more than enough for a lifetime of hunting. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:36:23 PM EDT
[#33]
So a .308 is realistically only a 300yrd cartridge? |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 2:40:11 PM EDT
[#34]
For ethical kills on game, a better question is, are you are 300yard shooter? FWIW, I'd much rather choose 7RM or 300WM for clean kills on large game beyond 300 yards, than anything 308-length or smaller. -z |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:06:28 PM EDT
[#35]
I wouldn't be willing to take a 300 + yard shot at a deer as it would be unethical, but a 500 yrd groundhog with a Bushy Varminter I wouldn't think twice about. My question was in regards to the maximum "effective" range of the Grendel. So you're saying that neither a .308 nor a 6.5 Grendel is capable of fullfilling a light sniper role effectively over 300yards? That is what I was getting at.
and to add: Yes, I'm more then capable of shooting 300+ yards So basically there's not enough penetration over 300+ Yards for large game? No I wasn't planning on going Elk hunting with my Grendel, just getting educated.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:17:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Maybe if I can get some hunting ammo and a 6.8 by this November I'll take it to Wisconsin and hunt with it. Rare to find a shot past 100m in the north woods.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:18:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Let me repeat: Don't equate light sniping, whose terminal performance requirements are dictated by performance in humans, with hunting deer-sized game, whose terminal performance are dictated by taking it reliably, quickly and humanely. Two different scenarios. Also, getting back to your earlier question, looking at Hornady's website is interesting. They have several .308 offerings, split across their standard Interlock boattail bullets (150 and 165 grain), some loads featuring high BC SST loads, and their proprietry Light Magnum line which allows them to achieve about 100 fps additional starting velocity while staying within SAAMI pressure guidelines. The standard offerings fall below my above stated thresholds around the 350 yd point. The SST's and/or LM offereings add about 100 more yds to the equation. But realize that a rifle zeroed for 200 yds, while only about 8.5/9.0" low at 300, is about 24" low at 400. Range estimation becomes critical. If you decide to zero for 300, then your going to be pretty high at intermediate ranges and going to have to hold under. That just seems strange but it could be done. That's why scope mfg's are starting to push ballistic dot reticules in their hunting scopes, to allow for holdover and some help in range estimation. At that point it's no longer hunting IMHO, it's deer sniping, but that's an alltogether different topic. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:26:42 PM EDT
[#38]
I reread your post and realized you were referring to large game specifically after I posted the question, just figured I'd let it ride to see your response since I don't hunt with a rifle. Shotguns only for deer hunting here. Anway, I learned something new in regards to effective range on large game with the mentioned calibers. Thanx for the lesson.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:29:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Deer sniping is fun
 Seriously, eliminate all the variables you can, to make for a clean shot. Finding game is a hunt. I love to stalk. But I will use any tool I can to make my shot clean and effective. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:38:31 PM EDT
[#40]
If I'm playing a long-range game, I want as much muzzle velocity and the highest BC I can get and still carry the rifle. Realistically, this means 7 Mag or one of the high-volume 6.5's (e.g. 6.5-284 at minimum).
I don't want to shoot at game beyond about 300 yards. At 400 yards, a 10mph wind is about 1 foot off with 308. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 3:55:26 PM EDT
[#41]
EXACTLY what do you want to do with the cartridge?
If you want to shoot paper at 700-800M, then go with the Grendel. Same goes if you want to shoot larger game in the 250M area (longer than I'd want to shoot). If you're looking for a defensive cartridge that will shoot accurately to 600M, go with 6.8. If you plan on taking light to medium sized game in the 200-250M range, I'd say that the 6.8 would be a good choice. IIRC, the shortest Grendel barrel length available is 18"... Although that would be preferable to the 16" for shooting at long range. Something else to think about... To shoot at the kind of ranges you want to shoot at, you'll need a quality built gun. An M/A parts gun will not be as accurate as you are wanting. And for a light sniper rifle, it depends on usage. For LE usage, you're not going to take a 300M shot on an individual. There's no if's, and's, or but's about it. A CNS hit is the only thing that will stop a man reliably, and there are too many variables at that range. You want a maneuverable 25-200M gun. The 6.8 (in a good AR, or an LTR format) will fill that nicely. If someone develops a load for the Grendel that exhibits optimal penetration it would make an EXCELLENT choice. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:18:27 PM EDT
[#42]
All I am looking for is a rifle that will give me, if I do my part, consistent hits on medium sized game from 25-200 or 250 thats it. I dont feel confident in myself to even take a shot past that range, and risk the deer getting away or not making a clean kill. Short to not quite medium range hunting with decent accuarcy.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:19:33 PM EDT
[#43]
I didnt expect this post to develope like this but I think its a great discussion. thanks for the replies guys.
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:22:35 PM EDT
[#44]
If you can hit in the vitals, 6.8 ought to be enough. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 4:53:50 PM EDT
[#45]
It's nice to find a friendly thread on a question that lists the 6.5 and 6.8 together. As many of you have clarified, the requirements for paper and hunting are vastly different. This becomes most apparent when using a new cartridge with velocity performance that under achieves available bullet construction. This was hammered home to me when shooting TC Contenders, and to some extent my 458 Socom. I too am on the fence regarding a mid caliber AR, as I fully intend it to be a deer and antelope hunting gun.
With that said, I will add something about the 6.5. While I have no experience with the Grendel, my experiences and those of many other Contender shooters bears witness to the fact that the appropriate 6.5 caliber bullet driven to velocities at or below the Grendel levels, works wonders on game of varying size. We could argue lots of things like BC's or SD's, or whether or not the manufactures will get around to accomodating 6.8 hunters, but the bottom line is that the 6.5 has a proven track record in the hunting arena. IMHO, just someting to consider. Craig |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 5:32:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Just some added info:
A couple of Federal Game Wardens have been using 6.8mm SPC ARs for culling deer for almost 18 months now (yes, since before most of us even knew about 6.8mm SPC development). They've been using the 110gr VMax bullet. One of the Wardens reports that the 6.8mm SPC is "the deer killin'est round he's ever used." -Troy |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:23:29 PM EDT
[#47]
If you can contact the warden, ask him if he would have confidence using that bullet on a 225 lb buck quartering away at 125 yards or so. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:32:04 PM EDT
[#48]
where can I get 5 round magazines for the 6.8 spc?
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:35:17 PM EDT
[#49]
No fives, does your state require them for hunting? Try a blocked 10 round PRI mag, or a ten round 5.56 mag, or a 9 or 7 round 5.56 mag. |
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Posted: 10/5/2004 6:40:24 PM EDT
[#50]
yeah, my state requires them.
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