9/17/03 Dies have been shipped to most who placed orders, and some have received their dies.

6/23/03 Order has been placed. 8 weeks expected delivery time.
That puts delivery around 8/18/03, and leaves plenty of time for load development before Deer Season!

6/20/03 Group Purchase is now CLOSED
6/6/03:
Current Group Purchase Price is $55.50 per set DELIVERED. The Due Date for getting in on the Group purchase is your payment must be received by pharumpcaveman on or before 6/20!
See page 7 of this thread.
4-die custom set with 2 bullet seating stems!

I just recently ordered my 458 Socom Upper from http://www.teppojutsu.com/ I have a few weeks to wait before I can experience the thunder.

I was wondering why Lee wasn't selected for the custom Die Vendor. Does anyone have an opinion? About the only reason I can think is the posted max wait time from Lee for custom dies is up to 180 days. I have used Lee equipment almost exclusively, and have been Very happy with all of it.

The custom dies are a $150 setup charge then $27.98 per set for a 3-die set (Resize, Bullet Seater, and Factory Crimp)
If 25 sets are ordered then the $150 setup charge is waived.

http://www.leeprecision.com/faq/index.cgi
Then 'Custom Services'
Then 'Steel Rifle Die Sets'

Is anyone interested in participating in another Group purchase for 458 SOCOM Lee Dies?

The list price from CH4D is $136, and the Group purchase was $96.
With 2 other interested people (besides myself), the per-set price is $77.98.

If we get 25+ orders, then price is ONLY $27.98 each plus shipping!!!

Considering the fact that I have been waiting on my upper since early December (and don't have it yet) and almost that long for the brass, 180 days wouldn't have bothered me.
A buddy of mine got his right away and the dies he got suck. That is the nicest thing I can say about them. They not only don't work with heavy bullets, they are of poor quality. You can see the poor quality with the naked eye. And they cost as much as a single stage press. I can assure you that I will never do business with that company again. If I knew they were the only ones producing dies for a given caliber, I would not buy that caliber. The dies arn't worth $10, let alone over $100. They are simply put, a rip off. A pure and simple ripoff.
I would definitely be willing to be in on a group buy from Lee. Put me down right now.

I'm in ........

I can swing it.

I'm in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Should we send them the three or four most popular [and maybe one esoteric] bullets for proper seating?

Dave S

BTW, CH4D, EAT SHIT AND DIE....YOU COCKBREATH BASTARDS.

I'd be in for a GP set if we can get them at $27.98. Hell yea.

Regarding CH4D. I know there have been complaints. I have issues as well. But I don't see where ANYONE has attempted to resolve their problem [b]with[/b] the company.

At least give them the chance to correct any problems. If they don't stand behind their product, then flame them.

Dave has been very helpful in answering my questions so far. And I'm an annoying newbie that confuses "rim" with "mouth", so its got to be frustrating to talk to me... (as always...)

--LS

I tried to resolve it and I got an attitude with a half hearted attempt to fix it . I'm not going to flame them but I'm done with e'm . We should have gone this route to begin with . This has been the only part of this venture I am not happy with .Come on guys the more the better . .. Oh by the way   . Anyone want to buy some 458 dies from CH-4D ???   [b]"Should we send them the three or four most popular [and maybe one esoteric] bullets for proper seating?"[/b] ....I think it would be a good idea.

Count me in if you can get this thing going.

At $28 I'm in.......who is the QB on this?

We need to make sure to send them a bullet in 3, 4, and 500 grain.

MartytW could likely pick which ones he sees the most off.  Maybe "frisco"?

Let's see who steps up to run this gem.....[jump]

I'm in.  I've got time to wait for my upper, so that's not a problem.

Newbie loader weighning in here. Will Lee dies work in a Rock Chucker? If so count me in for a set as well. Someone needs to ask them to make the seating stem a bit deeper to allow for more tapered bullets though....

Sold, I'm in also, and I don't even re-load yet!

I'm in, too.  Can never have too many dies!

We HAVE GOT TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCED LOADER OF 458 SOCOM handle this buy.....IMHO.

Otherwise some of the topics may not get addressed correctly.

Anyone willing to do the coordinating?  Frisco? MartytW?  DaveS?

Anyone?

For that price, I'm in.

I still have yet to buy reloading equipment, but I'd rather have dies that work well for a newbie than my CH4D's that seem to be getting bad reviews.

Since I did not get in on the CH4D dies I would GLADLY be in on this. I agree that someone that knows all the intrinsics of the .458 SOCOM should handle the details and GP.

I skipped on the CH4D dies; the impression I got at the time seemed as if they were doing it a little off the cuff, without refinement. I had a bad feeling for some reason, like never buying the first year of a new model car, especially when the company is Yugo. I trust Lee dies a whole lot more.

[b]And the price leaves no room for argument![/b]

[red][size=5][b]!!!!COUNT ME IN!!!!!![/b][/size=5][/red]

Ok guys I just got off the phone with John Lee and here is the scoop . If we can get 15 orders together he will give us 1 resize /decap and expand die ,1 seat die and a factory crimp die for 70$ !! If we can swing 25 orders it would be 42$ .It's a bit more than SPONGEMAN quoted due to the factory crimp die but I think we will be glad we got it . I went into the problems we were having with the brand XXX but before we get into the whole seating stem issue he needs chamber dimensions . Marty Ter Weeme your help is required on this please .

This is from MartyW's Coment board:



Lee should have everything they need... or am I missing something here?

--LS

Interesting that:
15 X $70 = $1050
and
25 X $42 = $1050

Buy 15, get 10 for Free?

I wonder what factors changed the posted price on the web and a recent (4/11/03) e-mail that I received from Lee:

"We do not make dies for that cartridge.  Two die rifle sets consist of a
steel sizing die (requires case lubrication) and a seater  crimper
die.  Cost for a custom two die set consists of a $130 setup charge plus
the cost of the applicable dies.  In the case of a two die set, this would
be an additional $14.98.

Three die rifle sets consist of a steel sizing die (requires case
lubrication), a seater crimper die and a factory crimp die.  Cost for a
custom  three die set consists of a $150 setup charge plus the cost of the
applicable dies.  In the case of a three die set, this would be an
additional $27.98.

Lead time on both sets can be as long as 180 days as a new reamer must be
made for your cartridge.  The setup cost is a one time per order charge,
therefore additional die sets requested in the same order bear only the
applicable cost of the dies.  If 25 die sets are ordered, we waive the
setup cost.


At 08:20 PM 4/10/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Do you have the 'Wildcat' cartridge 458 SOCOM in your list of Reamers?
>I would be interested in a 3 die rifle set for that caliber.
>Also the case trimmer pilot for that Caliber. I think a standard #2 shell
>holder would work (I could be wrong)
>
>Thanks For your time,
"

[b]"Lee should have everything they need... or am I missing something here?"[/b]      Having never made any dies I could not say . All I can tell you is what the man told me . It would be great if Marty could just call him and give him the info he needs to make this happen . John Lee (262)637-3075 . Then we could have a nice die set that works instead of some half ass frankin dies .

I'm in!!!!

I'm in, as long as we get a good universal seating die, possibly with multiple stems.  I'm confused about the difference in the price quouted by
pahrumpcaveman and spongeman66, though....

This is 444 at Pahrump Caveman's house.

I went over to Pahrumpcaveman's house and went ofter the information he got from John Lee. Mike has been loading the .458 Socom for several months and has used the CH4D dies for several hundred reloads.  I don't like to do things half assed and I have been waiting on this upper and brass for a long time and after that wait I am not going to try to make due with some bullshit. I am not going to quibble over nickels and dimes and I am not going to argue about how Lee arrived at their price. If we can't get this together in short order, I am going to order a set myself. They will be around $150 but at least I will have something that works.

For a 3-die set, I'm in at $70 OR anything less!

If the internet prices are correct....
You can have Lee custom make as many different bullet seating stems as you can find bullet designs for $8 each.

If we pay extra for a few bullet seating stems, count me in for one of each!

I'm in...with some help I could probably help coordinate if needed.


Frisco

so the Lee dies own CH4D?

im in if we get the 25+, i cant afford $150!

i havent tried my ch4d dies yet (i dont have a reloading set up), but my uncle has been reloading for years. is there any way to return the [b]unused[/b] dies to ch4d? im thinking ebay or EE if not.

I'm in on a lee set.  I'd be in for a set with as many seaters as Marty thinks is useful and the trimmer stem too!  Maybe we'd save a buck per seater and the trim stem if we included them all in the sets.

I have a set of the CH4D dies but I haven't been able to do anything without the brass (which will be here this evening).  They look good but the seater looks pretty long.  If there's anything wrong with the set I can't that imagine they wouldn't deal with it.  They've been highly regarded for a loooong time.

We'll see, I guess,

Cyrus  

F'it I'm in for $70 or less......

In Dave's (CH4d) defense:  WHen I first designed the .458 SOCOM, I was guided by fellow wildcatters at www.shooters.com "wildcat" forum.  CH Tool and Die came highly recommended for custom dies (wildcats) as did RCBS (HDS) but the wait time at RCBS was too long.  Lee was never mentioned IIRC.  So I went with CH4D.  The set I received, as well as the sets for all subsequent rounds developed here, have been just fine in quality and Dave has worked with me on the designs.  The seater was designed to accomodate the Barnes 300 gr X SPITZER bullet, but I have not had any issues with the other bullets, other than the 400 gr flat nose variety getting deformed slightly.

Dave has supplied numerous sets of dies in 458 SOCOM since that time, and we had not heard a single complaint from anyone.

So I do not know what happened here on the Die GP, but I agree that looking at the pictures Longshot sent me of his dies, there is a QC issue to say the least.

I would suggest dealing with CH4D to see if they will rectify any issues, again, Dave has worked with me and has been quite willing to go the extra mile in the past.

That said, the Lee question.  Lee should have the drawings, but if not, I would be happy to send them drawings.  Please send the Lee contact information to my Email address, so I can retrieve it at the office during the day.  I will talk with Lee and see what he needs.  I want you guys to be happy with this round, so I will do what I can.

On a side note, I do wish to extend a heartfelt thanks for you guys bearing with me given that the wait has gotten to be FAR greater than ever intended.  The parts issue has been a real disaster, extensions right now are in such tight supply that neither DPMS, Brownells, RRA  or Bushy can get me any.  I got the last 14 I could scrape up.  I will be getting these uppers out as fast as I can to get them in your hands so you can be ready for the upcoming season ....

A positive glimmer:  I spoke with CorBon, apparently they didn't realize the new brass was formed, and as such, they have 6,000 Remington JHP bullets ready to load.  And they are looking into loading the 500 gr subsonic loads if enough interest exists (we have some LEO interest that got that going)

Marty

Well NO SHIT?!  Um, yeah I think we might be interested in having a supporting staff at CORBON producing a few loads.  I think we have had everybody under the sun email these donkeys.  I emailed them several, several times asking if they were going to expand their offerings.

"Not at this time, but never say never." was the response.

Are they really SLOW to pick up on interest?  OR just cautious?

Their 300gr load would be good if they could get it up the FPS scale a bit.  The 500gr would be awesome.

Marty, I understand the need to give CH4 the opportunity to rectify the situation, but in comparison with other dies I have, are the othr dies they produce as roughly finished on the inside as these? The seating stem issue aside, I feel alot of the issues with stuck cases are due to the inside of the dies not being polished or given a finer final pass when machined.

I did not get in on the GP for these and at 130+ for a set of custom dies that they admittedly told me they had just had a fresh run on you would think the inside finish would be a bit smoother.

Like I said before, I am fresh to reloading but when I compare these dies to my 2 die RCBS 308 set that I bought for 28 bucks it just makes you wonder.

Even though these work I would still be in for a set of Lee dies.

Marty ,  As you can see from the picture I have more issues than just the seat stem itself ... Yesterday 444 came over and we were looking at these dies. I noticed that one issue I thought I had created myself by altering the stem with a Dremel was not so . As you can see the stem does not even screw into the die straight !! Thus the crooked bullet seating and the fact that the other stem would not screw into this die as it was a little wider .  To be quite frank ,overall the dies suck . I called them once about the stem being to long and it was like pulling teeth to get another . Instead of listening to my complaint he started off by telling me how many dies he has sold in this caliber and has had no complaints .I suspect the lack of complaints is due to the fact that we have been waiting on brass and have not used them ...If Dave is willing to come one here and address our problems I am willing to listen to him . At 130$ a set I am more than unhappy considering I have spent less than 20$ on dies and they have been nicer . As for the Lee dies , I would like them and anything you could do to help would be great . As I said ,I spoke to Mr.Lee and he needs measurements . He sounded interested in the project and had never heard of the caliber . If they ended up offering this die set it would only help the caliber along . I will send the info to your e-mail as you request . Thanks Mike ...........................................[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=11124[/img]

Mike, nice work on the picture. Your die looks a hell of alot smoother on the inside than mine does. Did you polish it by chance?

Has anyone else tried polishing these things?

I might try if someone else has had success with this as I will be stuck with these dies until the Lee GP comes to light.

[size=3][red][b]I'm in for a set of Lee dies![/b][/red][/size=3]

It looks like the $150 setup fee is one-time charge which could be divided among us if we have less than 25 participants, correct?

Pots,

I'm fairly happy with my CH4D dies, but here's what I did to them:

1) used the rounded, cone-shaped grinding stone in my dremel, I ground-off the sharp edge on the inside of my seating stem.  Then, I put a felt polishing wheel in the dremel, and used Flitz Metal polish to clean it up.  Please note that I used almost no pressure with the grinding stone and I kept the dremel moving in the hopes of not getting the stem too out-of-round.

2) used the dremel and a large felt polishing wheel with Flitz to polish the inside of the FL sizing die.  I wrapped the nut on the dremel with masking tape, because trying to get deep into the die with the dremel requires a seriously steading hand.  I was wishin' I had a lathe for this step.  Also, I kept the polishing wheel moving around and I stopped often to make sure a piece of grit didn't start etching the inside of the die at 5000 rpm...

3) I put the expander ball stem in my cordless drill, and polished the heck out of the expander ball with Flitz.

After all this, I've had no problems with the dies.  I use spray-on case lube, and haven't had one come close to sticking yet.  Due to having one of the long stems, I do have to back the seater die out farther than I do with other die sets, but everything still works.  (I haven't loaded any of the long 500gr bullets yet, so my experience is limited).

Even though I'm satisfied with the CH4D dies, I still want in on the Lee die GP.  If for nothing else than to compare the quality...

I think the fact that we all already have dies for this caliber and are willing to shell out more $$$ for another set says allot about the level of dissatisfaction .  

Just curious what you guys think... looks like if about 1/4 inch were cut off the end of the seating stem and the thing was polished well, it would be just about in spec.  Am I totally confused, or does this make sense?

Thnaks NoPlay, I will give it a shot tonight and see what I can do. Like I said it did seem easier after I got the first couple of cases through it. Also I had a few of the reformed 50AE cases Marty was kind enough to let me have when I met him at the range to pick up my upper. I reloaded these just to say I used the decap and these went through very easy.

I'll still try to polish though as I am not fond of having to swinigle the stuck cases out.

Would it be possible for me to order just a crimp die??

I have two sets of CH4D 458 dies - one TiN coated and they work great. I got these when Tromix first came out with this caliber a couple of years ago.

One word about the CH4D / Lee thing. I've had MANY problems (50AE comes to mind) with Lee dies being rough and unuseable out of the box. I could send them back to Lee as an example of what we don't want. I have gone to the CH4D dies for most of my dies. The problems can crop up anytime.

I count 20 so far . Five more and we will be in at 42$each !!!

For clarity, I'm in if $45 or less. (ideally, $27.98 per set as originally quoted)

Anything more and I'll just stick with my CH4D's.

I don't need perfect, just functional.

--LS

Since I have been the most foul mouthed about the bastards......

Put me in for two (2) sets and all three (3) or four (four) seating stems[?] for each set.

Dave S

Now, do we need only four (4) more? hehehehehhheeeehhehehheeheheheehehe

I would consider owning 2 sets of dies if we don't get 25 unique individuals...

buy one for $70, get another for $14...

I would probably sell it on the Equipment Exchange...

Actually, Marty should consider doing what the Beowulf guys seem to have done....Don't they sell dies from Lee for $49????

http://alexanderarms.com/beoammo.html

I wonder if the difference in price is the difference between a 3-die set and a 4-die set? The thought crossed my mind when I took a close look at the Beowulf dies....
pahrumpcaveman I never doubted you! I apologize if my tone came across that way...

What may be a better work around is to have commitment from 25 people (or more) to cough up the fee to build the dies.  (150/25 = $6 per person).

That money goes to Lee to make the dies, once finished, then each individual can order their own dies (2 or 3 die set, the 150 designs the 3) and pay for their own shipping.


Thoughts?

I don't mind working with Marty and Lee to get the dies completed.

frisco, if we each ordered separately, we'd each have to pay the $150 setup charge. Here's what the website says:

"The setup cost is a one time [red]per order[/red] charge, therefore additional die sets requested in the [red]same order[/red] bear only the applicable cost of the dies."

Time to get this thing rolling.  Who's gonna act as point man on this and collect the money, deal with Lee, and distribute the dies?

Looking for a show of hands... [:)]

Ok . I have spoke to Marty via e-mail and he is sending the info to Lee . I am hoping he will chime in here and fill everyone in on the progress .When I spoke to Lee he basically wanted to do the same thing we just did with the brass and send all the dies to one person for them to distribute . I am willing to handle it as long as I don't end up getting screwed . But if someone else wants to handle it that is just fine by me too ,I just want the dies in my hands as soon as possible .When I have confirmation that Lee has the dimensions we can proceed .

Go with it...I would suggest we share the different style of bullets with lee to make sure we have the right seating stems.

Can we get an estimate on what the dies will cost and the additional stems? Im in for the dies but I want to know what my options are on the stems.

As for the stems , I was going to send Lee three bullets . A Remington 300 gr hp , Remington 405 gr sp and a Barnes 300 gr spitzer . I think those should cover all bases . I think they should be able to make one stem work on the 300 gr hp and the 405 sp and one more for the spitzer . I will work with them more on this once the ball is rolling .