User Panel
Just wanted to say thanks for the awesome post. I was starting from the ground up and the info was invaluable. As you can tell from my whopping post count I am a newb so I did want to ask a couple of questions that I either haven't seen addressed or might have missed.
I was wondering the best way to troubleshoot latency. I went with the ACTI TCM-7811 (ironically discussed a few posts above) and have everything configured but when using IPCAM viewer have almost 10 sec of latency when I am watching live feeds. I also was very interested in the DI/O addition of the PIR. While reading up on that I found that these cameras also have the ability to add audio in/out that way and I am now thinking it would be cool to be able to communicate at the front door (not record). I have found a microphone that can be added on but not easy way of adding a speaker. Would I be better off upgrading to a Mobotix cam that has all that already on board or has someone found a good way of adding a microphone/speaker? Again (and this isn't just buttering everyone up to get answers for my questions) thanks. |
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I'd like a suggestion on what IP Cam software to go with. My Toshiba IK-WB16As came with free Toshiba software but it will not stop recording once it sees motion, even if it is staring at a wall when I wave my hand in front of it. I have played with the settings to no end and had no luck. I have send a message to Toshiba tech support... I know that the motion detection is also part of the camera firmware, so I don't really know who is the culprit here. IP cam software is very expensive!!!
I just want some basic software that will record on motion. Email would be a plus. I don't want some freeware that is going to upload pictures of my wife and me running around the house naked, however! |
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Originally Posted By Chadnutz: I'd like a suggestion on what IP Cam software to go with. My Toshiba IK-WB16As came with free Toshiba software but it will not stop recording once it sees motion, even if it is staring at a wall when I wave my hand in front of it. I have played with the settings to no end and had no luck. I have send a message to Toshiba tech support... I know that the motion detection is also part of the camera firmware, so I don't really know who is the culprit here. IP cam software is very expensive!!! I just want some basic software that will record on motion. Email would be a plus. I don't want some freeware that is going to upload pictures of my wife and me running around the house naked, however! TGM did a write up on this.; http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_46/343101_How_To____PC_based_Security_camera_software.html |
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<script>alert('pwned')</script>
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I have been trying all evening to get my Port Forwarding done on my router so I can view my camera over the internet or on my phone. I can view it on the internal network, but not from outside the network. Is there an easy way or better instructions?
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Originally Posted By jake-cutter:
I have been trying all evening to get my Port Forwarding done on my router so I can view my camera over the internet or on my phone. I can view it on the internal network, but not from outside the network. Is there an easy way or better instructions? What model router? |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Its a Verizon Westell g90-6100. I went through Westell's site and it directed me to Verizon. I can log into my IP address and get to the port forwarding settings. But from there it does not seem to take. The camera is set at port 6005 and
I have the Protocol set to "tcp", Global PortStart at "6005", Global Port End at "6006", Base HostPort at "6005", Direction is set to "In", Port Direction is set to "DST" |
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Originally Posted By jake-cutter:
Its a Verizon Westell g90-6100. I went through Westell's site and it directed me to Verizon. I can log into my IP address and get to the port forwarding settings. But from there it does not seem to take. The camera is set at port 6005 and I have the Protocol set to "tcp", Global PortStart at "6005", Global Port End at "6006", Base HostPort at "6005", Direction is set to "In", Port Direction is set to "DST" I'm not seeing that type of config page as I'm researching your router (some of those provider-provided routers are garbage). Is there any chance you can put your modem/router into "Bridge" mode and put an actual D-link/Linksys/etc router behind it? ETA: can you post some screenshots of your router config page? (Edit out most of your external IP address for OPSEC) ETA2: Try this first. Here are a couple of links that may help you. PortForward.com has a page that shows you how to forward the port for an Axis camera... you can simply change the port numbers for whatever device you're attempting to view. Page is here If you want to put your modem into bridge mode, and use a real router behind it, you can try this support page from Verizon |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
I own a self-storage facility and am wanting to set up cameras there. My question is, How do I keep the main unit from experiencing too much temperature fluctuation?
Is there some type of climate controlled set up I can put the main unit in? In Nebraska the temp will fluctuate from -15F to 105F. |
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Proud Member of Team Ranstad
Alea iacta est |
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
[ I'm not seeing that type of config page as I'm researching your router (some of those provider-provided routers are garbage). Is there any chance you can put your modem/router into "Bridge" mode and put an actual D-link/Linksys/etc router behind it? ETA: can you post some screenshots of your router config page? (Edit out most of your external IP address for OPSEC) ETA2: Try this first. Here are a couple of links that may help you. PortForward.com has a page that shows you how to forward the port for an Axis camera... you can simply change the port numbers for whatever device you're attempting to view. Page is here If you want to put your modem into bridge mode, and use a real router behind it, you can try this support page from Verizon I got it to work. Once I updated the firmware on the camera and changed the port to 100 everything is working. I am using the android app "IP Cam View" basic. Once I get another camera, I will upgrade to the full verision unless you recommend another app. |
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Originally Posted By jake-cutter:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
[ I'm not seeing that type of config page as I'm researching your router (some of those provider-provided routers are garbage). Is there any chance you can put your modem/router into "Bridge" mode and put an actual D-link/Linksys/etc router behind it? ETA: can you post some screenshots of your router config page? (Edit out most of your external IP address for OPSEC) ETA2: Try this first. Here are a couple of links that may help you. PortForward.com has a page that shows you how to forward the port for an Axis camera... you can simply change the port numbers for whatever device you're attempting to view. Page is here If you want to put your modem into bridge mode, and use a real router behind it, you can try this support page from Verizon I got it to work. Once I updated the firmware on the camera and changed the port to 100 everything is working. I am using the android app "IP Cam View" basic. Once I get another camera, I will upgrade to the full verision unless you recommend another app. If it's the one by Robert Chou, that's the one you want. It's actively developed, and I get updates all the time. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Originally Posted By stutzcattle:
I own a self-storage facility and am wanting to set up cameras there. My question is, How do I keep the main unit from experiencing too much temperature fluctuation? Is there some type of climate controlled set up I can put the main unit in? In Nebraska the temp will fluctuate from -15F to 105F. The computer I'm using for cameras at our shop sits in the uncontrolled portion of the shop and I have yet to have any issues, its about a year old now. It replaced a 5 year old computer that held up just fine as well, I only replaced it because we upgraded to HD cameras and the old one wasn't fast enough. The biggest problem I ever had was massive amounts of dust getting into the case that needed to be cleaned out every few weeks. If you are still worried about it, you can buy Hoffman boxes that have small AC units. They aren't cheap by any means as I believe they start around a grand. AFAIK, too much cold won't damage a computer, but you will have to worry about moisture. This may also give you ideas AC Computer Case |
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Originally Posted By ProfGAB101:
I would run a PoE cable to that mailbox and hide a cam in it pointing back at the house. something with a decent wide angle of view - or maybe double up and use 2 cams for better resolution. Do you have any recommendation on the type of camera(s) you would use in this application? I'm thinking about a small, outdoor-rated camera. Perhaps with the camera encoder (IP/POE) located remotely. So the camera(s) could be analog. I might even put the encoder in a water-tight enclosure in the ground at the base of the mailbox... You have me thinking... I really like the idea of the camera in the mailbox or mailbox post. |
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If anyone can help; it's greatly appreciated.
I touched on this issue awhile back and did not have enough details to form a good question. I bought a house last year and it has a UStec security camera mounted by the front door. The camera is connected to a splitter via a single coaxial cable that provides power and carries the video signal. The camera has a built-in modulator that allows it to be viewed on certain tv channels in the home. This is the camera I have: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/outdoorcamera.html I purchased an Axis 2401 video server on ebay thinking I could plug the coax into it and output the video to ethernet, and then see the camera's image on my phone like I can with my other ip-based cameras around the house. Everything is hooked up properly but I'm not getting any image to display through the Axis. Is this due to the modulation that this camera provides? Just wondering if any of you have run across something similar and were able to overcome it. Eventually I'll replace it with a nice IP camera, but for now, the $75 Axis video server seemed like a good cheap solution. Thanks! |
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Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
If anyone can help; it's greatly appreciated. I touched on this issue awhile back and did not have enough details to form a good question. I bought a house last year and it has a UStec security camera mounted by the front door. The camera is connected to a splitter via a single coaxial cable that provides power and carries the video signal. The camera has a built-in modulator that allows it to be viewed on certain tv channels in the home. This is the camera I have: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/outdoorcamera.html I purchased an Axis 2401 video server on ebay thinking I could plug the coax into it and output the video to ethernet, and then see the camera's image on my phone like I can with my other ip-based cameras around the house. Everything is hooked up properly but I'm not getting any image to display through the Axis. Is this due to the modulation that this camera provides? Just wondering if any of you have run across something similar and were able to overcome it. Eventually I'll replace it with a nice IP camera, but for now, the $75 Axis video server seemed like a good cheap solution. Thanks! I've never encountered one of those. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
I bought the Luxriot software with support for 4 cameras. I'll detail my setup when I patch it all up. I need to increase the size of my networking box in the closet to fit the POE switch. I have one camera set up and one that I need to set up. I'll probably buy one more to point at my truck. Here is a picture of the front porch. It looks like I may need more light. What do you think? http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/chadnutz/FrontPorch.jpg Is that a WDR camera? |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
I don't know. Toshiba IK-WB16A
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Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
I don't know. Toshiba IK-WB16A I checked the specs... no WDR. Wide dynamic range is exactly what's needed for a picture like that... it would keep that back lighting from obscuring the face of you subject. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
I can point the camera lower and that would get rid of the bright spot in the back. I'll check the angle.
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Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
I can point the camera lower and that would get rid of the bright spot in the back. I'll check the angle. Couldn't hurt... do that and maybe adding a porch light might be.enough |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
P/M sent few days ago Grayman, did you receive?
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Been mobile... will.check
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
I finally got around to getting the ACTi ACM-3701 you suggested up and running. The image quality looks great.
Edit ******** Looks great in the daylight. At night, I thought all my lights in the back yard would make it useable, but it not at all. What looks like a well lit driveway, two flood lights on the garage and a lamp post, looks almost black to the camera. Now I've got the bug and want to spend even more money on something with better night vision End Edit******** I ended up mounting it into an electrical box and double sided sticky taping that to my back door. It looks kind of goofy, and is very conspicuous, so I may move it, but that turned out to be the best possible location for the field of view I wanted. The second best spot was actually inside the house and looking out the window next to the door, but the problem with that one is that I wouldn't be able to see an image of someone just standing at the door that way. I could see who's knoncking via the motion capture pictures, but I'd rather be able to just glance at the feed. That way did have the advantage of the camera being virtually unnoticeable from outside. I'm still trying to get my arms around software for this. I'm playing around with this: http://www.bensoftware.com/securityspy/ ... which seems to be the only mac osx tailored option I've found. It was easy to set up and seems to work well, but after just a few hours I'm definitely seeing the advantage of infrared motion sensors. The image based motion detection is just too damn sensitive when looking out on a scene with lots of shadows from the trees. On a windy day like today it's pretty much worthless. Unfortunately that software seems to not have an option for adding IR motion detectors (or at least I didn't see one). Anyone know of good OSX compatible IP cam software? |
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Pick up that can.
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Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
If anyone can help; it's greatly appreciated. I touched on this issue awhile back and did not have enough details to form a good question. I bought a house last year and it has a UStec security camera mounted by the front door. The camera is connected to a splitter via a single coaxial cable that provides power and carries the video signal. The camera has a built-in modulator that allows it to be viewed on certain tv channels in the home. This is the camera I have: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/outdoorcamera.html I purchased an Axis 2401 video server on ebay thinking I could plug the coax into it and output the video to ethernet, and then see the camera's image on my phone like I can with my other ip-based cameras around the house. Everything is hooked up properly but I'm not getting any image to display through the Axis. Is this due to the modulation that this camera provides? Just wondering if any of you have run across something similar and were able to overcome it. Eventually I'll replace it with a nice IP camera, but for now, the $75 Axis video server seemed like a good cheap solution. Thanks! That camera is putting out an RF modulated signal on a TV channel. The IP server expects a composite video signal as an input. Internally the camera is taking a composite signal from the CCD and modulating it. You may be able to hack the camera to get the composite output, but that may be more trouble than it's worth. On the back of your TV the RF input is coax and the composite input is an RCA (yellow). |
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KC-10Boom: Cookies should never give one the shits.
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Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
If anyone can help; it's greatly appreciated. I touched on this issue awhile back and did not have enough details to form a good question. I bought a house last year and it has a UStec security camera mounted by the front door. The camera is connected to a splitter via a single coaxial cable that provides power and carries the video signal. The camera has a built-in modulator that allows it to be viewed on certain tv channels in the home. This is the camera I have: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/outdoorcamera.html I purchased an Axis 2401 video server on ebay thinking I could plug the coax into it and output the video to ethernet, and then see the camera's image on my phone like I can with my other ip-based cameras around the house. Everything is hooked up properly but I'm not getting any image to display through the Axis. Is this due to the modulation that this camera provides? Just wondering if any of you have run across something similar and were able to overcome it. Eventually I'll replace it with a nice IP camera, but for now, the $75 Axis video server seemed like a good cheap solution. Thanks! My guess is you might need this type of hardware - more hardware |
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Do you think I should point the camera at the door. It would result in the following:
Pros: Better camera angle to capture faces since I don't have to try to avoid intense background light. No bright background light to darken foreground images. More discrete location. Less false positive motion detection. Con: Captures the back of peoples heads if they enter through the front door and leave from somewhere else, though I will have an indoor camera. Thoughts? |
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Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
Do you think I should point the camera at the door. It would result in the following: Pros: Better camera angle to capture faces since I don't have to try to avoid intense background light. No bright background light to darken foreground images. More discrete location. Less false positive motion detection. Con: Captures the back of peoples heads if they enter through the front door and leave from somewhere else, though I will have an indoor camera. Thoughts? Most bad guys will look around (including behind them and back at the street) and scan to see if the coast is clear. Putting a camera outside, focusing on the door, isn't a bad idea... if they decide to walk away and come back, you'll have a face shot in either case. If it's the only way to get a useful image out of that camera, I'd do it. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
GrayMan,
Have you used any battery powered PIR sensors? Also where did you buy the Crow unit? |
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Originally Posted By CyberSEAL:
If anyone can help; it's greatly appreciated. I touched on this issue awhile back and did not have enough details to form a good question. I bought a house last year and it has a UStec security camera mounted by the front door. The camera is connected to a splitter via a single coaxial cable that provides power and carries the video signal. The camera has a built-in modulator that allows it to be viewed on certain tv channels in the home. This is the camera I have: http://www.broadbandutopia.com/outdoorcamera.html I purchased an Axis 2401 video server on ebay thinking I could plug the coax into it and output the video to ethernet, and then see the camera's image on my phone like I can with my other ip-based cameras around the house. Everything is hooked up properly but I'm not getting any image to display through the Axis. Is this due to the modulation that this camera provides? Just wondering if any of you have run across something similar and were able to overcome it. Eventually I'll replace it with a nice IP camera, but for now, the $75 Axis video server seemed like a good cheap solution. Thanks! In case this helps anyone in the future, I just needed to place an RF Demodulator between the camera and the Axis 2401 to get a composite video signal that the server could recognize. It works great now and is a part of my thrown-together network of cameras. Appreciate the input Desert, and brad. |
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Awesome. I've been interested in this. I have a rather large area viewable by two of my main cameras. I say 'main' because they cover the most important part of the house. The only accessible one! This is by far my nicest, but I have to clean the glass big time. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZDwBUOnidU4/UDLl8XvBZYI/AAAAAAAAL54/D6dLFpKDOSg/s640/Image.jpg This one is alright, but it has the widest viewpoint. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TmBZpd0VKYQ/UDQ00bIchGI/AAAAAAAAL68/zwdDHIj-qE4/s704/Image.jpg I'm thinking a good 160 degree IR flood in between the two would do wonders. I think you're on the right track. With an illuminator installed, you could even shut off the camera-integrated LEDs to avoid attracting bugs. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
I got an outdoor camera which looks really nice during the day buy it has these white blobs at night. I've cleaned the glass, but it did not help. Any ideas? Camera is a Toshiba IK-WB80A. P.S. I have purchased motion sensing flood lights for both sides of the garage door but they are not installed. This picture is with no lighting other than ambient + IR. http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/chadnutz/Daytime.jpg http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g399/chadnutz/WhiteBlobs.jpg It's catching the light from a nearby floodlight. This is a dome camera, correct? |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Bullet. I'll take a picture of it when I get home today.
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Originally Posted By Chadnutz:
Bullet. I'll take a picture of it when I get home today. That lens looks like it's catching some kind of reflection from a nearby light. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc |
Where is your IR flood mounted in relationship to the camera. I want to keep bugs away.
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Tennessee Squire
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TGM, something else occurred to me just now. It might be worthwhile to remove the plastic domes from each of your three IR illuminators and test their light output with and without them. Plastic that is transparent to visible light can still be a strong absorber of IR light. |
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"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend … on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless." - Jeff Snyder
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Originally Posted By red_on_black:
TGM, something else occurred to me just now. It might be worthwhile to remove the plastic domes from each of your three IR illuminators and test their light output with and without them. Plastic that is transparent to visible light can still be a strong absorber of IR light. It would destroy their weather resistance... and all of mine are mounted outdoors. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly: Where is your IR flood mounted in relationship to the camera. I want to keep bugs away. Mine is mounted at the 7 oclock position. I really need to move it up to the high 11 oclock to benefit both of my cameras. On a side note, we had some outages because of the Hurricane, and if you don't have static IPs on any of your nodes, you need to fix it. I got lazy and left a few of my nodes on DHCP, and it fucked my entire IP camera system. I was on vacation and was blind until I came home. I won't make that mistake again. |
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So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc |
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan: Originally Posted By red_on_black: TGM, something else occurred to me just now. It might be worthwhile to remove the plastic domes from each of your three IR illuminators and test their light output with and without them. Plastic that is transparent to visible light can still be a strong absorber of IR light. It would destroy their weather resistance... and all of mine are mounted outdoors. Absolutely. The transparency of the domes shouldn't have much effect on the IR, unless they are dirty or scuffed. They key is to mount them so that they aren't in direct weather. |
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So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc |
Way I have always done my computer systems in the past is everything stationary in or on the house has a static IP. Last time we had internet I paid extra for a static IP.
Do I really need a static IP address? I did it with the thought that it would make it easier to find my NAS from anywhere in the world I traveled. |
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Tennessee Squire
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By red_on_black:
TGM, something else occurred to me just now. It might be worthwhile to remove the plastic domes from each of your three IR illuminators and test their light output with and without them. Plastic that is transparent to visible light can still be a strong absorber of IR light. It would destroy their weather resistance... and all of mine are mounted outdoors. Absolutely. The transparency of the domes shouldn't have much effect on the IR, unless they are dirty or scuffed. They key is to mount them so that they aren't in direct weather. That's actually what I was trying to point out–– materials that look transparent to us in the visible spectrum (400-700nm) can actually be relatively opaque in the invisible-to-us near infrared (750-1500nm). It doesn't sound like testing your domes would be very useful to either of you guys, but if you ever want to do that you're welcome to send one or two to me. I can put them in a spectrophotometer and get nice measurements of the transmission (as a percent) or absorbance (log scale absorbance units) up to 950nm. Domes would have to be removed from the assembly to test them. |
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"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend … on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless." - Jeff Snyder
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Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
Way I have always done my computer systems in the past is everything stationary in or on the house has a static IP. Last time we had internet I paid extra for a static IP. Do I really need a static IP address? I did it with the thought that it would make it easier to find my NAS from anywhere in the world I traveled. Here's a thought on being able to determine your WAN IP remotely should it be changed while you were away and not have to pay extra for a static IP. You can set your router to send a log report daily to your email addy. You can set most any IP cam to email a report on a schedule. From the email or the report you can easily find your new WAN IP if it's been changed. |
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Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
Way I have always done my computer systems in the past is everything stationary in or on the house has a static IP. Last time we had internet I paid extra for a static IP. Do I really need a static IP address? I did it with the thought that it would make it easier to find my NAS from anywhere in the world I traveled. Here's a thought on being able to determine your WAN IP remotely should it be changed while you were away and not have to pay extra for a static IP. You can set your router to send a log report daily to your email addy. You can set most any IP cam to email a report on a schedule. From the email or the report you can easily find your new WAN IP if it's been changed. I use DynDNS... it keeps the IP updated. |
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"How can you know so little about this and be occupying a chair at the time that you do?"
-Christopher Hitchens to Ron Reagan Jr. on the topic of terrorism- |
Tried but never could figger out how to use it.
Hence, my redneck solution. Someday if ya'all behave yerselfs, I'll 'splain a redneck way how to force change your dynamic WAN IP if you have cable internet. Handy if someone attacks your specific IP with bugs, bans you, etc. It can be done remotely too. |
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This is a question about wifi cameras. I live in an apartment and would like something simple so that I can view my apt on my phone when I'm gone but also record in case there is ever a break in.
Have you heard of 'Dropcam'? $250 gets you one camera with DVR plan. Like I said I want it simple but yet record and be somewhat good quality. I am a total newb Thanks for the help ETA: If there is a way to set it up the same way but have my own DVR so it isn't stored online somewhere, but still be able to view on my phone. |
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"This isn't Vietnam, OP. We have rules here"
A gun, like any other source of power, is a force for either good or evil, being neither in itself, but dependent upon those who possess it. |
I'm gonna tag this for future reading. I'm about to build a new house and want CCTV everywhere.
I'm sure I'll have a million questions. I'm an oilfield guy. Electronics ARE NOT my thing. Great thread. |
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Originally Posted By EasTexan: "There is no debate. There are Texans then there are the Godless, Commie heathens with their faggy lentils in tow..."
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