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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:09:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. What is the point of this thread? I don't think anyone here is going to say they 100% love or hate everything about union or non-union jobs, they both have their positives and negatives... even to people who belong to one, like me. I don't agree with everything that the union does, but I don't disagree enough to quit my job. It pays good and thats all that matters to me. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:11:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Love 'em.
French Onion soup is the greatest soup in the world. HH |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:13:28 PM EDT
[#3]
I said fuck 'em
However, I do think that they have there place and that what they have become can no longer be called a union. Most the time a union is not needed or over used, but In some cases I think that they are a nessasary evil |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:16:41 PM EDT
[#4]
82% of ARFCOM hates or dislikes laber/trade unions.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=870807 |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:24:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Al of ARFCOM hates unions
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:25:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Needed where I work.
Bilster |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:26:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Unions have no place in society now. There are federal laws to protect workers in a work environment. They did have their place back when state and federal laws did not protect them.
Unions cost more to do any kind of work or business. Some douchebag Union Linemen where I installed a phase shifter transformer was bragging they took over 2 years to install 2 H frames to bring in new lines and raise old ones. We assembled, processed and tested the phase shifter in 3 weeks and that amount of work was what those douchebags would have done in 6 months. So basically they are pretty worthless. Unions also drive up the cost of any good they produce or offer. Day 1 and nothing is assembled on the transformers. 
About day 16 or so. 
View from about 50 FT in the air 
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:27:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Ever since I watched a co-worker show up 3 hours late to work, and drunk off his fucking ass, get fired, and then rehired because the union said he did not receive a formal warning yet, and he had to be warned before being fired. After that day I loathed seeing the union dues get pulled from my paycheck every week. Fuck unions.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:29:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. What is the point of this thread? I don't think anyone here is going to say they 100% love or hate everything about union or non-union jobs, they both have their positives and negatives... even to people who belong to one, like me. I don't agree with everything that the union does, but I don't disagree enough to quit my job. It pays good and thats all that matters to me. Of course it pays well, lots of money to be made in extortion. There's a cost to that, it's just not on your shoulders. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:31:13 PM EDT
[#10]
I dont think unions are all that bad, its the people behind them, same as politics, no different.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:31:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I think long ago they were originally established with good intentions, but today, they're mostly corrupt and the bigwigs up high in unions are in it for themselves. They put on a good face in news articles and at union gatherings or meetings, but in the comfort of their upper society home drawing six (or seven) digit salaries, they're like "Fuck everyone else."
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:32:03 PM EDT
[#12]
FUCK UNIONS.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:32:14 PM EDT
[#13]
There are both good and bad things about unions. And we owe some things we take for granted (weekends, for example) to labor activists of yesteryear.
I think a big problem with unions is that some people seem to want to use them as a means to punish/extort businesses rather than as a means to make sure employees are treated well. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:35:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. What is the point of this thread? I don't think anyone here is going to say they 100% love or hate everything about union or non-union jobs, they both have their positives and negatives... even to people who belong to one, like me. I don't agree with everything that the union does, but I don't disagree enough to quit my job. It pays good and thats all that matters to me. And that's the Union attitude we all know and love. Hope you enjoy your paycheck if Obama gets his 'Cap and Trade' passed.  Remember, you're a big part of why he got elected.  |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:36:50 PM EDT
[#15]
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:37:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. What is the point of this thread? I don't think anyone here is going to say they 100% love or hate everything about union or non-union jobs, they both have their positives and negatives... even to people who belong to one, like me. I don't agree with everything that the union does, but I don't disagree enough to quit my job. It pays good and thats all that matters to me. And that's the Union attitude we all know and love. Hope you enjoy your paycheck if Obama gets his 'Cap and Trade' passed.
Remember, you're a big part of why he got elected.
HUGE +1 |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:38:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk. Tacomas are built in a plant by workers represented by the UAW. I dunno about Tundras. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:39:43 PM EDT
[#18]
In the old days, unions were created to protect miners from dangerous working conditions. There was a genuine need for that and it was a good cause.
Eventually they grew into the monsters we have today. The only issue I support them on is worker's safety. They have no business dealing with anything else. The concept of a guaranteed job for life and huge pension upon retirement is ridiculous in the private sector. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:44:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk. Tacomas are built in a plant by workers represented by the UAW. I dunno about Tundras. Nope. My boycott list: http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2009/index.cfm |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:47:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk. I'm in a union and my coworkers and I work our asses off. My dad was also in a union before he retired (not the same union as me) and he worked his ass off, too. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:50:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Oh nooo.... Another uneducated union thread.... For 99% of unions and I am a business owner on top of that for skilled trades. These threads are useless because the haters are not willing to be subjected to rhetorical question and only ramble about shit they hear form 'a brother in laws, best friends, brother'.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:52:27 PM EDT
[#22]
I worked for a steelmill that had an independent union. I had respect for the workers and their union. They were and probably still are a great bunch of guys and the biggest thing they watched was that the overtime was equalized, big deal.
Moved north to a USW mill and after 5 years, all I can say is unions suck!!!! BTW, they old mill is now the national machinist union and is no longer independent. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:52:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Unions have thier place. They take it to far most of the time these days. Around the early 1900's they established alot of the safe work practices that we enjoy today. 16-18 hour work day? Sounds funny these days but it wasnt in the early 1900's, unsafe working conditions, were someone would die on a job site weekly or daily? Thats what it was like before unions. Unions fought for alot of the things we benifit from today, 5 day work weeks, 40 hours etc etc etc. But they have there place and they are not really needed in most industry.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:53:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk. Tacomas are built in a plant by workers represented by the UAW. I dunno about Tundras. Nope. My boycott list: http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2009/index.cfm Wow! That was easy. My next truck is going to be a Tundra. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:53:19 PM EDT
[#25]
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back.
Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family. 
Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers.  ( I voted Fuck Unions! )
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:55:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Remember, you're a big part of why he got elected. Yeah, because we vote how the unions tell us.  The union doesn't tell me who to vote for, just as they don't tell me to jump off a bridge or suck a dick. Fuck them and their opinions. I do not pay into the PAC fund, and my dues cannot be used as a political contribution. That's why they have Political Action Committees. So you can volunteer to give money if you choose.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 3:58:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back. Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family.
Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers. ( I voted Fuck Unions! )That is the single most dumbest fucking anti union argument I've seen to date... What the fuck is wrong with you??? No wonder people hate unions with this kind of thinking... The I.B.E.W. had no jurisdiction on placing you on any type of reduced work. The company at it's sole discretion can discharge you in your state and not guarantee your job when you can return at 100%. This was all the company, state, and fed laws at work not the union! Holy fucking wow...... |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:02:03 PM EDT
[#28]
I'm not a fan of the unions
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:02:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate them so bad that I am considering buying my next truck from Toyota. Pretty sure they don't have any. Too many fuck heads in unions that are happy they don't have to work for a living. Too many union fucks bragging about sleeping for 6 hours a night and then using the money they make from me to elect Obama and his ilk. I'm in a union and my coworkers and I work our asses off. My dad was also in a union before he retired (not the same union as me) and he worked his ass off, too. Until you can stop your union from promoting Fascism I will not be supporting it no matter how hard you work. I was a part of the United Paperworkers for 2 years. Never imagined I could be treated so bad. I was only 19years old and literally laughed at the boss when he screamed at me. He was stunned that anyone would scream right back in his face that he couldn't yell at me like that. Years later I worked as a Tool and Die machinist, sinking dies in 4000 and 6000 ton forging presses. The two old farts that worked with me were union way back. They got pissed at me because I worked too fast. I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to put out as much accurate work as possible in the time I had. They both retired after I worked there for only 6 months. Too embarrassing to be shown as lazy when I was doing three to four times the work without trying. You can't pretend to be a good worker making 2 parts to my 8. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:03:35 PM EDT
[#30]
What do you think is stopping alot of companies from paying everyone walmart wages? Why do you think you have holidays and vacation days? What do you think is stopping bosses from firing anyone they want at anytime?
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:04:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. What is the point of this thread? I don't think anyone here is going to say they 100% love or hate everything about union or non-union jobs, they both have their positives and negatives... even to people who belong to one, like me. I don't agree with everything that the union does, but I don't disagree enough to quit my job. It pays good and thats all that matters to me. This Poll fail. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:08:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Unions have long out lived their purpose.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:09:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Oh nooo.... Another uneducated union thread.... For 99% of unions and I am a business owner on top of that for skilled trades. These threads are useless because the haters are not willing to be subjected to rhetorical question and only ramble about shit they hear form 'a brother in laws, best friends, brother'. Yeah, it's all based on hearsay So a union fan is using lame far reaching arguments, what else is new?
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:09:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back. Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family.
Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers. ( I voted Fuck Unions! )That is the single most dumbest fucking anti union argument I've seen to date... What the fuck is wrong with you??? No wonder people hate unions with this kind of thinking... The I.B.E.W. had no jurisdiction on placing you on any type of reduced work. The company at it's sole discretion can discharge you in your state and not guarantee your job when you can return at 100%. This was all the company, state, and fed laws at work not the union! Holy fucking wow...... This guy paid years of dues and received nothing. The LEAST the union could do if it had any decency would be to help the guy find a new job at another company, just like any headhunter would do. This lack of honest caring for its members is no surprise, just one of many reasons unions are crap. . |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:11:13 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:12:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
What do you think is stopping alot of companies from paying everyone walmart wages? Why do you think you have holidays and vacation days? What do you think is stopping bosses from firing anyone they want at anytime? And exactly what should those people working at Walmart be paid for their "skills"? If it weren't for Walmart, they what kind of job with what kind of benefits would these people have? |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:13:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
What do you think is stopping alot of companies from paying everyone walmart wages? Why do you think you have holidays and vacation days? What do you think is stopping bosses from firing anyone they want at anytime? What do you think causes artificial wage increases that drive up the cost of goods and services resulting in everyone paying higher prices? Its called inflation and paying artificially high wages is one of the causes. Who is to say that Walmart wages would not be very good wages if the prices of lots of US goods weren't driven up by unions? You do understand that $5,000 a year used to be a lot of money? |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:14:35 PM EDT
[#38]
at one time unions were a good thing and have benefitted society - i dont like them though because they are entwined with democratic poliitics and they take away the independence and personal responsibility of individuals
they are inefficient as hell - instead of everyone chipping in as a team, there are all of these stupid turf rules designed to protect peoples jobs - hell i cant even set a lap top up in some govt buildings without an IT union fucker doing it for me, its insane |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:15:48 PM EDT
[#39]
I could find news articles about cops beating up people and American military personnel raping local women, but that doesn't mean they all do it. 
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:18:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
I could find news articles about cops beating up people and American military personnel raping local women, but that doesn't mean they all do it. One is the exception, the other is the norm. Guess which is which? |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:18:56 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
What do you think is stopping alot of companies from paying everyone walmart wages? Why do you think you have holidays and vacation days? What do you think is stopping bosses from firing anyone they want at anytime? See post above, apparently not unions. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:19:34 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back. Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family.
Maybe you should look up the federal workers compensation laws.... More so for his state.... The union had their hands tied and also had a disability benefit for him that he has not spoke of on top of the workers comp... I've been doing this for awhile and am some what in tune with how this works. I've been a forman for a very large company, and worker, and union apprenticeship instructor and small business owner. Yeah when you work for 'the man' you are going to get the short end of the stick in one way or another. Most look at unions as a golden ass plug to protect them from everything and the hater think the same. I've in the past and will stand by my 'uneducated arguments' line until someone can prove me wrong. I will also day I wish you people would get the dues thing straight and what it pays for.... Then relize that any and all union officials can be recalled or voted out..... Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers. ( I voted Fuck Unions! )That is the single most dumbest fucking anti union argument I've seen to date... What the fuck is wrong with you??? No wonder people hate unions with this kind of thinking... The I.B.E.W. had no jurisdiction on placing you on any type of reduced work. The company at it's sole discretion can discharge you in your state and not guarantee your job when you can return at 100%. This was all the company, state, and fed laws at work not the union! Holy fucking wow...... This guy paid years of dues and received nothing. The LEAST the union could do if it had any decency would be to help the guy find a new job at another company, just like any headhunter would do. This lack of honest caring for its members is no surprise, just one of many reasons unions are crap. . |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:20:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back. Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family.
Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers. ( I voted Fuck Unions! )That is the single most dumbest fucking anti union argument I've seen to date... What the fuck is wrong with you??? No wonder people hate unions with this kind of thinking... The I.B.E.W. had no jurisdiction on placing you on any type of reduced work. The company at it's sole discretion can discharge you in your state and not guarantee your job when you can return at 100%. This was all the company, state, and fed laws at work not the union! Holy fucking wow...... This guy paid years of dues and received nothing. The LEAST the union could do if it had any decency would be to help the guy find a new job at another company, just like any headhunter would do. This lack of honest caring for its members is no surprise, just one of many reasons unions are crap. . Maybe you should look up the federal workers compensation laws.... More so for his state.... The union had their hands tied and also had a disability benefit for him that he has not spoke of on top of the workers comp... I've been doing this for awhile and am some what in tune with how this works. I've been a forman for a very large company, and worker, and union apprenticeship instructor and small business owner. Yeah when you work for 'the man' you are going to get the short end of the stick in one way or another. Most look at unions as a golden ass plug to protect them from everything and the hater think the same. I've in the past and will stand by my 'uneducated arguments' line until someone can prove me wrong. I will also day I wish you people would get the dues thing straight and what it pays for.... Then relize that any and all union officials can be recalled or voted out..... |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:21:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
What do you think is stopping alot of companies from paying everyone walmart wages? Why do you think you have holidays and vacation days? What do you think is stopping bosses from firing anyone they want at anytime? Are you serious? If so you have a sad understanding of what makes this country great. Wages are (and SHOULD BE) determined by competition. If Walmart only offers me $5/hour and Target is looking for workers, it will have to offer me $6. Same is true with vacation and holidays. If company A offers crappy benefits their employees will leave for company B. Companies have the right to fire whoever they want at any time, as long as it's based on job performance. Discrimination obviously is not acceptable. What you spout is communism. The State sets the wages, the State decided how much time off you get, nobody can ever be fired. . |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:21:27 PM EDT
[#45]
When my wife was a teacher in Maryland, she was forced as a condition of her employment to be a member of the union. The union took her dues and then gave them to our political opponents. We moved. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:21:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
I could find news articles about cops beating up people and American military personnel raping local women, but that doesn't mean they all do it. 99.9% of the Union people I worked with did that and more I have no desire to go back to working with those people. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:22:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Loving and fucking are not mutually exclusive. Only Arfcommers with bad marriages think this.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:22:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Unions were Commie before Commie was cool.
And I used to belong to one.
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:24:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The I.B.E.W. local that I worked through didn't do a damn thing when I got injured on the job, they didn't even try and talk my employer into taking me back. Double pane window slammed shut on my wrist as I was installing contacts for the alarm system. Had surgery on my hand/wrist and went through therapy. .Gov even offered to pay half of my salary for one year. Called the local union hall to see if they could intervene.... They (I.B.E.W.) said they couldn't force them to take me back since I was not 100% able to do my job. So whatever, take my money for all of them years and don't even put up a fight or try and place me with someone who would accept my abilities for what they are and let me provide for my family.
Yea, the I.B.E.W. can take a flying fuck on a rolling donut, thanks mother-fuckers. ( I voted Fuck Unions! )That is the single most dumbest fucking anti union argument I've seen to date... What the fuck is wrong with you??? No wonder people hate unions with this kind of thinking... The I.B.E.W. had no jurisdiction on placing you on any type of reduced work. The company at it's sole discretion can discharge you in your state and not guarantee your job when you can return at 100%. This was all the company, state, and fed laws at work not the union! Holy fucking wow...... This guy paid years of dues and received nothing. The LEAST the union could do if it had any decency would be to help the guy find a new job at another company, just like any headhunter would do. This lack of honest caring for its members is no surprise, just one of many reasons unions are crap. . Maybe you should look up the federal workers compensation laws.... More so for his state.... The union had their hands tied and also had a disability benefit for him that he has not spoke of on top of the workers comp... I've been doing this for awhile and am some what in tune with how this works. I've been a forman for a very large company, and worker, and union apprenticeship instructor and small business owner. Yeah when you work for 'the man' you are going to get the short end of the stick in one way or another. Most look at unions as a golden ass plug to protect them from everything and the hater think the same. I've in the past and will stand by my 'uneducated arguments' line until someone can prove me wrong. I will also day I wish you people would get the dues thing straight and what it pays for.... Then relize that any and all union officials can be recalled or voted out..... I'm not asking for the union to do anything based on legal contracts or state laws. I'm just saying that they should help him out of their own pocket - union management should spend time helping him find a job. |
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Posted: 6/28/2009 4:26:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
All the union hate...let's see how you really feel. What do you think of unions? Love them? Hate them? Personally, I hate them. I guess you missed the other 200 threads on this.
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