Those of us who have pumped iron know that your body needs a recovery period after lifting, so the muscle can repair itself.

My question is this. Does the same principle hold true for other exercises that also buid muscle but don't involve weights...like crunches and push-ups? Most people I've talked to or know feel that sit-ups and crunches can be performed on a daily basis.

It would seem to me that these exercises, if done to the point of "failure" would also tear down muscle fiber, and would require a recovery period as well. Is this true? If not....why?

Ed....you around tonight? You seem to be the guru around here on these subjects.

Thanks for the help.

I've wondered the same thing. I'll usually try to do at least situps everyday and hanging leg raises everytime I go over to the gym(usually 4 or 5 times a week). you got me curious so I looked in the Wieder "Complete Bodybuilding" book and couldn't find anything specificly answering that, but there is a qutoe in ther that says: "I've even known of a few top body builders who actually blast away at their midsection twice a day 6 to 7 days a week" But are they the exception? it doens't say. I dunno, those are muscles you strain and use a lot all the time anyway, and me, I've never been able to work them to the point of failure (I run out of breath,blood,and patience first) thats why I've always thought in my mind it'd be alright. who knows.

As far as pushups for me, no. if I actually  do them and if I do it's at the gym on my chest-back-shoulders days, I can feel it burn pretty good in my pecs and the rear of my shoulders after a lot so I figure that can't be good to do on a rest day.

Anyone Else know?

I can't spell tonight

I am, right now, involved in an intensive Power-Lifting program.
Fuck bodybuilding. It's queer.
Strength is what you want.

Sit ups can be done daily.

Squat
Dead Lift
Bench

Give each of these exercises AT LEAST one week of recovery time.
Never do more than 6 reps.
Never "max out" until the last set.

This flies in the face of what bodybuilders will tell you.
Ignore them.
It's strength that counts.

I do some ab work every day except weekends. And as has been said, I can't seem to fatigue my abs either. Anybody have a killer ab burn routine?

ALL muscles need to recover and rest. Like you said, even doing ab workouts breaks down muscles so they can get stronger, and they need rest nad recovery just as every other muscle we workout. IMHO.

I second this. All muscles need a recovery period regardless of which part it is. Some more than others. Abs you can probably go every other day, but everyday is too much. Do you want growth or strength, that is what you have to ask yourself.

With your abs, you can blast away at them everyday. You don't need to let them recover. A fitness trainer told me that only the abs can be worked on everyday. All others must be rested. I also read it on many fitness magazines. We constantly use our abs everyday. When we eat, breathe, cough, laugh, etc... So might as well work them out everyday.

I do a nice ab burning workout, but it's hard to explain.

[b]Fuck bodybuilding. It's queer[/b]

Major - what's-a-matter with the razor-bladed t-shirt / lycra tights / work boot / doo rag / got acne cuz I'm a roided out blow pig wanna-be-a-whale / mullet head / narcissitic freak look anyway?

Thanks for the replies fellas....looks like it's a tie.

Where's Ed when you need him?

Abs recover quickly IF you're doing sit ups or crunches.
They can be done daily.
If you're doing HEAVY weighted situps, give them a few days.

I have always been told that if you want to lose weight, you do the exercises every day (any and all exercises).  If you want to build muscle, you rest for one day in between.  Makes sense to me.

I would like to add that after many years of Powerlifting I have started training my abs the same way I train the rest of my body. I lift heavy sets of 5 to 8 reps with 5 minute breaks between sets. I do 3 to 5 sets for each activity. I have had NO back problems since I started doing this. Before, I was doing heavy deads and wasting my time with 100's of ab crunches. I had back problems because I believe that my back was too strong for my abs. Not anymore, my abs are well adjusted now and I won't use a belt for squats until I get over 400 pounds.

I train abs twice a week.

Karl

Forgot to add that it is VERY important to stretch before and after working out.

Karl

Karl's got it. I feel the same way about the belt.

I used to have a bad lower back.
Two Mondays ago, I Rack Pulled 1,015 lb.s, from about 3" above my knees to upright (I tried 1,105 this Monday, but failed).
No back pain, other that what you would expect.
{rack pull is an accessory exercise that helps with the others}

Power lifting is THE best way to build useful muscle.

[url]www.ExRx.net[/url]try that for some info.I work out daily @ 1 1/2hrs sometimes heavy,sometimes 'lite',[b]Always stretching first for 10ish min.[/b][:)][b]ABS daily[/b]just diffrent ab exercises,mostly leg action/lifts type to hit abs,you get outta it what you put into it.Unless your ROIDING! Then you get alot more..ie.. stretch marks,Acne back,migrating hair.....[:D]AND HUGE+POWER! if your liver can take it.[;)]

I cycle lifting weights with body weight PT. I basically switch back and forth every 3 months.  Here's the site where I got my bodyeight PT routines from.  The workouts are by a former Navy Rescue diver who did PT with the SEALS on a regular basis.  These workouts will get you into fighting shape in a hurry!

There's three workouts the first two are not too bad but if you can do # 3 all the way through the first time then you're a stud!  

Try it out and let me know how you do.

[url]webfects.com/hea/routine.htm[/url]

"Abs are different than other muscles" is one of the oldest gym hypes there is.  I've heard the same thing said about calves and forearms.  The only way you can build muscles like that is if you are roiding. You grow during recovery!  I train abs twice a week and have a clearly defined six-pack. It is all about intensity. If you're not sore the next day or two, you're not doing something right.  Abs reguire ISOLATION. I would guess that 90% of people do not isolate thier abs during workouts.  Also, the main part of your workout should be crunches. If you do these right, using only your abs to initiate the movement and relaxing the rest of your body, you'll probably only be able to knockout 15 or so. It's kind of hard to explain.
BTW- I would not advise anyone to start a powerlifting program before receiving knowledgable instruction. Powerlifting is not designed to really make you look better, just stronger.  Just watch them on ESPN sometime.

"Isolation" is also a myth. It comes from those who are more concerned with appearance, than function, or strength.
If the muscles are being used, they're being used. It doesn't matter if the neighboring muscles get used also.
IN FACT, it makes sense to NOT isolate the muscle you're working, because the surrounding, buttressing muscles are needed too.
For BiCeps, try hammer curls, heavy weight.  Weight so heavy, that you have to jerk the weight to lift it.  What ever it takes to lift the weight. That way, the muscle surrounding the BiCep are strong too. Don't you need them, also?

As far as Powerlifters not looking all "cut", or lean, that's diet.
Not the workout.

Geez Major, you are a strong dude! The best I have done on rack pulls (knee cap height) is 780 for 3 reps with suit on. Felt good seeing the bar flex! The only problem that I have with deads and rack pulls is that my hands get tired. Man, gotta love those deads. THE BEST ACTIVTY of them all.

Karl

How do you lift weights with your abdominal muscles?

Karl, I'm 6', and only weigh 198.
I only SQ and DL 495 x3.
But I do train with intensity.
(My lifting partner Rack Pulls 1,225!)
I couldn't Rack Pull more than 900, until I used hand wraps.  [img]http://www2.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/images/79-TSESTRAP.JPG[/img]They allow you to change your grip to a "shrug" grip, and rely less on the hands.  I use the DL grip up until 860.

Also Karl, try spreading out your work outs.
I SQ and DL every 2 weeks, alternating.
Bench, every week.
Strength stll increases, and no injuries.

Get set up on the decline bench.  Have someone hand you a dumbell.  Hold it high on your chest, just under your chin. Mind your back!

You can use heavy weights for ab workouts by trapping your feet under a heavy object (i use the free weight storage racks), put a weight on your chest (I use the 60 pound Universal plates and eventually work up to 90 pounds) and sit up. There are those who will criticize this lift as they claim that it works the hip flexors too much. I REALLY feel it in the abs. I would recommend that you start with a 25 pound plate and work up to something comfy. Remeber that anything more than 8 reps is a waste of energy (in a powerlifters mentality). And make damn sure you are working out your back muscles in the days between these heavy ab days. One must be balanced!

Major:

I am 27 yrs old, 6'1 and 220#. Unfortunately, I had a knee injury will playing collegiate rugby and my squat has suffered a bit. I can still deadlift with no problem. I prefer sumo style deads as they are easier on my body. I also use wrist straps when I start doing heavy rack pulls.

Take care,

Karl

Thanks Ed...I had a feeling you'd show up.

Now get back out there and bring us all home some venison! With all that muscle you can leave the rifle at home and wrestle that mother f*cker in to the back of your truck!

Exercises like crunches, dips, pullups and pushups usually don't require the same resting period that weight lifting does.  

The reason is that the vast majority of strength gains from these exercises don't come from tearing down and rebuilding of muscle fibers, but rather from increased muscle recruitment and muscular efficency.

Not all the muscle fibers at once.  They are divided up into units called sarcomeres.  All muscle cells in a given sarcomere will contract at once but not all the sarcomeres in a muscle (Bicep , for example) will fire at the same time.  A physically inactive person they may only have 20% of their sarcomeres firing at once.  Through training they can improve this level, and thus improve their strength, without ever increasing the muscle size.  In fact this, not increased muscle fiber mass, is the primary mode of strength gain as you age.

The body limits the amount of sarcomeres that could fire simultaneously because of the potential for the muscles to literally tear themselves right off the skeletal structure.  This natural inhibition can be overcome by stress (think granny lifting car off little kid) or by drugs (i.e. PCP junkie with superhuman strength).

The other gains (though not technically strength) come from increased muscular efficiency.  Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is the fuel used by muscle cells and is produced from glycogen by mitochondria in the nucleus.  With exercise, both the number and size of the mitochondria will increase.  This leads to more efficient production of ATP and thus a greater amount of exercise that can be done before fatigue sets in.  Also known as muscular endurance.

If you can already do 30 seconds to one minute of a body weight exercise then you are past the point where your body tears down and rebuilds muscle fibers to become stronger.  Therefore no need to rest.  Continuing the same exercise will only develop increased endurance and recruitment, both of which don't need rest to improve.

If you increase the intensity of the exercise by doing crunches with a weight or doing inclined pushups then you are challenging the muscle strength again and will benefit from rest between workouts.  Once your body catches up then you will again plateau at the new higher level and your body doesn't need to rest in between workouts unless you take it to an even higher level.

The bottom line is that once you build up to an exercise-any exercise-you can perform that exercise on a daily basis without rest (do you take a day off between walking?).  When you overload your body past what it's used to then you do need a day to recover.  

Use your body as a guide.  If your arms or chest muscles feel sore a day after you do pushups then you've been literally tearing down fibers that need time to rebuild.  If they're not sore then you didn't and don't need to rest.  It doesn't mean you didn't get a good workout, just that your workout produced different results.

LMAO.... ED, Flex before you shoot... [;)]


Major Murphy...  All Power Lifters are Suger blood Queer, but maybe your just fructose Queer... [rolleyes]  

I'm so confused.

I was merely reiterating on your statement made prior. You obviously
weren't aware that all powerlifters are queer, not bodybuilders,  Do you lift with
Pink Weider Olympic weights or are you closet ?   [rolleyes]  

PS...  I would have used the wink smiley, but I didn't want you to get the wrong impresion...[:D]

I've been lifting off and on since high school and this topic is one of those that you'll get 100 different answers on.  My 2 cents are that if you're REALLY blasting the abs or calves, you should rest them just like any other body part.  However, if you're only doing moderate exercise to keep tone, you can probably get away with doing them every day.

Again, it depends on who you talk to.  My advice is usually to do what works best for you no matter what anyone else says.

Hope this helps.

I'm still very confused....

You got two main types of muscle tissue, strong/fast twitch = white fibers and endurance/slow twitch = red fibers. Your abs and lower back are mostly red for endurance. They were designed to go long periods of time without filling up with lactic acid and getting fatigued, thus the red color = lots of blood vessels. You should be able to exercise them daily without recovery time.

Hmm...  Must be the closet factor.... [:D]