A while back, my friend Michael contacted me.  He said,

"I am sending you some "shootpacks" (~18"x18"). The one condition is that you not mention my name or the supplier. Because your setup is informal, they would not want to have their name connected with the testing since you don't have a NIJ-certified laboratory setup.

For your information, body armor material is designed to work when worn by a human. Humans are compressible. IIIA material will work when put on a person or over 4" of ballistic clay, but if you just put IIIA material over concrete or over boards, it will fail. So, you might want to cogitate on this as you think about how to set up your tests."

Is this a great job or what!

So, here we go.  The set-up:



The box contains Modeling Clay from Hobby Lobby.  I will hang the armor over the front.

First 9mm.



I shot 115 gr. JHP out of my Glock 34:



It flattened it out on the third sheet.  The "shoot pack" had 28 sheets or layers.  Notice how it did not "fill" the hollow point, but just flattened it out.

Here's the dent in the clay:



Then .45 ACP, Hydro-Shock JHP.



Again, it was flattened completely.  And notice the dent in the clay.



How about a .40 S&W?



It was stopped in the second layer.



But it made a nasty dent.

We decided to try a round of 9mm Ball because that is most commonly used in the Sandbox.



Notice how it flattened out the ball.

This armor isn't designed to stop rifle fire, but why not try the trusty AR15?



You can see that Tman has just hit the target and blown it up. (Notice the orange clip in the air. )



How's that for a kill shot?

We didn't set this up, but look at the jacket laying in the hole.



Here's the remains of the M-193.



How about  12 gauge 00 Buck?  Here I am turning it loose.



It only penetrated 2 layers.  Here's the dent in the clay.



The pellets were caught between the second and third layers.



Here they are after I dug them out of the armor.



Well, what about a 12 gauge Slug?  Notice the impact.



It penetrated several layers, but flattened out completely.



And here's the dent it made in the clay.



How about, as Gunny Highway said, "The prefered weapon of our enemy", the 7.62 X 39.



It went right through the armor, just as expected.  It only made a small entry:



But it was clear that there was a larger hole beneath.  So, I dug away the top layer, and this is what I found:



Ugly.

Lessons Learned:

1.  Level IIIA armor stopped the handgun bullets tested, just as designed.  Either JHPs or Ball.

2.  Once again, "Rifles are rifles and pistols are pistols".  Rifles went right through, just as expected.

3.  The armor stopped 00 Buck and Rifled Slugs.

4.  If your adversery is wearing armor, don't depend on pistols or shotguns.  Go for a rifle.  As Clint Smith says, "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down".

5.  And, as always, shooting stuff is fun.

(Thanks to Michael for the armor, and thanks to Tman for the photo help.)

w00t!

What would you say had the largest "wound cavity" in teh clay, of all the following hand gun rounds??

9mm

40 S&W

45

Wow. High quality stuff! Thanks, OP!

Best BOT ever!!!!!!!

Great work once again!

I'm still curious about pistol caliber carbines though.

Holy shit.  It stopped a SLUG?!

Quoted: What would you say had the largest "wound cavity" in teh clay, of all the following hand gun rounds?? 9mm 40 S&W 45

I would be hesitant to make such a judgement, g-man.  This is not "ballistic" clay and might not be accurate for such measurements.

But for Hobby Lobby Modeling clay (), it looked like the .40 S&W was the deepest, although they were all close to the same size.

Thanks for the thread! These are great.

Thanks for teh info.  It's teh roolz.

Quoted: Great work once again! I'm still curious about pistol caliber carbines though.

A pistol caliber carbine is just a long barreled pistol.

It is not a rifle and never will be.

And that's the facts.

Quoted: Holy shit.  It stopped a SLUG?!

With not a big problem, it seems.

Slugs have their uses.  But they are not rifle rounds.

Awesome.  

Thank you for your efforts.  

Quoted: I would be hesitant to make such a judgement, g-man.  This is not "ballistic" clay and might not be accurate for such measurements. But for Hobby Lobby Modeling clay (), it looked like the .40 S&W was the deepest, although they were all close to the same size.

From the pics, I was thinking the .40 looked as big as any.

The energy transfer of the 3 rounds into any consistent medium should give some idea of the effectiveness of teh 3 rounds, no?

BBOTE

(Best BOT Ever)

Thanks as always, and hats off to you, OP.

That's it. I'm getting a CCW for my G3.

Seriously, though, what about other less common rounds such as .44 mag,  5.7 and  .357 mag?

From www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

When properly wearing the appropriate body armor, not one law enforcement officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their vest. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) certifies three levels of body armor. The most commonly worn, Level IIA, offers realistic protection against all .22, .25, .32, .380, and .38, caliber handgun ammunition, against most 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum handgun ammunition and against 000 buck shotgun pellets. Level II and Level IIIA armor protects from even greater threats including 12 gauge shotgun slugs and the "hottest" .44 Magnum rounds.

CW

Excellent report ............thanks.

The penatration in the clay......... rifles vs handguns is not surprising but the effect on the clay is.

Damn. Remind me to not get shot with 5.56mm!

Ok, remind me to not get shot with anything, armor or not, but DAMN!

Hey, O_P, you need to get a Five-seveN and see how those rounds really do against body armor.

NEXT TEST LEVEL IV ARMOR CERAMIC PLATES & POLICE BALLISTIC SHEILDS!!!!!!!!
Come on OP don't let us down!

Also, Could you test HP rifle ammo, as well as SP rifle ammo? Something tells me this would have a harder time getting through due to it's softer nose.

Also consider some exotic stuff as well! maybe a Flechette loaded shotgun? Those steel pins might go through where lead buck fails.

But I say stick with 5.56mm & 7.62X39mm, as these are the most common rounds used in Iraq as well as general combat situations.

Also could you maybe put to rest some of the rumors of some ammo? Like can 7.62x25 FMJ penetrate lvl  3 or 3a? or how about Aguila?

Holy shit. It stopped a SLUG?!

This comes as no suprise! The slug is expandable therefore weak nosed, and it is large therefore much harder to penetrate, and it's velocity is too slow.

thanks

Always good stuff from OP!

G23c

Quoted: The energy transfer of the 3 rounds into any consistent medium should give some idea of the effectiveness of teh 3 rounds, no?

nope energy transfer in pistol rounds and temp wound cavity dont mean shit.

Look at the permanant wound cavity and in that case using the same type of bullet in different calibers .45 comes out on top everytime

Quoted: Awesome.   Thank you for your efforts.

+1 Great thread!!

More proof of why the carbean is the Home Defense solution, and the shotgun is a poor second choice.

Quoted: More proof of why the carbean is the Home Defense solution, and the shotgun is a poor second choice.

Absolutely.  I go with the AR anyway but previously I had imagined slugs performing better against armor.  Although, it still might deliver some horrific blunt trauma but that's not something I want to rely on.

I'd like to see someone punch the clay with their fist as hard as they could to see the dent that would make. That would give us something to compare against the shooting. I can't tell how bad it would hurt from the pictures.

Very good job. Thank you.

O_P

O_P,

In your guesstimation, would you think that any of the rounds stopped by the armor (I'm thinking specifically of the slug) would have killed the wearer even though it technically stopped in the armor?

Quoted: I'd like to see someone punch the clay with their fist as hard as they could to see the dent that would make. That would give us something to compare against the shooting. I can't tell how bad it would hurt from the pictures. Very good job. Thank you.

How about whack it with a mini-sledge or something.  I'm thinking a fist wouldn't do much.

I wonder how M193 would perform on the tumble?

How about comparing a .223 after it sheds all of it's lethality after passing through a wall of sheetrock?

BBOTE!!

Thanks!

Shawn

Thanks OP!!

I love these posts. Great stuff. Have fun, looking forward to the next BOT.

You certainly have a much better setup than Druffick and I did when we did our vest testing.  Excellent information as always.  I would be curious to see what a 60 gr. HP round would do or possibly a V-Max.  I bet they would still penetrate the armor, but would probably make a different wound channel.  MJD

Quoted: For your information, body armor material is designed to work when worn by a human. Humans are compressible. IIIA material will work when put on a person or over 4" of ballistic clay, but if you just put IIIA material over concrete or over boards, it will fail. So, you might want to cogitate on this as you think about how to set up your tests."

This just made me think about something.

In another thread about Special Forces using Toyota trucks I noticed that one of the pictures had a vest thrown over the door of the truck, presumably as poor man's armor. I've seen humvees with similar setups and I'm wondering if they might actually be making things worse on themselves than if they were wearing the vest? We know from that one Mythbusters that standard car doors are not in any way, shape, or form bullet resistant (much less proof), but does adding bodyarmor to it really help?

Perhaps a metal BoT is in order? A pair of sheets of 16ga (or whatever) steel with kevlar on each side and your clay thing there on the other side?

Quoted: Quoted: I'd like to see someone punch the clay with their fist as hard as they could to see the dent that would make. That would give us something to compare against the shooting. I can't tell how bad it would hurt from the pictures. Very good job. Thank you. How about whack it with a mini-sledge or something.  I'm thinking a fist wouldn't do much.

I'm thinking you'd hurt your wrist/hand :)

I'd like to see a CZ-52 tested,  the 7.62x25 is supposed to defeat IIIA armor.

Quoted: Best BOT ever!!!!!!!

+1

Your insides would definately be hurting after getting hit with any of those handgun rounds. I wonder if it could hit hard enough to do serious damage to a vital organ such as your liver.

Quoted: Quoted: For your information, body armor material is designed to work when worn by a human. Humans are compressible. IIIA material will work when put on a person or over 4" of ballistic clay, but if you just put IIIA material over concrete or over boards, it will fail. So, you might want to cogitate on this as you think about how to set up your tests." This just made me think about something. In another thread about Special Forces using Toyota trucks I noticed that one of the pictures had a vest thrown over the door of the truck, presumably as poor man's armor. I've seen humvees with similar setups and I'm wondering if they might actually be making things worse on themselves than if they were wearing the vest? We know from that one Mythbusters that standard car doors are not in any way, shape, or form bullet resistant (much less proof), but does adding bodyarmor to it really help? Perhaps a metal BoT is in order? A pair of sheets of 16ga (or whatever) steel with kevlar on each side and your clay thing there on the other side?

 

We did that in Iraq (hang flak vests on the doors of our Humvees)  We didn't think it would stop bullets or an RPG, but we felt that it could help against IED fragments which is what we faced most of the time.  

FWIW, the vests we hung on the doors were extra ones, we always wore at least flak vests and later the IBA armor.

Quoted: I'd like to see someone punch the clay with their fist as hard as they could to see the dent that would make. That would give us something to compare against the shooting. I can't tell how bad it would hurt from the pictures. Very good job. Thank you.

I didn't do that because it would only put a small dent in the clay and hurt my fist.

The clay is "tough" and I doubt that even a boxer could make more than a 1 inch dent with his fist.

Now, I am in no way trying to make any coorelation between the dent sizes.  So, let's not run too far down that rabbit trail.

Quoted: Holy shit.  It stopped a SLUG?!

No Shit..... I'da never thunk it!

Dave

Damn.... that 5.56mm looks like a little nuke went off in the clay.  Looks like it almost took your box apart too.

Awesome post.  Truely cool.

Quoted: O_P, In your guesstimation, would you think that any of the rounds stopped by the armor (I'm thinking specifically of the slug) would have killed the wearer even though it technically stopped in the armor?

I am not a Doctor.

However, we have some on this site.  And one, ARDOC had these comments posted on the last thread:

I can comment on the blunt trauma. Blunt trauma can be as severe if not worse then a penetrating injury. An AK round may whistle though your body and make little wounds. Very little enegery dumped into your body. Thats why the 5.56 was thought to be so much more effective because it stopped when it hit a target and dumped all the energy into the target. As you can see be the wounds under the jacket, they are pretty severe. Broken bones and internal injuries and bleeding would be common. A shot to the spleen or liver, you could easily have massive hemmorhage and bleed out internally. Not to mention a large enough blunt hit to your chest can stop your heart. Abdomnial shots can damage and kill portions of the bowel. Long slow lingering deaths. Is it better the nothing? Usually but not always.

There you have it.

Quoted: Quoted: Holy shit.  It stopped a SLUG?! No Shit..... I'da never thunk it! Dave

And that is why we do the tests.

Quoted: I wonder how M193 would perform on the tumble? How about comparing a .223 after it sheds all of it's lethality after passing through a wall of sheetrock?