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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:07:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Checking it out. Thanks!
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:08:54 PM EDT
[#2]
TAG for future reading.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:09:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Tag for later, thanks OP!
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:23:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:50:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
I revised my paper explaining Mils/MOA, S-MOA and the RangeEquations by taking out the math parts and simplifying it for those notinterested in all the math. This is a reference manual. I hope you enjoy it, learn from it and pass it along.Thank you. https://www.scribd.com/doc/265985865/Mils-MOA-A-Basic-Study-for-Shooters Bob Simeone (Bags) Note: Old original, a little more math involved, paper: https://www.scribd.com/doc/251836084/Mils-MOA-and-the-Range-Estimation-Equations Links did not work. Said something about too many redirects and went to a page 404 error. A little help please as this is topic I am interested. TIA. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 5:52:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Links did not work. Said something about too many redirects and went to a page 404 error. A little help please as this is topic I am interested. TIA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I revised my paper explaining Mils/MOA, S-MOA and the RangeEquations by taking out the math parts and simplifying it for those notinterested in all the math. This is a reference manual. I hope you enjoy it, learn from it and pass it along.Thank you. https://www.scribd.com/doc/265985865/Mils-MOA-A-Basic-Study-for-Shooters Bob Simeone (Bags) Note: Old original, a little more math involved, paper: https://www.scribd.com/doc/251836084/Mils-MOA-and-the-Range-Estimation-Equations Links did not work. Said something about too many redirects and went to a page 404 error. A little help please as this is topic I am interested. TIA. I'm curious about reading this as well. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:00:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Cool, thanks.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:06:05 PM EDT
[#8]
I just clicked on them, please try again. Sorry, it could have been the website.
Cold links:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/265985865/Mils-MOA-A-Basic-Study-for-Shooters https://www.scribd.com/doc/251836084/Mils-MOA-and-the-Range-Estimation-Equations |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:07:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just clicked on them, please try again. Sorry, it could have been the website. Cold links: https://www.scribd.com/doc/265985865/Mils-MOA-A-Basic-Study-for-Shooters https://www.scribd.com/doc/251836084/Mils-MOA-and-the-Range-Estimation-Equations Pdf? |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:08:12 PM EDT
[#10]
It works for me , thanks
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:08:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool, thanks. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:17:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:17:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Thanks
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Posted: 5/22/2015 6:22:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Actually, artillery and tanks,especially,use mils differently. What they are referring to is a gunner's mil, not a miliradian. A gunner's mil is 1/6400 part of a circle. So there are 17.778 mils per degree. There are 17.453 miliradians per degree. Russian and some other armies use different # of mils per degree.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 7:06:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually, artillery and tanks,especially,use mils differently. What they are referring to is a gunner's mil, not a miliradian. A gunner's mil is 1/6400 part of a circle. So there are 17.778 mils per degree. There are 17.453 miliradians per degree. Russian and some other armies use different # of mils per degree. I do talk about that briefly in the paper, bottom of page 14 and start of 15. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 7:15:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:05:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Thank you!
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:15:52 PM EDT
[#18]
It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please?
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:16:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! 
A.W.D. |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:17:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Excellent thank you!
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:18:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Good work. Thank you.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 8:49:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 10:42:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh shoot!!!, I didn't know that. For those who can't get it online, I will be glad to email you it. Coming your way D-bass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? Can I get both of them via email as well please? Thanks |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 10:44:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 10:57:52 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:04:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TAG for future reading. ditto |
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:05:35 PM EDT
[#27]
I'd love a copy too, if you don't mind. I'd like to download it and read it later, but cannot. I'd love both versions. I'm that weird guy that enjoys math.
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:06:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Ost
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:37:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can I get both of them via email as well please? Thanks Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? Can I get both of them via email as well please? Thanks I would like them as well. Can't ever have too many MIL/MOA explanations layin around 
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Posted: 5/22/2015 11:44:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
TAG for future reading. As an Appleseed instructor we cover the basics of MOA and finding an easier way to explain this to folks who've never heard of MOA would be great! |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:01:20 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh shoot!!!, I didn't know that. For those who can't get it online, I will be glad to email you it. Coming your way D-bass. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? Yeah I just don't jack with facebook but I'd appreciate the reading material. Thanks again, email sent |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 12:15:35 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh shoot!!!, I didn't know that. For those who can't get it online, I will be glad to email you it. Coming your way D-bass. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 7:51:01 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 7:57:59 AM EDT
[#34]
Thank you. I had no problem accessing the pages.
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:00:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Tag for later. 0500 is way too early for that type of reading.
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:07:03 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually, artillery and tanks,especially,use mils differently. What they are referring to is a gunner's mil, not a miliradian. A gunner's mil is 1/6400 part of a circle. So there are 17.778 mils per degree. There are 17.453 miliradians per degree. Russian and some other armies use different # of mils per degree. There is no such thing as a gunners mil, its a mil or a NATO Mil. The Russian system is called the DC system and is 1/6000 of a circle. The Mil has been used by European militaries since the late 1800s and entered US military service in 1904 when we bought French Pantels, it also used on various other sights, compasses and on tripods. The shooting community has misappropriated the term Mil to refer to milaradians, a term that had been used for over a hundred years and on thousands of weapons sights prior to the guys at WTBN using milradians instead of mils like the rest of the military. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:09:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tag for later, thanks OP! |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:15:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do talk about that briefly in the paper, bottom of page 14 and start of 15. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Actually, artillery and tanks,especially,use mils differently. What they are referring to is a gunner's mil, not a miliradian. A gunner's mil is 1/6400 part of a circle. So there are 17.778 mils per degree. There are 17.453 miliradians per degree. Russian and some other armies use different # of mils per degree. I do talk about that briefly in the paper, bottom of page 14 and start of 15. I am certainly NO EXPERT.........was it wrong for me to always assume that 1 mil is 1,000th of my distance to the target? |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:21:52 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no such thing as a gunners mil, its a mil or a NATO Mil. The Russian system is called the DC system and is 1/6000 of a circle. The Mil has been used by European militaries since the late 1800s and entered US military service in 1904 when we bought French Pantels, it also used on various other sights, compasses and on tripods. The shooting community has misappropriated the term Mil to refer to milaradians, a term that had been used for over a hundred years and on thousands of weapons sights prior to the guys at WTBN using milradians instead of mils like the rest of the military. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Actually, artillery and tanks,especially,use mils differently. What they are referring to is a gunner's mil, not a miliradian. A gunner's mil is 1/6400 part of a circle. So there are 17.778 mils per degree. There are 17.453 miliradians per degree. Russian and some other armies use different # of mils per degree. There is no such thing as a gunners mil, its a mil or a NATO Mil. The Russian system is called the DC system and is 1/6000 of a circle. The Mil has been used by European militaries since the late 1800s and entered US military service in 1904 when we bought French Pantels, it also used on various other sights, compasses and on tripods. The shooting community has misappropriated the term Mil to refer to milaradians, a term that had been used for over a hundred years and on thousands of weapons sights prior to the guys at WTBN using milradians instead of mils like the rest of the military. How did they get 1/6,000? There are always double the PIE amounts of radius around a circle........or 6.28 times the radius and 3.14 times the diameter across the circle. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:24:26 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh shoot!!!, I didn't know that. For those who can't get it online, I will be glad to email you it. Coming your way D-bass. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It says I have to have a facebook or join with email, last I did that I got spammed horrible. PDF Please? Jason |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:36:31 AM EDT
[#41]
Hey thanks, I just retrived the new and older version with my scribed app. I read through the newer one 27 pages, it looks and reads well. Good explanation of the MOA.
Solid work. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:42:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryHow did they get 1/6,000? There are always double the PIE amounts of radius around a circle........or 6.28 times the radius and 3.14 times the diameter across the circle.  |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 8:45:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They artificially divid a circle into however many "mils" they want, whether it's 1/6000, 1/6400, 1/6300 etc. They then use trigonometry to figure out the equations for distance measurements. In 2007 when I first wrote my papers on the subject, I actually did it on both the "true mil" and what some called the "military mil" (1/6400). When I called the scope manufactures up to find out which one they used, (many didn't really know at first and had to research it) they all said they used the real or "true mil" in their scopes. Therefore, I rewrote it on just the "true" mil version. I might have an old copy of it. I'll see if I can't fetch out a picture of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How did they get 1/6,000? There are always double the PIE amounts of radius around a circle........or 6.28 times the radius and 3.14 times the diameter across the circle. Thanks........I am assuming the Russians just made 6 equal triangles out of a circle and 1,000 mils per each triangle..........which gave them 1/6000 per mil. Just arbitrary I assume. Also........if you have a guy you know is, or assume is, 2 meters tall and he covers 2 mils on your target you would know he was 1,000 meters distant.............right? ETA: Thanks for the update!! I like the non Russian one (true mil) better.........easier math wise IMHO. Your update shows the height of the target in yards in our system is what is used rather than in meters...........I always assumed meters.........thanks again!! |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:03:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks........I am assuming the Russians just made 6 equal triangles out of a circle and 1,000 mils per each triangle..........which gave them 1/6000 per mil. Just arbitrary I assume. Also........if you have a guy you know is, or assume is, 2 meters tall and he covers 2 mils on your target you would know he was 1,000 meters distant.............right? ETA: Thanks for the update!! I like the non Russian one better.........easier math wise IMHO. Your update shows the height of the target in yards in our system is what is used rather than in meters...........I always assumed meters.........thanks again!! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How did they get 1/6,000? There are always double the PIE amounts of radius around a circle........or 6.28 times the radius and 3.14 times the diameter across the circle. Thanks........I am assuming the Russians just made 6 equal triangles out of a circle and 1,000 mils per each triangle..........which gave them 1/6000 per mil. Just arbitrary I assume. Also........if you have a guy you know is, or assume is, 2 meters tall and he covers 2 mils on your target you would know he was 1,000 meters distant.............right? ETA: Thanks for the update!! I like the non Russian one better.........easier math wise IMHO. Your update shows the height of the target in yards in our system is what is used rather than in meters...........I always assumed meters.........thanks again!! Yes, using the 4th equation down on page-25 of the short version, you would get 1000 meters distance to him. P.S. I hope I'm not that guy that I just helped you range.  |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:04:58 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
................. Yes, using the 4th equation down on page-25 of the short version, you would get 1000 meters distance to him. P.S. I hope I'm not that guy that I just helped you range.
No, no.........you are just affirming things I assumed...........nice to know I was right on something for a change.
ETA: But now I don't know how the heck our military got 1/6,400? 6.4 triangles per circle? 
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:07:27 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryYour update shows the height of the target in yards in our system is what is used rather than in meters...........I always assumed meters.........thanks again!! Remember, mils are independent of the units used. They express a ratio of the arc to the radius in whatever units you prefer. See pages 5-7 of the short version. Edit: |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:10:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Remember, mils are independent of the units used. They express a ratio of the arc to the radius in whatever units you prefer. See pages 5-7 of the short version. Edit: RDak, Roger. Sorry I misunderstood. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your update shows the height of the target in yards in our system is what is used rather than in meters...........I always assumed meters.........thanks again!! Remember, mils are independent of the units used. They express a ratio of the arc to the radius in whatever units you prefer. See pages 5-7 of the short version. Edit: RDak, Roger. Sorry I misunderstood. Got it.......................thanks for affirming all this stuff..........I never really knew for sure at all. I was just going by what I thought the math was.........had no idea if it was correct. |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:13:55 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryETA: But now I don't know how the heck our military got 1/6,400? 6.4 triangles per circle? They worked backwards. They just divided up the circle into 6400 small sections they called "mils", then figured out via trigonometry what each of those "mils" equaled and came up with an equation. That's how I did it way back in '08 (see my pic posted a few above of that original paper). |
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:14:46 AM EDT
[#49]
tag for later
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Posted: 5/23/2015 9:15:43 AM EDT
[#50]
Awesome thread. I'm just starting to learn to range targets. This couldn't have come at a better time.
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