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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:39:43 AM EDT
[#1]
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For instance, I didn't know what barrel regulation was, now I do. I wouldn't have even had an inkling that it was a "thing", but now I know, and it makes sense. I don't shoot clay though, so I'm totally not surprised I don't know anything about it. 
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I've had this same question kicking around in the back of my mind for a long time. Question answered, and some others I didn't know to ask.  You clearly know to not seek answers on GD. I only ask questions here that I know the answer to.  For instance, I didn't know what barrel regulation was, now I do. I wouldn't have even had an inkling that it was a "thing", but now I know, and it makes sense. I don't shoot clay though, so I'm totally not surprised I don't know anything about it.
If you're in east texas come shoot with us and try it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:20:13 AM EDT
[#2]
This thread needs more pics
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:21:09 AM EDT
[#3]
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Here's my safe queen, a Beretta 686 Onyx used for skeet, sporting clays, and hunting. You guys who think a pump or an autoloader can do the same thing just don't get it. 
<a href="http://s729.photobucket.com/user/msc182/media/a9352593.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww298/msc182/a9352593.jpg</a> Sexy 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:51:08 AM EDT
[#4]
A nice O/U is a piece of art. My AR is my bitch.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:35:25 AM EDT
[#5]
Question, although a tiny bit off topic. What are the advantages or disadvantages of having an O/U with a space (where you can see light through) between the barrels lengthwise and one that has no space and the barrels are sealed/welded together on top of each other the full length of the metal? Is one more expensive and/or better than the other? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:42:26 AM EDT
[#6]
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Question, although a tiny bit off topic. What are the advantages or disadvantages of having an O/U with a space (where you can see light through) between the barrels lengthwise and one that has no space and the barrels are sealed/welded together on top of each other the full length of the metal? Is one more expensive and/or better than the other? Weight and balance, and sometimes to adjust POI with different barrel hangers. It is not correlated to cost. I have seen $1200 Beretta 686 Essentials with it, as well as $30k Krieghoffs. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:44:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Field guns benefit from closed sideribs because they don't hang up on brush and get filled with stuff that is hard to clean out. Target guns seem to feature open sideribs. Possibly better ventilation and a little less prone to being blown around shooting in the wind. Some higher end guns like the kreighoffs have changeable barrel hangers so you can adjust the poi of the bottom bbl.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:45:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Thanks guys! |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:50:31 AM EDT
[#9]
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Here's my safe queen, a Beretta 686 Onyx used for skeet, sporting clays, and hunting. You guys who think a pump or an autoloader can do the same thing just don't get it.
<a href="http://s729.photobucket.com/user/msc182/media/a9352593.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww298/msc182/a9352593.jpg</a> Bought mine off the used rack with the hang tags still on it. 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:53:29 AM EDT
[#10]
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I saw a nice Rizzini for sale for $28,000. I really wanted to buy it, but I don't shoot skeet nor do I hunt waterfowl. I could not hide the purchase from Crabby, so I never bought the gun But it was so beautiful that I really wanted it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I saw a nice Rizzini for sale for $28,000. I really wanted to buy it, but I don't shoot skeet nor do I hunt waterfowl. I could not hide the purchase from Crabby, so I never bought the gun But it was so beautiful that I really wanted it. I borrowed a Rizzini for a round of Sporting Clays when I started shooting that game. That was a great gun, but I wasn't ready to buy it for $5k. A K-80 sporting gun I shot a couple of years back was the best I've handled. My main 12 gauge is a 525 Sporting, and I reckon I'll continue shooting it, although I get an urge for a gun with 32 inch barrels, I don't miss targets due to barrel length. Which brings up a point about great guns that is lost on most that don't shoot shotgun sports, that many of the features and tweaks are added to make the task of shooting great scores with consistency easier, getting the gun out of the way and putting the burden of performance onto the shooter. The guy that shoots a round of skeet or a half box of clay pigeons behind the barn a couple of times a year won't get it until he's shooting at least 100 targets in a single outing every week with 200 to 300 rounds on many weekends. 
Anyway, target shotgun threads here are exactly like watching entire bands of retards banging on drums, mostly drums made out of cardboard boxes and empty coffee cans. Quoted:
Here's my safe queen, a Beretta 686 Onyx used for skeet, sporting clays, and hunting. You guys who think a pump or an autoloader can do the same thing just don't get it.
<a href="http://s729.photobucket.com/user/msc182/media/a9352593.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww298/msc182/a9352593.jpg</a> Those Black Onyx guns were the sleeper value when they were in production. Try to find one for sale now at anywhere near their price when they were new. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:56:59 AM EDT
[#11]
I have a couple O/U's and when I look at my Browning Citori it is a work of art. The function, fit and finish are all top notch.
I average about the same shooting trap with the Citori as I do with my Benelli Vinci. The Browning just looks prettier doing it.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:01:32 AM EDT
[#12]
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IIRC, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is $3.5 Million new. And it doesn't do anything a Smart Car doesn't do too Um, the Veyron goes fast, handles, and gets tail. you sir, have failed. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:12:56 AM EDT
[#13]
I like to tell this story in these threads... makes the shotgun guys wince.
A local high end gun collector was telling me a about his friend getting stopped in OH coming back from an auction. The buddy had a pair of Holland & Hollands worth about $250k in the car. There was an issue with a failure to appear warrant for a traffic violation. The man was briefly detained and his guns were taken as well. After his lawyer sorted out the whole clerical error he got the guns back and they had an evidence # engraved in the top of each one. This led to a lengthy lawsuit... which the collector won. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:56:39 AM EDT
[#14]
I have a few shotguns from a 870, Remington 1100, Beretta 391, and a Browning Citori 625 Sporting. There really is not much of a difference in scores between the autos and the O/U. All you need is a fitting and some practice. I end up getting the O/U because I was tired of picking up the hulls for reloading.
Most of it is in people's heads. Also modern machining has reduced the time needed to make a quality O/U. Quality as being able to reliably shoot, and shoot straight. Fancy wood and engraving does nothing for one's score. There's the internet bits 'o truth for you guys. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:12:10 AM EDT
[#15]
These $1000 to $2000 guns are considered entry level by clay shooters. Expensive starts at about $20k and goes up from there.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:18:08 AM EDT
[#16]
My game guns.
Top is my German 6 1/4lb BLE 12ga Bottom is my English sidelock hammergun 10ga. (Waterfowl) Shown wearing its Austrian(Lindner made) set of barrels. 
My clays guns. 1931 Browning Superposed. 32" barrels with step rib. Double/Single Triggers 
Classic pigeon gun with chokes of .050" in both barrels. Miller Single Trigger. 
And for those of you who say it can't be done. We broke a few clays that day on a break from grouse hunting. 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:22:02 AM EDT
[#17]
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IIRC, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is $3.5 Million new. And it doesn't do anything a Smart Car doesn't do too Drop panties, win races, gets you into the best clubs. You're wrong Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:32:09 AM EDT
[#18]
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I average about the same shooting trap with the Citori as I do with my Benelli Vinci. The Browning just looks prettier doing it. And you don't have to chase hulls all over the range. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:33:22 AM EDT
[#19]
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I like to tell this story in these threads... makes the shotgun guys wince. A local high end gun collector was telling me a about his friend getting stopped in OH coming back from an auction. The buddy had a pair of Holland & Hollands worth about $250k in the car. There was an issue with a failure to appear warrant for a traffic violation. The man was briefly detained and his guns were taken as well. After his lawyer sorted out the whole clerical error he got the guns back and they had an evidence # engraved in the top of each one. This led to a lengthy lawsuit... which the collector won. Yup. I'm wincing. What kind of idiot would take an electropencil to an H&H? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:44:25 AM EDT
[#20]
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And you don't have to chase hulls all over the range. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I average about the same shooting trap with the Citori as I do with my Benelli Vinci. The Browning just looks prettier doing it. And you don't have to chase hulls all over the range. Our Club has people to pick those up. 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:45:12 AM EDT
[#21]
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My game guns. Top is my German 6 1/4lb BLE 12ga Bottom is my English sidelock hammergun 10ga. (Waterfowl) Shown wearing its Austrian(Lindner made) set of barrels. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/Klimpke/DSCN3045.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/Klimpke/DSCN3047.jpg My clays guns. 1931 Browning Superposed. 32" barrels with step rib. Double/Single Triggers http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/P1060910.jpg Classic pigeon gun with chokes of .050" in both barrels. Miller Single Trigger. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/AE%20Fox/P1030209-1.jpg And for those of you who say it can't be done. We broke a few clays that day on a break from grouse hunting. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/UP%202007%20Cast%20and%20Blast/P1030144-1.jpg OMG RUSTEDACE MEME. EVERYTHING SHOTGUN DO, M4 DO BETTERS! That trajectory looks.......um.....optimistic. I'll assume you calculated runout and population density though.... |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:48:50 AM EDT
[#22]
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These $1000 to $2000 guns are considered entry level by clay shooters. Expensive starts at about $20k and goes up from there. Its kind of embarrassing to see people bitch about shotgun prices on here. We have tons of guys that pay $3000+ for Wilson 1911's, $4000 for Larue rifles, and hardly shoot time. We also have guys with $20k wrapped up in a dozen random AR's that don't get shot and are just put together as their owners find good deals on "parts". Just random mish-mash frankenguns and whole safes of them. They are also the same people that pipe up that they would never be able to afford a to play in NFA land. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:53:52 AM EDT
[#23]
I said the same thing until I picked up a high end Beretta OU, damn thing felt like it aimed itself. It was balanced to the max and just felt natural unlike anything I had ever fired shotgun wise. Not sure what model it was but it was nice and looked expensive
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:55:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My game guns. Top is my German 6 1/4lb BLE 12ga Bottom is my English sidelock hammergun 10ga. (Waterfowl) Shown wearing its Austrian(Lindner made) set of barrels. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/Klimpke/DSCN3045.jpg http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/Klimpke/DSCN3047.jpg My clays guns. 1931 Browning Superposed. 32" barrels with step rib. Double/Single Triggers http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Guns/P1060910.jpg Classic pigeon gun with chokes of .050" in both barrels. Miller Single Trigger. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/AE%20Fox/P1030209-1.jpg And for those of you who say it can't be done. We broke a few clays that day on a break from grouse hunting. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/UP%202007%20Cast%20and%20Blast/P1030144-1.jpg Man, that German gun looks nice.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:57:18 AM EDT
[#25]
My S&W side-by-side twenty is the only gun I own that ducks and grouse seem to WANT to get shot by.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 12:16:34 PM EDT
[#26]
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Yup. I'm wincing. What kind of idiot would take an electropencil to an H&H? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I like to tell this story in these threads... makes the shotgun guys wince. A local high end gun collector was telling me a about his friend getting stopped in OH coming back from an auction. The buddy had a pair of Holland & Hollands worth about $250k in the car. There was an issue with a failure to appear warrant for a traffic violation. The man was briefly detained and his guns were taken as well. After his lawyer sorted out the whole clerical error he got the guns back and they had an evidence # engraved in the top of each one. This led to a lengthy lawsuit... which the collector won. Yup. I'm wincing. What kind of idiot would take an electropencil to an H&H? Procedures slavishly followed by people tasked with identifying evidence are the cause. Common sense is absent, and coupled with a lack of the most basic knowledge and curiosity leads to vibra pencil marking of valuable property that does not belong to the government. "In the top" might be recoverable by hiding the marks under engraving or stippling. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 12:32:46 PM EDT
[#27]
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Accuracy? Noignorant Durability? Noignorant Reliability? Noignorant Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes So I'm correct about the fancy carvings on the stock? 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 12:39:13 PM EDT
[#28]
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So I'm correct about the fancy carvings on the stock? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? Noignorant Durability? Noignorant Reliability? Noignorant Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes So I'm correct about the fancy carvings on the stock? Hehe |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:02:15 PM EDT
[#29]
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Procedures slavishly followed by people tasked with identifying evidence are the cause. Common sense is absent, and coupled with a lack of the most basic knowledge and curiosity leads to vibra pencil marking of valuable property that does not belong to the government. "In the top" might be recoverable by hiding the marks under engraving or stippling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I like to tell this story in these threads... makes the shotgun guys wince. A local high end gun collector was telling me a about his friend getting stopped in OH coming back from an auction. The buddy had a pair of Holland & Hollands worth about $250k in the car. There was an issue with a failure to appear warrant for a traffic violation. The man was briefly detained and his guns were taken as well. After his lawyer sorted out the whole clerical error he got the guns back and they had an evidence # engraved in the top of each one. This led to a lengthy lawsuit... which the collector won. Yup. I'm wincing. What kind of idiot would take an electropencil to an H&H? Procedures slavishly followed by people tasked with identifying evidence are the cause. Common sense is absent, and coupled with a lack of the most basic knowledge and curiosity leads to vibra pencil marking of valuable property that does not belong to the government. "In the top" might be recoverable by hiding the marks under engraving or stippling. I bet the city enjoyed getting a bill for H&Hs finest engraving.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:07:20 PM EDT
[#30]
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I have a few shotguns from a 870, Remington 1100, Beretta 391, and a Browning Citori 625 Sporting. There really is not much of a difference in scores between the autos and the O/U. All you need is a fitting and some practice. I end up getting the O/U because I was tired of picking up the hulls for reloading. Most of it is in people's heads. Also modern machining has reduced the time needed to make a quality O/U. Quality as being able to reliably shoot, and shoot straight. Fancy wood and engraving does nothing for one's score. There's the internet bits 'o truth for you guys. Yet the cheap guns still can't stop falling apart no matter how much CNC and modern metals are involved in them..... I REALLY want the new 2014+ ruger red labels to last like a 686 or Citori |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:33:26 PM EDT
[#31]
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The difference is like buying a suit at Men's Wearhouse and having a suit hand tailored. This post nails it |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:39:38 PM EDT
[#32]
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Google "Purdey shotguns" if you want to see real coin. Think more than a house. The museum that I volunteer at displays a Purdy,and a Greener, I frequently mention that I could pay the note of on my house with them. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:43:37 PM EDT
[#33]
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The difference is like buying a suit at Men's Wearhouse and having a suit hand tailored. Yep. Swings and points well. I don't have anything high end. Just browning over and under. I've shot perazzis, krieghoffs etc. The Browning is good enough for me. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 3:49:33 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryHoly FUcK!!!!! Digweed is a machine. 130yds. Crazy. I've broken targets at 50-60 yards in FITASC but I couldn't do it routinely, especially now. amazing. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:02:18 PM EDT
[#35]
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OMG RUSTEDACE MEME. EVERYTHING SHOTGUN DO, M4 DO BETTERS! That trajectory looks.......um.....optimistic. I'll assume you calculated runout and population density though.... We were shooting tracers. (Just stopped raining after almost two days.) This did help figure out lead. No holdover needed..... Runout and population density? In that direction, his nearest neighbor is over eight miles away....... |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:06:39 PM EDT
[#36]
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I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes I always have thought of sporting clays O/Us as the height of firearms snobbery, even more than the "Gotta be a Larue or Noveske or you ain't shit" bunch or posers in the AR world. Owning brand X or Y gun does not mean you're automatically a better shooter. It just means you have more money to spend on a gun. You sound jealous. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:09:21 PM EDT
[#37]
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Man, that German gun looks nice. Thank you. That wasn't always the case. I call this shotgun "Klimpke" because that name was carved into the side panel when I bought it. Used it like that for a lot of years. A friend who is 35+ year member of the ACGG fixed up the wood for me. OLD picture of the before: 
I am actually planning on reblacking the barrels in the next week or so. I have a Fox CE in my shop for the same work. Whenever possible, I slip my own work in when I can. The barrels now have Briley thin walls. I sent the barrels to Carlson's to have the typical German tight chokes opened and they almost ruined the barrels. Briley was the only company willing to attempt to make them "right". |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:12:25 PM EDT
[#38]
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Translated - "I don't own one"....  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes Yep |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:14:25 PM EDT
[#39]
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"In the top" might be recoverable by hiding the marks under engraving or stippling. I want to see a Holland and Holland with stippling!  
They may have found someone in the USA to polish out the vibro pencil and reblacked the barrels, but I guarantee you, if they went back to H&H, they would not cover such a travesty with engraving. They would replace the barrel sets. Lots of $$$. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:15:16 PM EDT
[#40]
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I haven't been on here much today, but you win the "stupid statement of the day" award! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices. A nice semi-auto shotgun is better period. I haven't been on here much today, but you win the "stupid statement of the day" award! Again........yep |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:49:27 PM EDT
[#41]
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I have a few shotguns from a 870, Remington 1100, Beretta 391, and a Browning Citori 625 Sporting. There really is not much of a difference in scores between the autos and the O/U. All you need is a fitting and some practice. I end up getting the O/U because I was tired of picking up the hulls for reloading. Most of it is in people's heads. Also modern machining has reduced the time needed to make a quality O/U. Quality as being able to reliably shoot, and shoot straight. Fancy wood and engraving does nothing for one's score. There's the internet bits 'o truth for you guys. 15 bucks would have bought a shell catcher! |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
David McKay Brown laughs at you.
 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 5:12:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread needs more pics Potato photo of my O/U's 
Citori Special Field 12ga Citori XS Sporting 12ga Citori SuperLight 16ga Ruger Red Label 20ga Ruger Red Label 28ga CZ RedHead 410 The Citori XS Sporting is certainly the nicest, but the 28ga Red Label is my favorite. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 5:34:00 PM EDT
[#44]
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Potato photo of my O/U's http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/robertlee3rd/83D571B0-320D-4A19-A720-634A80C4E256.jpg Citori Special Field 12ga Citori XS Sporting 12ga Citori SuperLight 16ga Ruger Red Label 20ga Ruger Red Label 28ga CZ RedHead 410 The Citori XS Sporting is certainly the nicest, but the 28ga Red Label is my favorite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This thread needs more pics Potato photo of my O/U's http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/robertlee3rd/83D571B0-320D-4A19-A720-634A80C4E256.jpg Citori Special Field 12ga Citori XS Sporting 12ga Citori SuperLight 16ga Ruger Red Label 20ga Ruger Red Label 28ga CZ RedHead 410 The Citori XS Sporting is certainly the nicest, but the 28ga Red Label is my favorite.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 5:34:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Translated - "I don't own one".... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes There is an upside. Ignorance is a curable disease. It does, however, take effort. Popping a pill won't do it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 5:46:07 PM EDT
[#46]
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Yet the cheap guns still can't stop falling apart no matter how much CNC and modern metals are involved in them..... I REALLY want the new 2014+ ruger red labels to last like a 686 or Citori Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have a few shotguns from a 870, Remington 1100, Beretta 391, and a Browning Citori 625 Sporting. There really is not much of a difference in scores between the autos and the O/U. All you need is a fitting and some practice. I end up getting the O/U because I was tired of picking up the hulls for reloading. Most of it is in people's heads. Also modern machining has reduced the time needed to make a quality O/U. Quality as being able to reliably shoot, and shoot straight. Fancy wood and engraving does nothing for one's score. There's the internet bits 'o truth for you guys. Yet the cheap guns still can't stop falling apart no matter how much CNC and modern metals are involved in them..... I REALLY want the new 2014+ ruger red labels to last like a 686 or Citori And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:02:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're in east texas come shoot with us and try it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've had this same question kicking around in the back of my mind for a long time. Question answered, and some others I didn't know to ask. You clearly know to not seek answers on GD. I only ask questions here that I know the answer to. For instance, I didn't know what barrel regulation was, now I do. I wouldn't have even had an inkling that it was a "thing", but now I know, and it makes sense. I don't shoot clay though, so I'm totally not surprised I don't know anything about it. If you're in east texas come shoot with us and try it. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:15:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With few exceptions. $1500-$2500 gets you a gun correctly indexed, a solid receiver expect it to go 100k to 150k rounds with no problems , good over all balance, and pleasing but minimalist aesthetics on the lower end guns. $2500-$4500 gets you a gun correctly indexed, a solid receiver, depending on the design some receivers can see 500k for multiple barrel sets with no issues, excellent to wand like balance, and pleasing aesthetics. Some of the higher end guns in that bracket the wood work and and receiver engraving are works of art. $4500-$16000 gets you all of the above and starts to branch out into the specialized custom competition guns and guns that are works of art. Some of the field guns in these categories have engraving that takes years to complete. The higher end mechanisms in this price are like fine watches. $16000-$100,000+ The locking mechanisms and craftsmanship goes beyond perfection. Smithing techniques that take lifetimes to perfect and years to produce a product are used. Specific engravers are commissioned to do the engraving. I have heard of some guns taking 10 years plus to engrave. Listen to this guy. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:17:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices. A nice semi-auto shotgun is better period. You are correct, doubles are not for you. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:28:54 PM EDT
[#50]
So Browning 725 or Beretta 686?
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