If the Mason organization has a somewhat Biblical basis why put so much emphasis on works? No one can save themselves from hell by works.

1. Okay, there are studies, rituals, the Craft, levels of knowledge to be revealed, etc.  Seriously, rituals?  Craft with a capital C?

KInda sounds esoteric, occult, y'all must know that.

2. I don't like the idea of fraternities or any kind of mutual-assistance pact where wink-wink trumps merit.  Maybe I misunderstand the goals of Masonry, but that's a standing risk for organizations secretive by intent.

How does the world benefit when you become a Mason, or is it mostly a personal-benefit thing?

Next to the whole Freemasonry is a religion thing, this is the biggest misconception about the fraternity.  Yes, we use the building of King Solomon's Temple to teach our members ethical and moral lessons.  There is absolutely no correlation between Masonry and seeking salvation.  None.  Where does that even come from?  Yes, Masons believe in the immortality of the soul.  So what?  There is no emphasis on doing good works to gain salvation.

We participate in charitable activities because it is the right thing to do.  How is assisting and relieving the distress of others ever a bad thing?   Freemasons give 1 1/2 million dollars to various charities every day.  In exchange we ask for nothing in return.  Find another organization that does that.

1.  If we spelled it with an upper case "K", we'd get sued.

2.  Secretive?  Last time I looked our buildings are clearly marked, pictures and manes of our members are everywhere, pretty much everyone wears a ring and we're communicating on an open internet forum.  Secret, really?  Oh, you mean you can't sit in a meeting.  You can't sit in Disneyland either, without a ticket.

The world benefits by the help, aid, assistance and relief I can do through our charities.  I benefit by learning how to be a better person.

Sorry, I didn't follow this up but I posted and forgot about it till this recent bump.

That isn't quite what I meant. I wouldn't join a church and expect them to no longer preach about god. I am not asking to join as I do not hold that one core belief that you require, and I don't believe a relationship can be built on a lie.  

Yes as you said I am on the outside looking in, as I always will be, so I will never have the perspective from the inside. My loss to never be able to explore one of the more interesting fraternal organizations out there.

ETA:  Hang on -- just posted and saw you had a second post.  Give me a chance to read and see if I need to change my post here.
ETA2: Thanks for the additional information.  I don't want this to turn into a needy/demanding answer-this-now exchange, so I'm out.  Thanks.
                             
Yes, secretive, but understand that's not an attack but an observation.  If I want to learn about the Boy Scouts, how they do things, what it takes to earn different ranks, I can buy a book.  I don't have to be a Boy Scout already to get that book.  Link to your book, please?  The official one, with the rites and stuff.  That's what I mean.   Basic information exists, but honestly there's not much out there.

In terms of being a better person, great goal, seriously.  But -- and this is in the spirit of the thread -- I have no idea at all how Masonry works to make people better.  A religious sect/cult makes that same case to its members.  The Boy Scouts make that case to their members.  And I can write a charitable contribution without knowing any secret handshakes.

FWIW, I don't really have an attitude about this; and I understand there are plenty of axes to grind being carried, so you engage warily.  I wandered into the forum, saw the thread, figured I'd use the opportunity to learn more.  I appreciate the time you took responding.  Be well.

Your link to the article is all the info that there is.... Its not basic info. that's all the info.    The only thing left out was the body of the ritual and the passwords and handgrips.  You have to join to find out those.
@vim   I didn't start this to argue with anyone.  I/we welcome your comments and questions.

FWIW, I was not thinking there was argumentation going on, but only, perhaps, some caution due to the existence of trolls.  Why engage seriously if someone is only clowning around.  And I definitely do that in GD.

The password and handshakes to ID each other, eh.  But the body of the ritual sounds like that's where what Freemasonry really is can be examined/understood.

"Have to join to find out" -- clearly enough men over the years have done so.  The outcomes of those individual decisions, who knows.  But it's a lot like "Put your hand in the box to find out what's in it."  For me, trusting God and trusting men are two very different things.  Hard-won experience is not lightly or wisely discarded.  And I don't believe I know a single Mason in real life (not that it would be entirely smart to extrapolate impressions of one person in one place to come to some statistically invalid conclusion about Masonry generally ;^)

Anyway, thanks again.  I appreciate the time and information.

I bet you do.  You hang out in the outdoors section a lot...  Theres a bunch of Masons in there, many without the icons,  and I bet you theres a bunch at your gun club too.

No, in fact my comment does not contradict itself. I can see where in your eyes it would, since you choose to use the lower case G when describing God.  And your statement in and of itself shows a lack of understanding God versus man.

So if some churches do something unscriptural, that makes it technically true for all churches.  Who knew?  I can work with this logic.  

The few masons I have dealt with in person were liars and cheats, so by your logical I can say masons are liars and cheats, and be technically correct.

If that works for you and the OP, it works for me.



























I don't really believe that all masons are liars and cheats, for that matter I suspect the level of liars and cheats is on par with Baptists, but I have to work with the logic presented.

I thank you for your service and your church thanks you for the donations.
I give at my church because  I want to.  I'm Presbyterian, they have never asked for or required money to belong..
I give more to the Masonic charities, because I know they do much more good than any church charity can ever do.

God looks down on me and loves me either way, as he does you.

Baptist, And How do you figure I am offended?  Because I don't worship at the idol of free masonry?  Or because I recognize Beer Slayer is an Anti Theist?

You made a factually incorrect statement.  Beer slayer justified and got his free digs in at Christianity, which I am now realizing explains some things that are allowed to happen on ARFCOM

LOL, Respond to you or Beer Slayer with anything but praise for your all mighty free masonry and one is a troll and easily offended.  That my friend is rich coming from the easily offended.

But hey this is the "Non-Masons Official ask-a-question or comment Thread"*





















































*unless we don't like what you are saying and of course you have to agree with us about the great wonderfulness of Free Masonry other wise you are a troll and easily offended

Nice edit

I respect masonry but I've had some members who have put me off by it.
How do yall look at members who seem to care more about putting stickers and mason shit all over the place more than actually living like your values say?
A few guys at work are like that.

I would honestly like to know what that is.  I've been doing this a while and I've never worshiped or seen an idol.  I've been honored to receive many of the "higher" degrees and orders.  I've been a Grand Presiding Officer of a body and next year I will be of another body.  I'm not one of those lower guys that's been duped by the higher guys.  I am deeply honored to have been elevated to leadership positions that if there was duping to be done, I'd be doing it.  

Nadda.  

I'd really like to know what you believe the "idol of free masonry" is and why.  I'd love to have an honest discussion.

First, I have my doubts that anyone at the higher levels of freemasonry wants to have an honest discussion about freemasonry and it replacement of God with the Great Architect of the Universe.  the Evidence is right here in this thread.  OP, Beer Slayer and others have made it clear, Agree with you all about how great Free masonry is or one is a troll and easily offended.

I will openly admit, having been born into a cult with all kinds of "secret" rituals and practices and waking up to the folly and foolishness of the secret nature of the these type of organizations, I have a strong bias against them.  Whether it is Mormonism, Scientology, Freemasonry, or other.  Anything found on the internet that describes freemasonry in any other term but perfect, you and others deny is part of freemasonry.  Same thing with the cult i grew up in.  They will deny those negative reports, yet those reports describe things that I partook of as a child and teenager.  Mind you nothing sexual, although I believe there are some of those cults that do partake in those kind of disgusting ungodly things.  The things I participated in were preached to me as Scriptural based, When in Fact when I became an adult and read and studied the scriptures, those rituals and practices are not found in scripture.  They were a creation of either the founder or one of the leaders.  But not scriptural.

And when it came down to it, that last "secret" organization I was a part of other than the cult I grew up in, was the neighbor hood boys hanging out when I was 8.

You are not going to consider it an idol, just as the alcoholic does not consider alcohol an idol, or the smoker, or any number of other things that man puts before God, to include things that are not sinful by nature, but we as individuals or groups place their importance to us above God.

If you and others are moved by what you do in freemasonry, well good for you.  Personally my dealings in and around Freemasons have been less than impressive.  In Freemasonry that makes me a troll and easily offended. LOL

Yup. I thought about it for a few minutes and realize that that was an unfair statement. 

Cool thread.

this thread hasn't been active for a while, so I'm bumping it.

I hope y'all officers who's lodges went dark are enjoying your time off.

Somebody has to do it.

We don't go back till Sept, but school starts in Aug. 

I really don't like the, "we make good men better", thing.  I don't believe we do that.  I believe we give them more opportunity to do what they do, by using the concepts, principles and precepts of Freemasonry.

Masonic philosophy isn't unique.  It's been around since time began.  What is unique is that we move it to the forefront, point these things out and teach men that by recognizing, understanding and applying Masonry's concepts, principles and precepts he makes himself the better man.  That is the true secret of Freemasonry.  We don't "make good men better".  We give good men the tools to make themselves better.

When I was Master we had a visiting Brother from another state.  During dinner he pointed out one of our members and stated he didn't know we let Prince Hall Masons attend our Lodges.  I told him that yes we do, but the man was a member and Officer of the Lodge.

He then told me that in his state, "&!@@{%$'$" aren't allowed.  After he finished eating I showed him the door and told him to never come back.

The Biblical account of the building of King Solomon's Temple is used allegorically to teach a man to build his own moral and spiritual temple.  As King Solomon's Temple was an attempt to build the most perfect place to worship G-d, so should man attempt to build his own perfect internal temple to the glory of G-d.

Freemasonry has nothing to do with salvation or redemption.  We place a heavy emphasis on doing for our fellows and fellow man because it's the right thing to do.  All Freemasons promise, obligate, themselves to do six things.  To help, aid and assist others.  And to never cheat, wrong or defraud them.  Do we always live up to those things?  No.  Sometimes it sucks being human.  Do the vast majority try?  Yes.  Why?  Because we understand that sometimes it sucks being human and we'd like to help.

I am a member of what is known as the York Rite.  The York Rite consists of other Masonic organizations that build upon and enhance what is taught in Symbolic Lodge.  These organizations are Chapters of Royal Arch Masons, Councils of Royal and Select Masters and Commanderies of Knights Templar.  Each of these also have corresponding state and international bodies.  They support local, state, national and international charities.

I'd like to take a moment and expound on four of these charities.  These are not just for Masons.  They provide research and assistance that can, and will, help everyone on earth.  I know that someone will say, "Well, these are just canned talking points."  You'd be correct.  They are.  They're descriptions and talking points that I wrote for a book on Masonic Charities.  I'll be more than happy to further explain these wonderful philanthropies if anyone would like.

Royal Arch Research and Assistance (RARA) is the philanthropy of the General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons, International.  RARA funds research into Central Auditory Processing Disorder (CAPD).  Since its conception in 1974, RARA has been the world’s leading philanthropy dedicated to helping children with CAPD.  Central Auditory Processing Disorder is a hearing problem that affects about 5% of school-aged children.  Children with this condition can't process what they hear in the same way  other kids do because their ears and brain don't fully coordinate. Something interferes with the way the brain recognizes and interprets sounds, especially speech.  Many of the precursor symptoms of auditory processing disorders are seen in some children with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD).  These symptoms include trouble paying attention and remembering information, poor listening skills, difficulty in processing information, behavioral problems, difficulty with comprehending language, and anxiety or confusion in social situations.  With the right therapy, children with CAPD can be successful in school and life.  Early diagnosis is important, because when the condition isn't caught and treated early, a child can have speech and language delays or problems learning in school.

The Cryptic Mason Medical Research Foundation (CMMRF) is the philanthropy of the General Grand Council of Cryptic Masons International.
CMMRF supports the Indiana Center for Vascular Biology and Medicine, (ICVBM), located at the Indiana University School of Medicine and the Richard Roudebush Veteran's Administration Medical Center located at Indianapolis Indiana.  Because blood vessels are important in maintaining the health or repairing almost all tissues, practically all diseases turn out to have a vascular  component connected to their origin or remediation. Diabetes, stroke, poor circulation, heart failure, wound healing, and many other diseases share the common denominator of blood vessels.  Centering our contributions to an organization that addresses so many different health concerns, both nationally and internationally, allows our supporters to share in all these medical advancements, regardless of geography.  Through the advanced and clinical research, conducted by ICVBM and supported by CMMRF, advancements are being made to discover cures for many of today's health problems, prevent major diseases, and finally to save lives. We invite you to become a part of this team and join our partnership in discovery.  This amazing research will impact the lives of every person on Earth.  ICVBM is the premier leader in the future of medicine.

One of the philanthropies of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States of America is the Knights Templar Eye Foundation (KTEF).  The KTEF supports research that can help launch the careers of clinical or basic researchers committed to the prevention and cure of potentially blinding diseases in infants and children.  KTEF supports clinical or basic research on conditions that can or may eventually be treated or prevented. Examples include but are not limited to amblyopia, congenital cataract, congenital glaucoma, retinopathy of prematurity, ocular malformations, congenital nystagmus, and other hereditary eye diseases such as retinal dystrophies or retinoblastoma.

The Knights Templar is often referred to as the, "Christian Arm of Freemasonry".  Templary takes the principles, concepts and precepts of Masonry and teaches them in the context of Chivalric Christian Knighthood.  The Knights Templar Holy Land Pilgrimage provides the opportunity for ordained Christian ministers, who would not otherwise have the ability, to go to the Holy Land.  These ministers have a life changing experience and return to their home congregations and communities rededicated to further the work of our Lord and Savior.

I have my moments.  Unfortunately, they're few and far between.

Right here is why we can't have an open, honest discussion about Freemasonry.  As long as you refuse to try to understand that Freemasonry in no way, shape or form attempts to replace G-d with a "Great Architect of the Universe", it's not possible to have that discussion.  That's not by any fault of the Brothern here.  That's your fault by your close-mindedness.  By referring to G-d as the Great Architect of the Universe, Freemasons can all be on the same sheet of music as to what to call Him.

G-d isn't even the name of G-d.  G-d's name is also known as the Ineffable, or Unutterable, Name.  You'll notice I don't put the "o" in G-d.  I do that out of respect of that tradition.  I'd hardly do that if I worshiped a replacement god.  Note the lower case "g".  There is but one G-d and he isn't lower case anything.

All the "Secret" stuff is on the internet.  It's all right there.  I can't tell you what it is not because it's secret and I'm keeping it from you for our nefarious purposes.  It's solely because I promised not to tell you.

Shit!  I'm next.  

L-O-Freaking-L!!!!!

What is a supreme diety?

It is God.  Who that God is, is up to you.
I always like to say that the relationship between a man and his God is his business. 

The lodge doesn't want to get in the middle of that relationship.  You will not find religious services or worshipping of any kind at any Freemason Lodge. 

So what if you believe in evolution and the big bang, but you're smart enough to realize something didn't come from nothing... so there is a higher power... somewhere... but who/what it is, if it was ever known, has been tainted by mankind so it is best just to live as what you consider good person until you ded? Would that count?

I see you are/were in the military.
you took an oath when you  enlisted or as an officer.

at the end of that oath there was a statement that you probably said and it went like this, "so help me God"
Did you say those words?
If, no then what did you say?
If yes, what God were you thinking about?
Or, did you say it but you knew it was a lie, but you said it, just because that what everyone says?

My grandfather was a 33rd degree Mason.  My father was a 32nd degree Mason.  Both were enrolled in the Manila (Philippines) Lodge shortly after the end of the Second World War.  Both had to wait to be invited.  Even when I was a teenager (in the 1970's), I was told by both my Grandfather and Father that membership was by invitation only.  

It is only in the last decade or so that I have heard the Masons advertising, "If you want to be one, ask one."

When did the change occur?

I have to preface that I am not a mason but I am going thru the application ,voting, and interview phases , and from what I have researched and be told, they as in members/lodge cannot ask you to join, that you have to want to join on your own free will. I would maybe think some of their friends back then may have invited them to a dinner or public event, but to the best of my knowledge its never been like a military or sports recruiter where they come up and seek you out. my personal experience is that my stepfather is a 33rd degree MM that ive been raised by since the age of 3, and have grown up around Masons and Shriners, and even worked for the family that owned Gus the Shriners camel here in FL, and they have not asked me. From my view you kind of have to find it in your own heart and own time in your life to want to join. I finally took the time and effort to want to join after being the sole caretaker of my biological father for the past 8 years (including him almost dying 5 times and a kidney transplant) , and ask my friends who were all part of the same lodge to have me attend the local dinners every 2 weeks and allowed me after a few dinners to submit my application.

Why the secrecy?  Who gives a rip that you would want to have a secret handshake kiss, hug or whatever?