I think this is my first ever topic in the religion forum. I myself am not particularly religious and that's not really a part of this.

While I was in the Philippines a few months ago, I met several members of a church known as Iglesia ni Cristo. At first glance, the translation would lead me to believe it was a spinoff of the Church of Christ that we have here in the US. This is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo

This website has more info about their belief structure:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2848-iglesia-ni-cristo

I'm far from an expert on Christianity but I have a grasp on the basics. What I can figure from this group is they're not exactly as Christian as they claim to be.

They have a lot of odd practices as well. Mandatory attendance of services or you're kicked out. Must marry someone that's a member of the church or you're kicked out. Do something to draw the ire of the local priest or whatever they call him, kicked out.


What say you religion forum types?

Cult? Messed up interpretation but more or less on the level? Totally misguided? Something else?

Possible cult. But no way a true Christian church. Even though all denominations of Christianity  have rules none should be a "my way or the highway type church". Jesus Christ, in his own life and teachings, was much more forgiving then that. Look into Christianity more and find a denomination your comfortable with and give it a try. It helps with all aspects of life and it's FREE !

I was raised in a church that was similar to a cult.  I can tell you that most people think they are
special and everyone else is crazy because that's what they are taught from birth.

Really sad because people will follow almost anything if the presenter is slick enough.

It's pretty much a trend that any "churches" like the one you encountered will celebrate their personal religious standards before they point to Salvation through Jesus Christ.
Bottom line for them, salvation is linked to a non-Biblical system of self defined moral conduct.

Break away from Catholicism. Basically didn't like celibacy or obeying Rome.....so their clergy get married....but ironically are much more heavy handed in their application of obedience than Rome is (as can be seen in the drama of the division within Catholicism between progressive/modernists and conservative/traditionalists whereby religious, deacons, priests, bishops, and cardinals can (and have) gotten away with a wide latitude of behavior and heterodox teaching for YEARS without being called on the carpet.....)

I'm not a Bible scholar by any means, but I've read it a few times. The gist of it is Christians by and large believe that salvation comes through faith, not through actions.

So that puts these guys in a difficult place, if I'm interpreting things correctly.

It still doesn't really answer the question about these guys though. I'm leaning towards wonky cult, brainwashed members and such. Am I wrong?

Are you saying this sect believes this? Because that is a Protestant tenet. Not a Christian belief.

Faith is nothing without works. As is works are nothing without Faith.

This particular group of goofy guys has a belief structure that I can't begin to comprehend.

I'm referencing what I've seen to be a common Christian thing, forgive the piss poor paraphrasing but

I am the way and the truth and the light, nobody gets to heaven but through me - something to that effect? IE faith, not works.

Thanks. Again, that is relatively new belief in some Christian denominations.  I'm not going to start that battle right now though.

are you saying I'm not Christian because I believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone?

And let me clarify, anyone who is truly saved will show good works.  But, we are saved through faith.

It's a quote directly out of the Bible. I just looked it up. Thanks, google!

Pick your translation, it's in all of them:

http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm

Doesn't seem like a "new belief" to me.

No I am not saying you are not a Christian. I am saying that it is not necessarily a Christian belief. Catholics believe what I stated.

New as in the Reformation.

 
Looks like it predates the Reformation. In fact Paul talked about it a lot in Galatians.

James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.



No,  St Paul did not belive in Faith alone.

Yes he did.  That verse in context is speaking of people who follow the law and think they are justified.  Remember the parable of the two men in the temple? One says God I follow all law and thank you I am not like the tax collector....which one was righteous? Works ARE seen in true believers..but to have to do works to earn heaven is not biblical.  Have YOU done enough to be saved? Are you sure?

Abraham was declared righteous by his faith.  Justification through his works.  But he was already righteous with The Lord, and showed works because of it.

 
Ephesians 2:8-9:








You missed Paul's point. He brought up Abraham as he did in Romans 4 and 5:








So is James (Paul didn't write the epistle of James BTW) contradicting Paul? No. What Paul is describing is the actual act of justification, via faith; and James is describing the declared act of justification, that of faith evidenced by works. For instance: someone who had a habitual sin, say porn, get's saved (through faith) then no longer has a desire for that sin, his justification by faith is declared by God via sanctification, and the change in his life. This is affirmed by the quote regarding Abraham being justified by faith (James 2:23). You see, the Bible teaches that we are saved (justified) through faith, then we undergo the process of sanctification by the Holy Spirit; not the other way around.


























 

I can not argue as the MANY Catholic theologians before so here is one with an explanation.

"What is this justification? To be justified means being made righteous, just, holy, and acceptable before God. In other words, the term "justification," in these and other similar New Testament passages, means what Catholics more commonly describe as the change from the "state of sin" to the "state of grace." And the doctrine being taught by Jesus and St. Paul in the above passages is that when we are in the state of sin, and alienated from God, nothing we can do ourselves—none of our "good deeds" or "works"—can earn or merit justification. Receiving the grace of God and the forgiveness of our sins is never a "prize" or "reward" which we deserve because of any supposedly virtuous deeds which we have previously carried out. The reception of grace and justification is always a free and completely unmerited gift. The very word "grace" comes from a Greek word meaning "favour" or "gift."

What does St. Paul mean in telling us that this "justification" comes through faith, or by faith? It is clear that by "faith" the Apostle does not mean any kind of belief whatever: St. James teaches that even the demons have a certain kind of faith or belief, but it certainly does not bring them the grace of God. He says, "you believe in the one God—that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear" (James 2:19). It is very clear from many Scriptural passages that the kind of faith we need for justification is a repentant faith (Lk 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30; Rom 2:4; 1 Cor 7:9-10 etc.). Sorrow for sin and the sincere desire to change are what is missing from the "faith" which even demons and wicked people can have. This repentant faith which leads to justification includes hope in God's mercy, and is itself possible only when the sinner receives actual grace which enables him to turn in contrition towards God's mercy.

Finally, St. Paul's teaching regarding justification by faith rather than by works must not be taken in isolation from other Biblical passages which clearly speak of the sacramental aspect of justification. St. Paul certainly does not regard Baptism as one of the human "works of the law" which cannot justify us; rather it is a "work" of God Himself, which completes the process of justification for one who has never previously been baptized. St. Paul teaches that in Baptism we participate in Christ's death, that this, we receive through this sacrament the grace that Jesus won on the Cross by his death on the Cross; and this enables us to live the new life of his resurrection (Rom 6:3-4). Paul, on one occasion, recalled his own conversion and the role Baptism played in it: Ananias, he recalls, exhorted him shortly after he came to believe in Jesus, saying, "And now why delay? It is time you were baptized and had your sins washed away while invoking his name" (Acts 22:16). St. Peter speaks of "the baptism which saves you now, and which is not the washing off of physical dirt but a pledge made to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pt 3:22. See also Jn 3:5; Mk 16:16). For those who fall from grace because of grave sin after Baptism, the sacrament of Penance is necessary (Jn 20:22-23). Even though one who believes and is perfectly contrite for his or her sins receives the grace of justification in that moment, even before receiving the appropriate sacrament, this grace is only provisional, and is granted only in view of the anticipated sacrament: a sinner who had no intention of receiving that sacrament even while knowing that Christ had commanded it would clearly be lacking in either faith or repentance, and so would not be justified. Moreover, those who believe and repent, but are less than perfectly contrite for their sins, are not justified until the moment they receive the sacrament, which imparts the further grace which they need. (We are talking about the justification of adults here: infant baptism brings in other considerations.)"

link to the rest

There are different definitions used in the above for the same words.  Not really a problem if we define them.  I say saved by grace.  And the first definition fits.  Then they speak of receiving grace...I am not Catholic so that is strange to me.  I have read some on it so I sort of understand..but what we Protestants mean is we are saved by God saying " you are forgiven because Jesus died in your place." Nothing I did.  I could never earn it.  It is by Grace.  That is the saved part.  We think Jesus did it all and we will go from earth to heaven.  I think the difference here is with purgatory.  Here grace changes definitions.  If we lose some grace we need to be made right.  I'm not talking of that.  

Justification and sanctification are after being saved by grace.  Yes they will happen.  And I also believe that people who say they are Christian and show no works , probably aren't.

And I'll agree believing in Jesus doesn't save someone.

I'm getting more and more information.

I've just learned that the rank and file members are discouraged from, if not explicitly prohibited from reading the bible.

What kind of "church" especially a Christian one would engage in such shenanigans?

I suspect it's because reading the bible would open members eyes to the fact that the message the church teaches is in direct conflict with the bible they claim to follow.

This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

Yeah, huge red flag there.

 

Do you have friends in it?

Less now than before I started asking questions. 2 that I know of have called shenanigans on their system.

Maybe it's wrong of me to cast doubt on their beliefs but this whole thing stinks.

 
Some people truly want to follow God and get sucked into a bad group out of ignorance. Others want to follow something other than God; but pretend they are. Either way, there is nothing wrong with presenting people with the truth.