Pistol permits are a financial boon to the Madison County sheriff's department but that's not why Sheriff Blake Dorning opposes a Senate bill that would eliminate them.

"We hear it's just a money thing," Dorning said Wednesday. "No, it's not. It's a life and death safety issue for our men and women because the equipment we're able to provide them with drastically makes them more efficient and more able to address the situations that they come into every day."

Officials also met head-on the issue of money associated with the permit fees, saying that the permits yield about $700,000 annually to the department.

"There's been a lot of misconception about where does the money go," Chief Deputy David Jernigan said. "I've heard over the last several days, the money goes in the sheriff's pocket, I've heard it's a slush fund.


Jernigan said pistol permit fees are not an infringement on the Second Amendment, which provides for the right to bear arms. Jernigan it's no different than paying a fee for a drivers license, marriage license, hunting license or car registration.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2017/02/its_not_just_a_money_thing_she.html#incart_river_home

It's all about the money and someone needs a refresher course on the Bill Of Rights

Which makes me think they are actually concerned it might pass this time.

http://www.madisoncountysheriffal.org/

Blake Dorning, Madison County Sheriff
[email protected]
256-532-3416


I think you guys should remind the good sheriff what the Bill of Rights actually means.


I got into trouble the last time I did it.

An Alabama Senate committee today approved a bill that would repeal the requirement for a permit to carry a concealed handgun.

The Senate Judiciary Committee approved the bill by Sen. Gerald Allen, R-Tuscaloosa, by a vote of 6-3 after a public hearing.

It moves to the Senate for consideration.

Gun rights advocates spoke in favor of the bill, saying people should not have to get a permit to exercise their Second Amendment right.

Law enforcement officers who spoke in opposition to the bill said the permit requirement is an important tool for them.

The vote was split along party lines.

Voting for the bill were Sens. Greg Reed, R-Jasper; Clay Scofield, R-Guntersville; Larry Stutts, R-Tuscumbia; Cam Ward, R-Alabaster; Tom Whatley, R-Auburn; and Phil Williams, R-Rainbow City.

Voting against it were Sens. Linda Coleman-Madison; Hank Sanders, D-Selma and Bobby Singleton, D-Greensboro.

Singleton vowed to do everything he could to block the bill on the Senate floor.

Ward said to expect a "long a robust debate" in the Senate.

While several law enforcement officials spoke in opposition to the law, Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale urged lawmakers to pass it. Hale said the requirement to buy a permit is an infringement on the Second Amendment.

Hale also said sheriffs should not depend on pistol permit fees for funding.

"Adequate funding is a responsibility of the county commissions," Hale said. "it's the sheriff's responsibility to request that funding."

Alabama Sheriffs Association President Wally Olson said repealing the permit requirement would handcuff law enforcement in certain instances.

"When we in law enforcement encounter people who may be carrying a weapon we have laws, laws that were passed by legislatures before you, which allow us to be able to take actions when needed," Olson said. "And who knows, these actions may one day save the life of one of your family members.

"If that law enforcement officer doesn't have these laws on the books, and he sees someone who has a weapon, he really has no reason to approach him and talk to him at all if this legislation passes."

Proponents of the bill noted that Alabama law does not prohibit people from openly carrying a holstered pistol. There's no permit requirement for openly carrying.

"Why do I have to have a license to carry a gun under a coat whenever I can take the coat off and carry the gun anyway?" George Owens of Alabama Guns Rights asked. "It's a coat. It's not a disguise. It's not a ski mask."

Eddie Fulmer, president of Bama Carry, said pistol permits are not crime stoppers. Fulmer spoke in support of Allen's bill.

"What we all really know, if we have the courage to admit it, is the fact that no piece of paper will ever stop an evil person from doing an evil deed or committing a crime," Fulmer said.

Anne Leader of Auburn, a member of Moms Demanding Action for Gun Sense in America, said repealing the permit requirement would put communities at risk.

"Our permitting system helps protect Alabama residents, Alabama families and Alabama law enforcement officers," Leader said.

Capt. Michael Salomonsky of the Madison County Sheriff's Department was the last person to speak at the public hearing and urged lawmakers to reject Allen's bill.

He said the permit law is an important tool to potentially prevent crimes and solve others.

"They give us the ability to arrest people who conceal weapons who don't have permits," Salomonsky said. "That's what it does. As a result of that, we have solved homicides. We have solved robberies across this state."

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2017/03/bill_to_repeal_pistol_permit_r.html#incart_2box

He has supported it each time it has come up.

However he only gets $5 for a permit whereas every other sheriff usually gets $20.

He also issues the most permits.

Pelham police chief speaks out against handgun legislative bill

By Briana Harris
Email the author
Published 3:14 pm Wednesday, March 15, 2017

PELHAM – At a town hall meeting at the Pelham Civic Complex on Monday, March 13, Pelham Police Chief Larry Palmer urged city leaders and residents to contact state legislators to speak out against the passing of Senate Bill 24.

If passed by the Alabama Legislature, a permit would no longer be required for a person to conceal carry a handgun and constitutional carry would be the law. Senate Bill 24, which was introduced by Sen. Gerald Allen, R-Tuscaloosa, would allow full concealment of a firearm on one’s person or in a vehicle.

“Alabama should be leading the way on constitutional gun rights,” Allen said in a statement. “More than 10 states across the country already allow their citizens to carry guns without a permit. It’s time we give our citizens the right to bear arms without first seeking the government’s permission. We already allow open carry without a permit, and there is no logical reason for continuing to require a permit for concealed carry.”

The law would also allow handguns to be carried at both peaceful and unpeaceful protests. Alabama currently prohibits handguns at protests. The Senate bill also seeks to remove enhanced punishments for anyone found guilty of committing a violent crime while armed with a pistol.

Palmer said the passage of the bill would require him to sit down and reevaluate the way Pelham Police Department conducts traffic stops.

“It puts the public and police officers at risk,” Palmer said. “I believe in the Second Amendment for law abiding citizens. I’m not trying to take away anybody’s rights. I’m just trying to keep handguns out of the possession of criminals.”

Pistol permits are used by law enforcement to quickly screen an occupant of a vehicle or a person stopped in investigative detention to determine if they are lawfully allowed to possess a handgun.

Although handguns can be obtained illegally, Palmer said every precaution should be taken to try to keep guns out of the hands of those who intend to misuse them.

Those who have been convicted of a violent crime, including domestic violence, are not legally allowed to carry a gun under the current law. Pistol permits are issued after a background check has been conducted on the individual seeking the permit.

Palmer is not alone in speaking out against SB24. Madison County Sheriff Blake Dorning has spoken out against the bill and the Alabaster City Council voted unanimously during a meeting on March 13 to oppose the bill.

“The City Council of the city of Alabaster believes the repeal and amendment of such laws would increase risks to everyday citizens, to police officers, fire personnel and rescue workers carrying out the ordinary duties of their employment by allowing unlicensed and unvetted persons to carry firearms concealed on their persons and in their vehicles,” read the Alabaster City Council resolution.

Ward 5 Alabaster City Council member Russell Bedsole, who is a Shelby County Sheriff’s Office deputy and chairs the council’s public safety committee, said the council opposed SB24 on behalf of the city’s Police Department.

“We don’t want it to be misconstrued that we are against the Second Amendment. We whole-heartedly support the Second Amendment, but we are concerned about the safety of our law enforcement officers,” Bedsole said. “There are certain laws that are designed to protect law enforcement officers when they encounter someone who is carrying a concealed weapon. Those would be stripped away if this bill passes.”

http://www.shelbycountyreporter.com/2017/03/15/pelham-police-chief-speaks-out-against-handgun-legislative-bill/

The irony here is that Pelham Police Officer Philip Davis was murdered by a person with a pistol permit.

Let him know.

Also Alabaster city council got their pecker slapped for posting no firearm signs.

Pistol permit information is not part of the standard LETS program.

There might be some counties that the sheriff deputies or the local 911 might have access to the data base.

I know one time we tried to verify a pistol permit and it could not be done because the office was closed.

Pistol permit information is not tied to the tag or person.

TUSCALOOSA, AL (WBRC) -
A local gun rights group met in Tuscaloosa on Monday night to discuss the status of a bill that would make gun permits optional in the state of Alabama.

BamaCarry Incorporated President Eddie Fulmer said the gun permit bill has made it to the Senate, but there's been one common misconception about this proposed law.

“If this bill passes, everybody will be able to carry a weapon. That is absolutely not true,” said Fulmer.

Senate Bill 24 would apply to folks who don't have a criminal background. Meaning if you don't have a record, this law would allow you to carry a gun without a permit in places like your car.

“The second you step in your vehicle, if you don't have a permit, you become a criminal and that's ridiculous. It's ridiculous $20 is the difference between you being a criminal and not being a criminal,” said gun owner Elizabeth Dyer.

As far as background checks are concerned, BamaCarry said a gun store would still need to run those if you don't have a permit in order to sell you a gun.

“I don't want to be stuck in a situation where somebody can attack me and I'm not able to defend myself,” said Dyer.

The group explains why they think some law enforcement agencies don't like the idea of gun permits.

“This is a cash cow for the sheriff. Some sheriff offices charge $7.50. Other counties charge $20,” said Fulmer.

Tuscaloosa County Sheriff Ron Abernathy said he doesn't support the bill because they are concerned about officer and public safety. They say this is not a money issue for them.

http://www.wbrc.com/story/34958705/bamacarry-receives-pushback-after-hoping-to-make-gun-permits-optional-in-alabama


it's all about the money.

Damn. He out right lies in this statement.


Dear Citizens of Madison County,

My message today is to inform you of an impending Senate Bill in the Alabama Legislature directly threatening the safety for our Law Enforcement Officers and Deputy Sheriffs. It is a threat to law abiding citizens like you and me and a threat to this great state and country.

I am talking about Alabama Senate Bill 24 (SB24) introduced by Senator Gerald Allen. This bill has proposed the repeal of the current Alabama statute that requires a permit, issued by the Sheriff of the county you reside, to allow for the full concealment of a handgun on your person or in a vehicle.

The pistol permit is a tool used by law enforcement to quickly screen an occupant of a vehicle or a person stopped in investigative detention to determine if they are lawfully allowed to possess a concealed handgun. Lacking a permit, the driver or person is in violation of state statute that prohibits concealed weapons. The permit is issued based upon a background investigation conducted by your local Sheriff and verifies the holder has not been convicted of a crime of violence to include domestic violence. The repeal of the current statute will allow everyone who was previously denied a lawful permit to now be able to conceal a handgun in their vehicle to drive or walk freely to attend church services, enter a movie theatre, football stadium, business or other gatherings in our communities.

Alabama law currently prohibits weapons at organized protests. A repeal of the current law by the passing of SB24 will allow handguns to be present at both peaceful and non-peaceful protests. This is especially troublesome and dangerous for protests that espouse hatred. Although protests are protected by the First Amendment, these gatherings will now be attended by persons possessing a handgun hidden from view of law enforcement. SB24 will allow these persons with a past history of violent behavior to do so.

A law enforcement officer cannot stop a person from having a handgun and committing a crime, but every precaution available, to include a background check by your local Sheriff’s Office, should be taken to prevent a person convicted of a crime of violence from hiding a gun on his person and walk freely in our neighborhoods and communities.

I fully support and defend our right to keep and bear arms as written by our Founding Fathers of the Constitution reinforced in the Second Amendment. This proposed legislation of SB24 is an attack on the safety of law enforcement. Let our Police Officers and Deputy Sheriff’s properly do their jobs to keep concealed handguns from persons whose backgrounds include court convictions of previous violent actions where a victim has been assaulted and/or attacked.

Please join me in contacting your local Alabama Legislators and Senators especially Senate Judiciary Committee Senators Arthur Orr and Clay Scofield who represent you in Madison County concerning the ramifications of passing SB24. Please call their offices and write letters and electronic mail to them and let them know you want to keep handguns out of the hands of those convicted of violent crimes.

With your support we can stop the action of SB24. Let us not have this legislative act expose our children, schools, sporting events, houses of worship, and businesses to those with a background of violence. We owe it to our nation to keep our streets safe from predators that prey on the weak and innocent and target our neighbors who cannot defend themselves from those intending to do us harm.

Thank you for your continued support of our agency. May God continue to bless you and your family, the great State of Alabama, and the great United States of America.

Sincerely,

Blake Dorning – Sheriff

Bobby Timmons, he mad.


Timmons took exception that Jim Porter, former National President of the NRA, and Jefferson County Sheriff Mike Hale testified in the Alabama Senate that "a citizen should not have to pay for his/her constitutional right to bear arms." The text of the email suggests that Timmons is a bigger fan of government fees than the rights and privileges of Alabamians. If you want to fish, hunt, drive or marry, Timmons thinks you ought to have a little bureaucracy in your life.

To stir the pot even more, Timmons didn't seem to like Hale using his First Amendment rights either. "The Alabama Sheriffs Association voted openly to be against SB24 and the majority in attendance won," wrote Timmons. "Together, whichever way you voted, should have bonded. What happened?" The clear message from Timmons was that Hale should have kept his mouth shut while the association opposed the bill.

I'm not sure how legislation that deals directly with pistol permits isn't a Second Amendment issue, but I am sure that Timmons's email to Alabama sheriffs wasn't well received when the NRA got wind of it.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/03/shots_fired_between_sheriffs_a.html#incart_river_home

North Dakota just passed Constitutional Carry.

Sponsor defends bill that would remove pistol permit requirement
Lance Griffin
Mar 21, 2017 Updated Mar 21, 2017

The Senate sponsor of a bill that would remove the current permit requirement to carry a concealed handgun defended the bill after some Wiregrass law enforcement heads expressed opposition.

State Sen. Gerald Allen, R-Tuscaloosa, said he believes residents should not be required to jump through a government hoop for something that is granted under an amendment to the Constitution.

“The Second Amendment is the only amendment to the Constitution that requires you to pay a fee in order to exercise that right,” Allen told the Dothan Eagle. He referred to the fee required to obtain a pistol permit.

Some law enforcement agency heads, including the Dale County Sheriff’s Office and Ozark Police Department, oppose the bill. They claim the ability to remove a firearm from a person who does not have a lawful permit to carry is an important tool for officers.

Allen disagreed.

“There is a misconception that this is a negative toward law enforcement. It’s not,” Allen said.

The Alabama Sheriff’s Association opposes the bill, although some individual sheriffs have expressed support for the bill. The association is led by Dale County Sheriff Wally Olson, who expressed opposition to the bill last week.

Alabama residents are currently allowed to openly carry a viewable pistol without a permit. Under current law, a permit is required in order to carry it concealed, such as in a jacket pocket, underneath the beltline or at the bottom of the pants leg, or in a car. Allen’s bill would remove that requirement

Allen’s bill would not completely do away with concealed carry permits. He said gun owners may want a pistol permit in order to travel to other states that recognize Alabama’s concealed carry permit through reciprocal agreements. Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee and some other states honor the Alabama permit.

At least ten states across the country do not require a permit for concealed carry.

Allen’s bill includes restrictions concerning where guns can be carried, including buildings where local governments meet, school sponsored athletic events and others.

The bill has passed a Senate committee vote. Allen believes the bill will pass in the Senate and House.
http://www.dothaneagle.com/news/government/sponsor-defends-bill-that-would-remove-pistol-permit-requirement/article_bb247bd0-0e78-11e7-b259-07c706c5c739.html

Bill may end pistol permits
Published 3:00am Friday, March 24, 2017
The Alabama Senate is considering a bill that would remove the requirement for citizens to purchase a concealed carry permit from their local sheriff’s office.

Supporters say the bill removes a barrier to a Constitutional right while opponents say it could endanger law enforcement officers and take revenue from sheriff’s departments.

Pike County Sheriff Russell Thomas said he can see both sides of the argument, but said his department puts public safety first.

“We’re always going to put public safety first and there’s a lot of concern about individuals being able to carry guns without background checks,” Thomas said.

Local resident Angi Stalnaker, spokesperson for pro-second-amendment organization Bama Carry, said the bill will not affect background checks.

“In Alabama when you purchase a gun, a background check is done at the time of purchase,” Stalnaker said. “This bill would not change that.”

The organization presented data at a public hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee that they say shows no increase in officer deaths by gun violence after permit requirements were removed from a dozen other states.

Eddie Fulmer, president of Bama Carry, said a recent internal email from Bobby Timmons, director of the Alabama Sheriffs Association, shows that the association’s main concern is revenue that the permit fees grenerate.

“The most recent [email] proves that his association’s opposition to the bill has nothing to do with officer safety. His concern is only about the revenue these fees generate,” Fulmer explained.

Sen. Jimmy Holley, R-Troy, said there are two sides to the bill.

“It would necessitate some revenue replacement in several counties,” Holley said.

“Otherwise, it would grant some of our law-abiding citizens that have the constitutional right to carry– it removes one of the things that denies them that right. It’s a little bit of both worlds.”

Holley said he was unsure about how the bill might affect background checks.

No date and time has yet been set for when the bill might get a vote in the Senate.

http://www.troymessenger.com/2017/03/24/bill-may-end-pistol-permits/

The Senate Judiciary Committee recently approved Alabama Senate Bill 24, which would allow anyone to carry a concealed firearm without a permit within state lines. The bill is now moving its way toward the Senate floor to receive full consideration.

According to the bill’s sponsor, Sen. Gerald Allen, R-Lineville, the bill would protect the Second Amendment.

“It provides protection for the Second Amendment that was given to us by our founding fathers,” Allen said. “I’m a gun owner, and I have a permit that I purchased, but this law would make it an optional issue for those who don’t want to purchase a permit as long as they don’t plan on carrying a gun when traveling outside of the state of Alabama.”

Allen argues the passage of SB24 would make carrying a gun for protection easier for out of state travelers because they would not need an Alabama state permit to keep a firearm with them or in their vehicle. He also says the right to carry a firearm should be free.

“We shouldn’t have to pay fees for our constitutional rights,” Allen said. “As a gun owner, I want to protect myself, my family and my property. This law would help people to feel that the second amendment is a privilege given to them from the Constitution.”

The passage of SB24 would bring Alabama in line with 10 other states, including neighboring Mississippi, that already have laws allowing concealed carry without a permit for state residents and non-residents.

“A similar bill has passed in other states, and I think it has been very successful in allowing law abiding citizens who respect the rule of law the opportunity to exercise their rights,” Allen said.

Allen’s version of the bill goes further. It would repeal four other requirements for carrying a pistol, including a provision that prohibits holders from carrying a firearm at an organized protest. It also loosens requirements for carrying firearms near jails, prisons, courthouses and other government facilities.

Although the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 6-3 to approve the bill, it has received mixed reviews from the community. According to Lee County Sheriff Jay Jones, the Sheriffs Association voted almost unanimously opposing the legislation.

“We in law enforcement, and myself personally, are avid supporters of the Second Amendment,” Jones said. “Sometimes we get painted as being anti-Second Amendment because we’re opposed to the bill, but I would propose that it’s not that we’re anti-Second Amendment, we are pro public safety.”

Jones and other Alabama sheriffs agree that the passage of SB24 would increase the risk of gun violence in Alabama.

“It would increase the likelihood of individuals having firearms that shouldn’t have them in the first place,” Jones said. “If they’re going to break the law they’re going to break the law, and I understand that because they do that now, but if we have a law in the books that helps us to deal with that situation, we can when it presents itself.”

If the bill passed, Jones said, that would be one less section of the code that law enforcement officers could apply to those types of individuals who illegally carry firearms.

“With a law that requires a permit to carry a gun, we can find those who are not eligible to receive a permit but are still carrying a gun and make an arrest, remove them from the street and possibly recover stolen firearms and find out about other crimes they may have committed,” Jones said.

Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, a non-partisan, grassroots organization that seeks common sense solutions to gun violence, is also in opposition to the bill. According to Anne Leader, the Alabama chapter leader, the group is choosing to stand with law enforcement.

“At the moment, if you want to carry a concealed weapon, you have to apply for a permit and have a background check run on you, which is a safeguard against getting guns into the hands of dangerous people,” Leader said. “Our sheriffs, who issue permits, have the ability to deny permits to anyone that they think might use the weapon unlawfully or to endanger the lives of themselves or someone else. That’s just another level of protection that would go away if Senate Bill 24 is passed.”

Leader spoke against SB24 at the Senate Judiciary Committee’s public hearing on March 1, and Moms Demand Action members in Auburn have been calling and writing letters to Alabama senators urging them to vote against the bill.

“Until it is voted on in the Senate, we will continue to encourage our senators to stand with the law enforcement and to vote against the bill, and if it does pass the Senate, then we will do the same thing with our House representatives,” Leader said. “Hopefully, if what we’re hearing so far is true, the bill does not have much support in the House because they are more in agreement with the sheriffs and law enforcement, but if it passes the House of Representatives, then we’ll turn to the governor and ask him to veto it.”

Nevertheless, Leader said there is a lot of common ground on the issue of gun regulation and gun safety.

“Eighty-eight percent of Americans and even 80 percent of gun owners don’t want to see permitless carry, which is what Senate Bill 24 would be,” Leader said. “I don’t think anyone actually debates wanting to prevent gun violence, but the gun lobby makes it about taking away everybody’s guns, which is totally not the case. I think it’s just a question of education and letting people know that we are all on the same page.”

http://www.theplainsman.com/article/2017/03/permitless-carry-bill-makes-its-way-through-the-legislature

It was always about the money.

Internal Sheriffs Association email shows that money drives pistol permit law

The battle over SB24 just keeps getting stranger. The legislation introduced by Senator Gerald Allen (R-Tuscaloosa) removes the requirement for Alabamians to obtain a license before carrying a concealed pistol. The Alabama Sheriffs Association doesn't want to change a thing.

Plenty of Alabama's legislators agree that law-abiding Alabamians shouldn't be forced to secure a license and pay a fee to exercise their Second Amendment rights. Twelve states already allow individuals to carry concealed firearms without a permit, and a few of them might surprise you. Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine all have less restrictive concealed carry laws than Alabama.

SB24 pits the NRA, which supports the measure, against the Alabama Sheriff's Association opposing it. Testimony before the Alabama Senate Judiciary Committee led to a heated exchange between Alabama Sheriffs Association Executive Director Bobby Timmons and Jim Porter, former National President of the NRA.

A number of sheriffs have argued that the current law improves safety for law enforcement--a consideration that many legislators and Alabamians take seriously. Streamlining and reducing or eliminating the permit fees across the state makes sense as a potential compromise.

A recent internal email suggests that the Sheriffs Association isn't necessarily negotiating in good faith. An email from Timmons called on sheriffs to contact their legislators "if you value your permit fund." He specifically warned against a compromise that would clearly benefit Alabama's gun owners. "The National Rifle Association WILL return next time the Legislature meets to bring back Jabo [Waggoner's] 'any county bill' and will push for uniform -- one cost -- statewide permit fee...if any fee at all!"

If the Sheriffs Association's opposition was primarily an officer safety issue, the big "push" email didn't make it a direct focal point at all.

The email strongly suggests that money is the primary driver for the sheriff's objection to SB24. Counties must adequately fund law enforcement, but pistol permits shouldn't be the mechanism. If the Alabama Sheriff's Association won't work towards a good faith compromise that ensures a streamlined pistol license that's the same for all Alabamians, legislators ought to move ahead and join the twelve states that don't require concealed pistol licenses at all.

http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/03/internal_sheriffs_association.html

Good.

If SB 24 passed, it would allow citizens to legally carry a concealed firearm or have a loaded firearm in their vehicle without a permit.

“For us, it’s going to be an officer safety and community safety issue,” Sheriff John Shearon said. “There’s not a Republican or Democratic sheriff in the state of Alabama that’s against the Second Amendment, we just don’t think everybody should be able to carry a gun. I’ve denied a couple of the permits because of stuff that they can’t have permits for … violent crimes, felonies, domestic violence and things like that.”

Shearon said he had been to Montgomery to discuss the bill, and felt the majority of other sheriffs disagreed with the bill. The safety issue is his primary concern, but he mentioned the removal of permits would also mean a loss of funding to sheriffs’ offices around the state that could be used for the “betterment of law enforcement.”
http://www.clantonadvertiser.com/2017/04/03/sheriff-disagrees-with-firearm-related-bill/

It's always about the money.